A listener production.
Even though I didn't become an addict,
it still says something.
That's like, adventurous, sure.
But like, there was definitely a side to me
that wasn't looking after myself,
which is sort of sad, really,
because that shows, like,
even if you're just trying something,
there's a carelessness that isn't great, you know?
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe,
and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show,
a podcast that skips the small talk
and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between,
I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together
in these raw and honest conversations
about the things that matter.
Ione Sky is an it girl of our generation.
Cool, talented, and blazing a path
through Hollywood in the 80s and 90s.
Her first movie role was in River's Edge with Keanu Reeves,
and soon after that,
the iconic film Say Anything with John Cusack.
Her real life, though,
wasn't the fairy tale Hollywood script.
It was unconventional and messy,
and she grew up fast,
seeking emotional validation from acting
and her love affairs with Anthony Kiedis
and her marriage to Adam Horowitz from The Beastie Boys.
Not surprisingly, her memoir, Say Everything,
is now on the New York Times bestseller list.
And in this conversation, Ione shares it all,
including how she was experimenting with her sexuality,
hanging out with Madonna,
and partying with the supermodels.
And just wait until you hear
how her husband, Ben Lee,
got the confidence on their early dates.
Ione Sky, I have you in the studio
thanks to your beautiful husband, Ben Lee.
He's been organizing my Australian tour for the book.
And what a book it is, Say Everything.
I inhaled it over really two days.
I couldn't get enough of it,
and there's so much that I wanna ask you about.
Perhaps so we could start with,
you've lived such a life.
You're 54, you're the same age as me.
So there's a lot of, I suppose,
connections that I feel about you.
I watched you on film.
I looked up to you as this really cool it girl
of the Gen X group, so to speak.
And I wonder now, as a 54-year-old,
how you reflect back on that young girl.
Yeah, I wonder if I knew I was cool,
like all of those things I'm sort of thinking about.
But in a deeper sense,
writing the book has made me feel
like a lot happened at a young age.
And I know the Gen X generation,
it's sort of common to have like kind of just do things
at a young age and be kind of like, I don't know,
just sort of out there on your own,
like living almost like little grownups
when you were young.
But yeah, definitely writing the book,
I just am amazed.
And also having daughters, I'm like, wow, that was a lot.
And in a few years, there's certain years
that so much happened work-wise and in my private life
that it was like whiplash for me, just like, whoa,
I can't believe this happened, that happened, this happened.
So yeah, it's good to see almost from an outside point
of view, when you look at it as a story,
to have kind of like, oh, I wish not all those things
happened to me, I was so, you know, just young.
And you were so young and it wasn't just a lot happening,
you were very famous as well.
And there's a pressure that comes with that.
And especially when you are young,
and I wonder how you managed to navigate through that.
Yeah, there was a lot of expectation.
I mean, when it's happening, you just think,
oh, this is great, I love working it.
And I was aware it gave me confidence
that I didn't really have in school,
like I wasn't academically inclined.
So like working gave me a kind of like,
this is what I'm into and I'm working and making money.
So an identity, was it?
An identity, yeah.
But I did feel a responsibility to keep it going.
And I didn't let myself just sort of hang out and have fun.
I was like sort of a little worker.
And then later, kind of in my first marriage
was when I was like, wait, I wanna go out to clubs.
I wanna do, you know, I wanna just like be wild.
So yeah, I think I've put a lot of pressure on myself
to keep working at a young age and I didn't,
you know, it's all I kind of knew and was doing.
I wasn't in school anymore.
And so at a young age, 15,
you were cast alongside Keanu Reeves,
who also was an unknown.
And you were in River's Edge.
Give us a sense for what that was like.
This was a movie that I loved.
Such a great indie film, but gritty.
But there you are alongside Keanu
and you're 15 years of age and you've got a crush on him.
And you're working though.
How do you do that?
Well, I was still a teenager.
So I was still just having crushes
and feeling kind of insecure and just, you know,
But I did, I think it's in the book where this older,
I mean, he probably was in his twenties.
To me, he seemed like a man, said, you know,
I had such a crush and I was distracted.
And he said, I like the costume designer,
but I'm not going to ask her out until after the film
because you never know.
You might just be just the odd hours creating together.
You might think you like someone, but you might not.
So he gave me that advice, which I don't think I took ever,
but I recognized it was wise.
