It was still, yeah, wrapped up with a bit of shame and an embarrassment somehow that
I had been, you know, ruined that way and affected in such a deep way and I didn't want
I didn't want to feel like I was broken, but a part of me felt like I was permanently broken
from that experience.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show.
A podcast that skips the small talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
I don't know about you, but I really crave connected conversations, so I'm going to dig
deep to give you a new window into the souls of the people we're curious to get to know
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities
that make us human.
If you're a woman of a certain age, you would have grown up with Alison Bray Daddow.
She was one of our first supermodels, starring on the cover of Cosmo, Dolly and Cleo magazines
in the 80s and 90s.
Oh, I dreamt of having her glossy locks and clear skin.
I wanted to talk to Ali about what those modelling years were really like.
And since we are the same age, I also wanted to chat with her about how we can navigate
menopause and finding our voice.
It's an experience she shares in her fabulous book, Queen Menopause.
And just to let you know, we do cover some heavy topics in our conversation, including
sexual assault, something which Ali opens up about in this conversation.
Ali, to be sitting across from your beautiful face and your lovely energy, you have this
way about you, I think, that you just exude this beautiful sort of warmth.
Well, I always feel the same way about you.
I've always felt that about you, like from your TV to podcast, and there's something
about your aura, energy that always comes across as my favourite word is kind.
So I've always been drawn to you as well.
Oh, well, right back at you.
And so how special that we're both here together discussing things that are very close to our
hearts and matter to us.
I grew up, like so many other women of my age, wanting to be you because you were there.
You were our first supermodel.
Well, certainly the supermodel for the younger age group, because we had Elle McPherson and
I was looking at her going, holy moly, how do you ever, you know, get a body like that?
You're born with a body like that, really, aren't you?
Excuse me, you as the Dolly cover girl, you were looking at Elle McPherson.
And I was looking at the Christy Turlington's and the Cindy Crawford's and wishing I could
Yeah, never looked in the mirror and went, yes, I'm the supermodel of Australia.
What is that about, though?
Why do we do that?
Why are we never enough, especially our younger selves?
I know you've got two daughters, I've got two daughters.
And I just look at them when they judge themselves and I just think, oh, girls, if only, you
know, you get to my age and you go, why was I not out celebrating my gorgeous physique
and my unlined face more than I should have been?
I was judging myself way back then.
It's so silly, you know, but it's so inbred.
I just think it's so inbred in our culture, particularly for girls.
And, you know, what sort of teenage girls sort of doesn't have a hang up in some place
or another? It's pretty rare that you find a teenager that's 100 percent confident in
Because they're the hardest times of your life, I think, those teenage years.
But are you telling me, though, that there wasn't a moment when you'd see yourself on
the cover of Dolly and think, oh, I look pretty good or this is good.
I feel good about this.
I definitely had that for sure.
Yeah, there was many a cover and fashion spread that I absolutely loved.
Loved then, loved now.
Proud of so much of the work that I did there.
Yeah. And look and was really happy with the way I looked, for sure.
It was still didn't sort of lift me to high confidence in a lot of ways about myself,
I think, because I had so much insecurity more about who I was rather than what I looked
So I think that was sort of underground.
A lot of the insecurities that I had.
But I could certainly certainly look at pictures and covers and go, yeah, nailed that one.
All the hair and makeup photographer did.
And the hair. Let's talk about the hair.
I remember looking at those pictures of you and thinking, oh, the glossy long hair.
And I had terrible acne.
And I remember reading in Dolly a tip about covering your acne was to turn them into
The only problem was I had about 30 beauty spots all over my face and it didn't work.
And there was you with your flawless skin.
Well, yeah, look, my skin was pretty good.
I was pretty lucky.
My mum had glorious English skin.
And so I was lucky to get her skin.
I certainly had, you know, the pimples come up, you know, they had to cover that with
makeup and a little airbrushing back in those days to get rid of them.
There's one famous photo of me in Harper's Bazaar and I'm holding, I think my hand up
to my chin or my something up to my chin.
