A LISTENER PRODUCTION
Having that understanding just allowed me to be more purposeful in how my relationships unfolded
as opposed to just being carried along on this what sometimes felt like volatile and like
emotional craziness where like there would be huge amazing highs and then crazy lows and
I always felt like I was a passenger in my relationship and now I'm in the driving seat
and that's really empowering.
Hi I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show a podcast that skips the small talk
and goes big and deep from love to loss and everything in between. I want to show you a
different side of people who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations
about the things that matter. I don't know about you but I really crave connected conversations
so I'm going to dig deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we're curious to get
to know and understand. There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real life
flaws and vulnerabilities that make us human. Laura Byrne and Brittany Hockley are best friends who
also happen to host Australia's biggest female fronted podcast. They're now authors with their
fabulous self-help book We Love Love, an unfiltered A to Z of modern romance and self-love.
The pair first bonded sharing their experiences after being contestants on separate seasons of
The Bachelor and that supportive friendship blossomed into an incredibly successful media
partnership and I wanted to talk with these strong and smart women about how they've become such a
force. Congratulations on your book. Thank you. Thank you Jess. That actually genuinely means a
lot. Oh I loved it. There's so much that's in there but what comes through to me in spades
is love. Obviously love is in the title but the love that you have for one another.
Why do you love each other so much? We spend so much time together. Like Britt and I,
we spend more time together than even time that I get to spend with my partner Matt
and because of the nature of the work that we do we have to go deep on a lot of personal stuff
pretty often. We always are unpacking like the things that we think about something that's
happened in the world or how we feel about something or where we're at in our relationships.
It's kind of like we have our own little therapy session that goes on between us but
we have this amazing relationship where we're the closest of friends but also we're business
partners so it's an incredibly unique relationship that we have. I think it works so well because we
are in different walks of life. Like Laura's got two little kids and a long-term relationship,
she's getting married. I'm single, dating, no kids, free. So I think that's why it works because
we're not travelling on this journey together. We're chaos and we're doing all these different
things but we have so much to come back and take from each other and teach each other and talk
about that I think that's why it works so well. Well you've got the different perspectives don't
you and that's what sort of struck me. You were talking in the book about feeling overwhelmed
and what I loved from both of your perspectives, I mean Laura you were talking about the overwhelm
as a mum of little people because that's exhausting but then Britt you were talking about
the overwhelm that you feel though as a single person. Yeah and it's funny because all of my
friends have kids, my family, my brothers and sisters. I know the chaos that it brings but I
guess I felt like I couldn't express that I was overwhelmed because I felt that like everyone is
more overwhelmed than me because they have kids. So you internalise that and you feel this level
of guilt, I can't complain about being tired, I can't complain about being upset, depressed, stressed.
But it's not a competition though. Exactly and that's what I wanted to drive home in the book
that we don't have to compare ourselves to everybody else and it's all relative and it's
if you are feeling that for whatever reason you're allowed to feel that. And also you can have space
for both like one person could on paper be more overwhelmed, they could have more work on their
plate, they could have more parenting duties, they could be more literal things that they need to do
but someone could have more mental overwhelm and for whatever reason they're not coping with that
and just because the two of you aren't coping doesn't mean that one person needs to be not
coping the most and we do that with our friends sometimes, we do that with our colleagues where
we're like oh you're complaining about how you feel, well you don't even know the half of it
and I think we need to stop competing on that point exactly. The internal eye roll when someone
complains to you and you feel like being like you don't even know you know so that's what we
wanted to drive home in that chapter. Which you have done I think so incredibly. There was a lot
of things that opened my eyes. I'm a little bit more I don't want to say older because my beautiful
producer Nick always says don't say you're a granny but sometimes I do feel like a bit of a granny
when I read chapters. Jess sometimes I feel like a granny don't worry. Oh you probably could have felt that a few times in this book.
But when I'm reading okay nudes about nude pictures I just think thank god I'm not dating now.
When was the last time you sent a nude? That's what I want to know. Never once. You never even
was like hey honey look at this I look fire today. Also Jess don't say thank god you're not dating
right now because some of us in this room still are dating so I need some optimism here. No of course
but Brittany that's the point I was falling in love having different relationships or
situationships. I mean that's a whole new word which we can get into later before there were iPhones
before the internet. So for me to hear about nudes. Imagine sending a nude right you would
have had a film camera you would have taken it you take it to your local store you get it developed
some pubescent 14 year old boy he's going through your photos being like well your nudes are ready
for pickup then you have to go pick them up. But it's a dangerous world we live in and I think
that's what we wanted to drive home to sending nudes great that's okay if that's what you want
to do but be hyper aware that once something is out in the stratosphere it is out there and you
have to be very trusting of whoever you're sending it to. You have to understand that there could be
a risk that it could end up somewhere else. You know I was in a long-distance relationship. Because
you sent one to Laura didn't you to get her sort of approval. It was very much unsolicited I'd like
to have that on the record. I think you said I took a good nude and then the next message was the nude
and I was like that's the most recent one I've been sent in a long time. I was still on the
fence because it's not something I did so I thought like how can I decide if I send this or not and
the only answer was obviously to send the nude to Laura. So my friends say A is this hot rate
this out of 10 B should I send this to Jordan and within two seconds there was like a that has to
go out immediately she was like send that. I mean Brittany's seen like half my birthing videos and
whatnot so like seeing a strategic nude really didn't I mean it was not that obtrusive to be
true. That's great. I can't even believe I'm asking this question I've never asked anyone
this question. Go for it. About dick pics. Oh yeah. Because I've never of course had a dick pic and
and I was like gobsmacked. Do you want one? No. But how? I can give you one if you want. No thank you.