So yeah, I just couldn't control my crush.
Well, how could you?
You're a 15 year old girl.
There's Keanu Reeves who is incredibly sexy
and unavailable and just everything.
And then you have this kissing scene with him
and he eats an onion.
I know, that was so funny.
I was like, is this a prank?
But, and it was also so funny because for some reason
he said, or I knew that he had bit into it
and was just like eating a raw onion that afternoon,
which I thought was so odd, but also like what?
But yeah, he ate an onion and it made me sad
because I thought I didn't care about the breath.
I just thought, well, he obviously wasn't thinking
about this love scene coming up or kissing scene coming up
or else he wouldn't have had the onion.
And I was like counting the minutes till we got to kiss.
And then you hopped in a sleeping bag
with him for a sex scene.
I know, they would not do that now, I don't think.
I think they would use somebody else or yeah.
Intimacy coaches.
Oh yeah, they did not have those.
Luckily the producers are these two women
that Sarah Pillsbury and Midge Stamford
who are really cool and they were kind of like on it
because there was actually a scene where I was changing
and it was gonna be like a topless scene.
And they were like, we are filming it.
And they said, we don't need that.
And this is not like a teen,
one of those sexploitation teen movies.
Like, let's not have you have this changing scene
It's not a Brian DePalma film
where there's like girls in a shower, soaping up.
So they were kind of on it, like kind of,
but now it's so different.
And also too at the time,
you had to emancipate from your mom.
I mean, to me that is phenomenal as well
as a 15 year old girl, because Hollywood wanted you
to not have to have the restrictions of school,
of having breaks.
So you are 15, but you're working as an adult.
I know, it's interesting.
That was very common.
And I just spoke to Drew Barrymore, I did her show.
And she said, for me, I was like,
I didn't really notice much of a difference
being emancipated,
because it felt like the hours were relatively the same.
And because I never knew being pulled for school on a set.
So it's just sort of all I knew.
And it didn't feel like I was being overworked.
But for her, she really liked it
because she wanted to separate from her mother
So I didn't realize that actually it was sort of helpful.
I thought it was a sinister thing
that the Hollywood system were like,
and I'm sure their motivations weren't great,
but for some young kids who needed to get their money
in order from their parents, it worked out, I guess.
And Drew Barrymore was sort of part of a group
of other cool young things who you would hang out with.
She was, what, a 12-year-old girl when you first met her?
Yeah, I met her at this club, Helena's,
that was a crossover club in a way that,
her mother and my mother were similar
where they knew kind of Hollywood people.
And this was almost like a dinner club,
and it would be like Jack Nicholson and like,
I don't know, a lot of people went there,
and it was sort of one of those cool spots.
And my mom would go there.
So I guess I was there, yeah, I was there as a teenager,
because it was like the cool spot to go,
like very in the know.
And she was there, which I was probably 16,
and she was like 12, so that was a little bit wild.
But she was so sweet. A little bit wild.
Well, she wasn't like wasted or anything I didn't see.
I guess she was if you read her book.
But she was precocious and would say shocking things,
but it was like, she just was so sweet that, you know,
I mean, I've felt, I guess I felt protective
and like, this is strange, she's so young.
I don't know, there's something so ethereal
and sweet about her that I don't know.
I just was like, nothing bad can happen to her.
Anyway, yeah, that was wild.
She's very young.
At the same time though, you say she was very young,
but Ione, you were young.
And you were like this sort of little adult, really.
You felt this expectation.
You're in this grownup world.
You're making money for your family, for your mom, Enid.
And I wonder with your mom, in your book,
she strikes me very much.
She was soft love and she was a free spirit.
She was never a stage mom, was she?
No, it's so funny.
She never was a stage mom.
I mean, she really enjoyed when my brother and I
were working and back then it was so fun
because anytime we worked and our friends worked
and the people we knew,
we would always visit each other on our movie sets
or always like hang around.
And we stopped doing that a certain point.
I don't know why,
but everyone was kind of doing everything altogether.
She was baffled by our ability to perform
because she thought it was so brave
and she's just not like that.
But she was very, she wasn't authoritative,
but she was very careful.
Like, you know, you have to eat.
We always have like went to the doctor.
We had to go to bed.
She was, you know, like-
And like if, when we were older,
she was like, if you're smoking pot, do not drive.
