I'm probably an introverted extrovert which would probably surprise most people would
think I'm just an extrovert, but I'm not. I get shy very quickly, I get embarrassed
very quickly. Whether I say something I think is really unfair. I'm dancing with the stars
for instance. I do take myself to task for the numbers of days afterwards often and I
think that might surprise people.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show. A podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep. From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show
you a different side of people who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest
conversations about the things that matter. I don't know about you, but I really crave
connected conversations so I'm going to dig deep to give you a new window into the souls
of the people we're curious to get to know and understand. There might be tears as well
as laughter as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities that make us human.
Showman Todd McKenney has been sparkling on stage since he was a little boy. He's someone
who lights up every room he's in and you can't look away. Todd has built such a diverse
creative career. Dancing, singing, acting as well as starring in musical theatre and
television. I'm lucky enough to call Todd a dear friend even if when we first met he
told me I danced like an ironing board. I caught Todd in between rehearsals for Hairspray
the Musical and I recorded our chat from the dance studio.
I'm beside myself. I mean it's taken quite some time to actually sit down and chat with
you. I had to bring my best razzle dazzle. I'm wearing my sparkly coat for you. I knew
I was talking to you. I've got to have some razzle dazzle.
Of course. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Because you are someone I think no matter what you do, you bring the razzle dazzle.
You are such a showman.
Well, yes. I have kind of been pretty comfortable with being painted with that brush. I think
it started at a very early age. Through Mum's dancing school I was covered in sequins from
as early as I can remember. I've kind of hung on to it. Then of course doing The Boy From
Oz in 1998 that kind of solidified my love of the razzle dazzle.
Well the razzle dazzle and just your star power. What I do want to start talking about
is you as a little boy. You were three when you first started to dance.
Yes, I was. Mum had a dancing school in Perth in a suburb called Morley. She had the Morley
Dance Studio and so I would literally, instead of getting a babysitter really, Mum would
just let me jig up the back of the classes and I never stopped jigging. It was something
I was just always meant to do it I think. I never thought that I would do anything else
and even though I've done other things before I went into professional showbiz but it was
just very natural to me. I was the one of only maybe three boys in a whole dancing school
of 300 students but it never worried me that I was severely outnumbered. I just always
felt natural. I always feel quite blessed actually that my childhood hobby became my
career so seamlessly because I see a lot of friends finish high school and don't have
any idea what they want to do and so I never had that transition period. I never had that
decision to make. As a three-year-old, take me back to that, how did you know that you
could dance? A lot of people think they can but they really can't. I think I've had a
pretty healthy ego from the age of three. It's funny, it's now the total opposite. I
now feel like I don't compete with anybody but back then I always wanted to be the best
in the class so if somebody wanted to do a double turn I always wanted to do a triple
turn or if somebody wanted to do one backflip I wanted to do a back somersault and that
drive has always been in me and even at school I wanted to win the running races, kick the
football the furthest, score the most goals. I've just had that drive throughout my life.