No I don't want to see it. But I don't think penises are attractive. No no one does. A soft
penis isn't attractive and even a hard penis I don't want to see it like in a photo. No. But
anyway I'm digressing. But the other thing that made my jaw drop was that you said they're curated
like people save their best pictures. So this was a story. For other relationships. Well I'll probably
repurpose my Picard so nude at some point. Really? No I'm joking. Your laugh rivals mine. That is
my favourite part of the podcast episode Jess your laugh is phenomenal. Okay so I wrote a story in
the book it was around the very first time I ever got sent a dick pic. I was in a situationship it
was like a long distance thing. We both lived in Bondi at the time but he had gone overseas and he
was in LA and he'd been away for a couple of weeks and the messages were getting spicier and he asked
me to send him a topless photo and I at the time was like I'm at work like it's no like how the
hell am I going to do that and then he was like just go to the bathroom and I was like look at
the bathroom sit in a cubicle and take a photo of my boobs. You did that didn't you? No I didn't but
then I was like trying to bide myself time I was like okay why don't you send me one anyway so then
he sends me this picture two minutes literally not even two minutes 30 seconds later and I was
like oh that was real quick like what did he do just pull his pants out and take a photo down there
but anyway I opened it up and there is this photo of him in all his manhood standing in his apartment
with a rock hard erection and there was like the surfboard that was familiar to me behind him and
I was like hold on you're in LA and that photo was taken in Bondi you just sent me an upcycled
dick pic. Did you actually say what's going on? I was like wait you literally never took this for
me like this was taken for someone else and it obviously worked well so now you've sent it to me
and he was like oh yeah like as though that wasn't even a big deal and I was like that's
so weird that's so weird but apparently lots of people do it they have folders of their best nudes
so that you know if you're at work and you're not feeling particularly sexy and then you're like
having this little sexy text message on the side you can just be like oh yeah here we go. Look I
don't think it's the end of the world if you do but I don't think anyone I don't think you're alone
nobody that I know likes receiving dick pics I don't I don't want it does nothing for me I don't
want to see it I don't think you will see it. Well it's not sexy and I again it's a generalisation
but I think as women our sort of sexual life is more about fantasies and mood and feeling
as opposed to I don't want to see that. I'm with you Jess I don't want any of it. Okay well
neither of you are single right now so this one's in my this book who's in my park. I suppose in a
way almost Laura I'm a bit with you that if the house is clean and the dishwasher is empty and
maybe my husband's cooked dinner which he doesn't but all of those things are more likely to get me
in the mood. I think that also goes back to the whole feeling of overwhelm like when your partner
steps up to the plate and they've done all the things not that because they're doing it out of
duty but just because they they also want to be in a house that's well taken care of you're matching
each other 50 50 in the workload you're also then matching each other 50 50 in the mental load
that to me is very arousing like when I'm not expected to do everything in the household and I
am I hate saying lucky because it's I'm not lucky I just chose well I chose a man who is he's
incredibly hands-on with the kids he's incredibly hands-on with the house but
I'm so grateful for that because I know that that's not the norm in everyone's relationship.
Well of course your husband is Matty J. Because that's what I'd love to talk about
the bachelor and reality tv because what I think's extraordinary again about the two of you is that
you were on different series of the show but you bonded over that shared experience didn't you?
Lucky we're on different seasons wasn't it? Yeah I don't know if we would have the same
relationship or friendship if Britt had been making out with Matt on my season let me ask you
about that though because that's something I've always grappled with when I've watched that show
that I would feel so jealous and I don't think I could bear to then hang out with a whole lot of
people in a house afterwards when they've been kissing someone that I really like like I'd want
to I don't know push them off the bunk bed or poison them or do something like that's a big
dream. We're literally in bunk beds as well like for anyone who doesn't know in the batch
mansion it looks all beautiful on screen but the behind the scenes is far from lux. It's a hostel.
All the girls live in bunk beds yeah it truly feels like you're on Kentucky like a bad version
of Kentucky. Look it's a weird environment I think for me I had been dating for a long time
and I kind of was very used to the fact that most men and women who are dating are seeing multiple
people at the same time. There's very few people these days who go on a date and they're committed
from day one to seeing where that goes and then choosing someone else so in my mind I was like
well look he's pretty much just doing what every single guy I'm dating has done to me except he's
being fully transparent about it. But you're seeing them you're hanging out with them. But the
difference was it was like at least I know like I know he's not having sex with them I know that
it's only a kiss and then he's exploring whether or not he has emotional feelings for them. I think
with us there were some girls that I really connected with and became really great friends
with on the show and I didn't feel jealous. I was like you know what you are an awesome chick and
if he chooses you we'll probably still be friends and I'll sleep in the bunk bed in your spare room.
