One day I realised that when I edited photos of myself, I would get more likes and I just
started to feel a bit sick about it because I thought that's damaging the way I see myself.
I think the only way that I can get more likes is by editing how I actually look and it was
more about how it damages my psyche.
Hi, I'm Jess Rowe and this is the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show, a podcast that skips the small
talk and goes big and deep.
From love to loss and everything in between, I want to show you a different side of people
who seem to have it all together in these raw and honest conversations about the things
I don't know about you, but in this time of social isolation, I really crave connected
conversations, so I'm going to dig deep to give you a new window into the souls of the
people we're curious to get to know and understand.
There might be tears as well as laughter as we celebrate the real life flaws and vulnerabilities
that make us human.
Abby Chatfield is an anti-influencer influencer.
She's built an empire off the back of reality television with her smart and self-deprecating
views on sex, politics and body positivity.
Like me, Abby is very open about her mental health and in this episode, we do discuss
some heavy stuff, so please reach out if you do need some help.
I'm in my 50s and I've got to say Abby scares me a little, but in a good way.
Life for me is about responsibility and looking after everyone else and somewhere along the
way, I forgot about me, so I wanted to talk to Abby about how I can remember that younger,
wilder woman and embrace that part of myself again.
Abby Chatfield, you come into the studio, you've got your hair, you've got your big
blue eyes, your beautiful smile, you have such a lovely energy, a beautiful way about
It's so nice to meet you.
Thanks for having me.
You're gorgeous, you're happy, you're joyous.
Oh, well, you're someone who, in a way, you scare me a little bit, but in a good way,
and I'll preface that by saying I'm 51, I'm going through menopause, I get very hot and
sweaty at night, but in not the good way that you talk about, and what I love about you
is that you are so open about sex, about pleasure and what you need and what's right.
How can you be like that?
I think I've always sort of been like this, so if we're going to go right back to my childhood,
if you like, a lot of people seem to think my mum must have been some, because I have
a single mother, so people seem to think my mum must have been some deviant, but my mum
was just very much, she never shamed sex, I wasn't in a religious family or anything,
but she also never really spoke about it unless asked, so there was this environment
where I knew if I asked her a question, she would answer me, like, oh, darling, it's just,
you know, but it was never like pushed upon us, so I think that's why I've always been
very open to it, and they went to an all-girls school where, I mean, you know, you talk about
anything and everything with the girls at lunch under the fig tree, so that kind of
also helped, despite the fact it was a Catholic girls' school, I had a very close-knit friendship
group of women, and I never really had any male friends in my life to kind of shame me
or such-shame me, you know what I mean, so I think that open experience with all my female
friends and my entire family are basically women except for a few of them, but, you know,
my extended family having a single mum and, like, aunties and all mum's female friends
growing up, it never was really shamed, like when Dipper said on I'm a Celebrity, for context
on I'm a Celebrity, get me out of here, I was wearing bikinis and Dipper said you shouldn't
go out looking like that as a joke, like a quote-unquote dad joke, and he was saying,
you know how your dad says that, and I was like, I've never heard that because I've had
females raising me my entire life.
You're not going out like that.
Dipper, what does that joke mean?
What does that joke mean?
You know, when a father sees his daughter, you know, grow up, and you go out to see a
boyfriend or whatever and walks out with, you know, a miniskirt and that sort of thing.
Well, you know, we're protective.
Of your girls being hurt, of your young ladies being hurt.
But why is it determined what we wear?
You are not going out like that.
But why is it determined by what we wear?
Well, it's like you're seeking attention and asking for, you know.
Oh, don't get into this little conversation.
No, asking for what?
So then I think after that, I also have amazing female friendships that, again, I've never
had anyone shame me in my life for anything.
We're all kind of similar.
People seem to think that I'm the crazy one in the friendship group, but my friends are
all just exactly as kooky as me and as loud as me.
Like I didn't tell you, just screaming.
I'm sure you have similar friends.
Well, you know what?
I have a very close network of female friends, but I'm not as free as you are.
And I wish I was because I look back on my younger life and I was a bit wild and crazy
But then what happened was I got married.
So I felt that I had to shed a part of my younger self.
And I wish I could find that again.
And I think that's why I'm drawn to you because I think, oh, I want some of what she's having.
