You didn't have a guy next to you who could have protected you and helped you in the way
that I should have. And for that, I'm always sorry. And I should have been more there for
you. And I wish I'd been a better person and a better man and a stronger man, not just
for myself, but for you.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe, and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep with our most loved personalities. From love to loss and everything
in between, I want to show you a different side of people who seem to have it all together
in these raw and honest conversations about the things that matter. I don't know about
you, but in this time of social isolation and Instagram, I really crave connected conversations.
So I'm going to dig deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we all
love and admire. I always cry and have a laugh so you can expect some tears and laughter
as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities that make us human.
In this episode, I speak with one of Australia's most well-known television journalists, Carl
Stefanovic. Carl and I hosted The Today Show in 2006.
Good morning to you, Jess. Welcome aboard.
Oh, thank you. It is so exciting to be here.
I know, it's been a long time coming here. It has, my first day and our first show.
I know, we have a cracking show for you too.
It's an understatement to say it was a tumultuous time.
At the time, I wasn't a good host and I certainly wasn't a great co-host and, you know, I wasn't
a great friend to everyone that I should have been.
Now, I haven't seen Carl since I was sacked on maternity leave and we haven't spoken about
that crazy year we shared together.
I mean, there was not a harder period. Not a harder period. And that was just for me.
You know, for you, I can't imagine.
So I was anxious about how our chat would go.
And I hadn't snorted before I met you.
Well, you know what, my allegra snorts, my eldest, and I'm sort of quite chuffed about
that. I think, yay! And my mum, who every now and then will get cross with me,
I'll say about being laughing too loudly, sneezing too loudly, snorting when I laugh,
and I'll go, but mum, you do it too.
Mums can be funny creatures.
Oh, but mums are the best.
I know, but they're just so annoying sometimes.
Like, I love my mum to death, but it's like, she just has little picks at things and it's,
mum, you just don't need to go there.
Well, somebody needs to stop eating, don't they?
Mum, I've got a newborn baby. I can't even go to the gym. I'm trying.
And she goes, yes, but, you know.
So that's what your mum tells you.
Oh, goodness me. Well, let's stop.
I've had worse from more.
That's what I always say. If you're going to have a go, make it a good one.
Yeah, it's true. It's true.
It's been 14 years, Carl, since we've really sat down to talk, hasn't it?
Yeah, and it's funny because I see you every now and then in social or charity functions.
And we never really got the chance to sit down and unpack.
And it's always been on my mind to sit down with you and talk through all of that.
Because I think as life goes on, I think you realise where, you know, there was hurt and
pain amongst a couple of people, not directly at each other necessarily, but who are going
through similar things.
And we just didn't even get the opportunity when we're in the middle of it.
I mean, it was just such a storm, a real storm.
And it was. And even sitting here with you, I mean, it's so lovely to see you, but I have
this big knot in my stomach in the sense of because it brings me back to that time.
Because, you know, the last time that we, I suppose, shared a desk together, there was
a baby shower for me because I was heading off to have Allegra.
And then I didn't come back.
And I didn't, you know, there was stuff going on that I wasn't even aware of.
And the whole thing was handled in a pretty appalling way.
But also, I think if you brought it back even six to eight months before that happened,
there was really disgraceful things written about both of us.
But more horrendously for you in papers, that today would get, I think, probably a great
deal of attention and not in a positive way.
There's support now for women and women have found their voice and I think that's wonderful.
But at the time, for someone like you to be on your own, and let's face it, we were both
But for you as a woman to have been attacked in the way that you were, you know, years
later when I was going through, you know, a third and fourth wave, all that stuff, I
remember thinking, God, how did Jessica Rose survive?
Because you know, you're a mom, it's the hardest job in the world to do, there was so much
media attention and awful things written, like personal, disgusting, I don't know how
you get up in the morning kind of things.
And for me, years later, to have thought, you know, again, we were both there and we
were both experiencing it in different ways, but not to have sort of sat and talked about
it is strange to me, because now you would.
But I think we were both under siege and we were both trying to survive and it just, to
me, it was really a dark kind of period.
And there we are, both of us, trying to say good morning to the nation and trying to be
happy when we were getting pummeled from every which way.