She dealt pot though, didn't she?
She dealt pot, yeah.
But she was very like careful, concerned
and very like protective of us, like a mama bear.
So she was always just like, you know,
stay home and told us about safe sex.
And so certain things she was just kind of
wanted us to be safe.
But, you know, if she said no, we never,
we did not believe it, you know, that kind of thing.
Like she was just very, my grandparents were always like,
you should be more strict with them.
Like my grandparents always say, listen to your mother.
Well, your grandparents who were in Florida,
one particular story that just made me laugh in the book was
cause your mom, she is such a beauty still.
And she had an affair with Warren Beatty in the 1950s,
but that continued through a lot of her life.
But he would ring your grandparents to,
cause he'd remembered that phone number
to find out where your mom was.
Yeah, it's like a photogenic memory I think he has.
Like he just couldn't, my mother was like,
he remembered my number from when I was, you know,
I mean, that black book he must've had,
cause that's so mental.
Like, I don't know, that was the last time in the 80s,
but that was, I was already a teenager.
And I was like, what are you doing?
For me to hear this, it is so mental.
Cause I think about all of these big sort of Hollywood names
and the glamour and the stars,
but for you it was sort of every day.
And I wonder how you process that
and where it was that that bravery came from
that you talk about.
Yeah, I mean, we still were excited
when somebody was on TV,
if they happened to be over at the house or something,
you know, I grew up in Hollywood
and that definitely was peppered with celebrities
here and there, which was fun.
But yeah, I don't know where I get the bravery from.
I honestly don't.
I think I just push myself through.
I think it just felt like
I didn't have a lot of other opportunities.
So a part of me thought this is my opportunity
when I had the chance to audition.
And I just made myself do it
because I felt like it's worth pushing through the fear
cause this can be something good.
And luckily it wasn't like some creepy Nickelodeon show
where you hear the kids weren't treated well.
Like thankfully most of the experiences were really good.
And when they weren't,
it was only cause the quality wasn't great or something,
but the people were pretty decent.
So I lucked out in that aspect.
Yeah, I just pushed through my fear to have the experiences.
And which often I think is the way it's so important
through all of our lives
to keep pushing through that fear.
But often that can come at a cost
because you do talk about the rush that you were in,
especially in your early life, the hurry to do things.
So you weren't able to be present and in the moment.
And I wonder what it is you were rushing from
or what were you frightened of?
My mother didn't like school.
She didn't do well in school.
And I didn't have a support in that area.
And I had these stepfathers
and it wasn't the worst experiences you could have,
but I didn't have a kind of supportive home life
So I was, I think rushing to find something safe
or to find something that I could do some stability.
Yeah, there was a lot of being enamored
with like the rich kids or the preppy kids.
Cause I think growing up in a more Bohemian,
kind of felt chaotic and what can I,
where's the order here?
What can I hold onto?
And in deep sense, my mom was very, very good
and I felt deeply loved and like I could always go to her.
But in just the day-to-day thing felt a bit chaotic
and what's our plan here?
I definitely was like, she's a single mother usually.
So I think I was looking just for like some sort of
something to latch onto.
And through the backdrop of all of this
is your absent father, Donovan, the folk legend.
And he left before you were born.
And really that seems to have had
an enormous emotional impact on your life.
Yeah, cause it's weird.
It's almost like, it's not like an adopted person,
but it's sort of, it's something that was so half of my,
you know, parent, the parental units, not there.
And just so hard to kind of understand
how that affected me.
And so writing the book, I kind of was able to really go
into how I felt about things at the time
when I wrote about the childhood stuff,
I tried to write from the child
and then graduate to each age group.
So the mentality trying to kind of make it different
for each age group, it was just what I knew.
And then when I saw other kids with fathers
that started hitting me like, oh wow,
they call their father daddy and they sit on their lap
and the dads do things for them.
And then I just started comparing and thinking,
where's my thing?
Where's my father?
But yeah, he was always this kind of vague thing
or a song on the records, you know, I would just hear him.
And so it was just a strange, very strange for a long time.
And I can't begin to comprehend how it must've felt
as a young girl and then a teenager
to hear your dad singing these songs of love.
And you're thinking, where am I in that song?
I know, what a lesson like in artists
or people who do great things,
but then in other areas are lacking in certain ways.
