It's not like doing the work to get to a cure, right, it's doing the work to understand
me and how my mind works and understand how I can manage it, what strategies I know I
can deploy to curb things or stop spirals and so it's this constant battle.
You're battling your own mind and it's an enemy that never tires.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
Dr Matt Agnew is probably best known for his role on The Bachelor, but he's so much more.
Matt is an astrophysicist and is passionate about educating people about the beauty and
magic of science.
He's recently written a book called Dr Matt's Guide to Life in Space.
What you're about to hear is one of the most intimate conversations I've had on the podcast.
For the first time, Matt opens up about what he calls his salad of mental illness and it
was a privilege for me to have this vulnerable conversation with such a special man.
Before we get started, a gentle warning, our conversation touches on suicide.
Now Matt, it's so lovely to have you in the studio.
This is the first time we've actually met.
I feel like I know you though because I've admired you from afar and the work that you
I want to know first of all, what is it about science that you love so much?
There's a few things.
I think kind of philosophically, there's this elegance to it.
I think to explain the world around us and a lot of scientific theory is trying to, I
guess, apply Occam's razor, so to speak, the simplest explanation, the simplest hypothesis
is the one that usually carries the most weight.
It ends up being that a lot of things, we have really elegant equations to explain these
and there's something really beautiful about that, that the universe is able to explain
with these in this really elegant way.
Then I think it's just the unknown.
I think all of us from when we're very young, we have that childlike curiosity and I don't
think that ever goes away.
It kind of maybe goes to sleep as we get older, but it's always there.
And I think for me, science is about that, finding out the unknown, coming up with creative
solutions to ideas and exploring them further.
So I think that's a mixed bag of reasons that I find science really interesting and fascinating.
I adore that you say the elegance of science.
I mean, that to me makes science sound very sexy and that's the exact opposite of my experience
of physics in high school.
To me, that sounds magic.
I think magic is probably the good word for it.
And there's that quote, I can't remember who said it, but it's if the technology of the
science behind something is so invisible to someone using it, then it's kind of not discernible
And I think there is that kind of element to technology and science that there is this
sense of awe and wonder to it, that magic kind of encompasses that description quite well.
So how then does someone inspired by this awe and wonder, you're an astrophysicist.
I mean, you're a doctor, the first doctor that we've had on the Jess Road big talk show.
How does someone like you end up on The Bachelor?
I mean, I can see because you're hot, but apart from that.
So at the time when I applied, I had been single for a while and I think a lot of single
people were on the dating apps trying to meet someone, was having varied degrees of success
and I just applied almost as a bit of a, this might make an amusing story or something
memorable and I applied for The Bachelorette, not The Bachelor.
So I was applying to be one of the suitors, I guess, and ended up they took me on for
an interview and I had to pass by for a couple of times because a life got in the way.
But then there was one year where I applied again.
I thought, you know, I'm single.
We'll see how we go.
Best case, I meet someone, worst case, I meet a lot of friends and have this really unique
experience and they called me up and had an interview and that went great.
And they said, yeah, another interview.
And it wasn't until the third interview where they said something along the lines of, so
how are you going to handle having several women interested to talk to you and date you?
And up until then, I thought I was one of the many.
So I said, what do you mean?
There's this one woman, right?
What do you mean?
They said, no, no, The Bachelor works, there's multiple women.
So it was only that stage that I realized, okay, wait, they've actually changed what
I'm actually applying for and they put me forward for The Bachelor.
And then I kept going to these interviews, kept waiting for the call that was you're
great, but you know, thanks, but no thanks.
And it just kind of never came and eventually found myself on the show handing out roses.
And what was that like as a viewer watching The Bachelor?
I just think that is my worst nightmare.
Yeah, I mean, I probably hadn't done my due diligence in terms of watching much of the show.
So, I mean, I loosely knew the dynamic, obviously, but I'd never really watched in depth.
So it was a bit of a surprise and a bit of a baptism by fire.
And the funny thing about reality shows is often there's very little reality.
And so I think in this case, you know, it doesn't mimic any kind of real life scenario at all.
I don't date multiple people at once.
Some people do and, you know, kudos if that's if everyone's on the same page in that situation.
But it was a very unique experience.
It's much bigger production than I anticipated.
There was, you know, 50, 60 people on set at any given time.
