I think when you go down really low you get to meet yourself, you get to meet the
rawest, most ugly, most alone version of yourself and from there you are forced
to become your own best friend and so then you emerge again with that
conversation, the kind conversation, the compassionate conversation. There's this
reckoning with what matters because everything seems like bullshit in
comparison. Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast
that skips the small talk and goes big and deep with our most loved
personalities. From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show
you a different side of people who seem to have it all together in these raw and
honest conversations about the things that matter. I don't know about you but
in this time of social isolation I really crave connected conversations so
I'm going to dig deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we
all love and admire. I always cry and have a laugh so you can expect some
tears and laughter as we celebrate the real-life flaws and vulnerabilities that
make us human. In this episode I speak with environmental warrior and
best-selling author Sarah Wilson. Sarah doesn't do things by halves. She lives
minimally, she tricks the world in the same pair of green shorts and is
passionate about making us understand climate change. She doesn't lecture but
explains in her well-researched and lyrical way how we can make a
difference one keep up at a time. I'm a massive fan of yours and have been for
such a long time because what I love about you is you challenge me to be a
better person. Not anymore but I used to love my takeaway coffee cup, I love
online shopping, I still love sugar, I can't quit sugar but you always make me
think about being a better person. Well that's sort of a double-edged sword
Jess because on the one hand I love that you know you're making those wonderful
shifts for the better but also I don't like the idea of being a nagging voice
in your ear. That's a horrible idea. You are not a nagging voice. You are you're
one of those people you've written two extraordinary books that have had a real
impact on me. Your most recent one, This Wild and Precious Life, what really
resonated with me was I used to think I can't do anything so I'll do nothing but
again you made me really think about there is something you can do. Yeah
that's the biggest biggest problem with and to be honest it's got a lot to do
with the way that the environment movement, the climate movement has
operated. It has overwhelmed people with facts and figures and sort of scary
stuff but to be honest it's dialed down because people go oh people can't cope
with the scary stuff so we'll kind of water it down a bit but what the
movement hasn't done is provided a picture of how it can all be achieved
through everyone doing it because they want to do it because it's actually a
more enjoyable charming prospect than the status quo. You know I think in the
environmental movement which is what it's been called has been kind of a bit
miserable and so what I try to do with This Wild and Precious Life is to turn
it into something that's more positive. I'll explain it like this we've got very
prehistoric brains and when we're in a state of crisis we go into overwhelm so
the amygdala shuts down the part of the brain that can make nice sensible
decisions and instead we go into flight or fight or freeze which is the state
you know you're describing you go into a freeze mode it's all too much so I'm
just gonna do nothing and the only way to get out of that is actually to to
invite a better prospect a more enjoyable prospect so I suppose that's
what I've always tried to do for probably the last 20 years and even in
while I was working in media I just tried to make living a more conscious
life sexier than the status quo so wearing you know scrappy old clothes and
hiking instead of shopping and all of that kind of thing I've tried to make it
somehow look sexy and gradually gradually people have gone oh you know I
might give this hiking thing a go I might try wearing something a few more
times before I throw it out that kind of thing and it is it is a really big
issue that we get overwhelmed and so we do nothing and my mantra is just start
and you'll start to feel better about yourself you know action begets action
care begets care and we are a species craving more care and intimacy and
connection and more meaningful conversations and again oh yeah that's
what I think you provoke in people I want to talk about you know you say you
want to make hiking and all those things sexier and cooler because you
have is it just one pair of shorts Sarah I have three in total so I've got a
pair of denim shorts that I've had since I was editor of Cosmo so we're
talking wow yeah yeah no we're talking 13 maybe 13 14 years ago and then I've
got a pair of green shorts I've had 11 years but the elastics just gone on them
so I and then I have a pair of black shorts which I've probably had for 7
years so everything has a story and gets where worn multiple times but yeah
that's right the hiking shorts that have been with me around the world yeah
they've just died do you ever miss that young woman that you were editing Cosmo
that sort of glamorous fashion sort of lighter I suppose in a way less
concerned about the big things in life well you know the thing is is that that
