I think we're here to learn. And some of those lessons are difficult lessons,
but they're all part of that bigger picture. And ultimately, we want to find what our purpose is.
You know, why are we here? And in loss, it's not just acceptance. For me, it was really important
to find meaning. And I think that part of what I've found in that meaning is finding a greater
sense of purpose and why I'm here. Hi, I'm Jess Rowe, and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show,
a podcast that skips the small talk and goes big and deep. From love to loss and everything in
between, I want to show you a different side of people who seem to have it all together
in these raw and honest conversations about the things that matter. I don't know about you,
but I really crave connective conversations. So I'm going to dig deep to give you a new
window into the souls of the people we're curious to get to know and understand.
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real-life flaws and vulnerabilities
that make us human. Indira Naidoo is a writer, broadcaster, and host of ABC Radio's Nightlife.
Over her 30-year award-winning journalistic career, her face and beautiful voice have become
well known to many Australians. She's passionate about the power of nature to heal tears in our
universe and shares her story about how a magnificent fig tree and the Milky Way helped
her to deal with the death of her sister. Before we get started, I want to let you know our
conversation touches on suicide. Indira, what a treat to talk to you. It's so wonderful to
be with you too, Jess. Oh my goodness, because I looked up to you so much because I was reading
the news on Channel 10 when you were anchoring both ABC News and then SBS News. Good evening,
I'm Indira Naidoo coming up in the world news tonight. Governor Bush claims victory,
but the courts might still have the final say. And you were sort of very much an idol of mine.
Oh, that's very sweet. Well, I have to admit I was pretty much in awe of you. I mean, we did
it basically around the same time together, didn't we? We did. In the late 90s and through that period.
It was an exciting time for news broadcasting as well. Very different to how it is now.
Oh, I think so. Newsrooms were big and well-resourced. The stories were incredible,
such variety. It was good. And I remember going to a party that you had at your house.
Yeah. And I felt so cool because I didn't even actually get to talk to you, but I remember
thinking, oh, this is Indira's house. I'm sorry we didn't get to see each other.
I think I was a bit shy. I still am quite, it's funny, I'm quite a shy person sometimes. And the
other thing, too, that I remember so clearly, I had a voice coach who would help me with my voice.
Yeah. Especially when I first started reading news and you were our go-to person.
Oh. It was. It was your voice. She was like, now. Oh dear. Yes. Indira clones coming out of the
place. Remember, because when I started, everything was Yarn Event clones. You remember that era,
too? Oh. Everyone had a voice that sounded like Yarn Event. I so wanted to be Yarna.
When I grew up, I still want to be Yarna. Yeah. She's pretty cool.
Yeah. But your voice, there's something really special about your voice.
Oh, thank you. My husband wouldn't say the same thing, especially when I'm annoyed with him.
No. That's very sweet.
I can't imagine you ever doing that, Indira. Because it's velvety. Your voice has got this
beautiful resonance. And I just so clearly remember my voice coach saying, now, you know,
we need to get some of that resonance and that sound in your voice.
Oh, well, that's lovely.
Because what was it that attracted you initially to broadcasting?
I've always been fascinated with interesting ideas and communicating those interesting ideas.
And of course, when it comes to that, the platform you have to go for is television and radio. I
mean, they are just so worldwide and they go everywhere into everyone's rooms and heads. So
yeah, that was the fascination with it. To be able to have this connection
and conduit straight into people's living rooms is a lot of privilege and a lot of influence.
It is, isn't it? Because people are inviting you into their homes.
And I don't think you can get much higher praise than that.
No, because look at all the people that you don't want to come into your home.
You're pretty stringent about the people that come and go, particularly now post COVID.
So yes, when someone switches on a television or a radio and tunes into you,
that is the ultimate privilege, because I know that I don't do that easily to many,
you know, other people who are broadcasting. So it is a great privilege.
And also, I think too, you're a storyteller. And I think there's something
really special about being a storyteller.
And that's what I quite love about ideas is that it's the way you wrap those ideas into the story
to make them compelling. Because you can tell a story about anything really, you know, I guess,
especially coming through international journalism, there were some pretty terrible
stories that we had to give to people and package in a way that they would tune in every night,
you know, and there'd be massacres in Srebrenica or terrible things going on in East Timor.