And it's just like when you're young, you think,
and even now I still tend to go in that direction
or feel like when I hear of another celebrity,
like, oh no, don't tell me they've done that.
I love them, you know.
It's so hard to separate or realize
how complicated people are
in that they can do incredible things
and maybe struggle with interpersonal relationships
or the other way around, you know.
Or even I have friends who like are amazing dressers,
but I don't love how they decorate their house.
And I'm like, how can they dress so well?
And then they pick this furniture, you know.
It's just whatever, it's just like people
who can't do it all,
but they can tap in to something in their art.
And, you know, he's, I don't wanna like only defend him
cause I don't agree with how he raised, you know, us
or didn't raise us, but he's definitely in his own world,
you know, his own spiritual world.
There's a part in the book where I felt really outraged
on your behalf where he wanted a paternity test.
I still, it's so weird.
I still haven't asked.
My theory is either he saw I was working.
I had one more year.
He paid every year.
He paid, I mean, every month or whatever it was.
Either he saw I was working and he just was like,
she doesn't need it anymore.
Or he truly thought that I wasn't his
or I don't know what was going on.
And I kind of like for some reason have never asked him
or my stepmother what that was about.
So I just have theories.
Why haven't you asked them?
I feel like I should before it's too late.
I guess, cause I feel like it won't be satisfying.
Like their side of things, there's very, he said,
she said a little bit with my mom's version
and their version.
And because people believe what they believe,
I just feel like it might upset me.
Like it'll just might be like some kind of weird answer
and it won't be satisfying or something.
So I'm just avoiding it.
And it won't be that fairy tale answer.
No, not like in the movies where they're like,
oh my God, I'm so sorry.
You obviously were his daughter all along.
Like it's never, it's definitely,
I found my own version of amazing moments with them,
with my father and my stepmother.
But it's not like in the movies with the rap,
the scene of reconciliation or anything, yeah.
And the slow-mo, do you think your, I suppose,
relationship or your struggles with your dad
has defined why you've fallen in love with musicians?
Yeah, it's the combination of my father being a musician
and my mother loved musicians.
So I think that's part of it too.
And there's a pretty, I do know some actresses,
I feel like Winona Ryder liked musicians
and some musicians like actresses or actors.
I don't know, I think it's probably the example of my mother
just knowing she loves musicians
and then my father being one.
So I think I just like saw that and it just, you know,
that's what I was doing myself, yeah.
As a 16 year old, you saw Anthony Kiedis
from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
And he was one of your, you call them short kings,
that you're sort of.
Oh yeah, that I don't know where that comes from.
Attracted to short men.
It's so funny when I realized that.
I mean, I've definitely had, I guess, tall,
I don't know what that is.
There must be something and I have no idea.
Maybe it's like less intimidating or something.
I feel like men who aren't that tall
have to be really, there's an intensity.
They're making up for something
and they've got this like, they're very intense
and maybe I like that.
Well, there was definitely an intensity
with Anthony, wasn't there?
Yeah, he's very intense.
And that was something I still don't understand,
but I'm starting to understand what I was doing there,
I did like Flea and I was intrigued with the whole scene.
Flea in the Red Hot Chili Peppers scene,
even though that was an older scene
that was more edgy than what I was used to in a way,
I was intrigued by it,
even though I knew it was a bit much for me.
So I think it was just this curiosity,
kind of like kids when they hang out
with the bad kids in school,
that was sort of my version,
that interest in what are these guys up to?
And it was sort of, I knew it was like kind of dangerous
and I don't know, it was just an intrigue.
But it was dangerous, there was...
There's a part in the book where you say
you felt like the oldest teenager in New York.
Tell me about that particular time.
I was just in over my head.
I've totally got caught up in the whole dynamic,
if you're with an addict thing,
like where I felt I had to, I don't know,
just I was just caught in that trap of that experience
of being with someone who was so,
having such a hard time in their life.
So I trapped until I finally wasn't,
when I finally realized,
oh, I don't have to like worry about this person
I don't need to do this, but I thought I needed to.
But despite everything he,
there was a lot of love there and laughs and stuff.
I mean, it was the most stressful few years of my life,
but, and again, and his mother is so amazing.
She asked if she could read the book.
And I was like, it's gonna be painful,
but if you want, you can.
So I think that was hard.