So it's a lot bigger than I think I gave credit for the filming and production process at least.
But yeah, it was it was challenging.
I think for me, even from the first day sending anyone home, I found it quite hard.
It's, you know, you know, you're hurting someone regardless of when it happens in the process.
Because you're a sensitive soul, aren't you?
And so I did have a kind of deep empathy even from the first night where, I mean,
you've met a lot of these women for less than half an hour.
And so there's not a really deep connection by any stretch.
But sending them home, it was still they're going to think about it as, oh, what was wrong with me?
And you know, there's going to be that kind of self-doubt and that you've contributed to that in some way.
So it was really tough that aspect.
I never got used to that.
I don't know if others have, but that was really hard.
The whole scenario of being respectful and empathetic
and being able to be conscious and considerate of other people's feelings
in a situation where it's inherently very, very emotionally charged.
There's a lot of emotion involved and a lot of potential for being hurt was really hard to navigate.
And I tried my best to always maintain that respect and compassion.
Sometimes despite best intentions, it doesn't translate.
But it's certainly something that I found really challenging in the process.
We have had Abby Chatfield on the show and she's this extraordinary.
I mean, you know Abby better than probably most of us.
And she fell in love with you on that particular series.
And what we'd like to do, Matt, is play to you something that she said about you when I interviewed her.
I think when you go on these shows, you think,
oh, who cares what some random person in Wagga Wagga says about you?
But when you're having millions of comments,
I really think there's something happens to your brain when you're reading those things about yourself,
regardless of who's it from, when there's thousands and thousands a day.
And every article about you, every Facebook post about you has the more angry face reactions
because you're on their screen, they're so angry.
And it was just, it was really hard.
And with Matt as well, I'd also been through a breakup.
You know, I loved him and it was just so sad.
And that was so clear, the connection that the two of you had.
There are feelings there.
That's, I've never said or felt anything that wasn't there.
That's not anything that was wrong or missing.
And it's just that my heart longs for someone else.
It was incredibly hard to see what happened post-show
and not being able to reach out and provide support directly.
It was a really hard situation for me to navigate because I wanted to,
there was firstly the element of any kind of breakup,
there's a chance to talk things through afterwards.
And she's robbed of that opportunity,
which is one thing that I wanted to be able to establish
and allow her that opportunity to ask questions,
to invent if that's what she wanted to do,
but just have something after a breakup.
And then several months after filming and everything went to air,
then obviously, yeah, there's this barrage of trolling and criticism,
tremendously unfair criticism.
I struggled a lot with, I wanted to be there for her and I couldn't
and I probably regret that a little bit.
I wish I had have done more.
And I tried to in any opportunity in an interview
to make it clear that there wasn't some sort of animosity.
I think the way it came across
and certainly the story that people were asking me
were pursuing a line of questioning that suggested that
after seeing her behavior, I didn't like her or something to that effect.
And that was completely untrue.
On screen, there was a very obvious deep connection there
and that didn't just disappear after everything finished.
You don't just turn off the fact that you had a connection with someone.
And so the opportunities I had in interview,
I'd always go into bat as much as I could.
But at the time, I was also navigating a public relationship
and you're also under intense scrutiny.
And I really wasn't sure how to do that.
I had to be respectful of my partner at the time.
Obviously reaching out to an ex is something that could also be quite painful for them.
It's a lot on your shoulders
when you're thrown into this bizarre maelstrom of sort of commentary
and as you say, trolling and everyone having a say on something
when it involves your heart,
which is something that's very personal and close to you.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think there's this boundary that almost doesn't exist.
The audience sees this thing play out on national television
and assumes they still will have unfettered access to you
and your relationship post-show.
And you try and establish boundaries,
but there's still this almost expectation that they have.
And so you're emotionally deeply invested.
You're balancing loads of feelings.
You're trying to navigate this commentary and criticism.
There's a lot of gossipy articles trying to fan the flames
that, you know, people are cheating
and Abby's trying to break them up and all this.
It's all just made up nonsense.
But you've got real people who are battling
and trying to nurse themselves back to health
after a really emotionally challenging traumatic event.
And they're not being allowed that
and they're certainly not being allowed that privately.
And so it was really hard to navigate.
And the first opportunity I had to reach out to Abby, I did.