That's so interesting.
I mean, I think a lot of it has come from after The Bachelor being so hated.
I then was kind of like, well, you all hate me anyway.
So because it was a trolling was just insane.
So after that, I was like, you know what?
I can speak about my abortion and if it helps one person, then that's fine because you all
Then it was like talking about slut-shaming.
You all hate me anyway.
So then I just felt like more freer and freer and freer.
And then now I'm just like, you know what?
I think the most important thing on social media and in media and traditional media as
well is to have some sort of authenticity.
And I think my lack of filter, which I was so I felt nervous about sharing that part
of me at first, obviously.
I mean, I had a corporate job before The Bachelor.
A property analyst?
I mean, that is so like, what is that?
It makes no sense.
So what then, you're a property analyst.
I can imagine you with your clipboard and doing, I don't know, figure statistics.
What then made you go, OK, I'm going to do The Bachelor?
It's a bit of a long story, but I'd gone to Scotland in June 2018 to surprise my friend.
She'd gotten engaged and her brother got me from the airport.
We liked each other, spent a couple weeks in Scotland with him.
And then he was like, I'm moving to Australia.
He came to Australia.
Nothing even happened.
It was a holiday romance, wasn't it?
But he's wonderful and I'm still very good friends with his sister.
But my housemate was just like, oh, we should apply for The Bachelor as a joke.
So it wasn't even like thought through.
So we applied and the next day we're auditions.
So I must be one of the last to put my application in because it was January.
Usually you apply in September, apparently.
I was just like, this will be funny.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
And then I got on.
So it wasn't even thought through.
Like people say, you know, you had this, I had this grand plan.
I was like sitting there for years.
It's like, do you think I'd be in property if I wanted to be in media?
You know what I mean?
That's probably the most direct, direct route for me.
So, yeah, it was kind of accidental, but it all just snowballed.
You know, from applying to being in the mansion, I think it was six weeks.
But do you think that was because, I mean, I think unfairly you were cast as sort of the villain in that series.
And so with your audition or interview, do you think they probably saw you and thought,
yes, we're going to put a tag on Abby as she's going to be the villain.
She's going to be the one who, because your openness and your sense of being comfortable in your skin
would have come across in that interview.
Yeah, I do wonder this.
Actually, I'm still friends with someone who cast me.
I should ask him.
You mean you haven't asked him yet?
No, because I just love them.
You know, the producers on the show, actually, people think, oh, you must hate the producers.
And I'm like, no, they're just really good at their jobs.
Like one of them, I used to always be like, God, she's good at her fucking job.
I'm like, she's so good, it makes me angry.
But I don't know.
I think in my audition, I cried a lot.
I'm a huge cryer.
I cried almost every day in the mansion.
So I don't know if they just saw like a strong personality and then they were like, and that means villain.
But I spoke about like my childhood and cried out my childhood.
I also went to all girls, like I was saying, and I thought I'd go into the mansion and have all these,
you know, really easily have friends.
And my only friends in there really were the crew and then Jess Brody.
So you see, I don't swear.
No, no, no, no, please, please.
It doesn't bother me.
My daughters swear.
That's the thing.
I'm surrounded by swears.
But there's a part of me that is a bit uptight and I wish I wasn't.
And so when I see you on The Bachelor, again, I think, why would you do that?
Why would you put yourself in that position?
You've got no problems.
You'd have no problems finding fabulous fellas.
Why put yourself in that situation?
I honestly just thought it was funny.
Honestly, it wasn't that deep.
You know, everyone thinks.
But I think I just thought, OK, I've, you know, I've had a few failed lessons.
I was 23, though, which is so funny because I was like, I'm getting on.
What are you talking about?
But you're still a baby.
What are you now?
So I was still, you know, I was so young on the show.
You are still so young.
But with that, I mean, as a 23 year old going into the show and then, as you mentioned earlier,
you got the most horrific level of trolling and hate your way.
How on earth do you navigate that or manage that?
Honestly, I didn't very well at first.
What I did logistically during the show was one of my best friends, Ceesha.
I love you, Ceesha.
She was in social media marketing, so she knew how to, like, handle my Instagram.
Like, I didn't even know that, you know, the restrict function or, like, restricting comments.
I didn't even know how it worked.
