I don't label myself anything but human because I can change my mind at any point.
And that's what makes humans special.
That's what makes us individuals.
And I think so many of my friends have been straight and then they've been gay and then
But I just sort of go, well, you're just human, you can change your mind at any point.
And I lean into that.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show.
A podcast that skips the small talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
I don't know about you, but I really crave connected conversations, so I'm going to dig
deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we're curious to get to know
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real-life flaws and vulnerabilities
that make us human.
Four-time Logie winner Hugh Sheridan is a triple threat.
He can sing, dance and act.
And he's a special human being, and I was lucky enough to get to know him when we worked
on a reality TV show together.
But a lot has happened to Hugh since we first met.
In the space of a year, he first came out as loving both men and women in an essay that
he wrote for Stella magazine.
Soon after that, he lost the role of a lifetime when his show, Hedwig and the Angry Inch,
Hugh then got engaged, then his father died, and then his engagement ended.
And I wanted to talk with you about how do you survive and come through such tumultuous
It was a joy to talk with him in the studio before he gets busy with his show, Solitary
Man, Hugh Sheridan sings Neil Diamond.
Hugh, God, it's a joy to see you.
It's such a joy to see you.
And you look so beautiful wearing that dress.
You look absolutely stunning.
But you have been through so much.
And for me to actually see you face to face is so special because there's been so many
times over these past few years where I've just wanted to give you the biggest hug and
say, it's going to be OK because you've opened your heart up in a way to people.
And I think you've been treated very unfairly in different ways.
And I've just wanted to scoop you up and say, it's OK.
You're going to be OK.
Oh, you're beautiful for saying that.
Yeah, it's funny that it feels like over years, but actually it was sort of all condensed
into one year, really, was just the year.
It was what the Queen would call, God rest her soul, her, what did she call it?
The Anus Horribilis.
Anus, it was my anus horrificus that year.
It was just the absolute worst.
Dad died. All my friends died.
I was trying to help people.
But the main thing is, I think, going through your Anus Horrificus, Horribilis,
or whatever it's called, is you just get through it.
And I think that that's sort of nice.
And a lot of people have said similar things to you, especially friends that work in
entertainment, because we know how horrificus it can be when it's all public knowledge as
well. It sort of amplifies everything.
But when you get through it and then you just soldier on, and I think people feel awful
when you're going through it.
But then when you come through it and you say, come and see my show, Solitary Man at
the Opera House and I'm doing this play and films or whatever, they just go good on you
for getting through it because it is tough.
And there's so many times and you would know where you just go, I think I just want to
open an ice cream shop and live in the bottom of Brazil somewhere where no one knows me
and no one will ever find me.
Because I remember hearing something, you actually wrote it, I think, on one of your
Instagram posts about people didn't realise how low you were, how low it went for you.
Yeah. Like, again, it's one of those things where you're not allowed to talk about it
at the time. And I really wasn't allowed to talk about it.
I was under strict instructions from the producers of the show that I'd been cancelled for not
to make any public statements.
And that was really difficult because I was being called a lot of different things that
were completely untrue.
And this was also, for anyone that doesn't know the context, about a week after I sort
of wrote an essay for Stella.
So it was about a week later and my essay was all about, my essay was all about basically
opening up about my private life, which I'd always enjoyed my privacy, but I thought about
it and I felt during Covid, I thought a lot about how much I would appreciate that if
someone in my position was more open as a younger person.
And the irony was actually it affected a lot of people older than me as well that had gone
through similar things where they'd been with guys and girls or whatever and they didn't
really know where to place themselves.
And so I basically become open about that as not for myself, but to try and do it to
just inspire other people.
I think also becoming famous for playing a role like Ben Rafter, for instance, who's
like the quintessential guy next door and just to say, well, if people relate to me
as him, and a lot of people did, to say that it's okay to be whoever you are, no matter
who you are, I thought that that would have a really good impact.
And I think it did.
And I really hope you know that nothing that then happened subsequently should take away
from the power of your message.
