All you have to do is two things, and they seem very, very simple things, is listen,
listen real, think, think real.
If you do those two things, everything else falls into place.
And it seems such a simple thing, but I can tell you that 90% of actors don't actually
do either of those things.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe, and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show.
A podcast that skips the small talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
I don't know about you, but I really crave connected conversations, so I'm going to dig
deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we're curious to get to know
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities
that make us human.
David Wenham is one of Australia's best known actors.
He's been in film, theatre and television.
You probably know him from Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Caribbean, or as Diver Dan
And at the moment, he's hosting a new series on ABC called The ABC Of.
I just know that whenever he's on screen, I'm captivated by him, and I wanted to talk
to David about what being an actor means to him, and also what it's like to star alongside
some of Hollywood's biggest stars, including Tony Collette, Nicole Kidman and Johnny Depp.
So I am so excited to be talking to you because you are one of my favourite actors.
Oh, you're very kind, Jess.
It's good to know I have a fan.
Oh, come on, you've got more than one fan.
Because what I think is phenomenal about you is the way you encompass all of your characters
and you're very different.
I mean, I know that's obviously the job of an actor, but I never feel like I'm watching
David Wenham on screen.
I feel like I'm watching whoever it is you are being.
I suppose that probably came from my childhood influences, really.
People like Peter Sellers, huge influence.
Alec Guinness is an actor who was always remarkably different in so many things he did.
And then one of the big influences as well when I was a kid was the creation of Norman
Gunston, which was the most sublime creation and obviously was so far removed from who
the creator was, which was Gary MacDonald, but just such an amazing creation as a performance.
And so they were my influences as a kid.
So when I began acting or, you know, I suppose it was an instinctive thing, really, I always
wanted to just play around and be people further removed from who I was, essentially.
And you mentioned there Peter Sellers and Gary MacDonald as Norman Gunston.
I mean, they are so funny.
They're such comedic characters that they would play.
And was that what you began to do that you would realise the attention you could get
by getting a laugh from people when you were a little boy?
I think you probably spot on there.
From a very early age, I loved making people laugh.
Who knows, we could drill down and talk about that for hours.
But I did. I loved making people laugh and doing stupid things, which I still do.
I still do ridiculously stupid things, which sometimes make people laugh.
But my kids certainly don't laugh anymore.
That's just, you know, just dad.
So they're not the best audience.
But you're making people laugh.
I had a wonderful teacher when I was in primary school, this amazing man from Sri Lanka
called Mr Anton Arulanandam, and he was our English teacher.
And I used to be a very naughty boy at school and spent most of my time outside the school
classroom because the teachers couldn't bear to have me in the classroom because I'd be
But the way that Mr Arulanandam would deal with the situation, he used to put aside the
English lesson on Friday mornings for me to perform for the class, which was an extraordinary
thing for a teacher to do.
And I would do impersonations of people.
I'd do impersonations of Gough Whitlam.
I'd do impersonations of Norman Gunston.
And the students would love it.
I don't think the principal ever knew what we were doing with our English lessons on
a Friday morning.
But it was, yeah, a remarkable thing for somebody to do.
So that teacher whose name you obviously still remember, he recognised something in you.
And I think as young people, everyone wants to feel seen.
And because he could see what you were capable of, he gave you that space to be you, didn't
He was an extraordinary man.
Yeah, an extraordinary man.
There's also another interesting figure in my life at that time.
I went to a Christian brother school and there was a brother there called Brother Hume.
And I used to be very disruptive in his classes.
The school that I went to was, I've got to say, looking back on it now, was incredibly
progressive because on Thursdays we had no school lessons and you could choose what the
sport or activities were.
And amazing things back there.
You could have done typing or cooking or chess or a whole heap of different things.
And one of them was film appreciation.
And I remember one particular class and foolish me, I didn't realise what a gift this guy
was giving us at the time and I used to just muck around.
I was mucking around, you know, so much that he just stopped the film and he just said,
OK, wait a minute, what is the film that we're watching?
Just tell me what's the name of the film we're watching?
And the kid next to me just started whispering, he's going, the damn bastards, the damn bastards.
I couldn't hear him properly.
And I responded, the ten bastards, sir.
And I was kicked out of the class immediately.
Then, however, not long after, only a couple of days after there was a parent-teacher session
and Brother Hume told my parents that, look, you know, I have the class in the palm of
And then suddenly your son just, off he goes and the class follows them and I have no control
And then he said, have you ever thought of sending your child to acting classes?