And looking at, oh no, what will the papers have today?
Because it was the time before there wasn't Twitter, there wasn't Instagram, there wasn't
any of that. So really it was kind of newspapers were the main source and other, I suppose,
TV stations and things.
But I remember that literally there'd be times with you where we would look at each other.
And but I think in a sense, we couldn't probably talk at the time because each day held something
It was a very difficult period.
I mean, there have been, and I'm sure in your life too, outside of work, difficult times.
But this was probably the hardest period.
You know, they'd gone, Tracey had done a year and then she was supposed to be there for
years and then she went into a current affair and she kind of got out of it.
And every day I was like, oh man, you know, this is really hard.
And I had I had people like Mike Munro coming up to me going, man, I've been offered your job, son.
You know, but I'm like, you can have it.
And then I'd have, you know, on any given day when you were attacked, I'd have like Sam Chisholm,
the boss of Nine, kind of ring me and tell me I was the worst presenter in Australia.
And, you know, can you move on?
You know, can you can you do something right?
You know, you're hopeless.
And I was like, just a barrage from the CEO.
And then I remember one day I copped it so much, Jess, that I just went, I've had enough of this.
I cannot take it anymore.
So make a decision, Sam.
You know, send me back to LA or whatever.
And that was really the crossroads.
But I remember I told him to get, you know, actually said that and on the phone or on the phone,
because I was too scared of him face to face.
He was this guy was loved.
But it was hard for me with him.
And then he gave me the job.
So he was very supportive of me.
Yeah, he would have been.
Yeah. But I was like, I was copying it.
And then I told him that.
And then he just changed.
He said, like, finally, you've grown some balls and blah, blah, blah.
Oh, man, it's just the wrong way of going about things with me.
But after that, I was like, you know, I'm just going to get on with it.
But you are still stuck in the maelstrom as well.
And you sail through these work hours and you don't know who's supporting you and who's not.
And then you question why you're even doing it yourself.
And for you, I'm sure that was like it was a hundred times worth, you know, emotionally.
And then, you know, I think to try and support, you know, anyone who's going through that,
you first have to realize that other people are.
You're not the only person in the world.
Even though you might be trying to do your own thing for your own family, it's still that outlook for me has changed significantly.
Took a long time.
But, you know, just because you think that what you're going through is a lot,
I think taking the time to breathe and to actually have a look around and see what's going on with other people,
I think it's a really important life lesson, you know, but certainly not an easy time,
which is such a shame because I think you and I are both very happy people.
Well, we get on well.
And I remember when we first actually worked together, it was at Channel 10.
Yeah, that's right.
You were filling in for Rob Wilson.
You were like you were a superstar in Sydney and like, you know, at Channel 10.
And I came down from Brizzy and I was like this kid and like,
you're going to read 5pm news at Channel 10 in Sydney.
I was like, shit, I mean, this is huge.
And then you were, you're so beautiful and welcoming and you're just in charge of the whole thing.
And I was like just shitting myself.
And, you know, we went to wear and it was fantastic.
And remember, you had to sit on telephone books.
And I would call you shrimp sandwich because you were too short.
The gentle ribbing.
History won't judge that well, Jess.
That was bullying in the workplace.
Because remember those first times you were like coming up under my armpits.
I looked like a little puppet.
I looked like a puppet.
So in the days of phone books, I think it was either two or three that you had to sit on.
No, it was three.
I was like something from Fraggle Rock.
And you were so like tall and statuesque.
And I'm like this little kid, like just like a meerkat.
Like it was three. It was definitely three phone books.
And you have to explain to people what a phone book is these days.
But it seems like so long ago.
It was a long time ago.
But picking up on what you said, we had always got on.
So we would have a laugh.
We'd have a good time together.
So then when it came to us to be working together, I was excited.
I thought this will be fun.
We'll have a great time.
And I often look back and think if I was to do that job now, I'd be better at it.
Yeah. And I think that so would I.
And the only difference is that I think, you know, no one wanted to do my job.
It was like no one.
What, the masked man standing?
I was the Stephen Bradbury of Channel 9 and no one wanted to do it.
So it was like, and then I had that big thing with Sam Cheers.