And there was a lot of things that she assumed I was thinking
and feeling that were very untrue.
She thought, again, that the story that was trying
to be perpetuated, that I, you know,
had this animosity towards her, that I disliked her,
that I, you know, had the wall pulled over my eyes
and that now I saw the real her.
And I, you know, very quickly shut that down
and said that's never been something that I've entertained,
that I met you and I know who you are
from the time we spent together
and know showing me the behind the scenes
or something like I ended up not watching the show
after about episode five, I think,
because I could see how untrue that representation of her was.
So, yeah, I think both of us had this really warped sense
of how each other felt about one another.
And so I was really good to be able to clear that up
and reestablish our connection in a platonic friendship manner.
And I certainly have a really deep affection for her
and I'm really grateful to have that friendship
and to have her as part of my life.
Because you still do catch up.
I saw a lovely pic of the two of you on Insta recently.
Yeah, yeah, so we caught up a lot more
when I was still living in Sydney, obviously down in Melbourne
and, you know, her schedule is incredibly packed.
I mean, she's a superstar, which is just,
I mean, she's the business, I adore her, I really do.
Yeah, it's been, I've loved seeing it.
She's taken a pretty rough hand that was dealt to her
and turned it into this enormous runaway success.
And it's not some fluke.
She is incredibly smart and incredibly hardworking
and that's very evident to anyone
looking how many things she's currently juggling
And I've loved seeing the fact
that she just keeps having success after success.
And people ask me, how do I feel
as if I'd be upset about that?
But if you see your friend succeeding, you're happy,
you're elated about that result.
So I very much love Abby in a very platonic,
deep, affectionate friendship manner.
And I love seeing her continue to kick goal after goal.
It must give you some sense of solace
to sort of have almost come the full circle
when there was this false narrative out there
about both of you and then you've now got
this really lovely friendship that's endured,
something good that's come out of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And we've spoke about it before
that potentially the rate of success
after filming is very challenging
because I mean, like I said,
you're thrown in this really high octane world
and heavy scrutiny and commentary
and you're balancing a lot of things.
And so the chances of success
in a relationship was probably much lower.
Whereas now we've got this friendship
that's almost certainly gonna be a lifelong friendship.
And so for us, we got more out of it in this way.
And I think we both really treasure
what we've ultimately ended up with.
And while we both had really challenging times
as part of the experience,
we've managed to navigate that
and now have this beautiful friendship
that we're both really happy that we've got.
And I think sometimes friendships aren't given the,
I don't know what the right word is,
but the value, the currency that should be
in the sense that it's this,
sometimes there's this overwhelming pressure
that the relationship is what you must go after.
Whereas a beautiful friendship is just as rewarding
and enriching to your life.
And I think that should be recognised more.
Let's talk now about how we appear to the wider world,
but what actually is going on with us on the inside.
As I said at the outset,
I've admired you from afar for so long.
And so you look like you're someone who has it all together.
Yeah, I think, I mean, it's the cliche, right?
The social media is the highlights reel.
And I think that's definitely true for me.
I've said I dislike social media because of that.
And then I have actively contributed to that myself.
I've had a long battle with mental illness for a long time.
I first started seeing a psychologist
when I was 12 years old.
I was struggling with quite bad anxiety as a child.
So much so that I missed a lot of school,
just kind of inconsolable
before going to school in the mornings, hyperventilating.
I was throwing up a lot of the mornings
and my folks were a bit at a loss of how to navigate that.
And so I started seeing a psychologist back then.
And then about a bit over a decade ago,
I was diagnosed with clinical depression
and have been on antidepressants
essentially since then for over a decade.
And I've had a few challenges throughout that.
And I haven't really talked about that particularly much openly.
I think some of my posts maybe reading between the lines
suggest that I've had some battles.
They got really bad a few years ago, 2021,
where I tried to end my life in 2021.
Sorry for the moment.
I ended up in hospital.
I don't remember the experience much.
I remember actively making the decision to end it
and doing some particular actions to do that.
And I woke up in hospital.
I don't remember much.
I don't remember the hospital stay particularly much.
I was discharged and five weeks later,
I had all the plans in place for a second attempt
and was stopped by friends.
And this was during COVID.
And my mum flew into lockdown.
I was in Sydney and she flew into lockdown.
