I just thought that if I chose to react to it in a way that was negative, I would have
been lying to myself because I think in my head I had already really wanted the relationship
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
I don't know about you, but in this time of social isolation, I really crave connected
conversations so I'm going to dig deep to give you a new window into the souls of the
people we're curious to get to know and understand.
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities
Po Ling Yao is a creative soul.
She cooks, paints and has been a make-up artist and graphic designer.
Po first came to our attention on the first MasterChef Australia show, but there's far
more to her than mixing up delicious creations on the telly.
I spoke to Po from her art studio with a giant painting and a bird in the background,
so you might hear some bird song in our interview.
Hooray, Po, how exciting, I'm talking to you.
You're clearly in your studio and so we can explain to our listeners, you have the most
incredible portrait behind you.
Tell us about that beautiful portrait.
Oh, yeah, so she's the girl that I paint all the time.
So part of my income and career is I'm a painter and that's what I did before I went on MasterChef.
So yeah, I still paint a lot and yes, she's my girl, I don't really have a name for her.
She's just, I guess I use her to tell my stories.
So I wonder then if that girl that you paint is possibly called Po?
I don't really like to call her Po because she takes on lots of different forms.
She's not, I mean, she has this distinct look, but she can look a bit different.
And I guess it's almost like I use her as a device to tell my story.
So she's kind of, rather than me, she's kind of my, she's autobiographical.
Yeah, I don't know how else to put it.
Another thing that I was reading about you, I actually saw it on one of your Instagram
stories was this dear photo of you as a very young little girl.
And you said in that particular caption that you were trapped in a shell of shy.
Yeah, very, very shy kid.
And then when we came to Australia, I don't know if it got worse.
It's just that school is so much more, you know, there's a lot more participation.
So I think just the fact that there was so much more focus on the individual and,
you know, I felt physically very different.
I was never, don't get me wrong.
I was never teased at school or anything like that.
It was just more a self-imposed kind of feeling of, oh, I look and feel really different.
But I had that in Malaysia as well.
So I think I've always felt a little bit beamed in from somewhere else.
I've always felt a little bit on the outer.
I think that sort of loneliness is what fuels a lot of the creativity.
So would you describe yourself then when you're a little girl as lonely or just shy?
Probably a bit of both.
Yeah, I think they both kind of fit into each other.
I remember being a teenager always just, I was quite obsessed with American movies
and the notion of being popular because I just saw that as such a value, you know,
and was just never that kid.
I was just always the kind of loner and I wasn't disliked, but I wasn't popular.
I was just kind of always on the outskirts.
But isn't it ironic that now you find yourself in one of your strings to your bow.
You are incredibly popular.
You were a runner-up in the very first MasterChef and people just adore you.
So do you find that bizarre?
I do find it bizarre.
And maybe it's something that, yeah, you never know.
I'm a great believer in, do you believe in fate?
When I think about what is it that I actually believe in, I don't believe in a god,
but I think I believe in a goddess and I believe in a force for good and a spirit.
And I do also believe that things do happen for a reason.
So I'm agnostic, which is pretty much what you've described.
I think it's, I feel like there is a force out there.
I felt like I've always felt very protected and guided,
like I've, because I felt like I've been quite,
I've kind of missed and magooed my way here.
I still like that cartoon.
So I've always felt like something's always been
kind of just pushing me along in the right direction because I've always
only done things that I've enjoyed and that's my only guide that I've had.
And I always have gone with my gut.
And I think it's because I haven't had a lot of friends.
I've always had to like kind of rely on a very small group of people that I know
and that are very dear to me.
And then it's just me.
And so, yeah, it is really strange that I've landed here.
But having said that, even when I was very shy, there is,
I don't know whether it's genetic because my dad was a muso in his heyday.
And I don't know whether a bit of that attention seeking gene
or the love of performing rather has come from him.
Because I did used to jump on the little like proof thing
and do a bit of John Denver's Country Road once in a while.
And I would do little things like that, but in a very safe environment.
So there was something of a performer in me,
but I never let it sort of be revealed at all in any public way.
And then in high school, I got into drama because I was trying to overcome my shyness.
I just thought this is becoming so debilitating.
I need to do something about be proactive about it.
So I took like private speech and drama classes
and this kind of love of performing really came out then.
But again, it was always very restricted into that.