was all smoke and mirrors because I was just as concerned and I was living it
out like I might have been wearing really bright colors and lots of pink
and yellow and everything but it was all secondhand and I rode a bike with my you
know stack at into the ACP offices everyone was turning up in their big
black BMWs and into the car park and I was there you know in my in my shorts
riding my bike and getting changed in the ACP bathrooms so in many ways not
much has changed and the other thing is when I was editor of Cosmo and right up
until this day I've never owned a handbag what I was offered handbags you
know like the various companies would offer me and I just go no no just not
gonna buy into it I saw your stuff in no I've always had satchels like you know
the little satchels when you go to buy a book or whatever and a credit card down
my bra like when you're riding a bike when you run a bike and I still got a
black tie event nobody I would go and park my bike around the corner swap my
shoes around pat my hair down and arrive at some Estee Lauder event and everyone
go oh the editor of Cosmo is here but the thing is you say not much has
changed but a lot has changed because you did really make huge inroads and
steps to change your life I mean I also got so much out of your book now we make
the beast beautiful and you talk about one of your I suppose spiritual
counselors sky and she was talking to you about how just take the leap because
your angel wings will suddenly appear and you're gonna land you're going to be
okay but before you take that leap it is hard isn't it yeah yeah gosh you've got
a good memory so sky she was my therapist when I was at Cosmo and you
might remember that I actually said to a right your job is to make sure I don't
lose the plot that I don't lose my sense of value and what life is meant to be
about and you know make sure I don't get caught up was her brief so it was when
I was leaving Cosmo and I was making the decision to because my values were
really rubbing up against things like it was just becoming increasingly hard and
of course what ended up stopping me in my tracks was an illness and autoimmune
disease but prior to that I was I'm in an area and she said Sarah when you make
a big change in life when you take a big leap into the unknown you have to free
fall you don't know where you're gonna land but you always land in a better
place because you grow these fairy wings that carry you there and I'm like oh my
god fairy wings and then she said you know the problem is we all think that we
can go out and buy the fairy wings first so we want the fairy wings and then we'll
jump into the great unknown and as she said there's no such things a fairy wing
shop you know and that's the truth of it and we were just talking off-air while
we were getting mics set up and so on that the great thing about getting older
is you have enough experiences of that sometimes you're shoved into the unknown
right and you might at the time go what the hell is happening why me and then
afterwards you look at it and you go oh my god thank god for that shot because
I might not have done it otherwise and of course you do land in a better place
even if that better place only comes about because of the growth that you
have to go through in that wrestle in the quagmire in the freefall in the pain
of it all that wrestle with yourself is absolutely key so you're right I've had
to do some big leaps particularly in media so I jumped when I left Cosmo
I jumped when I left MasterChef and it's all for the same reasons my values
were rubbing up against what I was doing in the material world and it just didn't
you know there was lack of congruence it was like a square pegging around hole
and and I tend to I'm very lucky in the sense that if that happens to me I tend
to explode I don't have a choice I explode my way out of a scenario and
I've done it many times and with I quit sugar when I eventually decided I'd made
a commitment I wouldn't get caught up once again and this time I charged my
accountant with it I said right when I've reached a point where I can survive
off a wage which is roughly the minimum income the base wage CPI'd you know
indexed to the age of 94 because I figured 94 said good innings then I wish
to stop and dedicate myself to being of service I don't want to get caught up
and think oh I've got the Camry now I need BMW that I need to let you know
where does that come from though because it that is so selfless and the thing is
I want to do good things but I also want the shiny stuff and I'm not willing to
let go of that where does it come from you that you're able to go no I'm gonna
live on the minimum wage this is what I'm going to do because I want to be of
service how can you do that or where does that come from it comes from doing
that moral wrestle with myself at various junctures it comes from being
and I make no secret of this I have struggled with mental illness and I you
know obviously this is a great forum to talk about it with you because you're
very knowledgeable in this area you know I was diagnosed with bipolar at 21 and
so I've wrestled with that and I've wrestled with suicide on four occasions
and I've made the choice not to die and so it was a decision I made and and I
suppose when you've gone down to those depths you've had to face some stuff and