And I kind of just went, I'm just getting on with it.
And it was a big switch from insecurity and taking being sort of significantly bullied
or commanded in the workplace to taking my own direction and steering my own ship.
So all of that kind of combined at the one time.
I know exactly, like I know now that we could sit and do a show and it'd be so easy
and it would reflect our personalities and be no dramas.
And I could snort when I laugh.
There wouldn't be a problem with that.
I can see that in the paper.
Jess teaches Carl to snort.
No, but it was like a property.
It's like, you know, we were just, I just wasn't mature enough for that job.
I was 30, you know, and it was just a crazy decision.
I always thank David Gingell for it.
And he left three months after he got the job.
He got the job somewhere else.
So there was no protection and there was nothing.
And but, you know, at the end of the day, it taught me to be tough and it taught me
to have a thick skin and to be able to know where the line is.
But it did take me a long time to get there.
And unfortunately for you, it was like you didn't have a guy next to you who
could have protected you and helped you in the way that that I should have.
And for that, I'm always sorry.
And I should have I should have been more there for you.
And for me, it was like, you know, I'm trying to do my own family thing.
I had newborns and I just completely didn't think about anyone else.
It was like shut down city.
So, you know, this is part of why I'm here today is to is to apologize to you.
I wish I'd been a better person, a better man and a stronger man,
not just for myself, but for you.
Oh, that's terrible.
I feel very bad about that.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah, that means so much to me.
Oh, I, you know, legitimately, you know, I feel I feel, you know, genuinely sorry.
And, you know, it's not the easiest job in the world,
but it can be easier and I can learn things from it.
But at the time, you know, I wasn't a good host and I certainly wasn't a great co-host
and, you know, wasn't a great friend to everyone that I should have been.
You know, I think now, you know, when I look at the team that I have,
which is just wonderful and I know I knew the nuances of the team
and I know how to protect them and I know all those things.
But at the genesis of me on this journey, I just wasn't, it just was all too much.
So, you know, I'm not crying.
You know, this is what you're doing now.
You're making people cry.
No, no, you feel you're giving you a virtual hug.
This was a time when a woman was mercilessly attacked in the media and you had no cover.
And I can't, you know, for the life of me, comprehend how you can be so tough
and how you can get up in the morning and you can keep doing your thing
and you can keep laughing and you can keep smiling with your kids,
keep loving your husband and, you know, you're a great person and a strong person for doing so.
Oh, Carl, thank you.
Well, I think that's sort of life that you don't really know what you're made of
until situations are thrust upon you.
And often in these awful situations, it can be the making of you.
And I know I look back on that time and yes, it was hideous.
But what kept me going was I thought, I'm going to win in the sense of,
I'm just going to keep showing up because if I don't, then everyone else has won.
But it did take a toll.
And I know for me that my postnatal depression definitely was linked to what had happened that year previously
and was definitely linked to the fact that I lost my job on maternity leave.
Whether or not, looking back, I would have wanted to have come back.
To have that taken out of my hands, that was what made me so furious at the time.
Whoever is on that show is a lightning rod, you know, and it continues, you know,
whether it's Lisa or whether it's, you know, Alison, Georgie, Deb.
I mean, anyone who's on it gets smashed from time to time.
And it's an incredibly difficult role.
If you're going to show up every day, you've got to be prepared to allow monumental criticism.
And you've got to let that not affect you.
And how do you do that?
Because you're extraordinary when I think about your career and where you're at now.
And there would have been times, as you say, when you were ready to walk away.
How have you got that fix?
There were times when I hated it and I did want to walk away.
And I certainly wanted to walk away from the Today Show.
You know, there are certain parts of the media and they know who they are, who keep, you know,
just keep, maybe because they get clickbait and it's lazy journalism and, you know, whatever.
But you've got to accept it and you've got to be prepared to ignore it and not let it affect you.
I think I'm really good at compartmentalising, which means it's all banked up there
like dynamite ready to explode at some point.
So when are those times when you have exploded?
I think, you know, I think there was a lot of sandbagging.
I think, you know, you kind of, you know, on a Friday night, I'd have too many to drink.
And, you know, that goes on for too long.