That was one of the hard things that the few people that
I didn't show the book to before,
I showed the book to a lot of people,
but it is kind of, you know,
it'll be hard for her to read how he was,
but she understands he had,
he was having a very hard time.
It's almost like you dismiss it in a way.
It sounds like you were 16.
He was, I think 24.
And he had a heroin addiction.
Well, he did, I'm not gonna defend him,
but he did feel bad about me being around it
and around him at the time.
But I was so sweet and nice.
Also, obviously he likes younger women and still does.
But, and you know, it was a different time,
the age gap thing, but also that doesn't mean it was right.
That was more common and people didn't really think
it was as strange as it is now to see,
but it still is not great
because the choices you're making,
I mean, he was making just as bad, you know,
unsafe sex and all these things,
but at 16, you're still a kid.
And when you're 24, it's like you're being destructive.
But most of my group of friends
were quite destructive in certain ways,
not all as terrible drug addicts as he was at the time.
But that's why when I met Ben,
not that he was the only person who wasn't destructive,
I've had other people,
but he was so good at taking care of himself.
And he would never have unprotected sex or any of that.
And I was just like, oh, thank God.
Cause I don't know, that was something about the time
the Gen X people was very, at least my group,
I mean, we were not very careful.
But again, you're 16 years of age.
And here is this older man who you're madly in love with,
who you think you can save is injecting needles
and having unprotected sex with you
and putting you at risk.
You had to have HIV test.
You also had a termination.
And he wasn't around.
No, I mean, he was not in a great space mentally.
He did feel bad about it.
But for sure, at least if you're dating someone who's older,
you would hope that they would have some sense
and be like, wait a minute, this is not good for you.
Yeah, that's real.
That's a real thing.
And he wouldn't let you try heroin?
No, he was so angry when I was like, what is it like?
We had a massive fight.
We were actually biking and he sped away.
He definitely didn't have a great control of his anger
I mean, he never hit me,
but there's a story of pouring Coca-Cola on me
at a Lakers game.
So he didn't have the control.
So he sped away on his bike.
And then I caught up to him and he's like, never.
He was like, never do this.
Because I think his ex-girlfriend got into it
and he just felt terrible about it.
But you did try it, didn't you?
Yeah, I watched this documentary called
something with the nineties
and it was all these actors in the nineties.
And it was, again, I don't wanna say it was a different time
and that means it was okay.
Cause I feel like heroin and crack are like the most taboo
and all the other ones are like, well, if you try them,
it's like, whatever.
But it was kind of around and yeah,
like there was some supermodels and whatever,
like people trying it.
And that's the thing I think at first,
it looks sort of like, everyone looks okay.
I mean, Anthony clearly wasn't looking okay.
But then these other people,
I guess that's the peer pressure thing.
You're like, they seem fine.
And then of course, cut to like four months later
and you're like, oh, they're actually not fine.
But I weirdly lucked out.
I don't know why I just had this like,
this thought, it felt so good.
I was like, you're not meant to feel this good.
Like in life, like if there's like an afterlife,
maybe you can feel that good.
But we're meant to be kind of not,
I don't believe we're meant to be just struggling,
struggling, struggling.
But there was something in me that was like,
this is just, you're meant to just kind of be here,
you know, and not do that.
So I don't know why I lucked out, but yeah, I tried it.
And then I thought the next day, I'll do this every day.
And then I just never did.
I don't know, I just lucked out.
As you say, I mean, you're so lucky.
And I listened to you say all of this.
I'm so straight, like in the sense of like, I hear that.
And there's a part of me that recoils with, oh my goodness.
Well, it's destructive.
Even though I didn't become an addict,
it still says something that's like adventurous, sure,
but like destructive.
There was definitely a side to me
that wasn't looking after myself,
which is sort of sad and quite sad really,
because that shows like,
even if you're just trying something,
there's a carelessness that isn't great, you know?
And so what was that that made you do that, do you think?
I mean, yeah, I don't know.
I guess the flip side is that the stronger pull
is to take care of myself.
So if it's a sliding scale,
like I have the side that does take care of myself
and my mother does as well.
Like she, you know, emotionally
didn't have great relationships at certain points,
but she's never been an addict
and she always like exercised and loved health food
and she just sort of has a good social life
with her friends and she's kind of,
so I think that example is really important
and I had enough of that,
but probably her relationships with men
wasn't good example and it did take her a while
to kind of get on her feet emotionally.