And I was kind of just inconsolable
and ended up being admitted as an inpatient for three weeks.
At a mental health hospital.
And then I, sorry, I'm trying to just remember it all.
There's nothing to apologize for because, I mean,
for you to share in this way is such a big thing, Matt.
And I thank you for sharing in this way.
So don't ever apologize.
And also, when you're in the midst of that,
it's like you're the only one.
And by you sharing, other people listening
realize that there is always hope.
And I think about my mum who has bipolar disorder.
And there have been many times when
she's had to go to hospital because we've
been worried about what she might do.
So don't ever apologize.
And it's important to talk about because this
is hard, hard stuff.
But if we don't share it, it doesn't either help ourselves
or help people we love.
And help people who are listening to this conversation
also thinking, looking at you going,
here is this smart, intelligent, funny, handsome man
who has had moments in his life where
he hasn't wanted to be here.
And we don't talk about that enough
and how we can get through that.
And I'm just so sorry that you've been that low.
Yeah, 2021 was bad.
I got further psychiatric care.
And my adjusted diagnosis was, or is,
bipolar II, generalized anxiety disorder and emotion
dysregulation, which I refer to as my salad of mental illness.
And you know what, though?
We've got to laugh because otherwise we do cry.
And we have to kind of see that it
could be your word salad of mental illness.
And so I've been on a cocktail of medication to cope with that.
I have since, I've had several more stumbles
and falls quite deep into the hole.
I have been quite destructive to myself.
I've had moments where I've certainly self-harmed.
I don't think I've actively tried in my life like I did in 2021.
But I have done things, I think, where that was a potential outcome
and I didn't care.
That was as recent as last year.
And yeah, it's exhausting when I'm in a trough or a low.
I see a psychologist and a psychiatrist regularly.
I have two GPs, a whole sweet medical team.
But we need that.
We need people around us to get through, don't we?
I get frustrated sometimes because it just
feels like so much effort and work and financially
very expensive for me and I imagine thousands of Australians to exist.
That for me to have a baseline that isn't dangerous is so much work.
And I want to make sure this isn't a woe is me type story because it's not.
It doesn't discriminate.
I think everyone kind of knows.
I think that's a mantra that's kind of well understood now.
And I think I've had periods where I've not wanted to be here.
And I'm in kind of a good spot at the moment and looking back
and thinking about those times.
And I think it's thinking about family and friends
and the impact it would have on them.
In the dark moments, I can't see that.
I just want to sometimes it's not about wanting to end my life.
It's about wanting to stop the pain.
Eventually, when I get through the other side,
then I can recognize that a lot more about just how damaging that ripple is
and I think that's something that I try to keep at the front and center a lot more
is those relationships that I have, the family unit that I'm a part of
and how close we are and the friendship circle
and how deeply I love and care for them and they love and care for me.
And I live on the other side of the country to my family
and my friends will rapidly deploy and assemble as soon as something's wrong.
They've definitely saved me.
I've told them, but I don't know if they know sometimes how much they have.
I'm kind of acutely aware, part of bipolar,
that I'm certainly in more of a upswing at the moment,
kind of hyper manic episode, more so than a trough.
It's not as pronounced as a manic episode in bipolar one,
but I can tell when I just start loading myself up with more and more things
and I'm highly energized and highly social
and I can almost only now with that knowledge know that this,
I need to kind of control things a bit more and try and put things in place
because it's just as bad for me to go really high as it is to go really low.
And so it's this constant battle, I guess, and management and it's...
Exhausting though, as you say.
It is, it is and it's, you're battling your own mind and it's an enemy that never tires.
And you've got an extraordinary mind, a very smart mind.
So yeah, it is exhausting and there was a quote I remember
that I do think about a lot which is,
mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility
and I know that I have to do the work and it is why I look after my physical health.
I see a psychologist for therapy,
I see a psychiatrist for additional therapy and medication tweaks.
I have GPs I regularly check in.
I make sure I socialize even if I'm feeling flat.
I know it's important to help all those one percenters, right,
that everyone knows is important for a healthy life.
But also the first things to drop off when things are getting tough
and so trying to really force myself to do these things.
And so there's, I think it's tiring because sometimes it feels like
I am doing all the work and it's not getting better.
But I think it's about managing.
The work is important for me, but it's about,
it's not like doing the work to get to a cure, right.