make some decisions that I don't know a fundamental a fundamental and I have
this little phrase if we lose it all what do we have if we lose the climate if
we lose the climate battle if we whatever it might be what is left and
for me it's work and love that's what I've drilled it down to and so they're
my two pursuits and really everything else pales and once you make those
commitments everything starts to you get a sensitivity to everything else that's
superfluous you know to everything everything feels redundant and it
irritates me so it's almost like that compass has meant that everything else
drops away and it irritates me to the point where I can't go there so yeah
that's probably where it comes to me I mean I grew up with an awareness of
minimalism and that kind of thing I grew up in a subsistence living property only
because mum and dad they were poor you know there was lots of kids and they had
no money and so we just had to live that way but rather than actually swinging out
and becoming a ramp materialist to make up for the loss my brothers and my four
brothers my sister and I we've all become quite well very very minimal we
all ride bikes I don't think amongst there's a handbag yeah I think my
brothers just have a credit card in the back but that's pretty much it maybe not
even that because we don't buy that much but yeah it's just I've refined my sense
of joy and I've had to accept I'm a weirdo that's the other aspect of it
it's not wonderful weirdo Sarah and and I think what you were saying about your
mental health and I think all of us in in different times of our lives sort of
grapple with it that you almost you have to reach your rock bottom until you work
out this is this is my rock bottom I don't want to come back here again so
what can I do to rebuild myself and and I think sometimes rock bottom it doesn't
have to be a negative I know for me when I went through my postnatal depression
that was my absolute rock bottom and I look back at that time and I still feel
sick in the stomach if I start to think too much about it but I'm really
grateful for that because there's no way I would have pushed myself in the way I
have subsequently I wouldn't be as gentle on myself I wouldn't be as gentle
on other people if I hadn't have experienced that and also realizing that
for me my mental health is a constant thing that I have to be mindful of and
look after I take take medication I'm aware of things that might trigger me
which if I hadn't have had that first episode I wouldn't have done that you
bring up the word of you know you've just got to be conscious vigilance and
vigilance is a wonderful thing right because there's so much flaccidity in
life so many nebulous I don't know she'll be right kind of things going on
when you are forced into it something vigilant deliberate I think Brene Brown
uses the word deliberate it's actually wonderful because you fire up you get
online with life right I mean I describe it as a thing to carry a shallow bowl
of water around for the rest of my life I have to stay steady because if I start
to wobble that bowl of water I will start to slosh everywhere and then I
spend my existence going back to the source to fill back up again and that is
a waste of my allotted 94 years on this planet I think when you go down really
low you get to meet yourself you get to meet the rawest most ugly most alone
version of yourself and from there you are forced to become your own best
friend and so then you emerge again with that conversation the kind conversation
as you mentioned the compassionate conversation and so I think there's that
but also there's this reckoning with what matters because everything seems
like bullshit in comparison so for me consuming things it I find myself
getting caught up I tell you when I get caught up I get caught up if I've got to
go and catch a train so I often ride my bike up to the train station I use a
train to get somewhere or whatever and I see the billboards in the train station
I'm like I suddenly go my god maybe I do need a pair of leggings with lace trim
or whatever it might be. I'd like them with leopard print I think. Yes you would and so I go gosh you know I want that want want want want
can't start to happen and of course if you enter a shop and then you start to
see other things then you start like I'm I am blissfully oblivious to the trends
and I don't follow fashion people I'm very careful who I follow online I
follow people who bring me joy and if I feel this grimy cringy feeling when I
come across their feed I just unfollow them and if I figure that they're going
to be somebody who might be a bit sensitive to that I just mute them. Good
advice I like that. Because some people get hurt you know I personally wouldn't
but I understand if other people do what I accept that other people do so we have
to do that we have to surround ourselves with the right profits. And tell me
though you talk about working out what matters and I really wondered what
matters to you right now. Okay so Eric Fromm is this wonderful poet but also a
nuclear physicist he talked about well he sort of he's a philosopher who wrote
about things in the nuclear age so the 1960s and 70s and he reduced things down
to make your life a study in work and love so that's where I got that idea
