There was a time where I was ashamed, I was embarrassed, I was embarrassed by talking
I didn't want anyone to think that I was crazy, even though I kind of am, which just kind
of makes me who I am.
There was all this fear and now I don't have that anymore because I feel it's so important
for us to start getting real.
You know, I'm sick of this, everything's perfect and I'm amazing and look how fabulous
It's like, that's great.
But what else is going on?
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
I don't know about you, but I really crave connected conversations, so I'm going to
dig deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we're curious to get
to know and understand.
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities
that make us human.
Performer and singer Natalie Bassingthwaite has worn many different hats over her long
She sings, dances, acts, she's a rock star, performs in musical theatre and she's a TV
I don't know about you, but I feel exhausted already just going through that list.
And Nat has been open about the toll that that heavy workload has put on her over the
Now I wanted to learn from Nat about how she's got to a much happier place in her life.
Oh, Nat, it is the best to be talking with you because whenever I've met you over the
years, you are just so full of energy and vibrancy and I always marvel at that.
Where does that come from?
I was about to say the same thing to you.
I think we're the same.
I think I've always been out there.
Like, I've always been like this.
I'm not sure where it comes from, Mum and Dad.
I mean, you do your musical theatre, your acting, your TV hosting, you're a rock star,
all of these things and you have to have a drive to do well at all of those things.
I mean, we're not just talking one thing, you do all of them.
I've never been afraid of trying stuff because you just never know what you might be good
You just don't know.
You just give it a crack or you might be terrible at it, right?
So one of the best things I've learned in the last or since I've had kids, my daughter's
only 12 years, I was a terrible cook and I was terrified of cooking.
I actually did ready steady cook once and I was terrified.
Like, it was the most horrific thing I've ever done.
You know, make doughnuts from scratch.
What do you mean make doughnuts from scratch?
That's like I'm going to have a heart attack.
Anyway, so I didn't know how to cook.
And my friend said to me, what's the worst that can happen?
Just cook and if it tastes terrible, order pizza.
What's the worst that can happen?
It can suck. It doesn't work out.
You fall over. You pick yourself back up and have another go.
You give a lot of things a crack and I think you're good at all of them.
Well, yes, I'm not not at the beginning.
Sometimes it takes a little bit of like, I remember.
So you think you can dance and I was in L.A.
at the time auditioning for acting roles.
And someone says, oh, there's a show.
We think you'd be good at hosting.
I'm like, hosting? No, no.
And I was terrified.
And I did an audition over there and I was terrible.
The only thing I was good at, like I was terrible
with the auto queue.
I was like, oh, I felt.
And they're like, welcome to and I was like, no, I can't.
But I was good at the people thing.
Like I was good at connecting the dancers.
And I think I'm quite empathetic.
So I really get where they're coming from.
So that felt good to me.
But when I started the show and it was live, I was, you know, auto queuing it.
And I wasn't I wasn't very good, but I slowly got better.
Tonight, we find out who will be Australia's favorite dancer for 2009.
And the competition is still on.
Don't forget that.
Tonight, your top four will perform two more times for your votes
before we close the voting lines.
So there's plenty more time for you to pick up the phone and vote for your favorite.
I'm OK to fail publicly.
Lucky they kept me on because if they kept me on after the first two shows,
yeah, I probably should have gone after the first two shows, to be honest.
I think that's a really good lesson for people, though, to hear,
because often people might look at someone like you and think, oh, she can do it all.
She knows what she's doing.
It all looks effortless and easy.
But that's not always the case, is it?
Like, there are some things that you fall in line with a bit more
and some things that are easier.
But for the most part, everything's been challenging.
But I don't mind a challenge.
I know a lot of people find challenges very scary, hence the name.
But I don't know, I just I just feel like life's here to be lived
and we may as well live it to its fullest.
And you have and your most recent work
that you're doing is this fabulous show on the ABC called Space 22.
Essentially, the essence, isn't it, that it's a way of people
using art and creativity to heal themselves, to find themselves again.
It's challenging the notion that we only need
medication to help ourselves through our mental ill journey.
I myself have been through quite the journey over the last 20 something years,
as, you know, like so many of us.
You're like, yeah, and I feel like I've come out the other side
and I still go down sometimes.