So I don't know, I mean,
I don't wanna say it's all parents,
but, you know, it can be, you know,
what you grew up seeing and, you know, so,
but luckily my brother and I both always go toward
the light for lack of a better word.
Even if we get kind of in a bad situation romantically
or this or that, we always kind of have this pull
to kind of like be healthy.
And you and your brother, you're so tight, you're so close
and during the 90s, you know,
you were parting with supermodels.
He dated Kate Moss.
You'd get on planes for a party from New York to London,
just for the night.
Give us a sense of what that world was like.
Oh man, I mean, I was a very spacey kind of just,
I went on the coattails.
My brother was just, came out of the womb,
just like tap dancing and connecting
and he knew the business.
Like he knew who people were if we went out to a party
and be like, oh, that's this producer
and that makes sense why they did this movie
and dah, dah, dah, dah.
And it took me forever to understand that side of things.
And he just always saw where the fun was
and the scene was.
And so I just like went along with him.
Like just, he took me everywhere and it was great.
I never had to know what was happening.
He always knew what was happening
and our whole group of friends would just follow.
He was the Pied Piper of social fun.
So we'd just follow him around and we'd say,
come with me, we're going to London, we're picking up.
That was funny because it was Kate and Naomi Campbell
and they were so late to the flight.
And I am somebody, as spacey as I am, I am early.
I like to be at the airport early.
I like to show up early on appointments.
I was like, couldn't believe it.
And we made the flight.
They were just like, I was like, how do people do that?
How do people just like show up so late to the flight?
Anyway, it was just so fun
and I didn't have to think too much.
And that was really relaxing at the time.
And also during this time, you explored your sexuality
and there was some pretty incredible people also
that came into your orbit at that time.
But Donna took, in your words, a small shine to you
and she introduced you to some pretty special people.
She was, yeah, she was just everyone.
It was really funny when we did that job,
there was five women in our part of the movie
because it was a movie, it had four parts to the movie
and our part with Madonna had these women.
And in the makeup trailer in the morning,
she was getting her makeup put on
on the one side of the room.
And all of us were just craning our heads, like watching her.
She's so mesmerizing.
And we just wanted to see her getting her makeup put on.
So finally the makeup artist and she moved the next day,
they weren't in the trailer and we're like, why?
And then our makeup artist is like,
cause you guys won't sit still, like we have to do,
like everyone's making her uncomfortable.
So she was, everyone was so intrigued with her, of course.
So yeah, Ingrid Casares who they had dated
was her friend, best friend at the time
after they stopped dating.
And yeah, Ingrid, that was kind of interesting
cause it was like a properly gay woman
whereas my other flings had been with people
who literally, even this woman, Alice Temple,
who I gave the book to is in the book,
the first girl I was like head over heels for.
She was like, oh my God, you made me sound so cool.
And I like wasn't out of the closet then.
I mean, it was so clear to everybody if you saw pictures,
she's a gay woman, she looks like a gay woman.
But most of the people weren't out.
So that was interesting being with Ingrid
who was just confident, just like, I'm a lesbian.
And that was kind of nice actually
cause there was no like feeling of just not knowing
and hiding and all of that.
And what about Jenny?
Jenny Shimizu, how did I even meet, maybe through Madonna.
I think that's where I met her.
It's hard to remember exactly with some people.
She was just the best.
She's just the funniest.
She was just so strong and hysterically funny and nice.
And she was out of the closet.
And didn't you say she helped you
really let your lesbian flag fly?
So yeah, she sexually was confident and open
and wasn't like freaked out about her sexuality.
So that gave me permission or just that was so great
to see someone who was just not freaked out
by exploring sexuality.
And that's something that's taken me a long time
but it's nice seeing examples of women like that
who aren't freaked out by it
and are kind of excited by sexuality.
You say it's taken you some time.
Where are you at now?
Now I'm probably the best place.
There's all these like talks now about gen X women
and cause of baby girl and severance
and these sort of movies about older women
who are now perceived as sexual beings even past 45.
So I do think that thing of just you start accepting yourself
and doing things for yourself
and you're not just sleeping with someone
to get them in your life or pleasing them
and all of those things that I did believe it or not.