The very next Saturday, I was marched off to acting classes.
And so it was because of that man, Brother Hume, who also saw something in me and saw
that what was, you know, it was sort of negative energy in the classroom, really, he could
channel it into a positive thing in acting classes, it was.
And so doing then those acting classes, did you feel like this is an awakening for me?
Or was it comfortable?
Or what was that like?
Yeah, it was like finding a tribe.
It's where I belonged and I could, you know, be as outrageous as I wanted or needed to
be, really, in order to create things.
And that's what I realised was the burning passion within me was the desire to create.
And artists use canvas or clay and musicians use instruments.
And my instrument was myself, really, and to create characters, to either make people
laugh or make people think about things or recreate certain events.
It was a pathway that had been shown to me and I felt at home.
And I remember in the studio, the first place that I went to, first acting class, there
was a big sign on the side of the wall.
And it said, if you're not prepared to make a fool of yourself, you don't belong here.
And I was prepared to make a fool of myself.
And, you know, I still am.
Hearing you quote that, that gives me goosebumps because I think that's the stuff of living.
I think all of us need to be willing to sort of go out on that ledge and to be prepared
to risk being thought of as silly.
It might necessarily mean you're an actor, but in any field of excellence, you need to
put yourself in that kind of position, don't you?
You know, as far as we know, we've only got the one life.
You know, maybe we have more, but why not make the most of it?
Yeah, it could all end tomorrow.
Dive in, dive in.
You strike me as someone who makes it count from being that little disruptive boy in class,
but who was extraordinary with bringing people along with him to now being a Hollywood star
in big blockbusters.
Could you have ever imagined that would be your path in life?
Where I've ended up is a complete surprise.
The height of my ambition was to perform and be a part of a particular theatre company.
And that theatre company at the time was Nimrod Theatre in Sydney, which is now Belvoir Street
And when I was growing up, after I went off to acting classes, I was the last of seven
kids. My parents didn't really have much money at all.
But the little money they did have, my birthday and Christmas presents were tickets to the
theatre. And they'd never been to the theatre ever.
But because they could recognise that this was something that might be of interest to
their son, they opened the door for me.
And so from the age of 12, 13, 14, I was seeing these amazing productions on stage, which
was a world that I couldn't have even imagined in my wildest imaginations.
And I just thought, yeah, that I would love to one day do that.
And as I said, that was the height of my ambition.
I never really I'd only probably see maybe one or two films a year at the cinema.
As I said, we didn't really have much money.
So the only films I'd see was maybe a Disney film once a year, maybe Herbie.
Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo.
What about Herbie Goes Bananas?
I liked Herbie Goes Bananas.
Yeah, Herbie Goes Bananas.
I've got to say, I traced them down a little while ago.
I thought my kids need to see Herbie and they don't hold up.
Keep it as a memory, Jess.
Yeah, the Herbie movies don't hold up, but they were good when we were younger.
So, yeah, you know, as I said, the height of my ambition was to perform on stage at
that particular theatre.
And after I left drama school, I was very lucky.
I did become part of the company of actors at what is now Bellevue Street Theatre.
And it was an amazing company of actors, but there was 12 of us, I think.
Cate Blanchett and Geoffrey Rush, Richard Roxburgh, Max Cullen, Gillian Jones.
We spent about two years creating and, you know, being involved in amazing productions
under the directorship of Neil Armfield.
I mean, what a roll call.
Yeah, it was pretty special times.
We poured everything into it, into those productions to make them as good as we
creatively could be at the time.
And how do you pour yourself into something?
Because I was intrigued to read from when you're a little boy to get into character,
you'd have a wooden sword and you'd be whacking it against a wall to get into the
part of a character in a Shakespeare play.
And then when you were slightly older, you'd whack your elbows and knees into a wall to
get scabs and so you could bleed on stage.
I mean, that's very drastic for a little person to do that as sort of a young man.
And what did you do?
In my earlier years as an actor, my process was different to how I work now.
It was pretty full on.
In a way, it was a, I suppose, a type of psychodrama.
I would literally do whatever I could to psych myself into a state that I would believe I
was that character.
So I'd go to the whatever extent was needed.
So I could believe that I was that character at that time.
And then if it was on stage, for example, I'd put myself into that state of mind.