As I get older and more settled in myself I now no longer need to be the winner of everything
but I think all through my childhood from a very early age I just inherently had that
trait. Obviously your mum though must have played a big part in that. I don't know your
mum very well but I've chatted to her over the phone and things and I know she's your
biggest supporter. I've also seen you interviewed where you've described her as such a strong
woman and that she's a stickler for technique. She is. I learned from one of the best dancing
teachers in the world but funnily enough I don't know whether it was because I had natural
ability or whether it was because I was the dancing teacher's child but my lessons were
always left till 10 o'clock at night. It was my costumes that were always getting sewn in the car
on the way to the Stedfords where everybody else's had to be in place a month before but I was always
left to the end and I think it's probably because mum knew I could hack it and you know oh quick
I better give Todd his lesson so at 10 o'clock at night I'm you know putting on the tap shoes
and having my lesson when everyone else is long gone and then mum also wasn't a very
uh she didn't hate praise on me she wasn't a pushy stage mother it was almost the opposite
as I look back in life I think that's because she knew I was handling it but because I was in
the class and because there was a couple of other boys in the class too mum always had the
wisdom to make boys dance like boys and not just try and make them one of the girls in the class
so mum always knew how to do that and that's what stood me in great stead when I entered
the professional realm and where I had to partner females and look like the leading man with female
cast members no matter what your sexuality is I think for the storytelling when you're playing
a character you have to play those characters truthfully and so I always looked like the man
when I was dancing with girls and I think that was a really wise
sort of decision on mum to focus on the boys dancing like boys so we never just did the same
steps as the girls we always did a boys version of it and she became synonymous with that in
Perth and so boys from all other schools you know slowly just filtered into mum's dance school and
she ended up with a lot of boys who have gone on to dance all over the world so she was a really
hard task master she was the boss and she made sure you you know pointed your toes and stretched
your arms and you stood in line as you were supposed to stand in line all stuff that I then
you know went on to use and was there sort of a difference between your mum teaching you and your
mum at home because I think about say with my daughters I would find it very hard to teach them
anything really because they wouldn't take me seriously and they'd laugh at me how was she
able to sort of delineate those roles or didn't she well she did sometimes I think I must have
gone through a terrible time when I was probably about six six to probably nine mum sent me off to
another dancing teacher for exactly that reason I stopped listening to her and just went oh that's
just my mum and so I went to another dancing teacher's school a couple of other dancing
teacher schools so I would listen to them and learn but then from about the age of nine I came
back to mum's and then I was ready to listen to what mummy had to say but even thinking of little
todd as a nine-year-old though being a showman being professional tell me about that I've been
lucky enough to have you teach me to dance and I'm not a great dancer you're not going to bring
that up are you oh of course don't you worry how could I not bring it up but what I want to talk
to you about is nerves when I have attempted to dance I have wanted to vomit beforehand
and literally run away and think one earth did I agree to this did you ever feel like that or for
you was it oh this wonderful self-expression it was the self-expression yes I've never shied away
from a big crowd I think a lot of people have the same fear of you know public speaking or
anytime that you have to get up in public but I've never had that mine's been sort of the opposite
that's sometimes where I feel most at home and I always have there's something about a crowd
clapping and cheering and I don't know that has driven me from a really early age one of my
earliest memories is of a dancing school concert that I would have been five probably
it was me I was the only boy in this class she had 30 girls and in this dancing school concert
mum kept talking about the concert and the audience will be sitting out there but I didn't really
grasp what that actually meant it was all the people will be sitting out there but when you
actually get into the performance and the people are sitting there that I got really really nervous
and I was wearing lime green knickerbockers with a white button-up shirt underneath and I had to
stand in the middle of the stage up the back and then two little girls in lemon and white puffy
dresses with bonnets would walk on leak up on each side of my arms and I would walk them down to the
front of the stage I would unhitch them if you like and they would walk to the ends and I'd go
back up the middle of the next two little girls would come on so that happened 15 times right and
in about I suppose about six or seven of those pairings into the routine I focused on the crowd
and I got nervous and just I wet my pants I went my pants and I remember it I said my lime green
knickerbockers slowly turned dark green with every new set of girls and I remember the audience just
laughing and laughing and laughing and even to this day some of the people that were in that
audience that day they'll bring it up they'll say what about remember that day you wet your pants
and I did and that was nerves that was because of the shock of suddenly looking at all those people
but you know it kind of it brought the house down so I try and do it in every show I do now