And then there were other people that I felt more jealous of but it was probably because I
didn't have the friendship with them and that kind of maybe brought out more of my insecurities. But
the show absolutely makes you jealous. Absolutely it makes you feel insecure. It makes you question
or not whether they're invested in you or they're invested in someone else because you have this
amazing time with them and you know Matt and I we had the first it feels so long ago we had the
first kiss of the season and then we would have these incredible like really beautiful times
together and then the next day another girl would have come home and been like I did this and I did
that and you take one step forward and two steps back in self-preservation because I'd go oh okay
well it's not real it's not real and it wasn't until that very final day when he was able to
say how he felt about me that that's when I was like okay cool it's real now and we're going to
start fresh from this point. The only way I can describe how I feel towards you is Laura I love
you. I love you too. I think you are so perfect. I was so ready for you to break my heart. I think
they're upset for me. Oh yeah well I mean it's just a personality thing but I'm not a jealous
person and I never have been and I went in with a very practical attitude and that was
if he wanted to be with someone else that's okay because I don't want to be with someone that
doesn't want to be with me so I genuinely wanted him to find out which connection he wanted because
I didn't want a fake relationship I wanted to know that at the end of the day he knew everyone and
he chose me which we know he didn't but he almost did. Let's just back up a bit for those who perhaps
aren't as familiar with it essentially I mean the honey badger he didn't choose either of you
and I reckon that was gutless of him to just go I'm not choosing anyone. I have a heavy heart
right now and Brittany it's both of them it's both of you are amazing women and I just
trying to trying to find my way in that cloud is it's too much for me right now.
It was an unusual choice especially because as far as our conversation was going it was me that
until the morning of you know and that's a lot of that wasn't shown obviously and it does not
to be clear like it does not bother me now I'm so he's just had a baby I'm so happy for him he
looks so happy and that's what all I would want for him but see that's very generous of you to
do that I would be I know being bitter and twisted isn't good but I think in some ways
that was handled poorly um on his part in terms of like explaining the reasons why because he
kind of just like disappeared and didn't do any press or media so people were left making
up their own assumptions as to why but also I look at it from the flip side I'm grateful that and
I don't want to speak on your behalf Britt but like I'm grateful that he didn't choose any if
he wasn't sure don't just pick someone to like tick a box and then try and make it work because
you've got to just be a happy couple in the media for a couple of months I think that totally but
don't lead someone down the garden path you know what I'm saying yeah he made what was also a very
difficult decision he probably just didn't need to make you so uh so sure that it was going to be you
I guess but yeah like look at us now yeah this is the real love story from the bachelor but
the unexpected one that is so true and I think that's what's so beautiful so how then did you
meet when I was when my season was going to air Alex Nation she reached out to me so Alex Nation
was the winner of the previous season she was with what's her name Richie Richie um and she
copped a lot of abuse from people online but also from the media uh and it really affected her and
there was a period there where I was copying it and she reached out to me now she had figured out
that I was the person at the end purely from the edit I think if you look really closely at the
edit and you have been in that situation before you can kind of figure out who the person is once
you've been on the show you know oh really you know all the tricks they're coming third they're
second they're first so she reached out to me and it was like a real duty of care and she sort of
said you know um if you need anyone to talk to I'm here the mob always moves on and that really
really helped me in that time and it really helped our relationship as well because there
was a little while there where when the show finished and the Australian public were divided
I thought how can our relationship ever survive if people hate us being together so much even
though there was lovely people and it of course felt loud because and how do you deal with that
because I was quite shocked to discover in reading your book that you had to manage all of that social
media yourself so you're reading all of this hate and unfortunately it's within our human nature
I think we focus on the negative that yes there were lovely things and lots of love for you both
as a couple but then we read the negative stuff and you hold on to that totally how did you
and it was manage that it was of a different time because I don't think that that's the way
that it's managed now but at that time we had full access to our social media and the only kind of
guidance we were given was to just block and delete and ignore it and not engage but we're so
negatively geared as people that when we read something that's nasty you could read 10 awesome
comments about yourself but the one thing that's horrible is the thing that you hold on to so just
back to kind of how we then connected through The Bachelor we then got a year down the path and Matt
and I were so solid the mob well and truly had moved on and we were watching the season play out
and I just knew from the edit that Britt was at the end and I had said to channel 10 if anyone
needs anything if anyone just needs to speak to someone it doesn't matter where they've placed
let them know that I'm open to speaking to them and there was a real sort of like oh no don't get
involved like we manage this but I reached out to Britt because she was copying it online and I just
said look if you need to speak to anyone I'm here I don't know the outcome but also I just want you
to know it probably feels like everyone hates you right now and they don't and then within I was
like here's my number no pressure if not and within five minutes Britt was on the phone calling me and
then that's kind of where the friendship came from I actually remember it went something like
because it was at the very end and I was getting a lot they want it to be quite volatile ending so
they play something out people start to pick you as a character you know pick who you want to win