How do you get people to tune in night after night, when the information is so dark and so
heavy and seems so hopeless? So one of the things that I guess I didn't realise at the time I was
being trained for in terms of storytelling is how do you tell an unpalatable, a hard, a difficult,
dark story that still has a sense of hope, and that there's going to be joy around the corner,
which now that the space between the stars has come out, I realise that that's the same
storytelling technique that I use for the book. Which you have done so beautifully. Thank you.
In your book. I adored reading this. I read it in one sitting because you do talk about things
that are hard to talk about, and I would imagine even harder to write about. Yeah, it was the most
difficult thing I've ever had to do. There were not only hours, but days that I'd sit at my desk
with my laptop in front of me and frozen, absolutely frozen, never experienced anything like it
in all my 30 years of journalism, writing books, the whole thing. It was such an emotional block,
the loss, the grief was so intense that the act of finding words for emotions that I couldn't even
express inside of me just made it so impossible. And then there'd be this amazing breakthrough,
sort of three days of doing that. And then the emotion that I couldn't put a name to,
something would tap out on my fingers and I'd see the word and I'd think, that's what I'm feeling.
How did that word come out? Where did it come from? And with that, there was a release.
There was a sense of, oh, that's it. That's the feeling that I haven't been able to express.
And that was how the book happened step by step by step with just a lot of pain, a lot of blocking,
and then this amazing release and sense of sometimes joy. Oh, right. That's the feeling
I'm feeling. I'm feeling guilty or I'm feeling just terrible remorse or why did this have to
happen? She was such a beautiful human being, you know? And then it would come. So for me,
the act of writing actually helped me heal. Because of course you write about the death
of your beautiful sister by suicide and how you have tried to heal yourself through that.
And you call your sister Star Girl in the book. Why did you do that? I was doing a walk through
the Botanic Gardens and I tell a lot more of that story in this wonderful tree that I met during
that walk that really became this central wise figure that helped me heal. And I'd been doing
that walk for months actually, never noticed the tree. And then one day I stopped, just happened
to be under the tree and this extraordinary green radiance just extended over me. And I looked up
and I realised I was standing under this amazing tree. It was like 20 metres wide. It had these
incredible roots, these sort of dinosaur claws almost I described and really ancient and just
rolling down the side of the cliff. And it was one of the mornings where there was a real block
in me to writing this book. And every time I thought of my sister and her name, Manika,
I just couldn't write. It was just too raw, you know, the loss. And every time it was just too
hard and I was standing under the tree. And it said to me, I really believe this, it said call
her something else. Call her a name that when you describe her, she's just a little bit more
removed, a bit of a character. So you can become a narrator telling a story. Call her Stargirl.
That's how it came to me. And I went, yes, that's what she was. She was a star in my life.
And it helped me, you know, tell the story without having to keep thinking Manika, Manika, Manika,
which at that time two years ago when I was writing was just such a difficult word even to say.
And that's how it came. So she became Stargirl. We've got a middle sister,
Soraya, who became Dreamcatcher because she's just the most beautiful soul you've ever met.
And then I share the stories of our childhood interspersed with, you know, the grief I'm going
through in current days and all our adventures, Stargirl, me and Dreamcatcher.
And because there were three of you and you talk about the magic of three and how so many things
come in three. So I'm the eldest of two. I've got two younger sisters. So I understand that
idea of three, three girls. It's powerful, isn't it, Jess? So I didn't really understand that,
too, until I heard lots of stories from other people who don't have sisters or even don't have
siblings. And I just go, yes, I've gone through this terrible loss, but I had so much. I know
what it's like to have this tight pack. And you don't really need to even have any other friends
because there's always the sisters, you know, to go on the bikes, on your dragsters, down to the
creek, play tennis with, you know, do all the crazy things at school and sport and tennis.
And you just become so tight and so close. There's only a year between us as well. So
we were almost always together in primary school, together in high school.
And we moved a lot as a family, you know, five different countries before we were about 14,
15. And so there was a lot of upheaval, a lot of change, but we were always constant.
And it didn't matter if we were in a new school because we always knew there was always going to
be someone to talk to. We had a sister, right? So I now appreciate just what a blessing that is to
have beautiful siblings and of course, some sisters as well, because there is a special
connection that only sisters really understand. And that's what I think is so beautiful about
the way you've written this story is that you weave that sense of connection, those stories
that you shared when you were younger, but then coming to terms with Stargirl not being in the
real world, but you find her in other ways, don't you? A lot of people say this, that this isn't the
first big loss I've ever been through in my life. So I haven't gone through this before, but other
people have said to me that it's only in the loss that the memories come back, rushing back things
that you've never thought about in decades and decades. And suddenly you remember something that
happened. And that started to happen to me as I was writing. And I thought, gee, they were funny
stories. Gee, she was a little rotten little kid. How naughty, how naughty was I sometimes.