But for the most part, I've come out the other side
and I've got my toolbox of things that work for me.
They work for me in heightened situations.
And then some things work for me just daily.
But not a lot of people know that there are things that you can help
with your mental ill health.
So, you know, I still take medication.
I'm not ashamed of that.
There was a time I was ashamed. I was embarrassed.
I was embarrassed by talking about it.
I didn't want anyone to think that I was crazy, even though I kind of am,
which is kind of makes me who I am.
There was all this fear.
And now I don't have that anymore because I feel it's so important
for us to start getting real.
You know, I'm sick of this.
Everything's perfect and I'm amazing.
And look how fabulous I am.
It's like, that's great.
But what else is going on like social media?
I'm like, I'm feeling down about myself by looking at this perfect life.
Everyone's looking. I still look.
But now my feed is like positive quotes and like I still follow some of the others.
But like it's I try and feed my brain with more positive things
and people who are real and going through stuff that I can learn from
more. I don't know.
I just I got really frustrated with this notion that life is perfect
and everyone's amazing. And I don't want to live like that.
And my life isn't like that.
And I don't want my daughter to think that that's real.
And my son to go, oh, well, everyone else has all these things.
Right. It's not real.
I'm a huge believer in that as well.
I love to embrace my imperfection and my vulnerability and my mess and my chaos.
And I think for you, what's been so wonderful for people is, you know,
you talk about being more honest and open.
And I think it's very freeing, isn't it?
You've been open about your your mental health and the fact that, as you say,
you take medication, I take medication as well.
And it's been so good for me.
Yeah. For me, it's been such a long time, which is I feel
this is what I was really embarrassed about, like whether you don't need it.
And I've tried to go off it a few times.
It doesn't work for me to go off it.
It just doesn't. But I don't just like it for me.
It's really important to balance that with all the other things.
Like, I don't think it's a quick fix.
You take a tablet and you'll be fine.
It's not how it works.
So people go, do you take a tablet and you don't feel you don't cry?
And I'm like, oh, no, I still cry.
I still get like, whoa, you know, like all the things still happen.
But it's just not as painful, I guess.
It's not as challenging when the times are hard.
It's not as hard, so hard.
But I support that with other things like I meditate now,
which I never thought I could meditate.
But I learned that over the last four years.
I make sure that I if I'm starting to feel that thing, I get outside
and I take my shoes off and put my feet on the grass.
My girlfriend is like, you've got to ground your body like your body needs
some grounding right now.
You know, so I do that.
And exercise is really important to me.
I mean, when I feed myself, it's important.
And the balance is important.
Like there's so many times in my life when I've tried to take on too much.
And that's something that I'm very aware of now that I just need.
I need enough time with my family.
I need enough time for work.
And I need enough time to exercise and meditate.
That's not negotiable.
Like I have to fit it all in.
So you talk about meditation.
That's part of your toolbox.
I want to hear more about that.
I'm someone I like the idea of meditation,
but I can never be still enough to do it.
Well, that's what I think.
Yes. How do you incorporate it in your life?
I agree. I was never still enough.
I think the thing that I learned is that don't look at it as meditation,
because then it totally freaks you out and you think I can't do it.
Just think of it as taking a minute for yourself, five minutes to yourself,
to just be in the moment.
So I guess it's mindfulness, right?
It's whether it's art therapy, like whether it's painting,
whether it's going for a walk on the beach,
whether it's writing or listening to music.
You're taking a moment for yourself.
And that in itself is meditating.
But I can actually switch off and go into like a zone or whatever.
I don't sit there like this, you know, like with my hands up in the cross
like a position. I'm too old for that.
My body hurts. I just lay down.
I think not putting, yeah, putting the pressure on yourself.
And it takes time. Like it took me about, honestly,
I don't know if I did it every day, but I tried to do every day, six months,
just listening to some stuff.
And I kept listening and I kept listening.
And I was like, I still can't concentrate.
And then eventually it's that neuroplasticity of our brains.
We do something for a month. What is it?
Twenty seven days or whatever. Everything starts to shift.
And then now I can do it anywhere. Anyhow, from the on the plane,
I can lay down, I can like, if I'm feeling overwhelmed,
I'm like, I need to meditate and I can just get in the zone.