And I had the most enormous boil of a pimple.
And they were like, it's okay, we can hide it.
And it's like there I was just covering that, just, you know.
So even supermodels get pimples, have acne.
For sure. At least I know I did.
And I'm sure other girls do.
Yeah, they just hide it well.
And, you know, when we think about modeling, there's this idea that it's glamorous.
You know, it looks so fabulous and you go to amazing places.
But it's not always so glamorous.
I mean, there was some photo shoots that you did that were awful where photographers
and stylists and hairdressers were pretty hideous to you.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I was grateful, you know, mostly in Australia.
And certainly once I got further into the industry, I was a lot more at ease.
And I always knew somebody on set, which was really nice.
Pretty much across the board, hair and makeup people were pretty much my safety zone.
They were really lovely.
I did have a few, you know, sort of the early days where I just got the most horrendous
haircuts and told to still, you know, smile and wave, you know, as I was there with tears
brewing in my eyes with these awful haircuts.
And how old were you?
I started when I was 16.
So those few months, you know, yeah, like, you know, the sexual comments that I didn't
get at the time was, you know, what would now be called not abuse, but certainly harassment,
sexual harassment.
So those sorts of things that I didn't understand, I was super naive that that was not OK.
And I certainly never said, you can't ask me those questions.
You can't say those comments to me.
You know, I did a shoot the other day and I was kicking myself, actually, because there
was three women, all of us, at least over 45.
And the photographer was younger than all of us.
And he kept on saying to the three of us, OK, girls, can you just move over there?
And girls smile a bit more.
And he was, look, he was saying it in a nice way, but just that part of me was like, I'm
not a girl, I'm not a girl, none of us are girls, we're older than you.
You know, and it was like, oh, like, don't say something.
And I ended up not saying anything.
We kind of the three of us were laughing between ourselves.
And, you know, I'd sort of at the end said, well, you know, it's nice working with you.
I am, you know, I am older than you.
He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, just all those things that I things I wish I had have said or taken more
care of myself back then, I just didn't know how.
Well, that's it. And you pick your battles.
But you had your dad, though, you wrote about this particular incident in your extraordinary
book, Quay Menopause, where your dad actually did something on your behalf.
Tell us about that.
He did. Well, it was one of my first shoots for Dolly magazine.
And again, as I said, very naive.
I came from the northern suburbs and hadn't really traveled much or done much.
And my father is or was a magistrate.
And we were very much told to behave and follow the law and what have you.
So this particular shoot, there was cocaine in abundance.
Hair and makeup were coked out.
Photographer was coked out.
The two male models were coked out.
And the hairstylist proceeded to burn the tops of my ears, my scalp with the curling
tongs because she was high on coke.
And every time I would flinch and move away from sort of my hair being burnt, she would
say, stop moving, stop moving.
So I get up in front of the camera and I'm again, I don't know which way is up because
my head is on fire.
I've got, you know, pain.
I've been, you know, internally crying.
And the photographer just said, you know, this isn't for me.
This is for you. Now smile.
And I sort of pulled my crap together and was able to get through the job.
I was offered coke. I was 16, as I said, and just felt like so horrible, horrible at the
end of that shoot. And I got back in the car because dad came to pick me up and told him
what had happened. And he just sort of just nodded his head, didn't didn't say much because
yeah, that's awful. Right.
Okay. And he said, just tell me the names and told him the names.
And then I let it go.
The next day, a huge bunch of flowers arrives at my doorstep from the magazine just saying,
we are so sorry. That was completely unacceptable.
We offer our deepest, sincerest apologies.
Great. And then that was it.
Now, I never worked with that photographer again, because come to find out it was literally
like 15, 20 years later, I bumped into that male model and he said, do you remember that
shoot? And I said, of course I remember that shoot.
And he said, you know, your father threatened the photographer with legal action and said,
if you ever go near my daughter again, I will run you out of town.
And I was like, what?
And I just said, my dad's a superhero.
That is the coolest thing.
And he and I just thought it was great that in a lot of ways he didn't tell me, you know,
but maybe maybe it would have been nice to know at the time as well.
