There's always like naysayers who are like, oh, let's see how you go kind of thing.
When people kind of say, oh, I'm not sure if you can do it, it just actually makes me
And I do think that is slightly part of the Aussie spirit, maybe.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe, and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
Australian Frances O'Connor has been acting on screen, stage and television for over 30
I was first blown away by her cool performance in the movie Love and Other Catastrophes.
Since then, she's worked with Steven Spielberg, had Golden Globe nominations and made an
international name for herself.
Now she's come into her own, working on the other side of the camera, writing and directing
her first feature film, Emily, The Portrait of Emily Bronte.
Congratulations on the movie.
I really appreciate that.
It's a long kind of labor of love and so to kind of get this amazing response from people
and also like to bring the film home, there's something really lovely about that.
And for you though, is home Australia?
It's kind of where I feel like most myself, I think.
I mean, I do love the UK and I've lived in America as well, but like for me, I've spent
the majority of my life really in Australia, actually it's good, it's probably half and
half now actually.
Like when I come home, everything kind of aligns and I feel, I feel good.
And it's my culture, it's my identity, it's really my homeland.
So a lot of my really great friends are here.
You can sort of exhale in a way, do you think?
Yeah, you don't have to kind of like negotiate any other kind of cultural stuff.
You can just really be yourself and there's nothing lovely about that.
And people get you, I think humor as well.
I think laughter and joy is so essential to who we are as people.
And I think that is part of the Australian spirit.
I think we also have this rebellious kind of streak in us, but Aussies really take joy
in life, in like living life, I think.
And that's probably this beautiful environment that most of us live in.
And I think it's pretty unconscious actually.
I think a lot of people don't realise that there is that kind of baseline of like contentment
here, I think, that maybe in other countries, like I live in London and that can be a tough
city to live in for a lot of people.
So much of what you do that we hear about is around work.
As a performer, you're now directing, you've written this incredible film.
What is it that you could perhaps share with us about what your life is like outside of
Oh, God, it's hard to know, isn't it, after the pandemic?
Like, it was just like, well, I knew what my life was like before the pandemic.
And now we're all like, OK, let's get back to it and how are we going to function in
the world and all of that.
So but, you know, I've kind of done yoga my whole life, and that's been something that
I just love every different kind of yoga, every different kind of school of yoga I try
I come from a family of runners, so we all run.
I love dancing, dancing, something I just discovered in the last couple of years.
So I do modern dance.
So I love moving, basically, I love moving with its dance or running, yoga, that kind
It makes me feel good.
And my husband and I are massive movie buffs, so we spend a lot of time in cinemas, even
during the pandemic.
It was fantastic because no one went to the cinema, so we had the whole cinema to ourselves.
Yeah, my life's just kind of really the same as everybody else's, you know, I have my friends
and I have coffee with girlfriends and, you know, it's just life really, and I spend a
lot of time writing and reading and I learn French, I'm learning French, I'm learning
Oh my goodness, what can't you do, Frances?
I didn't say I was good at it, I'm just learning.
Yeah, but I think that to me is exciting.
I think for all of us, we want to keep learning and we're never there yet.
And the older I get, the more I realise, hey, I want to try this or give this a go.
And I think that's pretty special.
What are you doing that you love?
Well, do you know what, you know, talking with you, it makes me want to be braver.
And because I often think, no, I often think I am brave, but, you know, there's a part
of me that thinks, oh, I mean, I can't sing, I've done singing lessons, so maybe I'll try
singing lessons again.
But also there's a part of me that thinks I wouldn't mind not to be an actor, but to
do courses in acting, just to stretch that part of myself.
I do love storytelling, I love talking with people, I enjoy writing as well, and I love
escaping in my imagination.
And there's always been a part of me that's thought, oh, maybe could I do an acting course,
but I've always put it off.
And then I think, you know what, you're someone who, not putting things off, I want to lead
I suppose a braver and a bigger life.