So it's I think it's the best tool that I've given myself,
what my friend gave to me, really,
that I would recommend and stick with it, because once you've got it,
it's like riding a bike that takes a bit to get it.
And it doesn't cost anything, does it?
It's free. You don't need to bring equipment.
You can do it as you say, wherever.
Wherever, wherever, whenever.
And it can help in the most stressful of situations.
You know, it's the same as breathing.
I think I stopped breathing for about five years there for a moment.
I was just terrible.
And so the anxiety was right up to my chin, you know, and I just shallow,
you know, shallow breathing for so long.
But I couldn't sing. I couldn't be present.
Now, tell me about that.
You couldn't sing because for someone like you, who, I mean,
you're an extraordinary singer, that must have been really
almost soul destroying not to be able to sing.
It's kind of weird because it didn't just happen overnight.
I think it just kind of kept creeping in and I didn't realise what was happening.
Or I would go off medication and be like, I'm so fine.
I don't need anything.
And then I would slowly come to the crash again.
Not being able to sing was weird.
I mean, I remember doing a performance at our next actor and I was backstage
and I was just like, and I don't get like this anymore.
Like, I don't panic about I love singing.
I could sing about 100,000 people and be like, wow, you know.
But I just was in this hole and I was backstage going,
I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I want to go on.
And then it was the terrible, the worst performance.
I came back and I said, that was the worst.
Singing her latest single, All We Have.
Please welcome to the X Factor stage, Natalie Bassink-Waite.
It's just so overwhelming.
And it wasn't fun that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.
I don't want to be in this space anymore.
It's like, if it's not fun, why am I doing it?
And I didn't know that it was probably more to do with my mental health
than not being able to sing because I can sing.
I just couldn't sing.
Nothing wanted to come out because I wasn't breathing properly.
And I was panicking and freaked out all the time.
And our mind, we forget sometimes how powerful our mind is
and how that can really lead everything.
Yeah, that's why feeding our minds with such deliciousness
is really important.
Like, you know, even with my kids now,
their heads are so full of like disaster and disease and floods.
And, you know, my little boy is like so empathetic.
And he's just so overwhelmed with life and not being OK.
That, like, I started buying him these little cards.
And, you know, you wake up and you go, OK, I'm picking cards today.
We're going to pick and you just get a little bit of positivity,
a little bit of flavor of something.
Or, you know, he's now going to Art Berwick as well, finally enough,
maybe from the show, just to help him navigate what all this is about.
It's fear, fear upon fear upon fear upon fear upon fear.
Whereas we didn't have that.
I mean, the poor thing has probably has it for me, let's be honest.
But so the world is.
Is bizarre right now.
It's like nothing that I ever thought it would be.
And it's paralyzing.
I think the thing with fear is it stops you from being brave.
It stops you from doing things that actually fill your cup
and fill the cup of people around us.
It stops you from being you or being the best you that you can be,
because you don't even know who that is anymore.
You don't recognize that person anymore.
That's the scariest part when you like can't even look at yourself.
You know, you know that.
I mean, you know, it's the whole internal thing of like
one day I woke up and I was like, no one likes me.
I can't sing. I can't dance.
I'm a terrible actress.
And it was just everything was negative.
I don't want to have a meeting.
I don't want to have to.
I had to in the thick of one of my breakdowns is auditioned for something.
I couldn't even get out of bed, but I was like, I have to.
I need this job like any, you know, and I got myself dressed.
But I was like a robot, but a broken robot.
So it was like I was on autopilot, but yet nothing happened inside.
And like, I quite like auditioning generally.
And, you know, you get to play.
But this particular day, like I couldn't remember the lines.
I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry. I was a shadow of myself because nothing made sense.
Look, it's terrifying, my life.
So how do you get yourself out of that?
How how can you move forward?
Because I think from your beautiful openness, it helps so many other people
who might be at a point in their lives now where they're feeling paralysed
or thinking all these things I thought I could once do
or that I was good at, I can't do any more.
How do you keep going?
I mean, look, it really helps to have a support network.
And I know not everyone has that.
So, like you say, it does help when other people speak up,
because if you don't have loved ones that can help you, then you go, oh,
I didn't know that. So first of all, you have to want to do it.