I might even do it in hairspray and I cannot wait to see you in hairspray when you tell me that
story my stomach just does somersaults on your behalf obviously it was nerves but the only other
time I get nervous nowadays and it's very rare that I do get what you're describing is when I'm
under rehearsed because I'm a rehearser I love rehearsing I'm talking to you today from the
rehearsal studios but I love rehearsing I love going to the room every day and and fine tuning
stuff and discovering stuff the only time I get nervous now and I hate it I absolutely hate it so
I do know what you're talking about is when I'm under rehearsed yes tell me though more about
that feeling of when you're on stage now it's like being home what is that it is well what I love
about it is particularly in my one-man show so I have a band that I've been working with for the
last decade and in between theater shows or tv things I take my show on the road and we do
regional tours small theater tours in capital cities and I just love that so much because
there's a way of and I use the term lovingly manipulating an audience which really
intrigues me and really makes me thrilled and focused so it's being able to have an audience
make an audience feel what you're feeling make them laugh and then the next minute make them cry
playing with an audience is one of the biggest thrills I ever get and all shows are different
not so much in you know scripted musicals but in my one-man shows every show is different and we
change the songs as we're going along for instance to suit the mood of the audience whether they
might be a more subdued perhaps more conservative older crowd or whether they might be a younger
sort of gung-ho high-vibed crowd we change the show as we go and I also change my chat
as we go to suit the mood of the audience and look it's even the psychology of a performer
and an audience really really interests me and that's on television radio or stage but on stage
it's a great lesson in it's almost group body language if you get an audience for instance
who is it's a Tuesday night it's raining it's cold it's freezing they've booked their tickets
they've come to see Hairspray and they're very very quiet as a cast your instinct is to go hard
and really try and drive them trying to get them to be louder and more vocal and what that tends
to do to an audience is make them sit further back and further back and further back so what
I've learned over the years which I find fascinating with a huge with that number of people 2000 people
is that if you go into their world so if they're quiet I tend to now slow everything down and plant
the dialogue so they hear everything and you just you make you go into their world and then they tend
to then come with you and by the end they're you know jumping on their seats it's really fascinating
oh it is and listening to you describe that it's really about being present in that very moment
isn't it it is it's about being present and it's also about being authentic particularly I think in
the one man style shows or solo performer I think when people buy a ticket to come and see you know
Todd McKinney in you know singing Peter Allen or whatever the show might be at say let's say Crown
in Melbourne that's a 900 seat venue they've paid their money to come and see me and I think they
I think I owe it to them to give them the real guy because otherwise they could just watch me on
YouTube or buy a CD or Spotify or whatever but I think when they've bought their tickets they've
got in the car they've got dressed they've had dinner beforehand grab their friends I think they
deserve to walk away from that experience having learned who Todd is not having the constraints of
a character in a musical but they should get an idea of what I am so I think being authentic on
stage or television or radio particularly I think is the key to a great relationship
with your audience and that's hard to do sometimes but I love that so I love flying by the seat of my
pants I love doing this with you because I don't know what's coming up but it's only sort of
experience I've learned to be really comfortable on stage and again I come back to the playing
with the audience and you're giving them you know the real deal you say that you want the audience to
see you to see the real you to see who Todd is who is that how would you describe yourself
oh gosh I think in all my years no one's ever asked that well I think many things I think
there's different Todd's I mean I couldn't be the Todd that the public are most familiar with which
is the Dancing with the Stars guy I couldn't live him 24 seven because I'd be lynched and it would
be exhausting and so he's a character I call him a character my on stage guy is closer to me but
of course I in my everyday life I don't put on sequence and you know run around singing I Go to
Rio so he's a character as well but in my one-man shows half of the chat is is very real to me I
don't know I'm probably an introverted extrovert which would probably surprise most people would
think I'm just an extrovert but I'm not I get shy very quickly I get embarrassed very quickly
when something goes wrong whether I say something I think is really unfair I'm dancing with the
stars for instance I do take myself to task for days or the numbers of days afterwards often and
I think that might surprise people I think it would surprise people and I think also what would
surprise people is you saying that you're an introverted extrovert I get that because I think
I'm that as well I'm out there but I get my energy when I go home I need downtime to then be that
person yeah I just said to somebody leaving because I'm currently doing Cinderella at the
Regent Theatre before Hairspray starts and I said that to one of the cast members I left with last
night I said isn't this great I love coming to work and I really love going home