Having said that, I know so many performers, actors and particularly comedians,
people that work in the entertainment industry that are actually introverts.
I think there's something to that.
What do you think?
I'm with you because I think there's a whole lot of performers,
people who get their fuel and their energy from an audience,
but that is in a controlled way.
But then they are very shy as people.
You know, I think about my best friend, Denise Drysdale, and she-
Oh, she's gorgeous.
And she loves an audience, loves a laugh, is silly, all of that.
But take her to a party.
She won't come to a party because she doesn't enjoy or want to talk to people.
She's sort of almost too shy in that way.
And her way of breaking through is, okay, I'll carry around the chicken sandwiches
or the sausage rolls.
I love going to the kitchen and helping.
I have to have something.
And it's the same with even when I'm performing.
This new role that I've got with snack masters was just so intimidating to me.
Because if I'm doing something and imparting knowledge or whatever,
and my hands are busy, I'm totally fine with it.
But if I have to just stand there and hold space, just standing,
that's quite horrifying for me.
I think you do it so well, though.
And like anything, it's sort of practice.
And that sense of faking it till you make it sometimes.
Totally, totally.
Yeah, that's all I've done.
But you've done so well.
And something else that I find fascinating, and I wasn't aware of this
when I was doing some research about you and your amazing career and life,
but when you signed up for MasterChef,
that you didn't really cook Asian food and it wasn't your thing?
And in that first audition, I cooked this dish that the judges hated.
And they said, what's with this dish?
And I was like, I don't know.
I just was trying not to be a stereotype.
I didn't want to be an Asian person cooking an Asian dish.
And they're like, why would you go against the flow?
And I was like, I don't know.
I didn't want to be a stereotype.
So anyway, I said I was going to cook this dish,
which is a dish from my mom's side of the family,
a Hakka dish called abacus beads.
It's kind of like a taro gnocchi.
And I legged it home, had all the ingredients,
and they gave me a second shot.
And that's how I got through.
It was like 11 o'clock at night when I was racing around my mom's house.
And I got last apron.
So these are the abacus beads.
It's made out of fresh yam.
That is singly the best dish we've had.
That's the sort of dish that I really hoped
that we'd find in this competition.
Would I be correct in saying that you said
that you almost had a bit of cultural guilt
during that time as well?
Because for you, you just identified
as you, as po-human, not po-a girl from Malaysia
who immigrated with her family.
I was going through this stage because I was 35 at the time.
And food had suddenly, I thought, oh, man,
this is like the only thing that I feel like I can legitimately hang on to
because language is so mangled now.
Like I speak horrible Cantonese, which isn't even any of my mother tongues
because mom's Hakka, dad's Hokkien.
And Cantonese is the only common dialect that they speak.
And so we got raised with Cantonese.
But since coming to Australia, there weren't as many migrants when I was a kid.
So all my friends were Aussie.
So language is gone.
The Valley, my Valley is very Australian, very Aussie, very Westernized.
And at the time, I was still thinking about having kids.
And so I was like, what do I have to hand on if I have kids?
Like, and food, I thought it's going to be food because I love food.
I have this very easy, authentic connection with it.
And I went home to Malaysia for a big family reunion once.
I remember watching my grandfather looking completely devoured
because all the grandkids can't speak Chinese,
so he can't really communicate properly to any of us.
But then we got together and just had this meal together.
And that was the language that held currency in that regard.
So I was like, food is going to be my thing.
And so just before I went on MasterChef was when I started to become
interested in learning these dishes.
But it's hard when you're learning from that age if you haven't been observant
because that's how you learn the dishes.
It's just all by look, feel, guesstimate.
It's not with recipes.
And so I had to just learn from scratch again.
That was just scouring through cookbooks and then cooking them for mom
and mom being a royal taste tester.
And her saying, no, no, no, you've got too much turmeric
and too little cumin or whatever and adjusting that way.
So it's really funny.
A lot of my dishes don't really taste like mom's
because it's kind of my version of it.
And so food became that thing.
And I was going through that when I was on MasterChef in that first season.
I was unaware as well that previously you went by the name
that you were given at birth, which was Sharon.
So I was given it at birth.
But then at age 24, I found out it wasn't on my birth certificate.
And my husband, Matt, said,
hey, I've always felt really weird calling you Sharon.
Why don't you go back to your Chinese name?
I was like, oh, I can't like not now because it was just when I started painting.