and you become a character you're not a real person anymore and I was getting a lot of hate
and I got a message from Laura that said I can only imagine you haven't left your housing days
because they're paparazzi you haven't left your housing days you haven't gotten out of bed you're
crying you're eating an excessive amount of food this is my number if you want to talk and I called
her and I was like is this candid camera I was like how are you watching me like ice cream buckets
next to me haven't left my bed and and the friendship just started like that we started
to catch up and then not that long after I knew I always wanted to do a podcast and I just never
met the right person and then I met someone as I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on your podcast
I met someone as fucked up as I am and I was like you're it in the best possible way I was like oh my
god like this is the synergy this is and then that's that was literally the birth of life uncut
I'm not a swearer I don't mind you swearing but I'm not a swearer but but I agree with you in the
sense of we're all slightly effed up oh yeah we are thank you thank you for saying that for me
no but we're all we all have our stuff absolutely but the problem is I think people feel they've
got to hide it and sort of project this facade to the wider world but why I think both of you
have connected so beautifully and built such an incredible brand and successful podcast and
business is you cut through that crap and people can sort of see part of themselves in both of you
and they everyone goes oh thank goodness it's not just me it's this is what I'm talking about or
thinking about or worrying about or stressing about do you know it's interesting you say that
because when the show very first finished and we were thrust out into this like okay you're this
reality tv couple who have to be like the perfect pin-up couple but also I looked at people like
Anna Heinrich and Snizana and they are just beautiful well put together always wear gorgeous
designer labels always look amazing in like in any sort of candid paparazzi shot and then there
was me and I was like I don't fit the mold I don't fit what I thought the mold was for this
bachelor person and for a while there on on instagram specifically on social media I was
trying to be very perfect I got only post photos where I looked a certain way you know I would use
the smoothing tools to be like let's get rid of my melasma or my pigmentation I wanted to look
perfect and then it would really get me down because I'd receive messages from people which
were negative messages it might have even been something about the way I looked or what I'd done
and I was like this is literally as perfect as I can be and it's still not good enough for people
and that really really rocked my self-esteem and it was I don't know what the turning point was I've
always thought like what was that catalyst like what was the shift and I think maybe it was becoming
a mum but there was something that really changed in me where I was like do you know what I just
don't care anymore if people don't like me for being me then I'll lose some but I probably will
gain the people that are my community that are my people and that's exactly what happened I have
no qualms in talking with no makeup on with with breast milk down my shirt like I just don't care
anymore well it doesn't matter as much and another part that really struck me reading your book was
when you spoke about how for a brief moment you dabbled in a bit of botox and filler because you
were sort of buying into this criticism and was it your brother or a friend or someone who basically
said what are you doing it was my brother-in-law I don't even know if he realizes this um so I was
away in New Zealand and I had I had gotten like a little bit of filler in my lips I had gotten um
botox in my jaw and botox in my forehead and I had what else had I done I think I'd gotten some
filler in my cheek like I'd literally within a space of six months I was like I need to look
better whatever that was I didn't want to be different but I needed to be me but better
and I was obsessed by it like I every time I looked in the mirror I'd be like oh I don't like
this about myself I don't like this and that was really messed up for me because I'd never done
that pre the show I'd never ever been so focused on my imperfections but because other people had
focused on my imperfections and other people were so quick to say things that were negative about
me you know I would look in my mirror and I'd be like I never hated my nose before but this person
said I should hate my nose now I hate my nose so anyway I did all these things this is going back
about five years ago now and the first year that Matt and I were together we went on a holiday to
New Zealand and I sent a happy snap of me and Matt to my sister and my sister wrote back and she
said Mikey which is my my brother-in-law had said to her what has she done to her face and I don't
think either of them meant it in how brutally that came across but I got the message and I remember
reading it and I remember like looking back at the photo and I was like I don't I don't I don't know
why I don't know why I'm doing this I don't like myself anymore I don't feel any less insecure I
don't think I look any better and that was a really important turning point for me where I
just went okay I'm gonna be me and I'm not and and I don't want anyone to think that like I have
anything against plastic surgery if you're doing it I have botox I have botox and I still get botox
from time to time in my forehead but the thing is they're the things that I'll do for me but I was
trying to change the way I looked to be better but the problem was is I didn't know what better was
I didn't know what the end goal was why was I even doing it and it was because I thought I needed to
be better to be more liked by other people and that's when I really assessed how messed up that
is as a whole concept and there's so much to unpack there and I'd never thought of it this
way where you talk about you have to love yourself before you can love someone else but in fact that's
not how really you see it I mean like yes and no it's a bit of an uphill battle isn't it it's like
you do want to love yourself so that you are you feel whole and you are ready for someone else to
come into your relationship you don't want to you don't want to feel like there's a piece of you
missing that can only be filled by somebody else and I say that because you know I've been single
the better part of 10 years I've had one relationship in that time with my recent ex but like I've been