oh I hear you I hear you seriously so with that in mind when are you happiest
what is happiest Todd oh when I'm happiest is well in a theatre it makes me very very very happy
because I know and it feels like a big warm cuddle to me but when I'm really really happy is
sitting on the deck of my shack on the Hawkesbury River with my two dogs fishing or kayaking or
not that I kayak on the deck that's obviously in the river
but you could I mean you could literally dance or walk on water Todd so I reckon you could do it
I give it a go I'm really good on my own with my dogs isolated I've got this very isolated
property in the Hawkesbury and that's my happy place that's my go-to place where I just want
to turn off and I can spend a week there on my own without the television on just with either
music or reading or fishing or kayaking or just sitting and staring out at a beautiful river and
that I'm happy with and I'm also you know happy with 2 000 people sitting in front of me in a
musical so I'm kind of I can do both and it means you can do both I think by having that
sort of sustenance away from everyone and then yeah let's talk now about Dancing with the Stars
Todd that's when I first met you and you're gonna bring up the ironing board of course how could I
ever possibly let you live this down dear listeners if you didn't see my turn it was very short on
Dancing with the Stars Todd told me in his beautiful way that I danced like an ironing board
in my own defense your honor that was before I knew you and if I'd know it I was gonna get
to know you and love you as much as I do I would never would have said it to you oh your darling
if I knew I was gonna have to face you in my afterlife I wouldn't have said it no see that's
what I mean that was me I don't know why I did that that was me but that was your role and I
I do remember really clearly when you came to sort of in inverted commas meet us all meet the cast
that you basically introduced yourself and you said please know that I'm now not going to come
and talk to you individually because I can't afford to get to know you otherwise I won't be able
to do what I do on the show that's absolutely true and the hardest part for me or the hardest
people for me to judge on that show were always people who I knew because I had to be myself I
had to say what I thought I knew where I fit it into the scheme of the show to the nuts and bolts
that make up that show I knew what my my role if you were was you know for instance I worked
with Tina arena for a long long time dancing with her and choreographing her we traveled around the
world together I haven't to judge her was really one of the hardest things I've ever had to do
because this may sound stupid too but I in my everyday life I'm not judgmental I'm not a
judgmental person I'm not just saying it I'm not I really love other people having success and
other people trying hard and I love seeing a show that might be a little dusty around the edges that
people are giving it their go and I don't go to the theater for instance and pick it apart I very
rarely you know will come home and bitch about a show I've just seen that's not that great I'll
kind of find the the good in it but you know on Dancing with the Stars and the people listening
to that they would never think that that's a reality but that it really is a reality so
being paid to be judgmental at first was really tricky for me yes but you've rebelled in that
role and then as you have said though you've had many different roles and then I was lucky enough
to do the real dirty dancing with you which some people may have seen and oh my goodness for me
that was excruciating the whole experience of having to sort of shed that was hard and do all
of that so what we did is we took a number of celebrities like yourself up to the Roanoke
Mountains in West Virginia where they shot Dirty Dancing the movie and I it was my job to teach
you all some of the dance routines from the movie and then there was going to be an ultimate winner
to play Baby and Johnny exactly and it was the competition I hate competition anyway
but you signed up for it I know well you know what I signed up for it I suppose perhaps with
what you do too in your life I would much rather say yes to things to grab opportunities with both
hands give it a crack even if it is excruciating and it doesn't work out the way you hope or dream
because I love to learn from people from experiences and I did have such a wonderful time
doing that broadly and getting to know you more and I also remember really clearly having a
beautiful conversation with you along the lines of I was really freaking out during a particular
time and I was really worried about performing and I felt embarrassed and worried about what people
would think because I was going to be dancing in my underwear but you were so kind to me because
I remember you sort of took me aside and you said to me don't overthink this just go through the
motions because I was just thinking oh no what is me you know a 50 plus woman doing on the other
side of the world in her underwear Jess's mental hurdle is that she needs to get out of I'm the
mum I shouldn't be here doing this I shouldn't be wearing skimpy clothes and she really needs to
let that go and embrace the sexiness that that she has I mean she's a bombshell
I think for me why I'm finding it hard is that I'm realizing that there's almost a part of me
that's kind of shut down and being the mum as opposed to the woman but you did really well
thank you you did you were the surprise package of that whole bit well that was what I surprised
myself but what helped me was your words of wisdom and I hope you know that thank you that
means a lot to me I think look the thing is you know I think soon as a lot of people celebrities
when they're asked to get in that arena with me initially just see the guy from Dancing with the
Stars who's judgmental and picky but in that environment for the real dirty dancing in that