But yeah, it was just amazing.
And yeah, it didn't didn't harm my career any, which was good.
And yeah, he made it very clear.
And I never I've never seen that photographer ever again.
Oh, I think that is such a cracker of a story.
And I was lucky enough to briefly meet your dad at a book event that you did.
And he is a superhero.
That's right. I spoke to him about it just the other day and he goes, oh, yes, I remember
that. I remember that.
So, yeah, amazing, amazing man.
So your career was taking off.
You're on the covers everywhere and you decide to head overseas.
And as a lot of models do, they head to Japan and it's a good place to get lovely pictures,
And so you headed there.
Things were going well.
But things took quite an unpleasant, awful turn when you went to a party with a friend.
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a very odd scene over there, actually.
It's sort of it's kind of like the wild, wild west of modelling in a way, because there's
no parental, there's no adults keeping track of anything is going on over there.
And again, I was I think I maybe had just turned 17.
Again, I was very, very young and very lonely over there.
First time out of home and was invited to this party by a girl in my in my model block.
And when you say model block, that's sort of like an apartment, isn't it?
Agencies will put all of the models who've come from around the world.
Exactly. It's like a boarding house for models.
So she was an English girl, a lovely English girl.
And we'd sort of been continuously booked together for some reason.
I don't know, must have been our look was the right look for them.
So I'd done three or four jobs with her.
She was in my same block.
So I said, do you want to come to this party?
And I was like, oh, sure.
So it was at some I don't even know whose house it was or apartment.
And we totalled off over there and I'm sitting on the couch talking to her
when completely out of the blue, these two other male models come rushing towards us,
physically pick me up, shove me into the cupboard,
which happened to kind of actually be in the middle of the party
and proceeded to grope, you know, my breasts, my vagina.
They were sticking their tongue down my throat.
They were holding me, you know, both of them were doing it.
And I had a little cropped, I had a black crop top on at the time,
long sleeve black crop top and a pair of jeans.
And, you know, it sounds so cliche because you hear it all the time,
but I actually had the words said to me, you deserved it.
Look at what you're wearing.
And I just I remember that just going, what?
Like I've got a black long sleeve T-shirt on and a pair of jeans.
So while I was screaming and the music's going outside of the cupboard
and I'm screaming, I'm screaming and moving around, this guy comes and he goes,
get off her, get off her.
So he pulls the two guys off and I come out and I'm completely bewildered,
completely in shock.
I don't know anyone else in the room.
And he was like, do you want to get out of here?
And I said, yeah, yeah, I do.
I just want to go home.
So it was quite a long way home.
We had to take a train and then we had to walk.
And so he was chatting to me and he was really lovely.
So, yeah, we get back to my apartment and I think he's going to deliver me safely
into my apartment.
And he's like, oh, I'll just come in for a bit.
That was my mistake.
So he came in and then proceeded to rape me.
And as I've said in the book, he was actually a boxer, a professional boxer as well.
So for a long time, I didn't actually think it was rape because I sort of just let it happen.
I just didn't fight back because I'd already been in shock from what had happened
and he kind of saved me.
So it was this massively confusing experience of he saved me from a horrible situation
and now he's delivered me home.
And I was like, no, I don't want to.
I don't want to. I don't want to.
And then I just shut up.
I didn't say anything.
So then I just packed it away, packed that away, put it under the bed, padlocked it.
Just didn't revisit that for many, many, many years.
Ali, listening to you say that, it breaks my heart.
It breaks my heart for you as a young woman to have that sort of experience
and for you to question yourself.
What did I do wrong?
Was I wearing the wrong thing?
Should I have stopped this?
I should have said something.
And that enrages me too, that as women, we should not be having that soundtrack in our heads.
And probably by what you did, you protected yourself from this physically strong man.
And who knows then what might have happened next.
And I think that was the only saving grace that once I got into therapy years later,
when my therapist said, you actually did the right thing.
And I just thought, how did I do the right thing?
She said, because had you fought back physically, who knows?
Yeah, what else does you say?