No one can make you do it.
You have to say, I don't want to feel like this anymore.
And if you say that first, I think that's the biggest step you can take.
I remember after the breakdown that I had, I said to myself,
I think I need to go back because I accidentally went off my medication
for a week and went, oh, my God, I'm fine. Life is so good.
Why do I need it? And then I went off for ages.
But then I slowly started going, oh, I better get some herbs or I better get.
And I started all these therapies.
Next thing you know, I'm taking like 20 tablets to try and make my brain
feel as good as the one little tablet I was taking six months ago.
But it clearly didn't work for me.
I'd be completely unraveled and trying to do all these other healing things.
They didn't work.
I went to the doctors and I said, I need to go back on the medication.
But I was fragile.
I was so shaky and, you know, and so that was the start.
But I don't know about you, but when I first took medication,
it was terrifying because it felt really scary for about four weeks.
Your body is trying to adjust to the different things going on.
And I thought, is this it?
Is this what's going to fit, what it's going to feel like?
I know friends who didn't feel that, but I was it was terrifying.
So anyway, I went through that for weeks of the medication adjusting
and just everything stopped.
Like I couldn't work.
I couldn't no matter what happened.
If I listened to my body months before, it would be way better
because I needed to kind of get my brain in a positive enough space
to be able to do the next stage of the work.
Otherwise, it wasn't going to work because it was just negative,
negative, negative, negative, negative.
And then, look, I tried different things.
Like I think not everything will work for everybody.
I tried kinesiology. I tried Reiki. I tried therapy.
I tried acupuncture.
I did retreat. Like I just like I was like, well, fix me.
Can I just congratulate you for giving it like your career?
You're giving all of these therapies a good crack.
Well, you never know.
I might have gone, what was that?
That was terrible.
And look, you know, some things didn't work for me.
But I think by trying them, I really opened my eyes
and my mind to anything's possible.
And what's good for me might not be good for you.
And what's good for you might not be good for me.
That's what I experienced throughout it.
So in the end, like I meditate, I exercise.
I didn't realize art could be a therapy until I did Space 22.
So I was quite surprised.
And I'm definitely a believer after that.
You just get immersed in what you're doing,
because one of them was a project about, you know, some memories and stuff.
And I went back there and you just smile like your whole body starts,
you know, it's triggers.
And that's another thing I think we need to be aware of,
is our body on a cellular level holds on to trauma.
So what I've been learning over the last five years is you need to work on that.
And whether that is a therapist or a group situation or art therapy
or whatever, you need to find your thing for that thing.
So it's just it's literally not giving up.
Yeah. And finding, as you've said, to what works for you
and going for it, because I think many of us live half lives.
We're frightened to be as happy as we possibly can.
We're frightened to make change, because change is scary
to how we live our lives, to really live as full a life as possible.
Yeah. I mean, sometimes I wonder whether we are addicted to drama
or addicted to feeling terrible.
I don't know why I say that, but it feels like something I need to say.
I don't think I am, but maybe we are, because
it gets you attention, especially young people these days.
Yeah, like I would like to think that.
Kids have more options
than to feel that way, than to feel like they
need to be down, because some people need love.
And the only way to be loved sometimes is if you're not getting it
by being fabulous, then you get it from being the alternative.
I definitely don't think this is me.
I had a great childhood and all of that.
So that doesn't feel like me, but I feel like it's a thing.
I want to talk more about
the sort of person that you are.
And I was struck by in the show you were talking about in Space 22
about the thousands of different faces that you wear
and that in one of the episodes, you had this clown face
with this permanent smile on it.
And I think a lot of us do wear masks.
And I think for someone like you in the creative sphere,
you do wear this mask.
Is that exhausting?
Have you learned to drop that mask at times?
It's so frighteningly exhausting when you're just exhausted.
It's just exhausting.
But when when you're in that space, which can come and go
whenever it likes to rear its ugly head, it's really hard.
And I think by talking about all this stuff, it allows people to go,
oh, I don't have to be OK all the time.
It's OK not to be OK.
It's OK not to be perfect.
You're allowed to say, yeah, I'm actually not feeling good.
But in our job, you got to keep on keeping on with our big smiley face.