on my own a long time and it takes a long time to be okay with that and I am I'm very happy on my own
do I want somebody to come and love me absolutely do I need that person to come and stitch me back
together no I don't and I think that it is really important for people to love themselves
and exactly what what Laura just said do whatever you want to your body to your face to to anything
but do it because you're doing it for you not because you feel like you need to do something
to get a partner to be cooler for for Instagram you know so it's a it's a real catch 22 for me
when I think about it and I get emotional about it because I hate to think that people are out
there thinking that they have to go and change their entire look or their entire body because
I can't get a boyfriend or I can't get a girlfriend and the only way that's going to happen is if I get
a facelift boob job liposuction hair extensions you know the whole kit and caboodle if you want
to do that for you go bonkers but yeah it's and it's not as easy as that it's the annoying thing
is when someone says just love yourself as you are you know that's a that's a long
working progress for a lot of people and I still wake up sometimes and I'm like oh I don't even
want to look at myself today like I you know you have a bad day you don't feel good you've got your
period you know you've had way too much alcohol and you're a bit swollen um but yeah it's it's
something you work on forever and I think a lot of people it is a constant battle the saying like
you have to love yourself before anyone will love you is utter bullshit people will go through
periods where they do not love themselves but that doesn't make you unlovable that doesn't
mean that no one will love you and I think sometimes we can be in a very negative headspace
about how we love and perceive ourselves but that doesn't make us unlovable and that's really
important people can love you with your wounds absolutely with the battles everything yeah
and britney I want to talk about the sort of work that you've done and I know you've spent quite a
bit of time traveling wanderlust is such a big part of who you are and also you spent some time
with a buddhist with a monk didn't you that was such a random time of my life and uh I attribute
big changes in my life big pivotal moments to that month I spent a month with a buddhist monk
and when I say a month um it wasn't a month intensive it wasn't on top of a hill in Tibet
where we didn't speak it was that'd be very hard it was a very not to speak no but I mean
this is crazy right I've been to nearly for us but they do that they do these silent retreats
I've been to nearly 60 countries all like everywhere and I ended up doing this in England
of all places I stumbled across him literally in the street one day I caught his robe caught my eye
and I was like what is that and I looked I looked down underground through this window this sounds
very like not ideal but it was underground I looked down he looked up and there was this
monk and we locked eyes and he waved and I waved and then he just said come come in and I was like
this could be a big trick and disastrous or this could be great so I went in and we just chatted
and he was there to do teachings and I thought life has literally ushered me to this point and
um I could talk about him for a long time he was hilarious I know you don't think monks are
hilarious but he was a very funny monk but he over that month the biggest thing that I took away
from that from him and then I always tell people and that I live by is that bad things
heartbreak tragedy trauma are inescapable for all of us as humans at some point in our life
it is going to happen but your life will be defined on your reaction to the situation not
the situation and by that I mean we can't change the catalyst we can't change whatever it was
that has set us down this path but we can decide if we get out of bed or not that day we can decide
if we want to hold on to that for six months we can decide if we want to talk about that to a friend
or or sit at home for the next year crying and it's a different battle for everyone how you deal
with it but it's your reaction will define your life not the situation the situation will not
define your life and I think that that's a really beautiful life lesson that I have taken forward
and I always try and teach other people it is a beautiful one because it's essentially about
sometimes we don't have a choice about what happens in our lives but we can choose how we
decide to deal with it and that's how you can then I think have power or feel empowered in a situation
yeah perception is a beautiful thing especially when something's happened in your life that you
have been powerless to like when you if it's because of the actions of someone else or whether
it's the actions of just the universe that was something that was completely feels like it has
no point and no meaning maybe it's the death of someone you know and I think that like those
things it's easy to sit on one side and say like oh it's how you react to it but like ultimately
it does come down to you and it does come down to whether or not you can work on moving past it or
whether that one thing that happened to you or many things that happened to you would define you
for the rest of your life and you talk about that a little bit as well when you talk about your
stepfather who you mentioned was a heroin addict and the sort of impact that that had on you growing
up and your family growing up yeah my parents got divorced when I was three and my mom got remarried
when I was in primary school it was a very complex time in our lives and also it was something that
got worse as the years progressed so when my mom they got into a relationship he wasn't a heroin
addict at the time but he was always very problematic that his addiction increased over
the years his abuse increased over the years so it was something that like the exposure increased
and I think like by then my mom had a newborn baby with him it was really hard for her to kind
of leave and so that spanned from memory about seven years but I think like for me I grew up
in life and and like it was a really violent time in our household and I was absolutely terrified
of him as a person and was he violent towards you and your mom yes and he was just um he was
just very threatening in the things that he would say and do so you kind of like lived scared of
what the consequences would be around him and because obviously he had drug addiction issues
he was quite erratic and unpredictable and that's probably the scariest thing is the
unpredictability of someone you don't know if you're going to get a good day with them or a bad