And I thought everyone's going to think I'm being so pretentious.
And he's like, let's try it.
And he is a filmmaker and he was broken up since.
But he won this really a big short film prize at the time
that I acted and did all sorts of things on art direction and stuff like that.
And so we got quite a lot of local press at the time.
And after that, he said her name is Po.
And he actually named the film Po Ling.
And then in the credits, Po Ling paid by Po Ling.
So that's how Po started.
And after that, everyone that knew me from that industry just called me Po.
And then he said, let's just do it now.
And I was like, okay, let's try it.
And then everyone just latched onto it really easily.
So that's how that happened.
And then I just ditched Shaza.
You're definitely more of a Po, I think.
Now, you mentioned there, Matt, you talk about love.
And I know for you, you've had an intriguing love life.
You were married to Matt.
But then he got together with your best friend.
I love that because I think it's so grown up.
I couldn't imagine being able to do that with any of my exes.
We had a very formative time together.
So he was 27 and I was 24.
And we met in the Mormon church.
And the reason why we had such a strong friendship was because we found solace
in being able to talk philosophically and discuss freely our philosophical issues
with being in the church.
There weren't many people around that we could do that with.
So we used to just have hours and hours of conversation about this.
And so we broke out of the church together.
And then he started film studies and I encouraged him to do that.
And then he encouraged me to paint.
And so we've got this really strong symbiosis, our creativity,
that I could never imagine abandoning just because our marriage didn't work.
And I think having no kids really helps as well.
I think that allows that break to be really clean and adult.
I think kids are definitely all sorts of instincts, I guess, come into play
that are really difficult to manage when new partners come into play
and all that kind of stuff.
So I credit some of that to the simplicity of that break, that it's very clean.
But also, yeah, I credit so much of the things that I do now
were from him just pushing me all the time philosophically.
He's got quite a bombastic personality that is also what broke us.
But it's just I've learned over time as I've gotten older
that life is just full of these paradoxes.
And that if he hadn't had that sort of personality,
I would have just stayed in church and not wanting to upset my parents
and probably just ended up doing something quite really sensible
like went into graphic designing instead of visual arts.
And when they got together, everyone always asks,
oh, how could you not have an issue with that?
Matt and I were already in a really not a great spot.
And we didn't know how to break up.
And it was almost like a gift to me.
And we were sort of living like almost like housemates
for at least three years, not knowing how to manage the situation
and just that obligation to family and their expectations and stuff.
I actually was pretty cool with it.
Yeah, I don't know how to explain it.
I just thought that if I chose to react to it in a way that was negative,
I would have been lying to myself because I think in my head,
I had already really wanted the relationship to end.
I just processed it in a really sensible way.
I thought I would be pretending to hang on to something
that I actually didn't want is how I understood it.
I think you've explained it in a beautiful way.
And I think as well, earlier we spoke about fate.
And I do believe that often people come into our lives
at certain times when they're meant to.
And then they also leave our lives at certain times
that it sounds very much like you and Matt grew up together.
He taught you so much.
But then it was time for you to go along your direction
and he headed off on his direction.
Yeah, absolutely.
And we've been each other's greatest enablers, I think as well,
because he still writes and we have lots.
We've got tons of projects now.
And I'm about to go into a really interesting time
in my career, I think,
because I'm starting to want to be back of stage a little bit.
And we've got a few projects where I want to enable him now
because he's actually my manager as well.
So he's really taken my career to a really amazing level,
like my TV and film, because he only manages me.
So he's done that for me for the last few years as well.
And now I feel like I want to do that for him.
So it's just been this really nice sort of tag team situation
and we talk to each other every day.
Yeah, it's a really very precious relationship
that I have in my life.
And one that's changed.
And I think for all of us,
we almost need to recognize that relationships
do change in your life and that's okay.
We don't have to hold on to things
that might have served us well in the past
when in fact you don't need to keep staying
in that sort of stagnant way of being.
I think with marriage breakups,
if you're willing to allow it transform,
it can actually turn into something even more beautiful,
I feel, because when you don't have that angst of obligation,
that obligation of having to stay together
and make things work,
you can actually see the things that were faults
in your eyes, the things that annoyed you,
they become charming again.
And it's a really nice feeling of being able to,
the feeling of not wanting to change them.
And you can live apart and just see them
completely for who they are.
And I think also when you've been through so much
with someone and you are willing to work,
have been willing to work through it,
it transforms into something that is completely unbreakable.