from it's a study in work and love so I study it so work for me is applying
myself to being a service and that's not all doom and gloom and self-flagellation
it's actually a lot of fun because when you do that you're surrounded by people
who are true creatives so I work with the wildest like little millennial
graffiti artists and indigenous people doing really cool poetry because they're
the people who are also at this level you know so the climate movement I go to
where people I can feel everyone's angst and hurt and pain bubbling so I don't
necessarily go right my next book is going to be about this it's more of an
emergence like I get so upset by other people's pain in an area that that's I
just go down rabbit holes I want to find the thing that can help people that can
steer humanity to a better to a better outcome and so I go down rabbit holes
and it takes me three years I do that and then and then the other thing is the
love thing I've been single a very long time I think you know so 13 14 years so
that aspect of things ain't working for me so that's why I started fostering I've
been fostering for three years and I made the decision sort of made the
decision not to have children to be honest and yeah fostering is just the
most beautiful experience and so I've got a little one with me now he's full
time with me and she's I mean she just she surprises me every day the joy she
brings me and so I've I study in work and love my study in love is about
exploring types of love that go beyond standard protocols of marriage a partner
you know like there's all kinds of love I have a love of nature as well and
that's another study let's talk about I suppose those different studies but also
the reality of it so first of all love love in relationships would you say
you're frightened of falling in love of having a long-term enduring relationship
now at this point in your life no no I mean yes I'm scared but I love being
scared so no I love challenge if somebody wants to scare me into a date
I'm like all for it I just I'm the yes person no it's if that's not the problem
Jess not that I have a line of men lining up outside my front door it's a
peculiar time in history to be a woman with strong opinions to be a woman who
doesn't apologize for who she is and and a woman who's you know financially
I don't need a man right I want a man in my life I'd love a love you know life
partner the other thing is Jess as you get older I mean hopefully you partner
with somebody you're in a relationship with somebody who actually encourages
you to have a better life than you did before if you're going backwards and
that's not a good sign so as your life gets better and my life has got better
as I've got older it just does my bar has got higher not because I'm fussier
it's just because my life is a little bit awesome and richer and more full of
character and whatever and so it does become more difficult and I find I've
generally found love overseas in other cultures and that's why really I lived
on the road for eight years in Australia I do find it quite difficult I find if
I'm gonna be really honest I find that the Australian culture is not wholly
respectful of strong women we kind of get in the way we kind of get in the way
of the view of the surf you know and so you'd intimidate I mean the thing is
your intellect is searing and I love the way you intimidate because that
challenges me but I think for a lot of blokes and I don't know generalized but
I will Aussie blokes would find that threatening and they'd be like oh I don't
know what to say or do to which I say and I mean you know what men used to
fight wars and they used to fend off wildebeest and we're cut out for
challenge and so I sort of you know I've had a lot of people tell me that and
it's very kind of you to say it in such a respectful way but yeah I kind of go
and just come and meet me you know and I don't and my friends laugh because they
go your standards are not exacting Sarah like I I don't expect them to you know
like I don't have a criteria apart from a pulse in their own teeth I think the
point that you make about it's got to bring something to your life is such a
good one because I know when I was younger I used to think I needed to be
in a relationship because that was what mattered and I couldn't be on my own and
it wasn't until I felt comfortable in my own skin and happy with who I was that I
was ready to meet the right person and to be in a relationship that that
brought out the best of me but also enabled me to be my crazy self and and
still keep evolving and I think that's the tricky part that's the hard part it
is it is it is and I could say well maybe I haven't done the work to evolve
into who I am I think this is about as me as I'm gonna get so much work I mean
I think you've done enormous amounts of work and where you are so generous too
in your books you've shared a lot of that work that you have done that I think
helps so many people me included to look at the way we lead our lives and how we
manage things because you also mentioned in there about love and how you have
this this beautiful foster child now in your life and you shared with with us in
your books your journey initially to become a mum and the incredible emotion
and angst that that brought I mean I've read so much about those different times
in your life Sarah and it made me weep.