It's doing the work to understand me and how my mind works
and understand how I can manage it,
what strategies I know I can deploy to curb things or stop spirals.
What are the triggers that I've slowly identified over years of
triggering events and rapid declines?
What have been the sources of that decline and identifying
what can I do to passively avoid them so I don't even have to think about it
and what can I do to actively avoid them?
And so it is, it's a several pronged approach to manage it and work through it
and to live, it's been tremendously disruptive to my life of,
I mean, publicly, I think people have seen that I had to postpone the book tour
that I had planned and off the back of this conversation,
it's probably no surprise it was because I was in a very deep hole.
I had a very serious episode.
But over the years, it's been tremendously disruptive.
When I was an inpatient for three weeks, my life is on hold.
When I have a really bad episode, my life is on hold.
And it's hard having a life that I shouldn't say that
because there are much harder lives than mine,
but it's an additional hardship to keep putting your life on hold
because your brain keeps turning on you and just not working for you.
But it is hard and I think it's important to recognise that it's not fair.
I have often had this discussion with my mum
and with her bipolar as well, it's been enormously disruptive
and she's the smartest person I know.
And she could have done, in terms of career-wise,
the most extraordinary things in her life,
but she couldn't because her illness would frequently end her up in hospital.
And I'd say, this isn't fair.
And she'd say, but Jessica, no one ever said it was going to be fair.
You know, life isn't fair.
And for her, it's, well, I haven't chosen my illness,
but I can choose how I deal with it.
And listening to you, Matt,
that's very much seems to be how you're paving your way through it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's no one's fault, anyone who's got a mental illness.
It's the hand we were dealt and there isn't a cure.
There's no panacea.
There's no silver bullet.
There's no, you know, it's not like a cold that two weeks later you're done.
Yeah, full stop, next.
Yep, you know, look, I clocked it.
I won mental illness.
It's an ongoing, I hate the term, journey, but it is ongoing.
Oh, I know, but I tell you what, it is a journey.
It is, it is, it is.
And it's, yeah, as you said with your mum,
I've been hospitalised three times, twice in ED.
And there are no places for someone in the middle of an episode,
and that's what really angers and upsets me
when people are at that crisis point.
That's not where you need to be.
No, and it's, it keeps you safe,
but obviously it's not doing wonders for your mental health.
It's probably keeping it the same,
or sometimes it can make it worse being in those environments,
I remember a really close friend of mine saying once
after my incident in 2021,
wrote a really lovely note to me and also said,
rock bottom's not great,
but as long as you are safe,
it's not the worst place to be.
And I think about that a lot that I still might not have hit rock bottom yet,
but as long as I can keep myself safe,
it's still a place from which we can rebuild with the right help.
And I do think about that quite a lot and he's someone very close to me
who's helped me a lot through a lot of these battles
I've had in the last few years, especially so.
Oh, Matt, I think as well,
what's important to recognise is you're an extraordinary
brave and courageous man.
It takes enormous courage to just put one foot in front of the other
when you are in that dark hole,
to keep going, to just get up.
I marvel at that.
I hope you know that how brave that is
and to just do that to exist is so brave.
Thank you. Yeah, it's there's no mystery behind it.
I wouldn't have kept going if it wasn't for my family and friends.
And so my experiences have also highlighted to me
the severity of the mental health system strain.
I mean, it's awful that I have this particular salad of mental illness,
but there would be people with a similar situation to me
that might not have the same friend and family support network.
I'm very privileged in that I've got stable employment.
I've been able to afford that additional level of mental care
and physical care as well
and just that suite of mental health professionals that assist me.
And again, I'm very privileged in that way
and other people don't have that.
And it's to me highlighted how dangerous it is for a large majority.
I imagine a large majority of Australians that don't have that network
and don't have the finances to be able to seek out
that additional level of help and support.
And even myself when I've had some really bad breakdowns
and have sought additional psychiatric support
and it's taken 10 weeks to get in.
In that 10 weeks, I had a second breakdown
and it again highlighted that the system is under so much strain
and that it's only going to get worse.
I think the trauma off the back of COVID
is only really starting to manifest now for a lot of people
and especially young kids and children
where we don't know the impacts that lockdowns have had
on their social development
and how much that will occur or manifest as challenges mentally
and they will need assistance to navigate that new world
where they are missing this developmental period.