And I realised that sharing those stories would be a nice balance to the darker parts of the book,
you know, that I was struggling with the grief and the loss. And so I don't know if other kids
were naughty like us. I mean, we were just naughty. We didn't do anything too terrible.
But pretty funny. I mean, the toupee. I love the story of your dad's toupee.
I think it's brilliant. So we migrated from England to Australia. And my father,
we didn't realise as kids, you know, because you're just little toddlers, whatever,
he had started losing his hair and he, which was the thing to do in the 70s, men wore toupees,
right? And they must have been a terrible, uncomfortable thing. So when we moved to a
new country and had a new group of friends, he probably thought this is a good time, get rid
of the toupee and just be comfortable, you know, with not having much hair. So the day after we
landed, we all woke up in this new country and ran into the, you know, the hotel room to greet dad.
And there he was without any hair. What happened? And he just sort of told a little white lie and
said, oh, you know, I decided to change. I've decided just to shave my hair off. Right. So we
just accepted it as little kids. And then years and years later, it was a rainy Saturday afternoon
and our parents are entertaining some very important friends of theirs upstairs. And we
were just, you know, stayed downstairs. Don't make a noise, sort of, you know, warning from our
parents. And we found a dress up box that everyone has in their garage. And it was just filled with
all these clothes. We remembered seeing our parents wear through the seventies, you know,
really, you know, amazing, like long, weird furs and big, big hats and wedge heels. And so we started
dressing up with all these clothes. So the three of us were all clunking around, really having a
ball and Monica started ferreting in one box and came out with this sort of triangular, sort of
woolen, hard sort of plastic thing. And we were throwing it around going, what is this? It looked
like a bicycle seat. And then we realised, oh my God, that looks like the photos that we have when
Dad had hair. Oh my God. He didn't shave off his hair. He had a toupee. And then Stargirl,
being so naughty, puts it on her head and starts parading around the garage. Oh, look at me.
And then she had this naughty idea. We couldn't stop her. She races out of the garage up the
stairs into the lounge where our parents were with their friends and starts parading in front of
them. And now obviously Mum and Dad knew immediately what it was and the guests knew that it was a
toupee. And of course it was very embarrassing for my father to be outed in that sort of way.
But that was the sort of thing that she would do. And she was only about eight or seven at the time.
Oh, it is such a beautiful story. And I think that point you make too about that counterpoint
to having these moments of joy as you try and grapple with this indescribable grief.
Yeah. It was such an important way to deal with my grief too, to constantly remind myself of the
joy of when she was with us, all the things that we did together. And I mean, I just love life.
And this connection with nature, which got stronger and stronger during my grieving process,
just kept informing me more deeply about how much I love life and how much nature is so much a part
of my life. And so every time I would see a beautiful sunset or watch the moonshine on the
harbour or look at the stars, pick up a bird feather, I'd just go, why wasn't that enough for
you? Why wasn't that enough for you in your life? Because it's so amazing. And so it was really
important for me to cope with because it's not so much, it's just a sense of disbelief and why that
you keep asking yourself, which when you lose someone isn't helpful because there is no answer
to the why. You can go through it over and over and over. Why did this happen? Why didn't you get
the mental health support you needed to get at the time? Why wasn't it enough to live for your
husband and your daughter? I mean, come on, it was an amazing life you had. But if you stay in the why,
it just drives you crazy. So you've got to at some stage, well, I did, accept this thing had happened
and then try to find meaning in it. And the meaning for me was I had that time with her
and we had amazing adventures together. So yeah, that was how I found the meaning.
And the way that you've been able, I think, to share that meaning in such a beautiful way
that it helps so many of us make sense of terrible things that we're not very good at talking about
that we can't find the words for. And you found those words.
Exactly. I mean, there's so much losses you would know, Jess, going on at the moment.