And with what you were saying too about being a mum, and how, you know, there's a time when
you're focused on that, because I know with My Girls very much that's been my focus, but
you do get to a point where you think, hey, it's a bit more of my time now, or it could
be my turn again.
Yeah, and I think as women too, we do give up a lot of our time for our kids, because
I don't know, it's just a natural kind of thing to do to kind of nurture your kids.
And although guys are pretty amazing, I think at this point too, you know, I think my husband's
such a great dad.
But yeah, I know that that thing of like, you have to kind of stand still for a long
time so that your kids can kind of grow up in an environment that feels really stable.
And then but there is a certain point where like, yeah, suddenly, it's kind of shocking
though, when you do get that space back, I think, as a mum, because you like, you thought
you were kind of going to do this thing forever.
That's exciting too, I think, you know, to kind of think, okay, what do I really want
And I hear a lot of my friends say that too, you know, this moment, I have a lot of friends
who are saying, oh my god, my kids about to leave school and it's kind of shocking and
you know, but yeah, we're all talking about projects that we want to work on together
and yeah, it's kind of cool.
And there's time, there's time again for us.
I did read it in a British tabloid, so it mightn't be correct, but.
Where it was an interview with you where you were talking about, there was a time when
you're thinking, no, I don't want to act anymore when your when your son was little, that you
basically kept putting it off that you thought, no, I don't want to do this and your agent
signed you up for a play.
That is no, that is 100% true.
I was just so enjoying being a mum.
Also, I'd worked so hard.
You know, I was doing like two or three projects a year for a decade and then I got pregnant
and I've really enjoyed my pregnancy and then I really enjoyed that first year with my son
and then my agent said, I'm getting you a job, you're never going to go back to work.
But yeah, I really did enjoy those kind of first three years, especially with my son.
It was really cool.
Yeah, that bubble, that lovely bubble.
Yeah, so lovely and the routine of that and some just very essential about it and lovely.
I mean, it's hard, of course, yeah.
Now, tell me about Frances, the little girl.
You're an introvert and when you were little, there was a sense of not really feeling like
Well, I felt like I really did fit in for a long time.
It was more in my teen years, those kind of awkward years, you know, when you have to
start negotiating your femininity and that kind of thing.
I think that's when I kind of felt like, oh, this is, you feel yourself and I think a lot
of girls feel this way.
You move away from who your true self is, that little tough little adventurer who's
kind of out there having fun and I feel like you kind of move away from that because suddenly
your attractiveness comes into play.
I wonder what it is about that time when you do become, you're a teenager and you suddenly
are more conscious of how you move through the world.
I've got two daughters.
They're both teenagers and I can sort of see that shift in them that they're suddenly a
lot more aware of how people view them and how people react to them.
Yeah, and I still think we objectify young women in our culture and sexualise them more
It can make you feel unsafe, I think, as a young woman.
There's probably a lot of young women are like, oh, that's bullshit.
I don't really believe that.
And I'm my own empowered person, but that was kind of a little bit my experience.
But I do think things are shifting, you know, and I think there's a lot of amazing kind
of young women, you know, like your daughter's age and, you know, women in their 20s, you
know, like even like the young women I was working with in my film, they're just very
empowered, kind of beautiful people.
So I think we're progressing.
I think we are progressing and I see it in young women as well.
There's this almost sense of fierceness that they have and they're a lot more unapologetic,
whereas I know I felt I had to diminish myself for a time when I was younger.
Yeah, that feeling of like taking up too much space is kind of ugly.
There's an ugliness to that rather than like, I'm here, you know, I'm like, boom, I'm here.
And why shouldn't women occupy as much space as they want?
You know, I know guys do.
Of course they do.
It's like the man spreader in London on the tube where they start, you know,
and I'll be like, sometimes then I'll press back.
Oh, I adore men as well.
I do think, though, they get it easier, especially compared to young women.
And I want to talk about you, how you then were able to do your version, I suppose, of
man spreading or finding your voice, because first of all, you did that very much as an actor.