And so there's only going to be increasing strain on the system
and there needs to be more,
I don't know what the answer is specifically,
but incentivise more people to pursue mental health careers
and to try and alleviate some of that pressure that's on the system
and so that people don't wait 10 or 12 weeks
is not quick enough for someone who's getting to crisis state.
It's not, and as you say, you get worse during that time,
your loved ones worry more and more
and the point you make too is so many families and individuals
are dealing with this as you and I speak right now.
And with that in mind, what could you say to someone
who is really at a low point and thinking,
I can't see a way through this, what would you say to them?
You will get off the bottom.
When we're in that hole, it doesn't look like it.
There isn't an off the bottom.
And without the resources that I've had,
that challenge is compounded enormously.
I think the first step would be to seek out a mental health plan from your GP,
ideally if they're bulk-billed
and your mental health plan can then heavily subsidize those sessions.
Even with subsidies, they can still be out of reach for a lot of people
and with the cost of living rising,
it's hard to say prioritize it when there's so many other things that are important.
I think if you can make that work, then that is something to pursue
and the challenge is you only get 10 sessions with the mental health plan
after the cut, which I think is a terrible idea,
especially as I said, things are only really starting to manifest from COVID.
But it can take four or five sessions
before you actually start noticing how therapy can impact you
or even knowing if that therapist is the right one for you.
So if you can make that, it sounds like such a cliche,
but the reason is because there's so much science to back up psychological therapy
and how much it can improve mental health.
Something a bit more accessible
is to lean on friends and family as much as you can
and to have these conversations.
I'm very blessed with the group that I have
that I can speak very candidly with my male friends,
which in particular is an area that hasn't been a priority in the past,
but I can speak with my male friends very candidly
about where I'm at, my emotions, my feelings.
I've cried in front of several of them when I've been in really dark places.
Have these conversations, they are uncomfortable when you first do them,
and then they're easy and then you realise that
everyone cares and loves you, your friends and family especially.
So that's probably the most accessible one
and probably the one that is most impactful in the immediate term.
So probably the thing to lean on the most is to do that
and know that there is a way off the bottom and it's not easy, it's hard,
but there is a way off the bottom and once you're off the bottom,
you'll be so grateful that you're still here
and so will everyone else.
And as you say, to have those conversations
because blokes on the whole are not so great at having them.
Yeah, absolutely and it is a relic of a different time
and a negative manifestation of the patriarchal system as well,
this stoicism, this lack of emotion.
You know, it's seen as being wimpy or weak or vulnerable
and it's just bullshit for lack of a better word.
We're all humans, humans are incredibly social creatures
and we have an entire spectrum of emotions
that we should be able to express in healthy ways
and to truncate that spectrum and remove those expressions of emotion
leads to all kinds of incredibly dangerous and negative
and destructive manifestations
and blokes are doing that, they're truncating that spectrum of emotion
and they're doing sometimes awful things to themselves or others.
And I think that that's changing the discussions around emotion and feelings,
but there's still stigmas and you hear it every now and then.
Do you feel the stigma?
Do you feel sharing in the way that you have?
What will people think?
I still do a little with regard to relationships.
There's no anecdotal reason that I feel that way.
I think it's just some of these outdated ideas are still,
there's still some claws in me, I guess.
In terms of with my friends and family,
I'm comfortable being incredibly vulnerable and open with them
and sharing emotions, feelings, like I said, crying.
It's important and if you can't do that around your friends and family,
who can you do it around?
It's such an important part of emotional regulation,
which my psychiatrist has said I have very poor.
In fact, it's emotional dysregulation is the diagnosis and it's awful.
I'm very bad at it.
But I also know that things like being able to cry
and being able to release these things and talk about these things still do help.
There's some extra steps I'll need to add to that with my psychologist's assistance,
but for a large majority of men, they're not doing it and they need to be doing it.
And it's one of the reasons that the patriarchal system does need to be unseated.
And I think a lot of men don't realize that trying to rid ourselves of the patriarchy
is not an attack on men.
You are just as much a victim of these really negative stereotypes
that this system embodies.
And so I think that's probably the most obvious for men is this lack of expression.
And so I don't feel that, yeah, with friends and family, I do a little bit with relationships.