What else could have happened?
And it's just far too common, far too common with women that we blame ourselves,
that we don't talk about it, that we don't speak up.
Because what's the point?
Where would I have gone?
How do I prosecute this man?
I don't even remember his name.
How do you even put that into a legal sense?
Were you going to get justice sort of thing?
And not only that man, those two other men who grabbed you.
And this man then to be so wicked and pretend to be the knight in shining armour
and rescue you and then do that.
You say you packed it away under the bed.
So how then did you continue through your young life by packing that away?
Looking back on it, I saw how it did deeply affect me,
because as much as I attempted to compartmentalise it,
things like, you know, things like I never wanted to come across as sexy.
I changed the way I dressed.
I became very much don't look men in the eyes, very much that way.
I still struggle with that, actually.
So if I meet someone and I'm introduced, it's OK.
But my eyes are down and I don't look because I don't want to invite something.
You know, that was what my fear was.
Don't, you know, don't put yourself out there.
Don't come across as anything that's sexual.
Don't look at men in the eyes because you're going to get attacked.
That was sort of what I had running.
So it affected me for years that way, you know, a deep distrust of men as well.
So and it's, you know, it's a funny experience then to be so in front and centre
in the media, you know, as a model when internally I'm attempting to kind of put my
head down and not get noticed.
So it was this real dichotomy for me.
And it contributed to a lot of that feeling of insecurity as well that I that I had
already was struggling with and struggled even more with after that.
And then, of course, you met your beautiful husband, Cameron Datto,
who was like the heartthrob as well for women of our generation.
It was like, oh, swoon.
So for all intents and purposes, the two of you, as an outsider looking in,
had this beautiful kind of fairy tale romance and life.
I know. And it's it's something I kind of didn't.
I was sort of in a little bubble with that.
I didn't realise that it was such a big deal to so many people.
And again, it's still sort of I get messages from people today going,
it was the biggest deal when you guys started going out because he was on my wall.
You were on the front of my textbook.
And then when the two of you got together, what?
So, yeah, yeah, it was all such a ridiculous whirlwind.
I mean, you know, it's a fairly well-known story,
but met two and a half months later, engaged a year after that marriage.
Eight months after that, moved to America.
You know, it was just yeah, we were on a treadmill that was on high.
That's sort of a love bomb.
But in terms of what had happened to you, though, did you tell Cameron?
No, no, I did not tell Cam.
Gosh, how many years later?
Probably I was about 28 when I finally revealed it in therapy.
And we'd been married or we I'd met him when I was 20.
So eight years later.
And yeah, so I talked about it in therapy.
And then the two of us had therapy together.
So my therapist was like that third person to sort of support me as I told him
about the full experience.
And I can't begin to imagine how hard a conversation like that must have been.
I know I cried, but he certainly cried and just couldn't
it could not believe I'd held it for that long.
I mean, my parents didn't know I took a long time to tell my parents.
They were sort of the next cab off the ranks, so to speak.
So and I don't think it was immediate that I told them either.
I told them a couple of years after that.
So it slowly eked out that that information.
But yeah, it was it was interesting telling Cam because there was still
it was still trying to shake the shame from it was still really difficult.
It was still wrapped up with a bit of shame
and an embarrassment somehow that I had been, you know,
ruined that way and affected in such a deep way.
And I didn't want to be that way.
I didn't want to feel like I was broken.
But a part of me felt like I was permanently broken from that experience.
And shame is so damaging.
So damaging. It's the worst.
It's it's just the worst.
And I think that, again, unfortunately, it's it's another common
feeling that women have once they've been abused in any way, shape or form,
you know, whether it's physical or mentally.
There's this shame that we wrap ourselves up in, which stops us from growing
and it stops us from really getting angry sometimes at the person
we're meant to be angry at.
Exactly. It stops us from owning our anger and power and our voice
to actually say, this is not on.
Yeah. This is not right.
I'm not to blame for what happened to me.
And it's the shame that keeps people quiet.
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.
And one of my favourite people is Brene Brown.
You know, I love her.