We've been through a very difficult time with the pandemic. So I know that this experience can really
help a lot of people with their loss, you know, that they're going through with their anxiety.
And it doesn't have to be extreme things you have to change in your life. People think,
oh, I have to leave my job or my home or my partner or, you know, go for a retreat on a
mountain or something like that. The joy and the connection that you can find from nature
just in your backyard, just down your street as I did is easy. You just have to slow yourself down,
be still, put down your device and just be present in the bits of nature that are around you.
That was the extraordinary revelation that the help, the healing is right around us all
the time, but we just don't notice it. And you did notice it. You mentioned
before that extraordinary fig tree and I feel goosebumps just thinking about that fig tree.
I love sometimes to wrap my arms around a tree. There's some sense of calmness. And I've only
started to do it, I reckon in the past couple of years and I encourage my youngest daughter
to do it with me. And it is phenomenal what it does to you, isn't it?
Yeah, it's extraordinary. Because especially that fig tree, I discovered, I did some research with
the horticulturist at the gardens, 150 years old. Wow. And the stuff that it would have seen in
that time. So here we are going through the current pandemic. It was around for the first
pandemic in 1918. It was sitting in that same spot on the hillside in Woolloomaloo.
It probably nurtured other people who had gone through losses and griefs like mine.
It had also where it was over the Woolloomaloo Harbour, which was the main harbour in Australia
for the gold rush ships to arrive, bringing people who wanted to make their fortune.
It was also the main place for the troops to leave for the First World War. And then the soldiers who
returned after the terrible things they'd seen, the soldiers who didn't come back as well.
This tree sat on this hillside, saw it all. It had seen obviously so much loss, so much grief,
but it also seen lots of joy as well. And that to me was such a comfort. It had got through all of
that. It was still there. It was still standing, you know, and it had given cover to so many people.
So that in itself gave me a lot of solace that things survive. The cycle of nature carries on.
There is loss. There is death. There is life. There is joy. That is just the nature of things.
And when you sit with nature and you see that cycle around you, you understand that.
And that I will be gone one day too. And there'll be other people here being cared for by the tree.
And that is just the way of things. And it's how it's meant to be as well. And it may be
difficult at the time, but the sooner you accept that, you know, you can't have life without death
and that every day we have is so precious because we don't know when death is coming.
We don't know when it's coming for us. We don't know when it's coming for our loved ones.
But if we can live in the moment, in the now, as intensely and surrender to it,
and surrender to the joy of the nature around us, because it is there to support and help us
and lead us onto a joyful path. So yeah, that tree was just an amazing teacher for me
over the last few years. And the night sky.
Yeah. Looking up into that big wide sky is quite something too.
It is. And I was doing a lot of reading during this time. And we hear a lot about, you know,
country. So our Indigenous and First Nations people, they have this extraordinary connection
to the land and the sea. But what we don't often understand is they have a big connection
to the sky as well. They call it sky country. And of course, it's huge. You know, it's massive.
It is as big or bigger than the actual earth in a lot of ways. And so being trapped in lockdowns
as we were while we were going through our loss and our grieving, you had only that five kilometers
around you. So you had to explore every part of it. So I explored the land. I explored the
bits of harbor I could see. And then, of course, there was the sky. And the night sky is just so
wondrous. Even in the city right next to the CBD, you think you can't really see many stars in the
sky. But I could see a lot. And then I found an astronomer who was so generous and came and
set up his high-end telescope on the balcony. And we found over 13 planets and nebula.
And they were, wow, I had no idea. Like the colors and the greens and the dancing tendrils
and the sparkles. And it just gave me a bigger perspective over what small part I was of this
very big cosmos. And the title, The Space Between the Stars, really comes from that sense of,
well, we can see those stars. But in that black that we think there's nothing there,
there is still some stars. But they're just so far away. We can't actually make them out
from where we are. And also the sense that we think of it as dark. But where there's dark,
there is also light. And they sort of coexist together, I think. And so when you are going
through a loss and a grief, and it can be any sort of thing. It doesn't have to be what I've
gone through. It can be, I've heard stories from my radio show of grandparents not being able to see
their first grandchild being born or watch their first step or hug them. Or someone not being able
to visit a mother who's dying from cancer and not being able to say goodbye to them in the hospital
because of lockdowns. And people went through such losses and such griefs. And so it doesn't matter
what your particular loss or grief, there is healing to be had. And I think that when you
put it in perspective of all that is going on in the world, in the cosmos, it starts to make more
of sense. It's not just you. You're not just alone. This is happening a lot to a lot of people.