day and what does that look like for you so I feel like we were always walking on eggshells
because we were scared that he would snap um but I grew up really really resilient and defiant that
that time in my life wasn't going to define me you know and I think I wore that as a real badge of
honor I was like you know yes domestic violence was part of our childhood like that is something
that happened but it didn't define me and I'm so capable and I'm so like you know I have my own
businesses and I have all these other things going for me but like my dating and relationships
were just like constantly not good constantly not good um and it was a really interesting
sort of revelation for me as much as I don't think my childhood defined me as a person
I definitely think it impacted how I viewed relationships and I used to feel so
so the right word for it I used to feel so guilty and also so pathetic that I couldn't be alone like
I always was in a relationship I always would like go from one thing to another and then I would
repeat the same mistakes and I knew I was the common denominator but I didn't know why I kept
being attracted to these men who would cheat on me and then I would stay and I just I didn't have
an answer for it and to all my friends it seemed so obvious that I should just leave but to me
I was stuck and then when I started to kind of unpack what my blueprint was for what made
a good relationship what I had been exposed to as a child kind of you know the fact that my mum had
stayed in this relationship that's what I had seen it made more sense to me and in no way do I say
that as though I blame my parents or that even that I at the time could identify it but I think
that you know if you haven't had a great role model in your life for what relationships should
look like how can you expect to become an adult who then navigates great relationships like we're
not taught that stuff we get taught algebra we don't get taught how to be like in loving and
stable relationships until you either luckily fall into one or something happens where you go I want
better for myself it's a learned behavior isn't it it's like growing up without it's subconscious
this is what I'm exposed to this is what I know and that's how we learn as children by the people
that are the closest to us the five people that surround us every day totally so it's without
knowing it is a learned behavior that sometimes people need to relearn when they're older yeah
and I think that the big thing especially for that as a topic attachment styles it wasn't like I kind
of went oh my gosh like there's a revelation it's just it gave me the tools to stop being so hard on
myself like to stop blaming myself for having these like shitty relationships but it also made
me really conscious that I was like okay I know I'm doing that thing again I know that the reason
why I'm going back to that relationship isn't because I think it's going to turn out any
different it's because I'm scared of being alone and where does that come from ah that makes sense
and I think having that understanding just allowed me to be more purposeful in how my
relationships unfolded as as opposed to just being carried along on this what sometimes felt
like volatile and like emotional craziness um where like there would be huge amazing highs and
then crazy lows and I always felt like I was a passenger in my relationship and now I'm in
the driving seat and that's really empowering isn't it that's beautiful hearing you describe
that in a way and how you have turned your life into something yeah it's so magical and wonderful
I guess my worry with having these conversations more so was and that's why we put it into the
book because we've done the podcast for three and a half years and I've never spoken about
my childhood and it was because I never wanted someone to be able to like listen to it and then
to misinterpret I think sometimes when we speak things and then it's rewritten into magazines or
whatever it can be misinterpreted out of context and I would hate my mum to to think that I harbour
animosity for that time or that like I even that I even like um what's the right like that I even
worry about it in terms or that I project anything I think at the time she did the best that she could
with the tools that she had based on what she knew and we live in a very unique time now where
there's so much access to self-help self-improvement podcasts there's so much information that you can
arm yourself to better yourself but not even self-help help help help so like for someone in
that situation now we we have the tools and the power and the knowledge totally the accessibility
the internet the phone there are helplines there are centers you could go to it wasn't like that
always yeah I agree completely and there's less stigma yes the stigma I think is still around
for some people to actually reach out but very much the message now is I think if people are
listening if this brings up issues for people please know that you're not alone and by you
sharing your stories in such beautiful ways it reassures people that they're not alone well I
think also what it goes to show is that you know I think so many for so long we kind of thought that
domestic violence and drug addiction happens in households of like low socioeconomic it happens
to like it happens to someone else's family happens over there but couldn't possibly happen
in my family and there's a lot of judgment that's around it and I guess when you hear people talk
about it in a more kind of when we when we unlift the veil on it and we say hey these things happened
in my household and they can happen in any community they can happen at any socioeconomic
I mean it can happen in literally any household and it doesn't make that person who is the victim
like they are the victim you know they didn't ask for it they didn't stay longer it's not their fault
they're not to blame yeah and it's such an easy and dismissive thing to kind of think well why
didn't they just leave there are hundreds of reasons why people can't leave and it's I mean
over the years we've done quite a number of pretty heavy interviews with people that have
been in just domestic violence situations you know have lost their lives we've spoken to family
members of people that have lost their lives truly truly very serious horrific conversations
but we've had them because they're important and there have been reasons behind that we've had the
conversations but I'm really proud that Laura has gotten to a place now where she can talk about it
and the control is hers the power is hers and she's done it in a safe place that she's happy with
in a safe place that she's happy with and it's I'm just proud of her so it's nice to see.