So when I walked on stage, I was in exactly the right moment to exist and be as real as
possible as that particular person.
Yeah, it was pretty full on.
It's not something I'd advocate now.
It can have its downsides as well.
Like there was a character that I played in.
It was a play called The Boys, which, you know, about five years later, I made a film
of The Boys, and he was a pretty nasty character.
And I think just staying in that state of mind for that period of time, I don't think
is, you know, the healthiest thing to do.
I remember that role of Brett that you played so clearly.
I saw the film The Boys, which is loosely based on that terrible murder and rape of
Anita Cobby and that sense of what might have happened leading up to it.
I was so terrified seeing you play that out on the screen.
And then I later read that Toni Collette, who was actually playing with you in that
movie, she was actually quite frightened of you.
Yeah, there was one particular moment on set where she looked me in the eyes and she said,
I can't look in his eyes.
And she literally just ran off set.
She said, I can't look at him.
Yeah, we're all gods.
We're all gods in our own world.
So how about playing out some of those sexy dreams you told me you had?
And because in that film, too, there was this growing sense of menace, which you captured
so well in that character, this sense of, oh, my God, something really terrible is going
The fascinating thing about that particular film is a lot of people describe as one of
the most violent films they've ever seen, but there's virtually no violence in the
film. It's all implied.
It's all psychological.
And as I said, that came from a play that I did.
And the extent of going back to the days of psyching ourselves into the piece, myself
and David Field, who was in the play, we used to in this, you'd never be able to do it
now. But, you know, work health and safety issues that never allow you to do it.
But we used to drink beer throughout the whole performance on stage in front of people
who are only centimeters apart from you.
And we took a slab of beer on stage in character and people would watch us consuming beer
on stage and the beer was going all over them through the performance or whatever.
And we had some in there that, you know, we had special cans that weren't beer, that
were only half beer and whatever. But a lot of it was.
And we'd consume God knows how much each performance.
And so it was a real, you know, the people who saw that show, they were immersed in
that situation. And we only ever had two walkouts and one of them was a run out and
both of them were men, which is fascinating.
Isn't it? So what then, I suppose, does that tell you about what it is you do for a
Yes, you know, it's a strange job that Dad does.
Yeah, it's an interesting question, Jess.
It's, you know, what do you do for a living?
Because it goes under the title of it as an actor.
But it does, you know, you drill down into that.
What is it? And I suppose at its core, what I hope I do, first of all, is entertain.
I think that's important to interest people.
Hopefully, parts of that would be to make people laugh, to make people feel better,
sometimes to make people think.
That's really important, I think, to make people reflect.
Yeah, maybe even to make people think differently.
You know, when I was younger, I suppose I saw the role of an actor as being far more
didactic than I do now, because I think essentially you have to entertain people.
There has to be a compelling reason why people want to actually look at what you're
doing and experience what you're doing.
Because what you are, you're a storyteller.
You're telling people stories.
And I'm such a believer in stories connecting us.
It's how we feel understood in the world.
It's how we make our way in the world.
Or sometimes it might be how we can experience something totally different.
And I think that's what you do.
So we are. And I think it's, you know, people ask, why do we need Australian drama?
Well, I think it's vital for us to have Australian drama, because, as you say, it
tells our stories. Who are we without our stories?
It tells us who we are.
It tells us about our history.
If you take away our stories, who are we really?
We're just these homogenous individuals who don't have a unique personality and a
difference from anybody else.
They mark us and we're marked by our stories.
And we should be proud of our stories.
Indigenous cultures are fantastic with that because they keep their stories and pass
them down through the generations.
And that defines who they are.
And so it should be with, you know, cultures all around the world in contemporary days.
Storytelling is so important.
At the moment, I'm, you know, I'm engaged with the Sydney Film Festival.
I'm very fortunate to be a judge on the official jury.
And so I have an opportunity now to experience stories from all around the world and to
get perspectives from different people, from different cultures and how they view the
world at this point in time and to see what similarities there are between us and what
are the things that actually define the differences between us.
That is fascinating.
It's so very powerful.
What I'd like to get back to and touch on again is that you spoke about how when you
were younger, you would totally immerse yourself and then you realised that's really not
something sustainable for a long life.
How now do you do it?
How have you adapted your style of work?
I suppose it's a compression of what I used to do in a way.
I try my best to get myself into a state where I actually believe I am that person.