And people get through it, you know. And loss can actually be a learning experience
that I found. You can actually find more joy. I feel closer to my sister than I ever have before,
which I never would have believed before this happened. And in what way?
You know what we can do with the people in our life? We can think about them and maybe spend
too much time thinking about the things that we don't like or the things that annoy us, right?
And then when they're gone, you tend to mainly think, oh, I love that about them,
oh, I miss that about them. I wish I could see their smile again. Wouldn't it be great if we
only thought about those things while they were alive? And I think that that's what you're
reminded of, to focus on the things you love about the people you love. You know, why sort of
niggle about those other things that can be annoying or frustrating? It's sort of, you know,
pointless. And, you know, many family members, including me, for a couple of years leading up
to my sister's death, were frustrated that she didn't get the mental health support that she
needed. But what's the point of thinking about that now? This has happened. We've got to move on,
support her family, support her daughter. And, you know, there's a lot of joy and future and
living that's ahead for everyone, you know, despite what's happened. So, yeah, there can be
a closeness that you can feel for someone in their death. And a way, too, of perhaps, as you say,
trying to make sense of it or keeping going. And there's a beautiful moment in the book that made
me weep as well when you talk about making a birthday cake for your niece. I don't know if
I'm going to tell that story. Yeah, it was a day after her mum's funeral, and it was her 12th
birthday. And so her mum always made her a birthday cake. And so it fell on me to make that birthday
cake. Gosh, that was a hard birthday cake to make. And we were staying in an Airbnb because we had
to go to Melbourne for the funeral. And as you know, when you're in a foreign kitchen, you don't
know the stove or the oven. They don't have the right trays and cake tins. So I just had to sort
of fashion whatever and, you know, gosh, and I thought everything's going to stick. This is
going to be the worst cake I've ever made. And look, and it wasn't a good cake, I have to admit.
And I remember, I think I wrote in the book, I'm going to make you cake because you want a semblance
of normality to continue for this, you know, my niece's life. And a birthday cake is that it's
there's nothing more normal than celebrating a birthday and having a birthday cake. And I thought,
wow, this is a lot of responsibility for the cake. This cake has to represent normality.
It's a lot riding on the cake shoulders. And sadly, as the cake came out of the oven,
it sunk in the middle. And so when I was icing it, I just had to sort of pack more icing, you know,
which we all had to do with sunken cakes. And it tasted fine. It was it was all fine. And it was
a woman's weekly cookbook cake that I remember loving when I was a kid, which was covered in
Smarties and had the little chocolate finger biscuits, you know, the Fort cake around the
outside of it. And yeah, that cake had to carry a lot of stuff that day, you know, because we were
all lost for words. I mean, just the tragedy and then having this right the day after. And, you know,
there was nothing really normal about that day, but we had to carry on, you know, life carries on.
So in a lot of ways, it was a very special cake. And the story that you share, I think is so special
because we don't talk about grief. No. At all. Do we? No. And we need to though, we need to have
these hard conversations. We do because grief is going to come for all of us. You know, if you
haven't experienced any big grief yet, you may think you're lucky. I certainly did. This was the
big grief I felt in my 50s, which is very late in your life. But I wasn't really lucky because I was
so ill prepared for it. And the thing about grief is that little bits of grief, every grief is
different. You know, I can go through this grief and think, great, I've done grief. Yeah, I'm going
to be fine. But I'm sure when my husband dies, it's going to be a completely different grief,
you know. So when my parents die as well. So you realise that it's so important to
be aware of how you're feeling about that loss and do the work, you know, sit with it, feel it,
understand it, share. I spent a lot of time with a grief counsellor. I still see her as well. And
we tend to put our grief into this little bag of shadows. You know, anything that goes wrong
into the bag. I'll do all that later. And the bag fills up, fills up. And then when you have a big
grief like this, there's no room in the bag. So as well as dealing with this big grief,
you have to go back to all those little griefs that have happened to you in your life. And that
is too much grief to deal with all at once. And a lot of people can be really overwhelmed.