And I get that, too.
And there's a time and a place.
But I think if there's more conversation around the other as well, then
it can only be better from there.
And I think I know for me, too, that it's OK not to be OK
And that's been a huge learning for me.
I used to feel, especially as a younger girl,
and because of my mum's mental illness, my mum's got bipolar.
I used to think I always had to wear a mask.
I always had to be cheerful and upbeat, because if I was like that,
I could help everyone around me.
And it's been a lifetime's worth of work to get to this point, to actually go.
I don't always have to be like that.
And especially when it comes to being a mum to my daughters.
That's been a struggle, too.
And I'm much better at actually at times being like, you know what?
I am cranky about this or whatever.
I don't always have to be the sunny, upbeat one in a bubbly.
Yeah. For me, earlier on, it was like a fear that if I wasn't that
or if I was so extreme, like the reality was that I was crazy
and that I was not great and that no one would hire me.
And then, you know, people would judge me.
And now I'm like, I am a bit cuckoo and I love it.
Like, this is me, warts and all, highs and lows, all the things in between,
you know, and I think I was worried.
What if I cry at a thing?
Doesn't mean you're like completely bonkers sometimes.
Do you know what I mean?
I'm like, it is what it is.
It is. This is me in warts and all.
Like, not that I have warts.
Let's just chuck that out now.
This is what you get.
And it's, yeah, and I like it.
I'm starting to like it.
And I know as well, to me, it's also about getting older
and I care less about what other people think.
I still care a bit and I wish I could share more of that.
But as I get older, because I'm more comfortable with who I am,
I like myself more.
I'm still working on the loving myself,
because I must feel like in an Aussie way,
you can't be too like that.
You have to sort of be self-deprecating.
It would be good to be a bit more loving of ourselves.
Thank you. Right. Like, oh, my gosh, my body and everything
has changed so much in the last five years.
And sometimes it's like, well, that's hard to look at.
And but I'm not 20. I'm not 30.
I've had two kids.
I'm happy. Like, you know, yeah, don't get me wrong.
It's hard sometimes, but I'm trying to be like, it's all good.
Like, how good is life?
You've spoken a lot about meditation
and those other things that you do for yourself.
Are there any other self-care things that work for you?
I know I talk about self-care and the things I need to do,
but I never do enough of it.
I still put myself last too often.
I'm really good at it now.
I think there was a time where I wasn't.
I said to my husband, he needs to do more self-care.
I probably do too much now.
So what do you do?
You know, if I'm not well, it doesn't work.
Like, I'm not a good mother.
I'm not a good wife.
I'm not a good friend if I'm not well.
So I, you know, I am in a selfish way, the priority.
Like I did this health retreat four years ago,
around the same time as all that drama.
And who as a mother can go away for four days? No one.
I felt so guilty about it.
And every other woman there was like, I couldn't afford it.
I can't spend this money on myself.
And I can't spend this time with any kids.
But you need to do it because I think you need to have time.
You need to make time for friends.
You need to make time just as a couple.
You need to make time with your kids.
And it's all doable.
It is, because I used to get told, you need to meditate.
And I was like, I don't have time.
They're like, get up 10 minutes earlier.
I'm like, I don't have time.
It's like, well, get up 10, now, you know,
it's just whatever you prioritise, you can do it.
I genuinely believe that.
I've got to take a leaf out of your book then.
I've got to maybe get up that 10 minutes earlier
or carve out the time.
I talk about it, but I don't do it enough.
You have to make yourself the priority
because if you don't, nothing else works.
It doesn't mean like, I'm going to go away for five days
every two weeks with my girlfriends and have the best time.
Like, I'm not going to do it.
That'd be nice though.
Oh, do you love that?
I mean, I've been talking about this
with my girlfriends for two years.
So I still haven't done that,
but COVID's thrown such a spanner in the works
So priorities are different, clearly,
but I make sure that I exercise.
I try and do something most days.
You know, if I need to meditate, I go,
I'm going to go meditate.
I'm like, in a moment, like this has to take priority
and then I'm going to come back and I'm going to be so much
calmer and I'm going to love you all so much more.
It's just, it's knowing when you need it
and taking it when that moment happens.
And embracing it.