Like I seem like I'm just was this open sexual person
and my friends would say, I envy you, you're so open
but I was not doing these things for myself
a lot of the time.
I was doing them to kind of just be in a thing
with somebody or get them to like me.
And so now I do it as a way, not like exercising
but for me, like this is good for me
to have a healthy sex life, it's good for me.
And of course it's a great way to connect.
And also as well, during this time
you're still terribly young and you were married
and it was almost sort of like you're in this adult world
but you were having this opportunity to explore
and you were unfaithful to your husband.
And that was something that you struggled with.
Yeah, I probably should have.
I wanted safety so much that I got married.
I wanted, we both were my ex-husband
and I were both famous and it just felt like-
And he's Adam of course.
Adam from the Beastie Boys, Adam Horowitz,
there was another Adam.
Yes, and I think being married just felt like a way
to kind of buffer ourselves against the world.
We'd have this cozy marriage
and it probably could have just ended after two years
and that would have been fine
because I didn't start cheating, it was fine.
And then I just, if I had been brave enough,
confident enough, we would have ended the marriage
and I would have just been single at 23,
which is insane because I got married so young.
But I couldn't let go of the comfort
and I loved him so much
and he was protecting me from the world.
So I wanted my cake and eat it too as they say.
And that was brutal.
I felt terrible, terrible shame, guilt.
But also you're looking for that emotional stability
that you had been yearning for your entire life.
I mean, no one's life is a fairy tale
but I think what's so beautiful about your life
is that then Ben Lee came into it.
And he really is sort of the person for you, isn't he?
And it taught me at a young age that I liked being married
and I liked a nice husband.
And then Ben, I just thought, well, maybe that was it.
I ruined it back then.
And then Ben Lee comes along who like,
is just everything that I want.
Like creative, exciting, smart,
adventurous, analytical, like everything.
And yeah, and a musician.
And a short king as you would say.
Yes, and he's so supportive and it just, he's so great.
And he's bravely present.
They're the words that you use to describe him
unlike probably perhaps some other
emotional connections in your life.
Yeah, Ben is very interested in,
yeah, just like the world and being here
and enjoying the world now.
Like when we met, I was just only talking about the 80s
and like only nostalgic,
reminiscing about the good old days.
And he was like, this is boring.
Don't you wanna talk about that funny thing that happened?
Cause we actually were friendly
and had a lot of similar friends and stories.
He was like, it's fine, but I don't wanna only live
in the past when the glory days I'm like interested in now.
And so that was also really cool.
Share that story about when Ben was a bit nervous
before he came around.
It's too funny because Adam Levine, who I guess has meant,
it's a funny story that cause he's,
I guess not great with women.
Something happened, I don't know.
But it's funny cause the Sunset Marquis bar
is a very rock and roll place that you'd see,
who I don't know, like the Guns N' Roses types of people.
So he went to get a drink before meeting me on a date
when he knew we were gonna like fool around
cause we had gone on a few dates and we'd made out.
And then of course the next one you assume
you're gonna make out again.
And he was nervous cause I already had a kid.
I was eight, I'm eight years older.
And Adam Levine was like, it's just so funny.
He's just like, here dude, have a shot.
You're gonna be fine.
But it's funny that this kind of like
super male musician-y guy, I mean, super male.
He's not the most macho guy in the world, Adam Levine,
more than whatever, but that was really cute.
So he gave Ben a pep talk and a shot.
And then Ben was like, cause he did seem very confident
when we did meet up.
And you had the best sex ever, didn't you?
I know, cause the night, a few days before we kind of
made out on my couch in my house.
And I was like, oh, that was pleasant,
but I guess we don't have chemistry.
And then that night I was like, okay.
That's what I tell people when they're like,
I think that I'm not interested in this person.
They're too nice, they're too this.
And I'm like, just like, once you fool around,
you're gonna be interested in them.
Like once, anyway, I don't know if that's the best advice,
but you never know, talking to someone
versus fooling around, it could be a game changer.
You've got two daughters and you share
a whole lot about your life.
I've got two girls as well.
And I haven't shared as much about my life with them
as you have with your daughters.
And I wonder how you manage that,
or do you worry about what they think?
Well, they haven't read the book, which is good.
I'm happy, especially for my 15 year old.
Both of them don't love seeing me in movies and stuff,
cause they want me as mom.