So absolutely, we need to talk about it. We need to share. And people need to feel that they're not
alone, you know, especially when it comes to suicide, because there can be a lot of shame
that sits around suicide. People don't want to talk about it. They think people will judge them
and think they must be bad people. But it's not like that. I mean, not that I can completely
understand why someone would take their life. But, you know, it happens. And it happens to
more people, sadly, than we realise. And there are lots of problems with mental health generally in
our society. So the more we can talk about it, and we're getting better at doing this, Jess,
you know, we're talking about domestic violence, we're talking about child abuse, a lot of these
issues that everyone struggles with, even, you know, how can this even exist in our society?
Well, these things do. And the more we talk about it, and the better conversations we have around it,
you know, we might actually tackle it and make it less of a problem than it actually is. But
it is important for people to know, whether you're with a loved one who's struggling with
these issues, or you are someone who's struggling, you're not alone. There is help.
And, you know, most of these struggles can be rectified, you know, you don't have to struggle
alone with it. So it is important, you know, to share these stories and talk about it, but also
to remind people the hope and the joy, you know, that when you come out through the other side
of the grieving process, which, you know, for a lot of people will be a long process, you never
quite totally get over it. But the sorrow diminishes and you still, you know, can live a
full happy life. But I just didn't want to be someone that carried this sorrow, so everything
had this grayness about it. I've seen, you know, for instance, my mother-in-law, she lost her husband,
you know, 30 years before she died, she died a couple of years ago. And for those 30 years,
there was a little bit of grayness in every day for her. And I thought, gee, that's carrying a
lot of grief for a very long time. Could we have done something? Could we have helped her to somehow
see that, you know, it's a sad loss, but it happens. And there are still all these beautiful
people in your life, grandchildren and great grandchildren and a lot of joy that can come.
And it's important to remind ourselves about that. Yes, loss is difficult, but it is part of life.
And there's still a lot of joy and a lot of amazing memories to be made.
And that we talk about it, as you say, that we share our experiences and stories,
which you are doing so beautifully and bravely. And what sort of lessons would you like to share
with people who are listening, who are perhaps going through something really hard themselves,
missing someone who they love enormously? What could you tell them?
I understand a bit of your pain, a bit of your loss. It's a terrible thing and it's a very sad
thing. And sit with it and feel it. You know, don't deny it. Don't pretend. Don't push it away.
It's very hard to actually accept the darkness you're feeling. It's work. That's the thing.
It's hard work, you know, but as you do the work, you make the breakthroughs and the joy that you
open your heart into is extraordinary. It's almost like no joy I felt before. And what it is,
is that your heart has to keep on breaking until it opens and it will.
Would you say your heart is open now?
I hope so. I don't want it to be open much more than this. It's definitely more open than it was
before. I always loved nature before this happened, but now I feel nature actually moving through me.
Like I feel the air and the breeze and the breath of nature and the sunlight in a way that
I didn't before. So yeah, I sort of feel a much more oneness with the bigger picture of things
rather than just being this individual grouping of cells, I guess. So it just makes you feel so
lighter and freer as well. So look, I wouldn't recommend, hey, this is a great way,
a great thing to go through to get to this place. But we don't have choices. We don't have choices
about where our lessons are going to come from. But we do have a choice about what we decide to
do with that lesson. We can make ourselves bitter or we can make ourselves better. It's our choice.
And you sound very much like someone who's made themselves better.
I hope so. Yeah, I feel it. Yeah.
Well, I can hear it, I think, and by reading what you've written, I get a sense of that.
Yeah, it's been, I mean, I know this word is very overused, but it's been quite a journey, Jess.
And yeah, I mean, look, I think we're here to learn. And some of those lessons are difficult
lessons, but they're all part of that bigger picture. And ultimately, we want to find what
our purpose is. You know, why are we here? And in loss, it's not just acceptance. For me,
it was really important to find meaning. And I think that part of what I've found in that meaning
is finding a greater sense of purpose and why I'm here.
It's so, I think, special to think in that way. And also that sense of, I think, death,
it's the end of a life, but it doesn't mean it's the end of a relationship with someone, is it?
Not at all. And that is another unusual thing that you go through through a loss, is that you
realise you keep having a relationship with that person, but it just changes.