And I'm a huge believer in courage is contagious.
And you being so courageous in that way then inspires other people to also be courageous.
And so I hope you know that.
Well, a lot of people actually used the essay to become more open with their families and
things like that.
I actually had people that directly just said, can you read this?
And then, you know, their parents read it and stuff.
And then they say, this is who I am.
Instead of just them being able to say it, they just thought that the wording,
because I put a lot of detail into it, and I'd never really done that before.
So I was feeling very vulnerable anyway.
And then a week later, sort of lost my job where I was playing five different characters.
And one of them obviously was pre and post-op and became trans.
So that was just one of the sort of eight characters that I was playing.
But it was very public and I was being called words like transphobic and stuff like that,
which is completely, if you know me, absolutely not the case.
And I thought, how did they not know that?
But obviously some people didn't read the essay.
And yeah, I mean, it was only a handful of people, but it's amazing.
And I think we were sort of at the start of cancer culture at the time.
But a year later, I got to sort of reflect on that with a different article.
And that helped immensely, I think, for cancer culture,
because I got to actually say that was really, really, really bad and a very dark time.
And I think sometimes it's that don't cry out loud sort of thing.
But also I think it is important for people to realize that
it can be incredibly difficult to come forward and say who you are.
But when you're in the public eye, it's sort of amplified,
because then ever since then, everyone's known everything about me.
And then there's more of a curiosity about who are you dating and who are you seeing,
what's going on and all that sort of thing.
So before that, I didn't really have to deal with that much.
It was always just hearsay or them telling me that I'd gotten
Delta up the duff or something like that.
You're on the cover exactly of various magazines.
So how would you then say, who are you?
Well, I always just define myself as human, which is ironic because my name is Hugh.
And that sort of came to me at this point where I said, I'm human.
I don't think I can actually label myself, but I don't think we should label anyone.
I don't think even labelling people as being divorced or widowed or unemployed
or looking at people and saying they're Muslim, they're Catholic, they're black,
they're white, they're gay, they're non-binary.
Someone actually came out and said that I was non-binary.
And I read it again actually in the article on the weekend after I'd sung the anthem.
And they said, oh, you came out as non-binary.
And I thought, why would I come out as being a human and then come out as non-binary?
But I was too scared to say anything at the time because I thought in the non-binaries,
they then will come after me.
But isn't that absurd though?
I just don't label myself anything but human because I can change my mind at any point.
And that's what makes humans special.
That's what makes us individuals.
And I think so many of my friends have been straight and then they've been gay
and then bi or whatever.
But I just sort of go, well, you're just human.
You can change your mind at any point.
And I lean into that.
I also think it's a good way to start to move forward as well.
In that we need to find commonalities and look for similarities rather than separation.
I think that labels do cut us off from each other.
And I think that's a beautiful way of putting it.
In a world that becomes increasingly divided and divisive, what is it that we share?
Or what is it that we have in common?
What are the things that matter the most to us?
And for me, I think about it's love.
That's what matters the most to me.
I care more about if you're a good person, not about who you are or whatever like that.
If you can tell a good joke, if you enjoy a good joke, if you enjoy a laugh,
those are the qualities that I like to think that people will look at me and say,
well, he's funny.
He's funny, he's odd, he's strange, he's eccentric.
He's call me anything but not late for dinner.
I heard an interview with you, Hugh.
And you said in this interview that you had been married.
What? When? Like, how did you manage to sort of keep that from everyone?
And when was that?
I just lived my life privately.
When? Please tell me a little more.
I could give you dates.
I can't say the name because they were in the same industry.
So I couldn't really be specific about that.
But I was married.
I probably got married in, oh gosh, I can't remember the date.
But I remember it was the 11th of July, but I can't remember.
Gosh, I mean, look, it was over 10 years ago.
Are we talking five years ago?
Or, oh no, because you've been married for 10 years.
Of course, sorry.
Yeah, I got divorced a few years ago.
So I've just got to try and work that all out.
But 20 years ago?
No, no, no, no, no, I only, no, gosh.