Oh thank you. I sort of don't get emotional about my own stuff but when
people show me their emotion back to it I go oh yeah and then I'll get emotional
because in the time and those moments you're just trying to find this dirty
path through it I think also yeah I think I often go through those parts of
my journey on my own in far-fung parts of the universe you know and so it
probably adds to it right and do you think you do that deliberately that you
remove yourself to get through it hmm it's been a big part of my bipolar is
that when I start to feel things ramp up I exit the country and it's really just
it's me trying to spare the people around me you know so I just hit the
road and I go through it on my own and work myself out and then come home it's
sort of been my way but of course with COVID I've been stuck here I've been it's
been the longest I've been in this apartment now three years it's the
longest I've lived anywhere since I left home at 17 so yeah that's been good have
you found that that's been a good thing because I know sometimes when people are
very strong they find it hard to ask for help and and you sort of feel that you
have to do it yourself so as you say you would remove yourself overseas now
you're forced to be home has that been in a strange way a good thing that
you've been able to count on people more well it's a bit like what we were saying
before about you know sometimes you and I have had a few shoves into the unknown
right and it can actually be wonderful with a highly strong kind of a types and
I relish it so to be rendered choiceless is a freedom it's the ultimate freedom
so in many ways I quite love it it's like well I'm stuck here I mean we've
got COVID coming and going restrictions coming and going my entire career is in
a state of freefall I've got a tour I've got all these different projects going
on and they're determined by border closures but yeah I suppose the whole
idea of being somebody who's strong or has complexities asking for help it is
a really tricky one because it's not just about you can ask for it but people
still don't hear it unless you radiate some sort of vulnerability and I've had
to accept I'm not very good at that and so rather than try to become the
vulnerable person I trust that the right people will see my vulnerability and I
also trust that my strength is still something that's worth just being in
rather than being the person who fine-tunes how to ask for help you know
what I mean so I can actually reach out to people but they still don't hear it
it's like I'm talking another language and it's kind of like Jess somebody
once did this thing where they did an analysis of my name and what gets
googled when people search and it's so interesting if you want to get really
narcissistic go and do it afterwards right just go and see what comes up
right net worth number of divorces whatever it might be and husband and
boyfriend never comes up for me and I meet people who assume just I'm just
married with kids they've never looked into it I don't radiate something that
says that's important to people you know it's interesting isn't it um so I don't
too much importance on it and thankfully my love of nature my my love of humanity
not always humans humans really annoy me at times but humanity it's as great a
love as you know it's a love that I'm able to extend outwards and it is
transformative I think that sort of love because in in your most recent book you
talk about how we need to connect reconnect with nature and I think about
when I was a little girl my dad used to drag me and my sisters to go bushwalking
in the Blue Mountains I hated it I had to camping I was and and I think I was
just being a typical tween and then teenager going I don't want to do this
well but again after reading your book I thought come on let's try and get back
into this wild world and you are so right I took my youngest daughter for a
bushwalk just in our sort of down the road from where we live and we found
ourselves hugging this giant gum tree and it was so precious and and the power
of that very simple thing it is profound it is and the science backs it you know
there's about 40,000 studies that have been done to show the power of nature on
on the human experience you know fractals in our eyes in our retinas
recognize the fractals the patiny in nature and we get a sense of congruence
and that triggers certain hormones in parts of our brain that give us a sense
of belonging and oneness you know there's all kinds of stuff to that effect
and it's not woo-woo there's some really tangible physics behind it and biology
so yeah I just say to people I often get asked what's your favorite bushwalk and
I'm like the next one I've never had a bad one you can't have a bad hike right
because you just get out there and the process of walking the process of being
in nature it does its job you don't you don't have to mind map it you don't have
to go is this working it just works you're so right and I even I mean not
that I'm doing the full-on bushwalks that you're doing clambering over
massive rocks and all of those sorts of things just walking to the end of our
street with our new puppy dog and there's these lovely gum trees at the
end of the street and there's all these magpies that hang out there and I love
greeting them each morning because I'd heard somewhere that I think magpies can
identify 10 or 20 faces so I love that idea that these magpies know me and my
daughters and dog and just those simple things again it is extraordinary how
grounding that is and and I've got you to thank for that oh that's it well
that's lovely to hear that is really nice to hear because that's what you do
I think never underestimate the power of your words and and the stories that you
share because it has such such an impact on people because another thing that
again struck me with your most recent book because I'm a big person for
kindness I think we need to be kind and being kind is has been underrated for
too long and you probably can pronounce this better than me but you write about
this wonderful is it philotimo the the Greek concept of big kindness can you
explain explain that to our listeners because I just I think it's such a
wonderful way to think about leading our lives it's awesome it's pronounced