It's a mode now where it's compressed so I can do it much quicker and I get out of it.
I get out of it as soon as I finish filming and as soon as I walk off the stage, I
have to just I let it go.
I take the costume off and I let it go and I leave it there.
I don't dwell in the character's mindset whatsoever.
I immediately put myself into the present moment again.
It's necessary for mental health.
So, you know, to answer your question succinctly, I think the big difference is it's
a much shorter, more precise mode of preparation when I just before I perform.
I do probably the same amount of research or preparation for characters.
But in terms of using a psychology to suck myself into that mind state, I don't go to any
lengthy process anymore.
Because did you find at times, I mean, you mentioned their mental health and I'm a
passionate advocate for people talking about sorts of struggles and things that they go
through in their lives, that there were times for you when you thought, I'm really in
Certainly there have been through my life.
Work associated stuff, I think, look, that particular character that we mentioned, it
did have detrimental effects on me at the time because I took that role so seriously.
And especially when we were doing the play that I think, you know, little bits of that
character were with me during my day to day life, which is probably not ideal.
So, you know, in terms of an effect of my work on me personally, that's one particular
occasion. And then independently to that, yeah, you know, like a lot of people, there is,
you know, ups and downs in life and whatever.
And yeah, I'm certainly one who have gone the roller coaster as well and had to deal with
the downs as well as the ups.
And I think to me, it's the roller coaster that really makes life so magnificent, because
if we don't go down, we don't actually appreciate how extraordinary it can be when you
do feel good, because it is fleeting, but you want to make that matter and count.
I agree completely with your observation there, Jess, and I think it's probably something as
well that you can only look back on from a distance like us now and realise that it's, you
know, life is a roller coaster and it really is very, very important to cherish those moments
when, you know, you are at the top of that little ride, because you're not going to be up there
forever. So really enjoy it and make the most of it and understand that, yeah, at the top of the
roller coaster, there is that thing you are going to go down, but just will enjoy the bit.
But when you're down there, realise that, you know, don't dwell on it, because, you know,
there's also another twist and turns and you could go up again.
So hang in there for the ride.
And that it will pass. I love that sort of sense that this too shall pass.
That's true. It's interesting you say that.
I used to suffer from claustrophobia very, very badly when I was a kid.
I couldn't go into any elevators, any building.
I'd have to either take the stairs or escalators and sometimes in very tall buildings.
You know, I remember Australia Square and I would take the stairs anyway, not long after I
finished. It was during the boys, actually, I met a forensic psychiatrist and I had a
conversation about my claustrophobia and he said, look, I'll tell you something.
And then he drew this thing, just got a bit of paper and he drew it.
And what it was, was like this line that went up, up, up, up, up and then went down.
And he said, what you've got to realise is that the body and the mind is a remarkable
thing. It will never, ever, ever allow you to stay in a state of panic indefinitely.
It's physiologically impossible.
So he said, as long as you're aware of that, that the fact that you will panic, panic,
panic, panic, but it will not go on forever.
It won't go on for very long at all.
Your body is really smart and it will do something.
If you start panicking really, really bad, it will actually cause you to faint and it
will actually put you in a prone position where blood runs to your head and whatever.
And it will be looking after you.
As long as you realise that there is an end to that panic, you'll be right.
And just to be in possession of that knowledge has helped me so often.
I've been caught in the subway in a tunnel in New York whereby there was an incident
and we were stuck on the train and then for ages in the dark.
And then we had to find our way along the tracks and then into the station ahead.
Now, if I was much younger and whatever, I would have entered a state of, you know,
freaking out and gone completely ballistic.
Having that knowledge helped me so much in that situation.
You knew that you'd be safe, that your body would in fact.
Ultimately, ultimately, the panic wasn't going to.
It will end it with the panic.
What I'd love to talk about now is the people that you've worked with over the years.
You've worked with some extraordinary Aussie actresses, Tony Collette.
You mentioned Cate Blanchett as well, Nicole Kidman.
What is it like working with actresses like that and what have you learnt from them?
It's a complete treat. When you work with people like the three that you mentioned and
then, you know, other Australian actresses, Jacqueline McKenzie, Francis O'Connor, I love.
And then, you know, overseas was Elizabeth Moss, et cetera.
Each of them are so stunningly gifted at what they do.
It just makes it a joy because what ultimately what it is, what acting is, it's not a solo sport.