Would have been, I'm just trying to think what year we're in now.
So it was probably, I guess it would have been just after 2011 or 2012 or something
like that, I guess.
Would have been around then.
Or 11, must have been.
Like this is, that's a long marriage.
It was about nine years.
It was about nine years.
Yeah, but we were solidly together for about seven.
And then the last couple, we were travelling a lot and it got too hard.
But we're still very good friends.
I'm friends with virtually all of my exes.
Just not, just not one.
Because you've been engaged three times as well.
Yep, that's right.
Now I've got to get married a few more times.
There's plenty more engagements to come.
And I am definitely single.
I can confirm that right now.
But I think for people listening to you say that, that-
Is there a hotline they can call up if they want to take me on a date?
Hey, it will be running off the hook.
But to be married for 10 years and to have kept that under your hat, so to speak.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And why though did you want to keep that secret?
Well, it wasn't just me.
It was sort of a, it was a joint decision.
But also, like I said, I mean, what wasn't a secret to my family or my friends,
it was just a secret to the public.
Because I think privacy is personal and I think most people should be entitled to it.
But I was finding increasingly, if you don't speak out about your private life,
people can assume that you're ashamed or that you've got some sort of hidden agenda
or that you're denying other people their self-expression by not talking about it.
That's why I wrote the essay to say I've never been ashamed and I've never been,
I've just been private.
And that was my choice.
You shouldn't have to go to work and say, this is my life.
And in fact, I think it's actually illegal now to ask people about their private life at work,
which I think is wonderful.
But maybe it should be illegal for people to ask about their private life
just because they're famous.
You know what I mean?
Yes, no, you make such a good point.
And also it should be something that you reveal because you want to,
not because there's a pressure or an expectation.
Yeah, and that's literally what I was trying to say in the essay.
What I actually I did, I definitely said that I said,
I hope that people reading this might give other people a break
because I didn't really want to say any of it.
I just wanted to say it on behalf of other people that might be private.
And also just to say, you shouldn't have to tell people or justify who you are
because it's your business, it's your life.
And also, I think you realise as well,
it's the people that matter is who you reveal things to.
You don't owe anyone else anything.
And I think, yeah, exactly.
And I have enjoyed the fact that so many people have come to me
since then for advice and things like that.
And people sometimes see me on the street and they come and approach me
and they'll just pour out so much stuff.
But I actually don't mind because I love that.
And that's kind of that's just who I am by nature.
I enjoy giving advice and saying, look, you don't have to do that.
You shouldn't feel like this.
You're perfect exactly the way you are.
And when you're ready, say it if you want to or don't.
It's an interesting contrast because I think about you
and you're very you are very open and warm and engaging
and you sort of take people in.
But then, as you say, there's been that big private side to you as well.
But I mean, now everything's out on the table sort of.
It's a bit of a relief, really.
But is that how you feel?
You feel relieved?
No, only because I think everyone, well, I mean, no, it's not a relief
to know that everyone knows everything about me,
but it's only a relief in that regard.
You know what newspapers can be like when you sort of go,
well, there's nothing really else they can say
because there's just nothing exciting to say
that I haven't already said or I'll just say it myself.
You can then own that because the point is it is your story.
It is no one else's.
I mean, it is quite a story.
There's a lot of other stories.
I should start writing a memoir, really.
And putting it together.
To be a cracker of a story.
Oh, to be a cracker.
We've got a few crackers just ourselves.
I mean, that's not even a full chapter, really.
Let's talk, too, about mental health because I know you're a passionate advocate.
And, as am I, and also, too, you've spoken about times when you have been really low.
And I understand that in the sense of I know there have been times
when I've been at my rock bottom and you almost need to get there before you can ask for help.
Well, I think definitely, I mean, I'm just still talking about that wonderful year
Mind you, I feel great now.
And I do feel so good about getting through it.
And I felt great for a long time.
But it's still, like you said, I think one of the things that I learnt about going through
that sort of getting cancelled.