Imagine if we could get her in this room, too.
Could we do that?
Could we be in the arena with her?
You know, there's that great quote of hers.
Let's all be in the arena with her.
And I know our listeners are in the arena, too.
We're all there together.
That helped me so much writing that book, you know, when I was reading that quote,
because I'm like, you know, people are not going to like my book.
People are going to say nasty things and whatever.
But are they in the arena?
Have they written their own book?
Can they judge me for what I'm about to write?
So I've remembered her a lot, but her research on shame is so powerful
And I remember that she said if shame was in a Petri dish
and you drop one bit of empathy or compassion into shame, it disappears.
I was like, God, that's good to remember if we can give ourselves just that one
bit of empathy or understanding or compassion.
Yeah, the shame goes.
And that's where I was able to build the compassion for myself and let go of the shame.
That is so beautiful.
It makes me feel quite teary, you describing it in that way,
because it is about being compassionate with ourselves.
Yeah, 100 percent.
So are you now compassionate with yourself?
I am so much more compassionate with myself.
And it's taken me, I think it's taken me, I'm 52 like you.
It took me about to age 50 to get there.
It took me a long time.
And we're not there yet.
We're still not there.
There's still moments where I'll say something mean to myself and I go,
well, that wasn't very nice.
But the lessening of the judgment and being embarrassed about this or shameful
about that is so much less.
And I'm so grateful, so grateful to feel more compassion to myself and particularly
compassion, you know, for my younger years and the things that I just didn't know.
I just didn't know.
And you do the best you can.
You tried the very best what you're doing with the information that you have.
And that's what you do.
But, you know, we all make mistakes and that's OK.
We learn from them.
And even now, when I do something or think something or say something like,
OK, well, what are you going to do next time that was going to make you feel better?
That didn't work.
What's your next step that's going to help you feel more connected or grounded
or a better choice than what you just made?
And I hope, too, Ali, that you feel, I mean, by sharing in such an open way with us
what happened to you and obviously then with Cam, with your family,
with your readers, that it is the right thing to do.
I hope that there's a lightning of your load.
Yeah, it really it has been.
And I was nervous to put it in the book.
I had to share it with my children first because I didn't want them hearing about it
And that was a big conversation, particularly with my daughters.
And how did you navigate that?
It was really just to sit down and this is what I need to speak to you about something.
This that, you know, as you know, my book is about to come out.
There's something, a piece in there that I need to share with you that's really important
to me that dad knows and Cam was sitting with me.
And, you know, so your dad knows about it.
And I want you to know about it because it's nothing for you to hear from anyone else's
mouth, but my own.
So and I didn't give, you know, major details, of course.
I just told them exactly, you know, the facts of what had happened and their little faces
were just horrified, as you can imagine.
And my young Bodhi cried and they just were like they would they they did all the right
things. They just hugged me and said that was so sorry.
And, you know, how did you manage to keep going after that?
You know, all those beautiful questions.
And so we talked about it some more.
And my son wasn't there.
So I pulled him aside about a week later before his sisters got to him and said,
do you know what happened?
But he's such a funny little one and he's such a private kid and doesn't like to talk
about feelings at all.
So I sort of said, there's something in the book before you.
And that's all I got to. There's something in the book.
Mum, I'm never reading your book.
I'm not going to look at your book.
I'm never, ever, ever reading.
I know. I know, honey.
I don't expect you to read a book on menopause, especially your mum's.
But just in case the press picks up on something.
And so that's where I told him.
And he just was like, OK.
And he's studying psychology at the moment.
So I don't know where he's going to place that for him.
But, yeah, he just was like, OK, OK, got it.
And that was about it for him.
So, yeah, but bravo to you.
I think secrets can be so damaging and we're only as sick as our biggest secret.
And often people will carry around so much because of that shame or fear of being judged
or what other people might think.
But for you, I think to be so open, to shed your skin in that way is so empowering for other women.
Well, I always find that when other women or men do it,
I always find when I'm reading about someone at their lowest point,
and it feels so relatable as well, I know exactly how that feels.