environment for the all-new Monty Strip shows that I had to put together for the ladies night
and the men's about men's and women's health again I'm not in the role that people expect me
to be in which is the critical role or the criticizing guy I was there to be your wingman
and make you look as best as you possibly could and so I think it just had a transition period
for all of those shows and your show this one you're talking about the dirty dancing
where you all had to realize I was actually I was on your side and there's no point embarrassing
people you know when they're standing there in their underwear in the West Virginia winter
I needed you to look good and you did well again it was I got to know you too and during that
and and all the celebrities but you particularly because I think you know I think you were the
most vulnerable and you were also somebody who shows your emotions quite easily and I think
we always knew when there was a little bit of trouble brewing for you or a bit of trepidation
and I was very acutely aware of that you know and protecting you I think that's how we became really
good friends yeah most definitely and that did mean so much to me because yeah I do wear my
heart on my sleeve as you said but for me I couldn't live my life any other way
no and I think for someone like me I think I would rather someone who feels confident enough
really to wear their heart on their sleeve because you always know where you stand
and it's I think it's much safer for people to be the sort of person who's prepared to wear the
heart on their sleeve because you're not kind of then locking yourself away and hiding in a
cupboard and you know being one thing in in public and having people not know how you feel
and then hiding away and you know trying to face your demons all you know locked up and I think
I would rather work with people who wear the heart on the sleeves because you know where you stand
and you know what's going on and it's freeing I know for me I spent a lot of my early life thinking
I had to be perfect thinking I had to have it all together all the time and present this certain
image to the wider world but then when I had my experience with postnatal depression although
it was an awful time it was also freeing for me because it took that pressure off my shoulders
that actually I wasn't perfect I wasn't a failure either but I just needed some help
yes and I think for strong people like you and strong people like me having to face those moments
is actually really confronting and you feel like a failure or people are going to laugh at me or I'm
not going to be taken seriously or I'm never going to work again because people are going to
think I've lost my marbles you know it's all of that stuff and I think to finally just realize
that it's actually okay to be vulnerable and have those moments what I've found when I have
those moments is a it shocks the shit out of everybody but when I actually say hey I'm not
doing very well I just need to I need to talk what it does is actually brings people closer to you
I think of course it does because it gives them permission also to say oh you know what I've been
thinking that or I've been feeling that yeah tell me a little bit more about those moments
that you're describing there of well do you know a really weird one which just took me by
absolute surprise which I never ever ever speak about because I just look like an ungrateful
git is when the boy from Oz happened I got plucked out of you know obscurity to a degree and
in my industry and my friendship group and put on this pedestal was in this hit show
as this great loved Australian man Peter Allen and my career just took off and doors opened
you know it was just full on but what came with that which was you'd never really
think about is a level of kind of trauma that you weren't bringing your friends along for the ride
and that really took me by surprise and so whilst I should have been having the time of my life
for a lot of it and this would have been about three four months after we opened
I just thought my friends a lot of them still struggling I was making great money my face was
everywhere I was living my dream and they weren't that was going along still having to do three
four jobs teach dancing at multiple schools to pay the rent all that stuff and here I was
on cloud nine and I had a problem with that and I isolated myself from them because I
felt embarrassed by it and one of my good good friends she said to me you need to go and talk
to somebody and do you know what she noticed she noticed that I was paying for everybody to do
everything so when we go to lunch I'd pay for everything if we go to the bar and have a drink
I'd pay for everything and people were starting to get embarrassed by that and that was only my way
of trying to you know share what I was going through but it was actually driving them further
apart and one of my good good friends she said you need to go and talk to somebody and I did I
went I found this guy and I went and spoke to him for a number of months and he described it as
success trauma and once he started talking to me about it he just opened up all of these other
chats but it was really great that somebody one of my friends said why don't you go and talk to
somebody because we've noticed this you're making us feel uncomfortable because you keep doing this
and I was doing this to try and make them feel comfortable with this cycle and you know and I
don't want to diminish the fact I was having a great time and you know living a dream and stuff
but you know it was also an isolating part of my life and talking to somebody was fantastic
it was exactly what I needed and thank you for sharing that it's so important for people to know
that regardless of what's happening in their lives it is important to reach out and to talk
to someone to get that well it is it is and we used to call this man the fixer so my girlfriend