It's a team sport. And when you have like really great team members working on something,
that's when it's really, really exciting.
It's exciting being on the team, but it's also exciting then for people to be watching it.
So, yeah, it makes such a difference to work with people of that caliber,
because it just at its essence, it actually simplifies the process.
But it also makes it so much more potentially surprising, exciting and electric.
Because the best advice I ever heard regarding acting was this.
All you have to do is two things and they seem very, very simple things is listen,
listen real, think, think real.
If you do those two things, everything else falls into place.
And it seems such a simple thing.
But I can tell you that 90 per cent of actors don't actually do either of those things.
They've already pre-prepared their performance before they go on stage or on set.
You know, they've decided how they're going to perform or, you know, say their lines or whatever.
It's the really good ones, like the ones that you've mentioned,
who have prepared their character, but haven't prepared their performance.
So they go on set and literally they're engaging in a conversation with you for the very first time.
And that gives you the occasion to play, to play with each other.
And that's, yeah, that's when it works.
And that's why, you know, plays are called play because, you know, that's what you do.
You play with each other and the ones that don't come with a, you know,
pre-prepared performance, they're the best ones and they're the ones that you've listed.
It sounds like magic.
I've heard people say that when you are in that zone, so to speak,
it's almost as if you're not there, that it just unfolds and happens.
Is there a moment that you can recall in your career where it hasn't been a performance,
but it's just been, oh, my goodness, I'm almost out of body.
And this is happening as it should be happening.
On stage, there's only ever one performance of a play that I did.
And it was Cyrano de Bergerac quite a number of years ago.
And it was one particular performance whereby everything clicked.
And I could say that was actually the one time in my life on stage
where I thought, you know, I don't think it gets better than that.
It was a complete journey, an incredible ride
with this particular character and everybody on stage at the same time.
But, you know, it just the whole thing just clicked.
Doesn't happen very often in your life.
But the response then from the audience as well, because it's a two way thing.
It was just instant at the end.
It was like people stood up and, yeah, it was wild.
So that on stage, that's my one occasion on stage.
And then on film, it has happened a few times.
And with, you know, at least a couple of those people you mentioned,
I can say with Nicole, it's happened on Lion,
a film about Sir Rue Brieley's incredible life and working with the boys.
Yeah, that's for you.
Good on the plane.
To Mummy and Dad.
And we're so happy to meet you.
Yeah, amazing moments there.
Elizabeth Moss on top of the lake.
There was one particular scene in that where it was literally
just sitting on the floor on the carpet and my character
surprisingly proposing to her.
And that was yet a one take scene with Jane Campion directing.
And, yeah, it was just it was effortless.
It was just natural and organic.
Will you marry me?
This is weird, Al.
I'm old enough to recognise my angel when I meet her.
Oh, and it's wonder.
I mean, to me, that is real creation.
Also, I really want to ask you about Johnny Depp.
I know you've worked with him.
I've worked with him a couple of times. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, there's so much focus around him at the moment.
What do you make of Johnny Depp?
He's a fascinating man.
Look, I think the thing about Johnny is he has been in the public spotlight
You know, Johnny has lived in an alternative world, really, for a long time.
To be that ridiculously famous for that long, I think, is, you know,
I wouldn't like to be in that situation.
Having said that, he's truly creative.
He's you know, that's undeniable.
He's a lot of fun to be with, a lot of fun.
He's a crazy, wild, unique individual.
Yeah, he's one out of the box, really.
I think, yes, I mean, you've been to be able, I suppose,
to meet him and work with him is quite an experience.
I've worked with some interesting people. Johnny's one of them.
If I kill the coward, the witch hangs.
Two for the price of one.
Please don't let go of me.
Might be difficult once he kills me.
Gentlemen, these two prisoners will lead us to the Trident.
Because, I mean, I listen to you talk about your world and your life,
and it seems so exotic and creative and wonderful.
But of course, you've got your beautiful partner
who you've been with for 28 years.
You've got two gorgeous daughters.
I mean, what is everyday life like for you?
My everyday life is my, that is my life, really.
Yeah, everything else is, yeah, well, I'm so happy when I work.
But my life is my life.
That's the main thing.
But I am so, so happy when I when I work,
when I create, because that's the fire in my belly.
All the other stuff that comes with it is it's so peripheral to me.
I really do fly under the radar, which I love.