I didn't know anyone else felt that that awful as that person did and how that relates to me.
And what happens next? Where do they go to next?
How do they get out of that pit of despair?
And so I find that I'm always fascinated by stories like that.
And, you know, there's always there's a million, trillion stories like that.
That everyone's got one, you know.
So I love the storytelling aspect of of growing from someone else's pain in a way,
you know, where you can hear their pain, relate to their pain,
see how far they've gotten through life by overcoming that and feeling empowered by that.
I think that's that's always the way that I've learnt best.
You know, if someone's going to teach me something, I want them to teach it to me
because they've experienced it, not because they've, you know,
read about it in a book and studied it, like, teach me what you know from the inside of you out.
But it's been yeah, look, I'm so glad it's in the book.
A lot of people have said, oh, God, you think you maybe shouldn't have put it in there?
And I've never thought that I've never never felt like it was a mistake.
I always felt really it was the right book to put it in and the right context to put it in.
You talk about people being at their lowest point.
You write about being at your lowest point.
And it's from a journal entry that you did.
And I think it's remarkable that you really kept journals since you were quite a young girl.
But this particular low point is when you're going through through menopause.
Describe that for people.
And it's funny describing it now because it feels so far away in a lot of ways.
And yet, if I read that journal entry, I know exactly the journal entry and I know exactly how I was feeling.
And it was just I'd not I'd sort of I'd look I'd had anxiety through my life, not nothing huge.
I had feelings of loneliness.
I'd certainly had a lot of loneliness feelings.
I'd never would have described myself as having depression before.
And I'd certainly read about depression.
And I understood it from again, from a textbook sort of place and from someone saying, oh, this is what it feels like.
But just hitting a place mentally where I just started having thoughts that was so, so dark,
that were so alarming to me and having those feelings of I really don't want to get out of bed.
There's no point in me getting out of bed.
And nothing was bringing me joy for the first time in my entire life.
Having my children not spark joy was so alarming to me because having wanted to be a mother my entire life and finding so much joy in motherhood.
And all of a sudden finding no, that's not there's nothing there.
There was just nothing that was sparking any joy, any interest.
I had no interest in anything.
It was just this deep, dark blanket that I kept thinking, I just need a good night's sleep.
And I'd wake up and I'm like, oh, my God, it's still there.
Have another night's sleep. I'm still there.
And then just go to bed and just sleep in the day and see if that helps.
It's still there.
I think the worst moment is having those thoughts of going.
I just think it would be better for my family if I wasn't alive.
I just think it would be better for everyone.
It's going to be easier.
I'm too much of a burden.
I think I need to just end this because it's too much for everyone else, which, of course, it wasn't, you know.
And it was that was the very bottom of the pit.
I had like another another voice.
And I know you know this, Jess, and I probably really well.
You know, there was just this other voice in my head that just was sort of looking
and hearing me in a way going, what are you actually saying?
What are you actually saying in this moment, Ali?
Are you actually saying you want to end your life?
Like, that's not you.
So I kept on kind of reaching for that voice in a way going, actually, it's not me.
It's really not me. That isn't what I want.
So I sort of let myself feel it.
I wrote about it in my journal.
And then started reaching for that voice and going, OK, no, that's that's not what I want.
I do want to feel happy again.
I do want to be a grandmother.
I do want to see my children get married.
Of course I do. Of course I do.
There I am. You know, so bit by bit, you know, can I have a hug?
Can I let's go for a walk together?
You know, what's a funny movie we can put on?
So just little steps that sort of got me out of that that pit.
But it was it was alarming, alarming, to say the least.
And were you able to reach out to people around you to get that help?
Or did you have to pull yourself out, listen to that voice?
Yeah, no, I didn't. I couldn't reach out.
Why? Why couldn't you?
I just didn't think I felt like it was too boring.
I felt like it was and I was saying the same thing over and over again.
I feel really sad. I feel really lost.
I feel really sad. I feel really lost.
I feel really alone.
I felt like a broken record and I could say that much,
but I couldn't sort of say to anyone, I feel like I'm not going to survive much longer.