I kind of passed through this awkward stage as a teenager.
And then I think I kind of came into myself more like when I was 17, 18.
But it was always kind of a little bit rocky, to be honest.
But I think those moments of adversity, I think, helped you kind of work out who you are
and then kind of speak to that experience of, you know, everybody has stuff that they have
to work through and then that kind of helps form who you want to be.
So those moments kind of that were awkward or hard or, you know, eventually makes you stronger
because you spend time figuring out who you are.
I don't know if that makes any sense.
Of course it does.
And don't apologise for that or don't diminish that.
Why do you think we do that?
Just like a confident woman, sometimes there's consequences to that and also women in public,
I think, get judged more harshly than men.
I guess it's just like the needle is kind of moving and like there's the kind of old
behaviour and the new behaviour in terms of how we move through the world.
And speaking of confident women, you're a director now.
You are like boss of a set.
What is that feeling like?
There's something really magical about telling your own stories.
I think like I've grown up on film sets and it's a space that is very comfortable for me
and I really love and I love being with a group of people.
You've got the technical people, the crew, and then you've got the artistic people
in terms of the actor and the director and together you kind of come together and
you tell the story and it's just the vibe on any set is usually pretty great
because you're creating something and it's challenging.
And usually I'm in the middle of that, you know, in front of the camera
and to kind of then be behind the camera but also have brought all these people together
and you've kind of chosen who you feel like is going to come together and
tell the story together and there's something very satisfying about it.
You know, it's a lot of responsibility as well.
I just really enjoyed it.
Yeah, it feels also like for this time in my life as well to kind of progress into,
you know, a more mature person who's helping other people
and to step into that space is something really beautiful about that.
I love that too because I love getting older because I love the experience
and the confidence that comes with that and even seeing the way your face changes,
Frances, when you talk about stepping onto the set and having that role.
What though, when you first began that, when you first were on the set,
on that first day as director, how did you feel on the inside?
Were you scared? Were you nervous?
I tell you what, there is no space really for nerves or there's just no space because
what is required is so much bigger than you.
You just ought to try and make it work.
But also any time a first-time director steps up, there's always like naysayers who are like,
oh, let's see how you go kind of thing.
I did notice my Aussie accent in those moments did become stronger.
Because that kind of thing when people kind of say, oh, I'm not sure if you can do it,
just actually makes me more determined.
And I do think that is slightly part of the Aussie spirit, maybe.
But anyway, I found like the first day too, it's interesting because you've got a group
of actors and they know you're an actor and they know this is your first moment
to go over to the other side.
So there's a little bit kind of like not quite taking you seriously until eventually they're
like, oh, okay, you do know what you're doing.
And then they just kind of get into the story as well, the imagination of the story,
which is what we were all doing together.
And so how then did you, I suppose, delineate that line to go, no, I'm a director now.
You take me seriously.
You listen to what I'm saying.
Well, I always just feel like if you're concentrating on the right thing,
which is just the work, if you're worrying about what people think about you,
which is something that is pretty endemic for women,
you know, please love me.
But if you're just into the work, which is your job, then everything else just falls into place.
I think that was something that Bill Nye said.
Like he just turns up and he puts his focus on the work.
And so that's what I did.
And it pretty much just kind of started rolling along and everyone just got into the story,
And, you know, we had we had a really a great time.
We did like two weeks rehearsal and I got like a three-piece band to come up to Yorkshire
to kind of warm up every morning, the actors, and so they could dance.
And I had a dance person come and we sang church hymns and we improvised.
So that all the actors really, you know, started connecting
and developing these friendships together, which was great.
And they've all kind of kept friends afterwards, which is always a great sign, I think.
And I do that because I really believe that to get something real on screen,
because you can look after yourself in a close-up without anything from the other actor,
because the camera's only ever on one person on the whole.
But there's nothing like feeling like, oh, I do trust this other actor
and we're doing the scene together.
And that goes onto the screen.