I think if you haven't been cancelled by the trans community, were you really alive?
Have you really lived?
But when that sort of thing happens and you feel like it's people that you actually
love and adore turning on you and sort of feeling that conflict, it's very easy to
And that's definitely what happened to me.
But you also getting through it, you learn so much.
And that's why I wanted to share it and why I do talk about mental health.
Not because I'm saying people need to be famous or experience that.
It's about learning how to cope with those moments when you feel really dark.
And also just to really know it's OK.
And it's going to pass and you will get through it.
And I think that that's the main thing is that it's like I'm sure you love the movie
Annie, but the song tomorrow, the sun will come out tomorrow.
Bet you bottom dollar.
And it's you've really just got to look for the silver lining.
My grandfather, one of his great sayings was this day shall pass.
And I sort of lean into that a lot.
But I love that too, because you can use it on many different levels.
Not only the bad times will pass, but also the good times.
So you need to cling on to when things are good.
You've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmative
and don't mess with Mr. Inbetween.
Oh, yes, because it is a hard knock life, isn't it?
It is a hard knock life.
Tell me, though, how you got through it, because you're saying to people
there is a way through.
For me, I mean, gosh, it was for me, it was sort of it was I think I would have gotten
through it much easier had it not sort of been such a surprising year.
Because it was sort of like just after that happened, a best friend of mine died.
And then then I found out that my dad was dying.
Another friend died.
And I did get engaged and then not engaged.
And that was a very difficult time as well.
And then another best friend died.
So it was sort of like hit after hit.
And it was really sort of relentless.
But like I guess it's true what I was saying, like latching on to the affirmative,
counting your blessings.
Every time that something really hard would happen, I got in the habit of writing a list
of things that I was happy about or just things to be grateful for.
And if you're really struggling, you can just start with the fact that you have running water.
You can just start with something so simple.
The fact that you had a bed to sleep in.
Like these are all things that other people not necessarily they don't have.
And they're things that we take for granted.
But they're very important.
Running water, air conditioning or a home that you are awake,
that you do have at least one loved person or a friend or someone.
And then you just start there and you just go.
And then before you know it, you have a list of and it changes your mindset.
It raises your vibration and it starts to you start to see everything as a glass half full.
You know what I mean?
Because you're very spiritual.
I mean, I've loved all sorts of spirituality and I love studying different kinds of spirituality
and learning more because I mean, the more you learn, it's exactly what we were saying before.
Like the more you realize that all religions are very, very similar.
And you know, how can we say my God's better than your God and all this sort of thing?
But when you are studying just spirituality from a more spiritual perspective rather than
sort of reading the Bible and this is what you can and can't do and who you should be
and all that sort of thing, although I do believe in a lot of that.
But if you look at someone like Jesus, for instance,
or you compare it with say Hinduism, so much of it is about gratitude.
And you look at what, you know, what we learned, say, because I was raised Catholic.
When you look at the base of it, and I think Pope Francis is a wonderful example of this,
it's about generosity and about acceptance.
And I think those sorts of things do teach us if we read it or learn, if we really listen to it,
how to get through the hard times because it is all about knowing what you have to be grateful for
and also how can you help someone else.
Often that's a really good way to get your mindset different as well
is through helping someone else.
I mean, it's sort of like a distraction, but it will make you feel good as well.
So what are you grateful for?
Well, I'm grateful to be here with you.
And I'm definitely, I'm always grateful to have work.
And I've got lots of work coming up, which is good with Solitary Man.
I'm doing a movie and going back and doing Five Bedrooms again.
And I'm doing a play up in Brisbane called A Normal Heart.
And in the smallest theatre in the world, Solitary Man's in the biggest theatres
in Australia, and I'm doing a little one up there for World AIDS Day.
But I'm just grateful to have so many options.
And the more that you can count your blessings, and there are so many blessings,
then I think the more you become present.
And being present is a really good way to get rid of anxiety as well because
most anxiety and mental health is because you're living too much either in the past
or in the future.
And when you can just stop and take stock right at this moment.