And it's not drinking for enjoyment.
It's kind of like a medicating drinking.
And I think that was bad.
You know, and I think nowadays, honestly, anyone can say anything about me, whatever.
You know, I'm the guy showing up.
I'm the guy, you know, doing my thing.
You can't affect me.
It's when, you know, it's like personal things that go way back and things I haven't handled well.
Or if you attack my family or, you know, don't do the right thing by my family or my colleagues
or my friends that I get, you know, pretty angry.
But other than that, I'm really relaxed.
I've got a lot to be thankful for, so you keep hold of that.
There's love in my life, a lot of love.
There's a beautiful 10-month-old.
And, you know, I've got four beautiful children.
And I think you hold on to the things that are positive in all of that.
There's no perfect life.
There's no perfect relationship.
There's no perfect anything.
But you hold on to the real beauty in your life.
And I think it's worth holding on to.
And it really does, I believe, overcome everything else.
And that beauty in your life, as you say, you're grabbing onto it with both hands,
is your gorgeous wife, your kids.
Now, tell me, first of all, about Harper.
Yeah, so I was not concerned at all about, you know, having a fourth little bub.
Jasmine is Jasmine's first, so she was pretty nervous.
But she's just taken to it really well.
The hours, the breakfast hours kind of suit having a little baby.
So as soon as I get out of here, I go straight home, race home.
And also, it allows me to avoid things like the gym.
So I just get really happily fat.
Yeah, but much better to be hanging with your beautiful girls.
It's really nice.
And I think, you know, when we look back at our time, even on The Today Show together,
it's like we missed a little, we did miss a bit, like I missed a bit.
And now I'm just surrendering myself to this time, you know,
and not worrying about the clock on what's happening at work all the time.
Probably it really annoys the producers at The Today Show.
But for me, it's my time with my family and I guard it really fiercely.
And also, I think for mental health, it's incredibly important to not be thinking about work all the time.
I think work is work.
And as much as I love it and I love connecting with Australians and I love being there through the course of a show,
it's also important for me just to shut it off, you know, because we've got a 24-hour cycle basically on things.
So that's been an important thing for me, too.
And I think, you know, you can tell at home that I'm there rather than thinking about too many other things.
And do you think that's been a big difference for you this time round, being a dad?
Huge. And I think, you know, even having that year off The Today Show, as much as that hurt,
and I don't know exactly how you feel, it was needed.
I had to have a circuit breaker, even though I didn't think it at the time.
I'll just keep marching through this because I'm, you know, so up myself.
They can't do it without me. I'm going to survive.
But I just, you know, you realise that they can, and they will, and it'll go on.
And did that hurt? Did that hurt your ego?
Yeah. Not so much my ego, but I loved it.
You know, I love it. I love presenting stories and emotions,
and I love conveying and communicating with the Australian public because it's so raw.
You get addicted to that. And so for me not to have it,
the first couple of months were kind of difficult because I was like,
is this actually happening? Like, what am I going to do at the end of this year?
And what did you think you might do?
Well, I didn't know. I just, I didn't know.
And I wasn't sure where Nine was at with me.
Would you have walked away from telly?
Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. I was really cooked.
And I was over the whole experience.
But what would you do? What did you think you might do?
I would have always done journalism of some kind.
So I would have probably tried to go into radio and podcasts or like what you're doing now,
whatever it is that would have been in communication.
But fortunately for me, you know, I was able to come back, which is very lucky.
And now I don't take any of that for granted.
You talked about how family is now very much your number one priority.
How do you reckon your kids would describe you as a dad?
Depends which one of them you ask on any given day.
Yep, that's so true.
You know, I think as a dad, I think you just try and do your best.
You know, I wouldn't want to talk for my children now.
It's one thing I have I have learned and especially I don't want you talking to them either.
Or anyone for that matter.
But they're the great levelers, though, aren't they, when they do tell you what they think?
I mean, my daughter will often go, Mum, there is no way you are going on TikTok.
No one wants to see old people dance badly.
Well, I like to think of myself as a very good dancer.
A very white man dancer.
And my daughter did.
She did say, Dad, your TikToks are terrible.
And we did a TikTok together where I got where I transformed into what she was wearing and vice versa.