But she's still part of my life and seeing what's happening and sharing all these experiences
and in a way as present in my life or even more so than she was before. So yeah, and because I've
got to share these stories, write them down, they'll be there for her daughter. So she'll
know these stories about when her mum was a naughty little kid. And I hope that's going to
be really good for her as well, to know what her mother was like. And I really wanted other
people to fall in love with Stargirl the way I was in love with her too, which I sense is also
happening. There are people who said, oh, I wish I knew Stargirl. She sounds incredible. How
intriguing. So that's lovely too. And I feel like I know her in the sense of her cheekiness,
her naughtiness, her kind of bravery and her sense of doing things her own way, regardless
of what anyone else would think. Yeah. She was always like that. Always like that.
And I think that was part of maybe why, what happened and how she decided to take a life
was also part of a bigger puzzle about her that, you know, I've only just starting to understand.
She really was someone who just said, I'm going to do it my way. Even if it wasn't maybe the best
way that I thought she should do things, she was always just on that track for herself. So
I think I understand that more than I did, you know, a couple of years ago from writing this book,
that no one was going to intervene and really in a lot of ways change a lot of the path that she
set for herself. So yeah, we don't have as much control over other people's lives as we'd like to
think we do. In the end, it's really up to them how they choose to live their life.
And I think that is such an important point to make that we can only do so much. We can love
someone, we can listen, we can be there, but they are living their life and we cannot stop
whatever that might be. Exactly. I know. And that's a very difficult thing to accept, isn't it, Jess?
Because especially when you're a parent, you know, it's a really big loss for a parent.
But at some stage you have to say, yes, I brought this child into the world and I've given them as
much as I can and given them as much guidance. But now they need to largely walk that path by
themselves. It doesn't matter if they have partners and family and loved ones, but it's you,
it's your life, it's your body, it's your health. Yeah. So there's a lot of lessons to learn,
you know, that lots of ways you've been thinking and leading your life and interacting with all
the people, the loved ones in your life. When you go through this sort of loss, everything
you start thinking about and questioning and wondering what can change, what can improve,
what can you do differently? What is good that you want to hold onto and keep? You know, so
it's a lot of soul searching that you go through, which is why I was so
lucky to have had the time I had and do the writing, do the research, spend time with such
interesting thinkers and nature guides, you know, that guided me on this trip. And for various
reasons, I'd been given the skills to write this story. And the responsibility to that is pretty
amazing because I think the role of writers is to tell the stories we don't want to
hear. We don't want to read. And I certainly didn't want to write this story. I didn't really want to,
but I would have been so glad to have read this story before this happened to me.
If there was this story, it would have helped me immensely. And when I was going through
the worst bits of my grief, I didn't find a lot of good grief writing. They were either too
clinical, written by people who were removed, who were excellent and specialist in their field,
but they'd heard the story via a patient or a client. And so that in itself makes it a little
bit removed and distant. And then the other grief stories I'd heard were people who were going
through their grief, but they were still in their grief. You know, they were still stuck in that
dark place, which is also really important. I wanted a sense of hope. I wanted a sense of,
okay, this is the grief. This is what you're going to feel. This is the loss,
but the joyous path that you can lead yourself out of, you know, when you walk hand in hand
with nature. I wanted to hear that story. You know, I wanted to experience that story.
So that was a story that really did happen to me. So that was a story that I wrote. And
I was just lucky, which is a weird thing to say when you go through such a horrific loss like this.
I was lucky to be in the time and space and place when someone needed to tell this story.
Thank you for telling the story in the way that you have. It's so beautiful,
and I'll never walk past a fig tree the same way again. So thank you so much.
My pleasure. I hope you visit the fig tree as well. Go and find it in the Botanic Gardens.
It's got a wooden walkway around it and say hi to it, because I have warned it that it's got a
lot of fans now that are going to come and hassle it. I'm going there. I'm going to bring
my daughters and just give it a big hug and nestle amongst those wonderful roots.
Yeah, you do that. You'll feel great. Thank you, beautiful. Thank you.
What a story Indira has shared with us. Wherever you might be in your life at the moment,
please remember you're not alone. If you need to hug a tree, hug a tree. I know I love doing that.
Or gaze up into the beautiful night sky. I know by looking at those twinkling stars,
it helps make me feel a little bit brighter. But please as well, if Indira's story brought
up some issues for you, do remember that help is available by calling Lifeline on 13 11 14
for a safe place to talk day and night. The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe,
executive producer Nick McClure, audio producer Nicky Sitch, supervising producer Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big. Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the
stuff that doesn't matter. Listener.