Look at everything, look at this window there, there's a camera there.
Microphone here, you know, you become present and looking at your beautiful glittery eyes.
I put the sparkle on for you too.
And listening to you talk about being present, I agree.
I think it's that sense of earthing and grounding yourself.
When you perform, would you say you are present?
You're in that very moment?
It's important to try and be, you know.
And also it was like, so I was singing at the football
and I was sort of getting very stressed about it because it's, you know,
it's a lot of people to sing in front of.
And it's the anthem.
And it was the anthem.
And then I did at quarter time, I did Sweet Caroline as well.
But I was, and sometimes if I'm not really nervous, I get worried
that something's going to go wrong if I'm not nervous.
So it's finding that little balance.
And I felt very, very present and very happy to sing the anthem.
And I quite enjoyed that feeling because it's not always like that.
Because I think the anthem, it's a tricky song.
From a non-singer as well.
I don't sing, but it's not an easy song to sing.
Well, also it's very hard to please people with the anthem.
Well, certainly I think even for myself, you know,
you hear people sing it and you go, oh, you don't need to do all that.
The song speaks for itself.
And I love a good clean anthem.
And I'm not Whitney Houston, let's face it.
So I'm not going to play around with it too much.
But I just love it when you hear a nice bright version of it.
And that's what I wanted to do.
And everyone loved it.
So I'm really happy.
I've got good feedback.
I think for people listening though, some would be surprised to hear you say
that you get nervous before performances, given how experienced you are in it.
Well, I think most people do.
I think, you know, it's good to be nervous.
When I was younger and I was training at the Australian Ballet School,
they used to talk quite a lot about performance anxiety.
And we used to do those subjects with, say, like the young tennis players and swimmers.
They would come over and we would all do it together because
performance anxiety can affect sports people and performers.
Anyone that's doing anything sort of in that sort of large arena sort of thing.
And it's a skill that you're trained for, whether you're singing or you're acting
or you're playing football, whatever it is.
Performance anxiety is something that will come up and you have to learn to ride it.
You have to learn that actually the same endorphins that come out when you're feeling nervous
is exactly the same as excited.
It's the same endorphins.
It's how we mentally process them.
And that's because we're thinking in the future,
thinking this could go wrong, this could go wrong.
The same endorphins are coming out, but our mental state is different.
But if I'm like going, I'm going into the stage today and I'm excited,
it's exactly the same endorphins that are coming out.
But it's the way that our brains are working.
So I think most people, most big professionals, whether they're ballet dancers and stuff,
they still feel nervous going out.
But it's not necessarily a bad thing.
It's also excitement and the excitement of performing.
So yeah, I don't mind getting nervous.
I'll certainly be nervous before I go out doing my first solitary man shows.
I'm sure I will be because it's such a huge show.
In fact, I'll probably be nervous all the time
because there's a lot of pressure when you're singing someone like Neil Diamond anyway.
And they're big songs.
They're big songs.
And what's the connection with Neil Diamond?
When did you decide, oh, I want to sing these songs?
Well, I think everybody has a connection to Neil Diamond when you think about it.
In fact, I think there was some sort of statistic.
There was a statistic of, I want to say, one in three households had the Hot August Nights
record growing up.
So that's a huge amount of Australians playing Neil Diamond at the same time.
He's just a great singer-songwriter.
Just sort of, I was very sad to hear that he can't perform anymore because of his Parkinson's.
And I think that the music just needs to live on.
And hopefully I can bring it to a different generation as well.
And also I've learned so much more about him through getting ready for the show
because he wrote so many great songs that I didn't know because I'm of a different generation.
But he also wrote some classics that I love.
Now, I just want to finish talking with you a little bit more about love.
You are a matchmaker.
You put together one of your besties, Rebel Wilson, with another one of your besties.
And I had to leave the football when I was singing there the other day because
I had to go straight to a Hens, which I did not set her up.
But then I had to go from the Hens to a Bucks for my friend who is a dentist.
And I set him up with my cousin, Jessica, and now they've had baby.