That's so beautiful yeah thanks honey. Is there something Brittany that you wouldn't
share with your audience? We do share a lot if we think someone's going to feel less alone or
they're going to get a giggle out of it and it's going to pull them out of dark place
we share that. But also you share serious stuff too I mean you were you talk about
freezing your eggs and going through that particular journey. I mean my mid-30s I'm single
my fertility is not great and I've had this realization that quite possibly what I thought
my life would look like might not happen and like I could I could cry right now thinking about it
because it's it's something you don't expect to happen to you and I don't get vulnerable often
but I put this reel up I was like stuff it I'm going to do it I put this reel up of me being
upset and just talking about my fears and the number of women that wrote to me saying you put
that perfectly into words what I'm feeling and I've always felt like I was the only one and
they're the reasons that we do it they're the reasons we do that but there are definitely
things that Laura and I both will never share and I think it's really important that people
realize we don't tell every single aspect of our life there are some things that we will always
hold close to our heart but at the end of the day things like that if someone's
going to get something from and it makes them feel better that's why we do the podcast.
I hope though it made you feel less alone as well because sometimes I think as a woman you
do have this idea or notion of this is how my life is going to unfold and by this age this
will happen and I'll be a mum or this and this and this and often things don't go to plan.
And this is a realization I've only just had as well that the the amount of space and real estate
that fertility holds in women's mind without even knowing you might even you might not even
think it's it's happening but it is as you age we know we have a biological clock we know that
there are problems if you're in a position like myself and I know this now because a lot of women
have written to me but it holds space whether you want it to or not you might not even know if you
want to have kids it's still holding space and it can be a very overwhelming feeling I feel like I
think about it a lot even though I'm not desperate to have children that's not it but I don't really
have a choice at the moment because I know that I don't want to do it on my own otherwise for sure
I could do that that's a personal thing so I know I don't want to go down and get a sperm donor and
do this alone so for me it's well maybe maybe it's not going to happen and that's something I'm going
to have to accept or reassess in a few years. And it's never helpful either when people like
to remind you oh you know time is running out blah blah blah I just want to I'm well aware
strangle them yeah no one's more aware than I am so thank you but also I think it's a conversation
we should be having more as women too about I mean we speak about it in pregnancy why you shouldn't
say to someone what are you having a baby because we don't know what they're going through I think
it's the same thing for a lot of women like oh they're just around the corner stop thinking
about it it'll happen when you least expect it all very well-meaning very innocent but you're
like oh man you like hello what do you want me to do that's not helpful what corner is it how many
corners are there where's the corner tell me send me in the direction I'll have mine got lost along
the way oh yeah mine's GPS is going like bonkers so yeah but okay I'm going to put my hand up and
be one of those people you are such a special soul though Brittany oh thank you you are that's
there's going to be a beautiful person there is Brittany's internally eye rolling right now
I know sorry I'm actually not I'm not that's a it's a lovely thing to say I just get awkward
with compliments so I'm like no we need to we need to kind of take those compliments on board
I cannot let you both go without asking about fingers in bottoms oh Jess I think this is
directed at Laura I've been seeing this on your notes and I wondered when you were going to pull
it out I think the right term for that was a pinky in the stinky is uh someone wrote in and they said
Laura looks like the type of person who would have anal sex but not Britt and I was like we were both
offended I was like I don't know what that means but like Brittany got offended that they thought
she wouldn't do it and I was offended that they thought I would do it so I was like I don't know
which one's the right um but I said uh famously which was wonderfully re-quoted by every single
news outlet in Australia uh I don't like to have anal sex but look everyone likes a pinky in the
stinky and it turns out that not everyone does because a lot of women wrote to me to tell me
that that's not the case Jess do you like a pinky in the stinky I mean Jessie's gonna cut that right
out of this episode you can say yes or no because your producer's there she can edit it
before I answer that what I want to ask about though is then it's reported and written about
yes how then I suppose does that make you feel my look this is I think the I've had probably the
worst version of this um I once told a story on the podcast and this is something that's
has like it stayed with me and it truly hurt me I told a story on the podcast quite a while ago
and it was that consent can come in many forms right consent doesn't have to just be sexual
it can also it just be the way that someone treats you and I said that in my early 20s I dated a guy
who used to think it was really funny when we had a shower together to try and pee on me right
disgusting disgusting and I said that was super degrading but but at the time and with my age and
because I didn't quite understand what that looked like in a relationship I was like oh he's just
trying to be funny and I didn't really think about how degrading and what that actually implied for
the rest of our relationship the fact that he thought it was funny to piss on me and so I said
this story and it was all around consent and then it was repurposed in the Daily Mail which was like
Laura confesses sex act with ex and I was like wow that's that's a crappy headline but also I
don't expect anything better so I was like kind of just let it go didn't dwell on it too much
and also we're kind of used to getting a few crappy headlines look that I was like look let
that one slide but when Britt and I had our radio show announced we had a really awesome interview
or we thought it was awesome with a big publication there was going to be a full page newspaper
publication about the radio announcement and it's it's hard being two women in media when you're
like we felt like we'd really achieve something and we were like surely that's enough of an article