philotomos and it's a radical respect for kindness is roughly how it
translates and it's kind of embedded into the Greek mentality what it is it's
kind of like it's this idea that you give kindness to in particular a
stranger so that's the concept of behind it is that you always welcome a
stranger into your home you will help a stranger if you see them in the street
in some kind of trouble or whatever anyone who's been to Greece will know
that that's the case you look slightly perplexed for a moment and about five
Greeks suddenly are in front of you wanting to help you you know and then
they'll actually walk with you the three blocks to take you to the bakery or
whatever so yeah it's a particularly Greek thing and it's I interviewed a
whole lot of people in Greece about it and they just said ah it's not a big
deal this is what we get taught and I do see it in action but it's this idea that
not that you'll get something from it it's this idea that you've already
received that kind of kindness and you now need to pay it forward so it's not
like you do it expecting something it's the other way around you know and I
think that's the lovely aspect of it is there's this kind of implicit gratitude
that you've experienced incredible kindness and so you've almost got to
purge it out into the universe again and what we have left is an outward
connecting with other humans and once you get rid of the shame and the
awkwardness around that by just doing it it is a wonderful way to live I can't
imagine any and I'm a I'm a very you know me I'm quite a reserved person I
sort of do things a little bit you know it closed and I'm not a gushy kind of
you know flamboyant person but I have learned how to just reach out now
before we go though there's two things that I really would like to ask you and
one of them again from your most recent book is that you talk about in there
about and I love this particular quote you say humanity suffers by not having
conversations about the hard things the stuff that we despair about and takes us
to our lonely edge now I want to know from you what is your lonely edge what
are those hard things for you yeah that's an awesome question Jess my
lonely edge is oh it's it's all those quandaries about whether I I'm enough I
also despair about what's gonna happen to the planet I despair that I will
reach my end of my 94 years and I won't have done everything I can and also yeah
my lonely edge is love it's the love intimacy piece so that's that they're
probably my love everyone's lonely edge is different right it's the hard stuff
it's the stuff that you know how I describe it when you get home from a
loud party everyone's been rah rah rah and you've had one or two drinks and you
get home and it's that horrible glare of the bathroom and you're looking in
the mirror and you're just going oh god this is me this is this is this is it
this is me is this what's it it's about and that's your lonely edge it's the
stuff that you think about when you're slightly tipsy and you get home and it's
all a bit grim and you go what what is what is there so yeah for me it would be
those two things yeah and that's why I write books to be able to have
conversation I literally write books so I can have conversations like this one
with you that is why I do what I do it's a very very selfish pursuit Jess it's
not altruistic at all it's not a selfish pursuit because it is a way of having I
think those big conversations and and the other thing that I wanted to ask you
and this is in your book and I and I love it because we so often have glib
chats with people we see people we pass them how are you yeah great fine blah
blah we don't listen but you have something in your book where you say how
is the state of your heart in this breath hmm yeah it's it's the Farsi or
Persian version of how are you and it just says so much more doesn't it it
asks so much more it gives so much more so it's how is the state of your heart
how is your soul your very entity the sense of yourself right now in this
moment that we're sharing together and as soon as you ask the question the
person who answers it has to get mindful you render them choiceless you
know which is a gift and they have to then answer the question with a little
something more than oh busy flat out you know it's a beautiful question thanks
for reminding me of it so what's your answer how's the state of my heart in
this breath I'm heightened I'm on full alert I am aware of my
responsibilities I feel sad I I feel landed I feel arrived though I feel like
I am exactly where I'm meant to be and that includes not having control of
things because right now I don't know whether this tour I'm doing I'm going on
a national tour to talk about these things around Australia and I don't know
if it's gonna be called off so I mean a very I mean that freefall stage but it
means that I'm on I'm vibrant but I'm also in my I'm at my edge I'm at my
lonely edge just to bring all the pieces together
well thank you so much Sarah for sharing so much of you with us and through your
beautiful books and for challenging us all to be better and it's a real joy to
talk with you oh I've loved this chat thank you Jess thank you beautiful
Sarah makes me want to be a better person but she does tolerate my love of
violet crumbles and obsession about the reality show below deck if you enjoyed
this conversation with Sarah please share it with a friend or take a moment
to rate and review to find out more about Sarah's books and her blog visit
Sarah Wilson calm and listen to her podcast wild at listener next week I
speak to Stephanie rice about her champion mindset and coming to terms
with life after the Olympics at 24 thinking like I've already peaked in not
just swimming like in life that was like a really shit feeling like I just was
like well what's the point like not that I was I would have said I was depressed
without necessarily getting tested or checked or whatever but it was kind of
like this feeling of just emptiness and loneliness and like also just lost the
Jess Rowe big talk show was presented by me Jess Rowe audio producer Chris Marsh
executive producer Nick McClure supervising producer Sam Kavanagh until
next time remember to live big life is just too crazy and glorious to waste
time on the stuff that doesn't matter listener