Like nothing can break us.
Like we are so volatile to each other all the time
because we've just got that familiarity
and we just know we're like permanent fixtures
in each other's lives.
And it allows for such intense honesty
to happen with our interactions
that is completely unique.
And you can only have that when you lived
within each other's pockets and destroyed each other
and then rebuilt that again.
and I hope you don't mind me asking you about this as well,
because I know that you've recently slid up from Jono.
Yes, no, no, no, I don't mind at all.
So straight after MasterChef, I came home to that,
which was a bit tough.
But again, I'm so happy for Jono.
He's like moved on, got a new partner.
And again, we have managed to preserve
a really lovely friendship.
And I've even called him for dating advice
because I always like to like the truth.
I'll be like, you know that thing that I do,
And he'll be like, yeah, it's this, this and this.
So it's really good for reality checks.
Yeah, I really, yeah.
So again, like have two beautiful ex-husbands
that I still absolutely adore.
Oh, and again, that is such an evolved way, Po,
I think of looking at it and thinking about it.
But what about your doggies though?
Did you share the two dogs together?
How do you manage that?
He was so kind because knowing that I work alone so much,
it really broke his heart.
And in fact, he has trouble coming to the house
just because there's so much of him here
that he left behind that he built with his own hands.
And also the dogs, but he's got two new little dogs now,
so I think he's okay.
But yeah, he left the doggos to me,
which is really, really kind of him.
I love getting older.
And I know you've said you're creeping towards 50.
How do you feel getting older?
You've spoken about how there's a part of you
that feels sort of almost otherworldly and alien in a way
that you sit outside and watch.
Do you feel like you're still out there
or are you becoming more and more sort of into the world,
Yeah, I think I'm becoming more into the world.
But I am loving it.
I love feeling it's taken me so long.
And I think it's a scourge that a lot of women suffer from.
It's just feeling comfortable in your own skin.
I think it's taken me so long to get here.
And isn't it ironic that it's when it's starting to deteriorate
that you start to like it?
You take it for granted less?
And I think that's so freeing.
I mean, I'm open, though.
I like to do little bits to make myself feel refreshed.
But it's because I make that decision as opposed to feeling
that society is forcing me to be that particular way.
No, that's a really good conversation to have.
I think there's a lot of it that's going really far the other way.
But I find it really interesting when I do a beauty post on Insta.
I get a lot of support for it.
But then I'll get this small percentage that speak to me
as if that as a close to 50-year-old woman,
I need them to give me advice on how I value myself
because I just want to look my best.
And I shouldn't feel like they're going the other way.
They're telling me that, oh, you look perfectly good without makeup.
Actually, I don't.
Can I just say I really don't look perfectly good without makeup?
I don't feel great without makeup.
And I think that's completely fine to say that
and say that a little bit makes you feel better.
I think it makes you feel great about yourself
and just gives you that little pep in your step.
I think fantastic.
Po, you are fantastic.
You make me feel good in terms of being a crap housewife.
I love your recipes for coconut ice.
I have such a sweet tooth.
If you could just leave us with what your perhaps favorite dessert is.
Leave us on a lovely high sweet sugar high.
Okay, my favorite dessert, and it's been since I was a kid,
is creme caramel.
It's just not changed unfailingly.
I could eat a serving for 12 people myself over the space of a couple days.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Next time I'm in Adelaide,
I'd love to join you in a creme caramel session, please.
I would love to have you as a guest.
Actually, you have to come to Jamface because I'll definitely hook you up.
Oh, I would love that.
Po, thank you so much.
Really appreciate your time today.
It's such a pleasure.
You're so beautiful to talk to.
You know, I have such a sweet tooth and I just love that idea of sitting down
and having creme caramels with Po.
I am there the minute I can get to Adelaide.
You know, another thing that struck me about our conversation is how open Po is.
She's so curious about the wider world
and the way that she embraced the change of her relationships.
You know, for many of us, when a relationship breaks down,
it can be life shattering.
For her, it was life altering and life enhancing.
So I think there is so much that we can learn from the way Po approaches her life.
For more beautiful, big conversations like this,
search the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
And while you're there, I'd love you to follow me.
Add me to your favorites because I never, ever want you to miss an episode.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe,
executive producer, Nick McClure,
audio producer, Nicky Sitch, supervising producer, Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.