And they were going to get married before COVID, but they couldn't.
And that was like 10 years ago.
I've done another matchmaker with a friend of mine from Melbourne,
with someone that lived in the States.
Yeah, I'm quite the matchmaker, actually.
I was thinking of turning into a TV show.
Yes, I think you should.
So what was it then with Rebel that you thought, yep,
she's going to go with my other bestie here?
Well, no, I'd set her up with a few other people that it didn't work out.
And I've got a list of people.
I'm sort of through them.
Try here, try there, try there.
And I had just been through a terrible breakup, as everyone knows.
And I was sort of suffering.
And I was in New York with her.
And she said, oh, you know, I can't really associate with how you feel.
I can't believe it because I've never really been in love.
And I just thought, that's so sad.
And then I thought, maybe I've been looking in the wrong place.
Maybe I should try setting her up with a girl.
And it worked out.
So, you know, and I had a few there.
I had a list of girls that needed to be set up with other girls.
So, you know, I got the list.
I got the black book.
I said, okay, go in there and have a look for myself.
You would have quite a black book because you're one of those people too.
I know a lot of people.
You know kind of everyone.
I know a lot of people.
And it's funny because I do love setting people up.
I've just got to find a person for me.
Oh, they are there.
Of course they are.
And also, sometimes there are people that come into your life
at different times for different reasons.
I mean, I have been married.
So take a bit of the pressure off.
That was a great first round.
That's an amazing innings.
Nearly 10 years, I know.
If we just hung around another year,
I think you get some sort of anniversary thing, don't you?
Would that be like your bronze?
No, but it's very boring.
It's like metal or tin or something.
Oh, I'll hang around for the next one.
Now with your black book though,
who would you say is the most famous person you know?
I mean, it's much of a muchness really.
I mean, who knows?
The most famous person is that I know.
But I've met a lot of people.
With the black book though,
I think it comes down to you're looking for quality
over things like fame.
I mean, there's definitely some people
that are out there looking for someone
that's rich or famous or this sort of thing.
But at the end of the day,
that's really not what's going to make you happy.
And matching people is really, really more about
who's going to like either make them laugh
or be respectful or, you know, great in bed.
You want all of those things.
That's really, that's all that's going to make it last
at the end of the day.
Well, it's I think all three can be hard.
But also you've got to work it out.
And also in life, things change.
There's the ebb and the flow
and you have to be prepared for there are some times
when, you know, things get in the way.
So, and lust can end.
So it's that it's very complicated.
We're all changing all the time.
Who knows what's around the corner
or who you're going to fall in love with next
or, you know, when things are going to end or change.
We're like the weather.
We're highly unpredictable creatures.
So don't box each other in.
Don't fence me in.
We would never fence you in.
Land, lots of land, lots of stars goes a boat.
Don't fence me in.
Normally I would sing, but you're so beautiful.
You're singing, I'm not going to trample on it.
You are such a beautiful human being.
And I have loved talking with you.
I love you so much.
And I cannot wait to see what you do next
because you deserve so much love and joy and happiness.
You open your heart.
You wear your heart on your sleeve.
And to me, that is a good thing and never forget that.
And if you're looking for what I'm doing next.
Oh, I'll be there.
Don't fence me in.
I had such an amazing time chatting with Hugh.
And if you want to catch Hugh in full flight,
check out Solitary Man.
Hugh Sheridan sings Neil Diamond.
Tickets are available for shows in Canberra, Sydney and Melbourne.
So visit solitaryman.com.au and we will put the link in our show notes as well.
And for more big conversations like this,
follow the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
It means you will never miss an episode.
And if you enjoyed this chat with Hugh,
I reckon you'd love my episode with Courtney Act.
When I was finally able to stand in the truth of who I was and say
that who I am is enough and who I am is correct and who I am is valid,
it was such a liberating feeling in that moment
and it's only continued to pay dividends.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe.
Executive producer, Nick McClure.
Audio producer, Nikki Sitch.
Supervising producer, Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.