who put me onto this this guy she said you need to see the fixer and she'd just give me little
nudges and so I would go and I went regularly for a number of months but he told me that it's a very
real thing and it happens a lot and it happens within families and it splits families up and it
happens to people like CEOs or somebody at work who gets a all of a sudden gets a promotion in
front of their colleagues it can be really isolating and alienating so you never know
who's going through what and you never know who's looking like one way one something on the outside
that there's this other undercurrent that is actually working against them and seeing a
third party who's completely impartial I think is a really great way of just
coming to grips with what's going on oh yeah and I love it I tell people I even told my mom I said
mom you she comes from a generation who would never think of seeing a psychologist and I was
like mom go and talk it's the best it's the best you know and it it's just having that not being
judged that person who doesn't you've got no ego in play and I just found myself spewing out just
all this stuff was the most cathartic time of my life in the end but it you know it came from a
really bizarre beginning that how can I not be feeling great when I'm having this success
and as you say too everyone is going through something we never know the stories or loads
that people are carrying now we're almost out of time I do want to speak to you for hours and
hours and hours Todd but I know I can't but I I can't let you go without talking about you as a
dad oh yes tell me yes what fatherhood means for you because I know you're a dad but there might
be a number of people our listeners who aren't familiar with you as a father well look I will
start this part of the conversation but just by saying and I decided a long time well before
Charlotte was born that we would keep her out of the media and we wanted it to be her choice if
and never she wants to have a public persona which I think has always has been the right
decision so a lot of people have taken that as me being some sort of distant father or
you know because I don't have a daughter on instagram with me or any of that but and even
now talking to you I think it's if I'm going to talk about Charlotte I would like her to have the
right to talk for herself and that's been a conscious decision and I think it's the right
decision but yes it's just it's just everything I never never knew it would be one of the things
that I really realized which I didn't know about when you have a kid is how you have the ability
to shape a life in their early years particularly and that comes as a real shock or came as a real
shock to me like oh I actually have to be careful what I say about this when she asks me what's
heaven one day with her friends on my bed what's heaven daddy I was like oh great now I've got to
come up with something but I like you know and just those decisions like you have the ability to
shape this person's life you know from very early age and that was a real eye-opener for me and
Anne has done an incredible job bringing Charlotte up and Charlotte is an amazing kid and very
balanced and very open and and I'm so proud of her and I'm so proud of the work Anne has done as
well so it's um yes I love it we haven't pushed her into any you know um one way or the other
as showbiz goes I mean she does a little bit some pieces of it but she does the school plays and
sings with the school band and all of that but we're just letting her find her own feet and
I couldn't be more proud of her. Oh that's so beautiful can we dance together one day like I
really want to do like a feathery outfit yes with you and yes like you'd be the leading man
and look amazing and do all the hard work you find the function and the frock yes I've got
the tux ready to go and you know all you have to do just when you're in my arms you just need to
relax and I'll steer you around the floor but seriously and you'll be surprised how easy it is
I can do it no more ironing board moves I love you so much Todd thank you so much and
and everybody needs to come and see hairspray oh we will I cannot wait I love you so much yeah
I love you too darling see ya bye how much do I want to wear a sparkly dress and dance the
foxtrot with Todd that is going to be happening dear listeners you just keep an eye out for that
but while you're waiting why not catch Todd performing in the musical hairspray it is on
in Melbourne at the moment and it's going to be making its way to Sydney and Adelaide you are
not going to want to miss this fabulous show for ticketing info head to hairspraymusical.com.au
or use the link that is in our show notes and for more big conversations like this follow the
Jessrow big talk show podcast and while you're there I would love you to leave a big five-star
gold sparkly review or share it with a friend and if you enjoyed this episode with Todd you
might like my chat with guest Natalie Bassing Thwait. There was a time I was ashamed I was
embarrassed I was embarrassed by talking about it I didn't want anyone to think that I was crazy
even though I kind of am which just kind of makes me who I am you know like there was all this fear
and now I don't have that anymore because I feel it's so important for us to start getting real
you know I'm sick of this everything's perfect and I'm amazing and look how fabulous I am it's
like that's great but what else is going on? As well I love all of your comments on my
insta please keep them coming because I'd love to hear from you about the sort of guests that
you'd like to hear from on the Jessrow big talk show. The Jessrow big talk show was presented by
me Jessrow, executive producer Nick McClure, audio producer Nikki Sitch, supervising producer
Sam Cavanagh. Until next time remember to live big life is just too crazy and glorious to waste
time on the stuff that doesn't matter.