Because I know with me, I used to define who I was
through the jobs I did.
And I found it very difficult to separate that.
If I wasn't working, if I didn't have a good job,
I felt worthless.
How do you feel about that?
Are you still that way inclined or getting better at it?
I'm definitely better at it.
Like I've had the last few weeks off and I'm ready to work.
I'm ready to sink my teeth into something
and it's just around the corner.
So I know something there.
So I'm not like freaked out about not having something.
But there's definitely been times in my life
where it has defined me and like without it, who am I?
Which is when, you know, my manager passed of 16 years
and he was like my best friend, my mentor.
Like, you know, if he was straight,
we'd probably be together.
You know, he was my everything at the time.
And he just died and it was really sudden.
And I felt like I didn't know who I was at all.
I thought, I can't sing, I can't dance, I can't act.
I'm a terrible host.
And then that slippery slope happened again
where I was like, who am I without any of this?
You know, but again, through those horrible times,
you know, my girlfriend calls it breakdown to breakthrough.
As you go and dive into the depths, you know,
and figure out who you are eventually.
I mean, I took on, I think I went to the,
did you ever do the jungle?
So the jungle crime.
I did that in South Africa.
But I was like, what are we doing doing this kind of shit?
Like I was just like, what is this?
But that, even though I really didn't want to do it
and then I did do it
and then I got so much out of it in the end.
Am I strapped in properly?
Please look after me.
I can't do it, just wait, please just wait.
I'd never do it again.
But I came out wanting different things for our life.
It's a family unit.
I didn't want to live the life that we were living.
You didn't want it to be as fast paced.
You didn't want to have the stresses.
Didn't want to have the overload.
I mean, after that and the breakdown
and the death of my manager,
and then my friend committed suicide,
like it was all a lot.
It was like, this is enough.
The breakdown happened, start to slowly heal.
And then I got rid of everything
that no longer served me.
So I had a business at the time.
I was like, I didn't need that anymore.
But my ego wanted to hold onto it
because I was like, then it'll look like I failed.
And I thought, I don't care.
I just don't care enough about it anymore.
And it doesn't define me.
I need to get rid of it.
So we just got rid of it.
We sold our pubs, we got rid of that.
We moved house and we live in Byron now.
And we just have a calm resistance.
It's just, so sometimes it's baldy.
Sometimes I think you have to go,
I don't want that anymore.
I don't want that life anymore.
Well, what are you gonna do to change it?
What are you gonna do?
You can't keep complaining about the same things.
You just keep doing the same things.
Big believer in that.
And being brave, being brave to take that leap of faith
and to make those changes.
Do you think that that comes also
with being gentler on yourself?
Because you did mention, oh, in a couple of weeks,
you know there's this job coming up, so that's good.
Is there a bit less of that pressure on you
or does that still drive you?
I think there's less of that pressure
because we got rid of all of the other pressures
that were mentally, physically, emotionally
and financially stressful.
It was like, just get away and start fresh.
And there is no stress.
Like we are in a very fortunate position
that if there wasn't work for another little bit, we're fine.
I just really like working.
I like delving into a project and whatever.
Don't get me wrong, we can't live forever without working.
But we've got a little bit of leeway
because we made some changes in our life
that aren't as top heavy and it feels good.
It feels like stripped back.
And at the time it felt horrific
and it felt like I was a failure
and it felt like I wasn't, again, I wasn't good
and I wasn't talented and I was terrible at all the things.
And it just took me a little bit longer of holding on.
And eventually said, I have to let go, let it go.
And I bet too, by letting it go, not only are you happier
but I bet your kids and your partner
noticed a real shift too.
I mean, you'd have to ask them
that I remember spending so much time not happy.
Like this heaviness and part of it was grief.
That was just like, I fell into a heap
and then I picked myself up and almost a year to the day
when my manager passed, my friend committed suicide
and then I fell in a heap and I picked myself up
and just buried, buried, buried, buried, buried
all these emotions.
So I hadn't really dealt with them.
And then I just, you just can't keep going like that.
Again, on a cellular level, there's pain in your organs.
There's fear and sadness and knowing that
at any given moment you can always be triggered by something.
It's not like gone.
And if you think that you do something and it's gone
I don't know, I think you're probably full.