Which on reflection, what do you think in the current climate?
But it was her idea.
I didn't even I don't even think like that.
Anyway, it's a very bad TikTok.
So that was kind of the last one I've done.
And at the end of the day, you've got to try and be as good a person as you can be and be yourself.
And try and, you know, I think the time that you spend with them is important.
And if you can't, then I think that's, you know, that's, you know, something to be regretful about.
But if you can't, you can't.
But to try and spend time with them or at least show them that you want to spend time with them,
I think that's really important.
And that's something that I wasn't great at in the past.
I was, you know, all about career, all about trying to get ahead and, you know, try and excel and try and provide.
And I think that there are things that you lose in that quest.
And one of them is a depth of feeling and emotion.
But you were a young dad, Carl.
I think to me, it sounds like you're being pretty tough on yourself, perhaps unnecessarily so.
I mean, the first time you became a dad, you were what, 20?
And, you know, I think...
25 is young, yeah.
And I don't know that you have too much of an idea at 25, but that's not an excuse.
No, it's not an excuse.
But I think about it's tough being a parent.
I love being a mum.
But I know as an older mum, I'm far better that I would have been younger because I'm happy
I know who I am and what I want.
And I think when you're younger, that can be difficult.
And so I think you probably need to perhaps not be as tough on yourself.
Yeah, you know, and again, the second time around, second wave around and look, we'll
probably end up having four or five more.
You looked at me, you raised your eyebrows going, I'm waiting for the follow up.
I think we'll probably try and have one more.
But I don't, you know, I'm very relaxed about the future and I'm better at it now, the time
management aspect.
But you're happier.
To me, that's just as an outsider looking in.
I would say you are happier and because you are happier within yourself, you're in a better
So then you can devote the time to the things that matter.
Yeah, I think so.
And look, you know, I think years and years ago, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's
going on, but there were still great times as well.
So it's just about, you know, looking back and going, okay, what did you do the best
And the answer is yes.
And now do I do things differently?
The answer is yes.
Does it mean that I wasn't as good back then?
Probably, maybe, I don't know, or maybe not, but it was just different.
So now for me, as a dad, I'm doing things differently, I'm still going to make mistakes
I'm still going to, you know, to be, you know, an egomaniac sometimes.
But you know, that's being a man and you know what, every time I'm still growing and I'm
still learning and I'm still trying to be a better person, I really am.
And I think the moment you stop trying is the moment that you've kind of lost your focus
and lost your way a bit.
And that's why you hope to have the love in your life to be able to correct and get back
on course, you know, and to be open to that is really important.
And speaking about love in your life and the love of your life, you have your beautiful
Yeah, she's a magnificent woman.
And you know, I'm just incredibly proud of her because I think coming into a relationship
like this with someone high profile is intensely difficult.
And yes, she was a model, but she kind of chose where she was able to take that and
what she was doing with that.
But when you come into a relationship with someone like me, it's like you have to give
part of yourself over and the scrutiny is terrible.
She hates, you know, being photographed and she hates that feeling inside her.
You know, I'm kind of used to it, but she gets very tense, you know, with the paparazzi
and you can hear her.
She hears the sound before you and it's like, as she said at the start of our relationship,
I'm not Brad Pitt, you know, why do you get so much attention?
I said, well, I mean, what do you mean?
I like Brad Pitt.
I'm sure he's a bit thinner.
No, but I think it's for any woman, it's harder than it is for a bloke, but because they're
judged differently.
And also she hasn't chosen it.
I mean, she's chosen you to fall in love with, but she hasn't chosen I'm going to be in the
public eye as a result of that.
And I mean, even so far as our wedding, the way it was covered and the way it's like,
We just, you know, she deserved to have a great wedding and we tried to do it in Australia
and it was too expensive.
And then, you know, even a wedding, which is supposed to be a really happy day for her,
turned into this, this is an over the top kind of, you know, it's like, oh, why doesn't
everyone just relax?
You know, just let people live.
And that must have hurt.
That must have really hurt you.
Well, it hurt me because it hurt her.
At the end of the day, there's not a single person at that wedding who didn't have a good
And that's all that matters.