And that's what people, that's what the audience go, oh, I felt that too.
Because you've actually created a moment that's 100% real, you know.
And often you get to a point in your life and you think, oh, can I still do this?
Or I've always wanted to do this.
No, no, I don't want to do it.
But you've done it.
You know, you've stepped out of your sort of lane, so to speak,
being an incredibly accomplished actor.
But you've written this extraordinary script.
You've directed this movie.
You've taken that leap of faith.
What has that meant for you?
And how has that made you feel?
That's such a great question.
Oh, it's made me feel a little emotional.
Yeah, it's been great.
Because you kind of like, it would have been safer just to stay an actor.
And, you know, I could have maintained that probably for the rest of my life.
But I just knew I had this other thing in me that I've had since I was really young.
And even when I was in acting school, I was still writing a lot.
And so to kind of finally honor that, just feel there's something really
beautiful about that and great and kind of very holistic about doing that, I think.
And like you say, to do it after 50 feels like, well, why didn't you just do it sooner?
And it's just like, well, I wasn't really ready to do that.
And, you know, if you're growing, if you're a mom as well,
you know, you really have to be present for your kids.
And like my son's 17 now, so things have kind of opened up a bit.
He's less interested in hanging out with us.
So I finally feel like, okay, I know he's going to be okay.
And now I can kind of finally do this thing that I've always wanted to do.
And yeah, I think for women, women in their 50s, I don't see why we can't still be
gorgeous and ourselves and empowered and have something to say.
And I think it's a really great time.
I'm excited about it.
And also to come into our own.
And I think sometimes I know that can be scary.
Because it can be easy.
The easy way out sometimes is just to go, well, this has served me well.
So I'm just going to keep going along this path.
And so I'm really keen to get from you because I know a lot of our listeners would love to hear
what it was that made you think, no, you know, I've been working on this script for
I've got people saying, no, they don't want to fund this film.
No, they're not interested in this.
But you kept going.
And what was it that made you keep going and think, no, I have a story and it's a story
that needs to be shared?
I guess because it's about a woman's voice and it's about being authentic to who you are.
And by me telling this story, I was also on this kind of meta way being true to who I was
and my own authenticity.
So I really felt there was just something, just something very not driven, but there was
something where I was like, I really need this to happen and I'm just going to keep
going until I get some traction.
And until I, you know, and I was, we did a bunch of readings with some actors too at
home, just, you know, people in the profession and everybody sort of said, we really love
this story and we think it's ready and oh, I'd love to see that.
And that was the feedback we started getting back from eventually from producers as well.
I gave it to my dear friend, Rob Connolly, you know, who did the dry and he's got blue
back out at the moment and he's got two teenage daughters.
And he said, oh gosh, I think there's something here.
I actually think you've got a great story.
So he was someone who just went, I believe in the story and I believe in you.
And I really think this could be something.
And I had a lot of friends who also supported me.
So I think that's really important.
Like if you want to do something big, that feels like a very different kind of move.
I think it's important to have people around you that support you through that and go,
yeah, I can see that this could be good or you need to work more on this.
Like I had a lot of people who just went, okay, keep working.
We did early readings of it where people are like, okay, yeah, there's some good stuff in
there, but you really have some work to do.
So I could have easily given up, but I just decided to kind of kick on and do more.
And it's good on you for keeping on, keeping on.
Because often it's sort of at those moments, I think, where we want to give up,
where you just want to, is when it's the most important to dig deep.
And especially as women, I think, like I was reading this report that said that guys know
they're going to get to the end of the problem and girls doubt they're going to get to the problem,
but they've got the same maths ability.
And so I think it's that thing for women that, you know, sometimes we feel like,
oh, I'm not going to be able to get there.
Like we second guess ourselves a lot.
And I've done that through my life.
And it's that sort of push and pull of, oh, I don't know, what will people think?
But then it is so freeing and empowering to let go and think, you know what?
I'm just going to go for this.
And if it fails dismally, also be it.