I think had I said that to someone, it may have triggered that person
or someone to like reach in a bit more for me.
But yeah, I didn't think I could say that to anyone.
And I didn't I didn't want to say it because I sort of was so like,
oh, my God, I can't I can't say that.
Like, that's that sounds so extreme.
And it was. But yeah, it was it was most.
Yeah, it was pretty much pretty much me.
Yeah. Just pulling myself out.
Because I think when, you know, I look back on times
where my head was in that place and I was going through the post-natal depression.
But what I found was by reaching out,
it took the power away from what was whirling around in my head.
Yeah. And I think that's so it's too much for you to have to have done that yourself.
Yeah. And for people, it's really important for people listening to know,
reach out to someone. Yeah.
Because there are people around.
And once you put voice to those frightening thoughts, they lose some of their potency.
Absolutely. And it becomes more manageable.
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah.
And I think that it's part of that feeling like that no one's going to care idea,
which is why you don't reach out.
And of course, it's so far from the truth.
And everyone wants to care, you know, that you're so loved, you're so loved.
And like you're telling yourself, you're not in those moments.
And it's like, God, if you could just if you could just know that you are loved
and people do want to help.
And there is always hopefully going to be someone this one person.
And it only takes one person to tell your story to that can help you.
You know, so and look, you know, Cam was certainly doing the best he could
with the information I gave him.
It wasn't all the information.
And when he read the book, he was like, I had no idea it was to that depth.
But he could see I was in a very low place and he was doing the best he could.
But but yeah, look, I think I think reach, you know, finding yourself a good
therapist, finding someone that's a safe space to talk to is so, so helpful.
It's life saving. Yeah.
And it was menopause really that prompted this this mood shift,
wasn't it, for you in terms of your that low mood?
Yeah, look, it was a perfect storm for sure, because I don't want to sort of
alarm any menopausal or perimenopausal women thinking, oh, my God, am I going to
get like severe depression like her?
And look, it can cause depression, particularly if you're, you know,
have a pre predisposition, predisposition.
Sometimes it can, you know, trigger it.
But it was a combination for me of having just moved back from America.
I'd lost my entire support system.
I'd lost all my girlfriends who we were a gang of ladies that supported each other
through thick and thin and all of my kids, friends, all of my kids, friends,
parents who we were all friends with as well.
So moving back to Australia, I'd lost all of that.
And I didn't really have friendships here as yet.
And so that it just kicked in that deep, deep sense of loneliness.
And I was really, really, really struggling anyway with all of that
and exhausted from the move.
And then comes perimenopause.
And with it, all the symptoms, all the mental load, all the anxiety.
And so, yeah, that's that's really what spiralled me down.
And menopause is one of those things that we still don't talk enough about.
And and we need to.
I've gone through it recently.
And I'm someone who normally feel the cold terribly.
And I have to wear layer upon layer.
But then there are moments, I mean, recently where my husband's like,
what are you doing?
You've got literally nothing on you lying on top of the doona.
And it's freezing cold and I'm like, I'm so hot.
Absolutely. It's your superpower now.
I'll be out talking to someone and then suddenly out of nowhere,
this whole hot sort of.
And I'm more I can be a bit up and down, but normally I'm pretty even keeled.
And I found my mood was starting to really.
Yeah. And and I ignored it for a time,
which I think some of us do have a tendency to do.
And it was my mum who said, come on, go to the dock.
What are you doing?
You don't need to just sort of keep just dealing with this yourself.
It's one of those things that we're so ingrained with women,
you know, for the minute we start having our periods and we're getting period cramps.
Oh, you've just got to deal with your period cramps.
You know, you get him every month,
you know, and then labor pains.
And as I say, women who go through endometriosis and just there's so much
that as women, I feel like we just go, oh, just deal with this.
You know, I'm tired. I'm juggling so much.
That's just how I am. I'm busy.
So when all of those symptoms of menopause,
that sort of mimics so much of that, we get more tired,
we get more irritable because we're tired and more resentful.