And as I said, there's no reason for that.
It's not that like it's ever gone wrong where, you know, I've been too vulnerable or too candid.
That's never happened.
But I think it still just sits in me a little bit just from the system.
Matt, thank you for opening up in the way you have.
You are such a special man.
I'm going to walk away from the microphone and give you a hug.
Can I just give you a hug?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And then I'll ask you one other thing, but I just want to give you a hug.
Thank you for sharing in the way you have.
How I suppose like to finish.
We've spoken about medication, the importance of medication,
seeing your doctor, but other things that are pretty good.
And we both share this is sugar.
And I love sugar.
That is one of my self-care things that I do.
And I know you do as well.
What is it that you love about sugar?
It's just so good.
There's a lot of people who eat something and say, oh, that's too rich.
I could only have a couple of mouthfuls.
I've never had that.
No, I'm with you.
I've never had a bite of a kegathor.
I'm going to stop there.
There's no such thing as far as I'm concerned.
So no, I love sugar.
It just tastes good.
It makes me feel good.
I don't have many vices anymore.
I've removed most of those.
So I think sugar for me, you know, arguably it's not the healthiest thing,
but I don't care.
I've got to have a vice.
If you're going to have vices, I think sugar is the best.
And perhaps we could finish where we began with sort of the magic of science
and the magic of space.
And I came across this quote that I just loved from Carl Sagan.
You know, he was this incredible science educator and genius.
And it was along the lines of, we are made of star stuff.
We are a way for the universe to know itself.
And that gives me goosebumps.
I love this quote.
Carl Sagan was a hero of mine, but I love this quote as well because,
and I've heard someone's interpretation of it,
we're in the universe, but the universe is also in us
because of this very fact that we're made of star stuff.
And so there is this beautiful elegance to that,
that the calcium in your bones, the iron in your blood,
the carbon that makes you up, all of this was formed in the core of dying stars.
And so it is, it's beautiful, I think.
And there's no other way to describe it as this elegant beauty the universe has.
And we're the product of the universe and we're learning about the universe
and we're part of the universe and it's also part of us.
And it's this beautiful closed loop system.
And I love that quote.
It's one of my favorites.
I think it's one that resonates so strongly with people.
It's got such a human quality to it.
And for someone like myself who is not a scientist,
who failed physics dismally,
I get now that magic and joy of science and space by that very thing.
To be made of star stuff is just the best.
It's beautiful. I love it.
You know, it's one of the reasons science is so fun,
is learning these new things about the world,
understanding the universe in ways we haven't previously understood it.
And you get these beautiful elements that no matter what your interest in science is,
it's going to resonate with everyone
because there is so much that we share as humans with one another
that we forget that sometimes and this ties it together.
It reminds us all that we're all star stuff.
We're all the same in this way.
And I think that's really beautiful.
Matt, thank you for being star stuff
and sharing in such a beautiful, open and vulnerable way.
Thank you. I'm so thankful and grateful.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. I really appreciate having me on.
I've still got that lump in my throat and wiping away tears.
Matt and I did shed tears together.
I was clutching his hand throughout our conversation.
And isn't he the most incredible man?
And I felt enormously privileged to be able to sit and share that conversation with him
and his generous, big, beautiful heart and brain.
I mean, he's got it all.
Please, though, if Matt's story did bring up issues for you
or for someone you love, Lifeline is there.
You can reach out on 13 11 14.
As well, Beyond Blue are an incredible organisation
and they have some fabulous resources.
Their website is beyondblue.org.au.
For more big conversations like this, follow the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
It means you'll never ever miss an episode.
And if there's someone in your life who you think might benefit from this conversation,
share it with them.
And if you love this chat with Matt, I think you'll enjoy my episode with Osher Ginsburg.
You can't use a sick brain to think your way out of the problems of having a sick brain.
It doesn't. It's like trying to bite your own teeth doesn't work.
You actually need someone else's thinking to go, hey, I'm over here.
I'm over here without the panic and the fear.
Did you ever think about maybe, you know, seven cups of coffee might be a bit too much today.
So maybe let's knock it down to about two.
And have you been for a walk around the block?
OK, let's start for a walk around the block.
OK, let's go do that.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe,
executive producer Nick McClure, audio producer Chris Marsh,
supervising producer Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.