So I said you could read the book and we'll talk about it,
but they both haven't, which I'm like, phew.
Are you sure they haven't though?
Well, my 15 year old hasn't for sure.
And I think the 23 year old told me she did
to make me feel good, but I actually don't think she has.
I think it's like, they just don't want to,
but I do tell them, they know some things.
And I just, I say that my instincts were not often
out of like a good place.
So I was destructive and I made choices
that were not for me a lot of the time.
And I've seen that they're pretty good.
Like so far they have more boundaries with friends.
Like when some friends are sharing stuff,
they like tell an adult, like one friend was sharing stuff
that was a bit heavy and they like told me.
And I was like, I'm so glad cause you know,
you can be a good friend,
but some things are over your head
and adults step in da da da da.
So it is a nice time of communication for teenagers.
But yeah, I'll ask the 23 year old,
are you sure you haven't read it?
Cause you know, but they, but I do sort of say like,
I've been trying to get to a place
of where I'm taking care of myself emotionally
better and better.
So that's, I think how you talk to them about it.
We're never really quite there yet,
but what I think is really quite telling is the life
that you've now built for yourself and your family
is really quite different to the life that you began.
Or the world that you grew up in.
Yeah, I like to think I took the good and left the bad.
Like I have the maternal,
my mother's super maternal just naturally.
And I've got that and her sense of bringing in community
and friends, you know, and I don't know that
that's kind of a great thing that she did.
So yeah, I think hopefully I've taken the good
that I had as a kid and left the stuff
that was too, you know, gnarly.
Thank you for sharing so much with us.
Your book is extraordinary with the song,
the Peter Gabriel song, In Your Eyes,
which of course was such an iconic moment
in the film that you did, Say Anything.
When you hear that song now, what does it mean for you?
Oh, I'm so happy to be tied.
It took me a second to realise,
well, cause the boombox scene in this movie
where the song is played from the boombox scene
and say anything.
It's like what became more of an iconic scene
as the years went by.
So just so nice, like my friends will say,
I just heard In Your Eyes on the radio
and I called you and thought of you.
So to be tied into that song in any way is so incredible.
I mean, think of any song that you could be associated with.
That's like such a brilliant, beautiful, open, loving song.
So I'm just so happy.
I kind of can't believe it.
So that's just like a treat.
So would you say almost in a way,
it's like you're so open and loving now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was great.
I mean, that movie was such a good safe space for me
and it still continues to be such a good memory.
And as I get older and I've written
about the jobs I've done,
I just think that movie was so good for me
and such a warm, great experience.
And yeah, and now I'd like to think I am as open
and direct as that song is.
Thank you so much, Ioni.
What a treat to be able to talk with Ioni
about her extraordinary life.
And you know what else I thought was so sensational
was to hear her talk about how she's at this point
She's 54, like I am,
and she's really crafted this beautiful,
extraordinary life for herself and her family.
I really recommend her beautiful memoir, Say Everything.
There is so much in there.
It really is something very special
and she opens up her heart to us all.
And just like Ioni,
we have so many fabulous guests for you
on the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
And it would mean so much to me
if you subscribe to the show.
It's free and it means all of these great conversations
will be quicker for you to access in the app
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And you know how much I love hearing from you all on Insta.
I love hearing your feedback on the interviews,
things that have moved you.
Keep sending me those messages,
keep sending me those DMs
because I'd love to know who you would like to hear from
It is so exciting having you as part of our podcast community,
our big talk show podcast community.
And if there's someone in your life
who wants to join this community,
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So spread the word of the Jess Rowe big talk show podcast.
And if you enjoyed this episode with Ione,
I think you'll love my conversation
with Alison Bray Datto.
I'll have a link in the show notes for you.
It was interesting telling Cam because there was still,
it was still trying to shake the shame from it,
was still really difficult.
It was still, yeah, wrapped up with a bit of shame
and an embarrassment somehow
that I had been ruined that way
and affected in such a deep way.
And I didn't wanna be that way.
I didn't wanna be, feel like I was broken,
but a part of me felt like I was permanently broken
from that experience.
The Jess Rowe big talk show is hosted by me, Jess Rowe,
executive producer, Nick McClure.
She's a wonderful leopard lady,
audio imager, Nat Marshall,
supervising producer, Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time
on the stuff that doesn't matter.