That's all you can hold on to.
It's like everyone who came there was there for us and they love us and we had such a
bloody great time.
And so you just got to, again, hold on to that.
And history won't judge that wedding for, you know, for anything, but we will, you know,
and anyone there will go, what a wedding that was.
You know, that's, that's part of my philosophy now is on any of that stuff is, you know what,
we are who we are.
We actually both love a party and now that we've got a little one, we just can't wait
for another party.
We're going to Mexico as soon as we can.
You know, and part of it was to try and get away from all the heat and, you know, now
we can do that in Australia.
We've got, we have a place on the Sunshine Coast, which we're lucky enough to have.
And we can go up there whenever we want.
And apart from me getting photographed in the surf, it's just awful.
But you can't let that stop you.
But I don't need to see myself trying to get up on a surfboard with a skin tight rashing
Like, it's just horrendous.
It's like, you know, a badly packed, you know, bean bag.
Don't focus on that.
Focus on the fact you had your beautiful wife and your little baby girl there cheering
Cheering me on, yeah.
No, and it's, it's, we're very lucky again.
So I think, you know, for me, you know, whatever I do moving forward, it's that, that combination
now of being able to get away and, and spend that time and look, even just being on a beach
You know, soaking up those experiences rather than doing it quickly and, you know, everything's
Now it's like, everyone's got to take time and breathe, especially now with, with what's
happened in this country and around the world with this pandemic.
It's breathing, you know, literally breathing clean and taking the time to breathe and go,
hey, this life is short and it's, it's so precious and it's so delicate.
So live it and breathe it and love it.
And to be, that is where you seem to be at in your life.
And you know, even, even coming to see you today, it's like, I'll just do whatever I
You know, I want to, I wanted to talk to you about some things that we hadn't got time
to talk about legitimately.
And, and so for me, that's what, how wonderful to be able to choose and what power and that
I have over my life now where I'm able to do that.
And it comes through me making clear choice and clear decisions about the future of my
family and myself, but also not living too far in the future.
Like, you know how hard it is to get me to do anything, but I've got, I actually can't
believe I got today and I've gone, oh, I've got to go see Jess.
I actually would normally forget.
Well, it was so hard to get you in this studio.
What did my husband do, Carl?
He saw me and goes, have you got back to Jess yet?
He goes, get back to her.
I went, oh shit, I've got to, I'm going to have to ring her.
I'm going to, no, no, what do I have to do?
No, no, no, I just had to text her.
But how he actually managed to corner you was in the car park with his car.
Yeah, no, he did.
You couldn't drive out.
I thought I was getting done by the coppers again.
It was just P. Overton.
Instead it was Petey going, will you ring my wife?
I always, but he's like, I do, you know, genuinely love him.
He is, and we don't spend a huge amount of time outside of work together, but he, I've
never met a guy who's more himself in person than Pete Overton and who reflects great things.
And I think it's why he's the best newsreader that I've seen and will continue to be because
he is just a genuine person and it comes through.
And I often think, you know, full respect for you both as a couple for dealing with
the things in your life that you have, because without each other, I see it as an outside
I know inside my own house that with all the stuff that happens outside that as much as
you have this beautiful bubble and cotton wall up on the walls and the cellies, no gaps,
stuff gets through and it's how you deal with it as a couple that kind of makes or
And I see I'm full of respect for you guys for that because I'm, you know, it's just
some of it's not easy and we're not, we can't bitch and moan about a lot of things, but
and we shouldn't, but because we have great lives, don't we?
And they're rich, they're rich lives in terms of everything, emotions and the people we
meet and the great things that come with great lives.
But for me, it's those little things that if you can manage to keep together, you know,
the pressures on a relationship are, you know, are pretty extreme and in many cases they,
you know, couples don't make it.
So for me, it's a very important thing to see and you guys are incredible.
Oh, well, I feel blessed that I picked Petey, so to speak.
I asked him out on a date.
I thought you could have done a bit better.
It was the best decision of my life to marry Petey because there's no way I would be who
I am today without him by my side.
We're very different.
He grounds me, I lighten him, but he is my life partner and when, if you're lucky enough
to find that, it's worth the work and yes, you're right, because relationships do take
It's always perfect.