And I don't it's not a nice sort of place to be, is it?
No, I don't like it.
No. Well, for me, what worked for me, I found I went to the specialist
and now I put like a gel on my arms each morning and take a tablet as well.
And that has, you know, I know obviously it's different for everyone,
but that has really worked a treat for me.
And that's the message that has to be told to everyone.
There is a lot of help and you need to know that there's a lot of help out there.
You know, go to your doctor, go to your specialist,
go to whoever, you know, is your caregiver.
And if they're not giving you the care you want, go to someone else.
Don't be dismissed for your symptoms.
You want to have someone that that says, tell me what else is going on.
OK, well, let's check for this.
Let's check for that.
Let's do a full blood work up on you and make sure your thyroid's OK
and all those things that could be changing at our age.
So you're in really good health in order to deal with the symptoms as well.
And then you've got your HRT, which is just a life changer for women.
And then you can support your HRT with naturopathic stuff,
like whichever way you want to go, your body, your choice.
But there's lots of choices and women need to look into those choices
so they're not struggling with so many symptoms,
including the mental load as well.
There is help for that, too.
And you don't have to do it on your own.
You don't have to be thinking, oh, I've just got to manage this.
Keep on keeping on putting yourself last.
No, put yourself first. Absolutely.
I want to finish up, Ali, with asking you where you're at now.
And what is next for you?
Because you I look at you and you just exude both inner and outer beauty.
And and I almost feel like for you, the best is yet to come.
It's funny the way my life is changing.
It's very exciting.
There's there's sort of, you know, just the little opportunities.
When I say little, I should say big opportunities
just to actually talk about menopause.
And it's not it's sort of further on from the book.
I've loved talking about queen menopause,
and I will talk about that till I'm blue in the face.
But what's opened up now is just the conversation around menopause
and just talking to women about that.
You know, I don't know where it's going to take me if it's retreats,
if it's workshops, if it's I don't know.
There's more writing I would like to do.
But I feel at my age more capable and more curious
and more excited to try new things than ever before.
I think I held myself back.
I think I was too afraid to try things.
And now I'm like, yeah, let's give it a go.
Let's try that. All right.
I'm going to say yes to that and we'll see what happens there.
And, you know, and just leap in.
So I'm much more excited for my second half than I ever thought I would be.
Oh, well, I can't wait to see what you leap into next.
I have just loved speaking with you, Allie.
Thank you so much. Thanks.
You're a beautiful soul. You too.
There is so much that resonates with me in that conversation with Allie.
Something that I just love and I'm going to take away with me
is that image she said about that petri dish, that idea of shame
and just having that drop of compassion or empathy for ourselves.
So I hope whatever it is you're doing today,
you make sure that you have some of that compassion for yourself
because you are enough.
Now, if this conversation raised any issues for you, please reach out.
You're not alone.
Lifeline is there.
Their number is 13 11 14.
As well, there is also the support line 1 800 respect.
We don't want you to feel alone after that conversation.
Now, Alison's book is called Queen Menopause,
Finding Your Majesty in the Mayhem,
where she shares her own experience in a very real way.
And for more big conversations like this,
follow the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
And while you're there, I'd love for you to leave a review
or share it with a friend.
And if you enjoyed this episode with Allie,
I reckon you'd love my chat with guest Madeleine West.
And it was such a demonstration for me of the kindness of strangers
that we often invest in relationships where it's like a give and take.
There's some kind of an agenda that's transactional.
There was nothing transactional about it.
The end, I thanked her and I said,
Oh, can I take you out for lunch or something?
And she just said, no, just just be happy.
And if there's someone you'd like to hear on the show,
you know, I love to hear from you, my dear listeners.
Send me a message on Instagram and we'll get in touch
and let's see what magic we can work out together.
The Jess Rowe Big Talk Show was presented by me, Jess Rowe,
executive producer, Nick McClure, audio producer, Nicky Sitch,
supervising producer, Sam Kavanagh.
Until next time, remember to live big.
Life is just too crazy and glorious
to waste time on the stuff that doesn't matter.