I'd much rather give it a good crack.
And I think it's important to embrace that you are going to fail, actually.
And there were moments during this process where I know I did fail
and I'd never beat myself up about it.
I just would pick myself up and educate myself about, okay, why did that happen?
And then move on and just keep my focus on the end game,
which is to try and tell this story in the best way that I can.
I'm really happy to be in that space of like risk taking
and to take a risk and see what happens, you know, creatively.
Because I read a quote of yours that was essentially,
to be a human, to be a human being is to be creative.
Oh, that's a good one.
I don't remember that.
Well, I was talking to my sister yesterday.
We were having a couple of tea and she said, and we were just saying that
some people are more creative than others
and they've got an inherent kind of creative spirit.
And that doesn't mean that they have to be an artist.
My sister's a botanist and her garden is like a work of art.
It's just gorgeous.
And that's how she expresses her creativity.
So I think, yeah, I think creativity is very fundamental to being human
and kind of one of the best bits about us, I think.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That I think is a really exciting way to think about being creative
because often you're right.
I have this sense of, oh, if you're creative, you're in the arts.
You're a performer.
You're a director.
You're an artist.
But of course we can be creative regardless of what career
or what it is that makes our heart sing.
Yeah, because it's just about communicating an idea to other people,
whether that is like your garden.
So it's a beautiful kind of sensual place to be in.
And that's kind of a gift that you're giving to the people that come to your place
or telling this story about Emily in a way that I feel is evocative
so that for the audience, it's this beautiful experience.
And I think that's when art is good.
But rather than thinking about the performance of it
and that I've got to then be on show with my art
rather than this thing that you're giving people.
And yeah, I think that can be big or small.
It doesn't really matter as long as you get into the process
of creating something is the most important thing.
And that's where the reward for me was making it.
And then also like seeing the audience understand
what I was trying to do in a cinema is kind of really special too.
What I'd love to talk about is the auditioning process.
And how you felt because of course you know what it's like
as an actor to audition and really want a part.
How did you feel as a director watching actors give it their all?
Yeah, it's painful.
It's just painful watching actors do what you do.
It looks so vulnerable.
And did you write emails to the actors who missed out?
Everybody who kind of got close.
I did write emails to just say that they did a beautiful job
and I love them as an actor and I'm wishing them all the best.
And because that feeling when you don't get a part
and you wanted it so badly, I just really felt that.
And it's just like you can't write emails to everybody.
It's just like we've got to temper it with maybe the people
that get into that last couple.
But yeah, I do empathise.
That was a little pathological, but hey, what can you do?
Oh no, I think that's a beautiful thing to do.
Now, well, Frances, I have loved talking to you.
Oh, I love talking to you, Jess.
I'm going to be braver this year thanks to you.
I'm going to be braver too.
Look, you've got this beautiful, beautiful film, Emily.
And I can't wait to see what it is you do next.
What story you share next with us.
Yeah, I'm excited to do.
Yeah, we can do it.
We'll do another one in a year or so.
Thank you so much.
Oh, gee, I love talking with Frances.
There is so much that I learnt from her.
I want to be brave like her and to give things a go.
And I tell you what, do not miss her beautiful movie, Emily.
I loved reading the book Wuthering Heights when I was a teenager.
And Frances has created this incredible world of Emily Bronte.
So that movie, Emily, the portrait of Emily Bronte, it's in cinemas now.
For more big conversations like this, follow the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
It means you are never going to miss an episode.
And if there's someone in your life that you think will enjoy this conversation,
share it with them.
And if you love this episode with Frances,
I reckon you'll enjoy my chat with guest David Wenham.
All you have to do is two things, and they seem very, very simple things,
is listen, listen real, think, think real.
If you do those two things, everything else falls into place.
And it seems such a simple thing.
But I can tell you that 90% of actors don't actually do either of those things.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe.
Executive producer, Nick McClure.
Audio producer, Nikki Sitch.
Supervising producer, Sam Cavanaugh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.