I mean, I know I aggravate Petey no end because I'm messy.
There's crap everywhere in the house.
He gets up early to clean before I clean it up.
See, I don't know.
See, when we started the show together, you're always incredibly clean.
Is this something that's happened later?
No, my house is messy.
Something's happened to you.
I've always been a mess.
I've always been a shocking mess.
There was stuff always all over the desk.
There's crumbs everywhere.
But with relationships though, with, I mean, for you, of course, it's been, I mean, with
divorcing Cass and all of that, that was awful because it was so public and you've spoken
quite a bit about things you've learnt and lessons you've learnt already.
But how did you, I suppose, manage through some of that time and then finding love again?
Because there's a lot of people who make that decision to leave a relationship because it
isn't working, but they're thinking, I still want to find my person or my other half.
I think it's a very difficult thing, you know, and I think it's difficult for everyone involved
and it's very, very heightened emotions and you need to be able to lean on people through
that process because none of it is easy.
Breaking up, as the song goes, is hard to do and I think, you know, moving forward,
you've got to be able to, you know, sit back, get whatever help you need and want and desire
and sometimes you're not equipped to do that on your own, so put your hand up and reach
out and no matter what the breakup is and how it is.
I think that that's really important.
I think mental health is, you know, it's like you go to a mechanic for your car.
You need to tune up sometimes and I certainly needed it at the time, definitely.
And so what kind of help did you get?
I know for me asking for help was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but it's the
best thing I've ever done.
I think, you know, I think you can go down a few different paths.
I think initially a psychologist was something that I thought would be helpful and in the
end it wasn't quite.
I didn't need to be talking endlessly and going back every week and starting again and
talking out things as much as, and then I saw a psychiatrist because I wanted to connect
the mental dots a bit more and have a few more tools rather than, you know, the counselling
And in the end I think that was what worked for me and, you know, I never thought that
I'd be an expert at even the difference between psychology and psychiatry.
But again, it's nothing to be shamed about or feel shameful about because it's so important.
I mean, you get physical checkups and the mental aspects of life are, you know, I think
in many ways are far more important.
And, you know, to be able to get to know yourself and how you act and I think teaches you how
to be a better person outwardly.
Well, none of us can do it on our own.
And I think sometimes when you're used to being someone who organises things or has
a particular way of doing life, to then put your hand up and say, actually, I need someone
to come and give me some advice or help me through something is a big thing.
And I mean, for me, I know antidepressants have been a godsend.
I've gone back on them during COVID because I could feel myself creeping back into this
sense of, oh, but I'm so glad I did because I'm more me.
I think whatever you need to get through is what you need to do, is what you need.
And for me, I never needed the antidepressant medication because for some reason it kind
of dulled my senses a little bit.
And I found that difficult because the part of me that I liked in terms of work and performing
was not quite as maybe I should have been, maybe I should have been.
So you tried them then or you were looking at some side effects and thought maybe I don't
want to go down that path?
No, no, it was years ago that I, you know, I mean, I can't even remember when I had like
Maybe I've been on a plane or something.
That's not from a psychiatrist.
Taking a Valium on a plane.
See, there you go.
See how much of an expert I am?
To help you get out of sleep.
It just calms you down.
Someone said, here, take this.
Of course that's going to dull your senses.
Anyway, so I got dulled and I've never got out of it.
And you had a good sleep on the plane.
I've never felt so peaceful.
Because I'm not a good flyer.
Every time I'm on a plane now, let's get some Valium into me.
Well, I love you.
Thank you for being so open and for what you've said.
It's lovely to see you.
It's wonderful to see you.
Let's do it again soon.
Carl came with such an open heart to our chat and his honesty has helped me make sense of
that crazy, awful time.
Like Carl says, no one is perfect.
All we can do is try to be better next time.
Sometimes the hard conversations are worth it.
In my next episode, I speak with TV star Sophie Monk about love, work and rocking the skin
I was extremely insecure because naturally as a person I'm overboard sensitive.
Like I ring someone and worry about what I've said for like two days and they can't even
remember I've said it.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe, audio producer Chris Marsh,
executive producer Nick McClure, supervising producer Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.