surely two women who started a podcast on their own from literally nothing who've now in the
spare bedroom in a spare bedroom after with two kids after 12 hour shifts in emergency with earning
no money for a long time 34 million downloads I was like that's like yes we did it I'm so proud
of us and the journalist asked me how does Matt feel about how much you share on the podcast and
I was like oh he's across it like I don't share anything and I was like is there anything specific
that you think I've shared that I shouldn't have and it was kind of like no no no the entire article
was about this me sharing that I had been pissed on by an ex that was the whole article was like
Laura and Brittany get radio show and they're so open and talk about the golden shower and it was
just this so it was written in such a demeaning way it was purposely written in a way that was
supposed to be like like like look at how scandalous and like grotesque they are with the stuff that
they talk about and they've been given a radio show and I read it and I was genuinely devastated
I was like I was not only did did you interview us for 45 minutes you you wrote the entire article
you wrote was based off a daily mail article that was not true and if it was true I'd have no problems
with it but I was like what do women have to do for their successes to just be enough to report on
that you have to have some sort of scandalous like side story to it and and that's and I just
blew my and that was that's probably the one big time where I was I felt super disappointed and
did it stop me from sharing on the podcast no but did it good did it make me a bit like resentful
and kind of a kind of wary of the media absolutely like I don't have time in a lot of ways for
traditional media anymore it's the uphill battle of women in media of of what like exactly we just
said what does a woman have to do now how much do you have to achieve I'm just going to throw
something in I just thought about Laura and I for two years in a row were lucky enough to win the
listeners choice podcast award oh this was bad this was the one thing that got me the most again
I was like what on earth do we have to do for somebody to just write one positive thing and
be like well done we won this award second year running that Matt obviously came to the awards
with us and we got a photo Matt in the middle he's very supportive you know but he's part of it you
know it's we're all a little family so we have a photo Laura and I on either side Matt in the
middle smashed this thing it's amazing and then the whole article was Matt upstages girls with
how good he looks nothing about the awards nothing about anything it was all about how great Matt
looked at our award and I I mean we love Matt Matt was on our side but I just that was what upset me
I was like what do we have to do you know what you do you keep doing what you're doing and that's it
and you use your incredible show to keep saying what matters because look at how it is resonating
with people that's what you keep doing and 100% and I'm a huge believer in there's always going
to be people who want to pull you down who are jealous who are envious for whatever reason but
you rise above that and you just keep keep being true to who you both are because you're such
amazing women who inspire so many people by what you do but you do and we are so lucky we're so
lucky for the incredible community that we have around us we're so lucky for all of our listeners
because it genuinely is this really close knit community and I think that that is something if
anything we're so lucky to have a platform where we can tell our story so when things do happen
that make us feel upset or make us feel misrepresented we're able to communicate
the truth to the people who really matter and that's really really powerful and I guess
the thing that when when when these situations happen and we see it in the media we see it with
Lisa Wilkinson the one of the one of the stories recently was like when she was sitting in the
window having a cocktail by herself and how it was presented in a way that she was so sad and lonely
that she must be by herself having a cocktail or having the time of her life well we look at Zoe
Foster Blake who's incredibly successful she goes to the gym and all they write about is the
expensive clothes that she wears to the gym and you know why she wears expensive clothes to the
gym because she owns an 84 million dollar business I would too so would I because she worked hard
but it's opening people's eyes to how our perception of someone can be manipulated because
of the way that the media writes about them and especially women and I think that being a really
conscious consumer is so important and we could talk about that for hours so stop us there
yeah well I could talk to you both forever but I know I've got to let you go thank you so much
for today we've had such a great time thank you both we're never on this side of the podcast
interview so this is an absolute treat for us you're a breath of fresh air your outfits amazing your
shoes are amazing everything is amazing and the snort is great just oh well I love both of you
I think you're extraordinary women and you just keep blazing that trail and being true to who you
are because it helps all of us be true to who we are too thank you thank you aren't they just the
best young women oh I learn so much from talking with them from reading their book I really get why
they resonate with so many of us now if you want to get your hands on their book we love love an
unfiltered a to z of modern romance and self-love it is available now wherever you get your books
and I tell you what there was something in there for me for my daughters and I mean I know we spoke
about dick pics but let me just say I'm so relieved I have never got one and now for more big
conversations like this follow the jesro big talk show podcast so you'll know whenever a new episode
drops and while you're there leave a review I love to hear from you share it with a friend the more
the merrier and if you enjoyed this episode with Laura and Brittany I reckon you'll love my chat
with Abby Chatfield one day I realized that when I edited photos of myself I would get more likes
and I just started to feel a bit sick about it because I thought that's damaging my the way I see
myself I think the only way that I can get more likes is by editing how I actually look and it
was more about how it damages my psyche so that's why I don't edit photos anymore the jesro big talk
show was presented by me jesro executive producer Nick McClure audio producer Nikki Sitch supervising
producer Sam Kavanagh until next time remember to live big life is just too crazy and glorious
to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter listener