Like it will always rear its ugly head
but knowing that that's the case
makes it a little bit easier going,
okay, it's just a stepping stone.
I know what's happening.
This is how I can manage this as opposed to it
then making you collapse yet again.
Yeah, going, oh, this is triggering me
in ways that doesn't feel right.
What am I gonna do about it?
And the first step for me could be a little meditation
or it could be going for a walk on the beach.
I now swim in the ocean, which I never did.
Like I was like not a beach girl.
And now I'm like, get me to the beach, you know?
And that's soulful and cathartic and cleansing.
And then that thing happens and then you go,
oh, my body's reacting in ways that I remember I don't like.
It's not trying to get rid of it.
That's the thing as well.
I think you should get rid of those things.
It's just acknowledging and going, thank you.
And no, I'm not gonna make the same mistake.
You're not gonna get me this time.
And perhaps too, you might get a tattoo
or a few tattoos like what you've done.
I've got a few tattoos and I'm ready to get two more.
I was supposed to get them during COVID,
but the borders were closed.
And yeah, so my tattoos that I was supposed to get,
one was surrender and the other one
is a little forgiveness symbol.
So I'll be doing those very soon.
But I've got quite a few now.
There are a little.
That idea of forgiveness, I think, is very powerful.
I mean, forgiveness for ourselves
and forgiveness for others.
I did this wonderful show called
Who Do You Think You Are a few years ago?
And I woke up the night before and I was really nervous.
Like, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen?
And I wrote down forgiveness.
Is it mine or is it yours?
Or is it someone else or is it part of our ancestry?
And I figured out that it's all three,
through that process, I went, wow, I need to forgive myself.
I need to forgive my mom.
I need to forgive her.
And in learning about my history,
there was so much of that that they needed to do as well.
So it's a big one.
And what about surrender?
Surrender, I think, came out of the last breakdown.
You know, I used to be a really big control freak
and I still like things a certain way as a Virgo,
but I think I'm a bit better at understanding
that you're not in control.
Like, you're just not.
And if things are not meant to work out, they won't.
And that the universe or God or whatever that is for you,
it's like, I think it, they, the universe has your back,
even when it doesn't feel like it.
And I think it ends up kind of weaving into,
you've got this road and you kind of might go down
all these different paths and always get to the place
you're meant to, just surrendering to the outcome
because you may as well.
You may as well, you know what, I just love you, Nat.
You may as well, you give things a crack and you meditate.
That's, I'm gonna do all of those things now.
That's just weird.
Can I get your abs?
Can you tell me how I get your abs?
That's what I wanna know.
Pilates, but you know what?
Genes, genetics, it's that kind of thing, you know?
Mine are pretty good, mine are pretty good,
but after kids, it's, everyone's like,
you should wear a tube piece.
I'm like, hell no.
I tell you what, I'll give you my abs
if you give me your voice, cause I wanna sing.
You can have my voice when I'm in a good head space.
It's a deal, banana peel.
Nat Bass, thank you so much.
You are such a sparkling star in our universe
and I love your honesty, your vulnerability
and your openness and the way you've shared.
It's not only helped me,
but it will help so many people
listening to our conversation.
You're a darling.
Beautiful, right back at ya.
How amazing is Nat Bass?
Even saying Nat Bass, it's so cool with a capital C.
I got so much out of talking with Nat.
The thing that really struck me though,
was when she was talking about times
when she didn't feel enough,
when she felt she was hopeless at what she did.
She couldn't sing, she couldn't act,
she couldn't do any of it.
To me, that was reassuring
because of course she can do all of those things.
Why it was reassuring is that I know for me,
there've been times in my life
when I've questioned how good I am,
that I'm hopeless, that I can't do things.
But I think she has some really good strategies
and tools for getting through those times
for actually thinking, yes, you can do it.
How we can believe in ourselves
and how we can embrace how truly wonderful we all are.
Now Nat is the host of Space 22,
ABC's thought provoking series on mental health.
You can catch it on Tuesdays on ABC TV
and ABC Eye View from Tuesday the 17th of May.
I've loved it, it is really worth a watch.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe.
Executive producer, Nick McClure.
Audio producer, Nicky Sitch.
Supervising producer, Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious
to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.