I would not like to be in Johnny Depp's position
and to have that level of fame, because it does make it very difficult
to live a normal life.
And I also think it makes it harder in a very strange way
to actually be an actor, because what is acting?
Essentially, it's at its best.
It's when it's an it's observation of people
and to be able to create and recreate other people's lives.
And if you're not in a situation where you can actually live
in the real world and observe what's around you, it's just much harder.
Because what do your daughters make of what you do?
Because I've got, you know, teenage girls as well.
And I mean, they look at me and they go, oh, you're so embarrassing.
Do your kids do that, too?
Well, that's what kids do, I think. Yeah.
Look, my kids have hardly seen anything that I've done, hardly anything.
The kids, they're interested in their lives.
And fair enough, really.
And what would you say? I'll give you an example.
One of my daughters came to visit me when we were on the pirate set.
And, you know, I can't remember how old she was then and whatever.
And we were shooting a really big scene this day on the Gold Coast.
It was massive with special effects and explosions
and huge amount of extras in costumes, hundreds and hundreds.
It was a massive set up with, I don't know, maybe 10 cameras around the place.
And I was excited to show her, you know, the set for this day.
And she come out there and then, you know, I've got Johnny to come over
and spend in the middle of all this, setting up whatever.
And he was in his Captain Jack stuff and went down and, you know, started it.
And Johnny was great and talking to her.
And after Johnny had been speaking to her for a few minutes,
she just sort of tugged on my costume and said,
Dad, can we go back to the trailer now?
And all she was interested in, and so was my other daughter, actually,
only interested in what sort of trailer and where you had the little caravan thing
that might have a toilet and a bed in there.
That was the interest. It wasn't the work itself at all.
At all. And this strange man with all the weird makeup and whatever.
So, you're right, I would have met him.
Can we go to the trailer now?
That story, because you're so right, that is kids.
The things that we assume or expect might excite them or interest them,
because we're like, wow, they're like, oh, no, not at all.
Yeah, if I do a job, they go, oh, what's the trailer?
Is there somewhere we can lie down?
So, yeah, there's a chair I can see.
Reminds me, though, I read an interview that you'd done
where you were talking about your parents and how you'd tell them
who you were working with, what you were doing,
but then what your mum then would say to you.
Yeah, regardless of who you were working with, whether they were sir or lord
or, you know, the most famous person in the world at the time.
Oh, well, that's good, love.
That sounds interesting.
But do they feed you?
The only thing she was interested in was to make sure that somebody was feeding me.
Once a mother, always a mother.
Oh, yeah, it's such a beautiful story.
But also at the same time, to think of her and your dad
taking you to the Nimrod, getting tickets in this world that they knew nothing about.
But then for you to have this extraordinary life journey.
David Wenham, it has been extraordinary to talk to you.
I could talk to you for a lifetime, your stories, your experiences
and the way that you move in the world, I think is something to behold.
So thank you for sharing with me in the way that you have.
I've loved it. Oh, absolute pleasure, Jess.
Absolute pleasure. Great talking with you.
I know I say this about all of my guests,
but I could just talk and talk and talk to David Wenham.
He has the most incredible stories
listening to him describe life on a movie set and also what it takes
to be an actor of his caliber, that idea of bringing a performance
as opposed to totally knowing what you're going to do
when you walk either on stage or onto a movie set.
Did you know as well that to celebrate 90 years of the ABC,
David is hosting a new series for them called The ABC Of.
And he sits down with famous Australians and revisits their pasts
through moments drawn from the ABC archives.
You can watch it from the 28th of June on both ABC and ABC Eye View.
Now, of course, you know, if you want more big conversations
like I've just had with David, search the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
And if you enjoyed this episode with David,
you might like my chat with Indira Naidoo.
I think we're here to learn.
And some of those lessons are difficult lessons,
but they're all part of that bigger picture.
And ultimately, we want to find what our purpose is.
You know, why are we here?
Or my cheeky friend, Veras Durrani.
And also, you know, being a little bit culturally different,
you have to be more on your feet and have your wits about you in case
there's people around you is trying to take advantage of that, you know,
and really be self-effacing.
And, you know, some of the some of the things that I would do is
be the clown to get out of things, you know, just in case they were
to strike me down or to minimise me or marginalise me.
You know, I'd be the clown and maybe they would like me more then.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe,
executive producer Nick McClure, audio producer Nicky Sitch,
supervising producer Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious
to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.