So I would give her my Instagram login on, like, Wednesday through Friday,
and then she'd be like, all clear.
And then I was allowed to go onto my Instagram and use it personally.
And then by about, you know, Wednesday afternoon, I'd get out and she'd get back in.
So I had a good friend of mine, like a little social media manager,
that now they have someone from 10 doing it, which is great.
But yeah, so I had her.
But then during the show, I really didn't.
I was really close.
I had really extreme suicidal ideation, unfortunately, at the end of the season,
the weekend before finale aired.
Because when you're in it, you don't think it's ever going to end.
You're like, I'm just going to get this.
I mean, to be fair, it hasn't really ended, but I've gotten better at dealing with it.
Because you've owned it now, and I think you're empowered about it.
Whereas during that time, you're removed from your family, your friends,
the people who get you, who know you.
And so tell me a little bit more then about that suicidal ideation,
because I mean, that's just a terrible place to be.
Yeah, it was awful.
I mean, I've struggled with depression, anxiety since I was probably like,
I want to say 18, 19.
So not super young, but still like that kind of era of my life.
And I had had some really, really bad times in 2017.
See, people have called me up on this saying that, because I just call it an attempt
because I was so determined to do it that I didn't.
But I guess it wasn't an attempt.
Basically, I went to a bridge then called Lifeline,
because I saw the Lifeline things.
Now you always think, who does that save?
Well, it saved me.
Because I was like, I was really drunk, and I was going to the story bridge.
I was like, I'm going to do it.
But part of my brain was like, better just call.
And then I got in an ambulance and went to the hospital overnight.
So yeah, I guess it isn't an attempt.
I don't know what you'd call that.
But do you know what?
Why do you need to even explain or say to people, well, it was this or whatever?
You were clearly a young woman at the very edge.
And why do you have to explain or justify that to people?
That's true. Yeah.
People just like to say that I'm trying to get attention for it.
But it just that's the best wording that I have for it.
My friends call it bridge-sident.
As like, my friends are like me.
So they call it bridge-sident.
That was so random.
But like, obviously they're very supportive and wonderful.
But it's good to laugh though, isn't it?
Because you came through that.
And I think humour and laughter is a very important way of trying to manage or look back on terrible times.
Yeah, it was awful and it was really hard to deal with.
So I already had kind of that history, but I thought it was all good I went on the show.
Let's just go back though a bit.
You rang Lifeline.
You spoke to them.
Yes. And then they called an ambulance.
Actually, this is kind of an interesting story.
So I had had suicidal ideation and I'd been going to this GP in my house.
I kept begging for the mental health plan.
Like I was like, I'm not doing well.
I need the mental health plan.
And he said, no, no, no, you don't need it.
We don't give it out to everyone.
But I was saying like, I am on the verge of suicide.
Can you please, can you please give me a mental health plan?
Which basically means I want to please go and see a psychologist.
A psychologist and a certain number of visits will be paid for by Medicare.
Thanks for explaining.
We love the context.
And he said, no, he just gave me Valium instead.
So that night I'd had like two Valium and like a few drinks.
And I didn't understand the mixing of the Valium with the drinking would make me super.
It was October 1st.
I remember it made me super drunk.
So leading up to it, I had been asking my GP for help.
And I had been asking, you know, people to help me with.
Because psychologists are so expensive.
It's like $250 a session.
And when you're at uni, it's not even like you can't even afford, you know, you have
meagering every night for dinner.
You can't afford a $200 a week in a psychologist.
So when it's subsidized, you think, OK.
And then I was on Valium and had a few drinks.
And, yeah, I went to the bridge then called Lifeline.
And I can't really remember, but I remember they were like, OK, we're going to call an
ambulance, stay there.
And the ambulance came.
And then I just stayed the night in hospital and my friends came to get me.
And then that was kind of like a rude awakening, I guess, for all my friends and for myself.
Then my best friend at the time said, you have to go to therapy or, like, I'm not like
tough love, which was good.
So I went to therapy.
What amazing friends that you have around you.
To actually say that.
So then were you able to get that help?
So then I went to a different GP.
But actually kind of funny.
So I was seeing someone and I went into the GP to try and get a mental health plan.
And I'd had an STI check three months before and I had never gotten a call.
So, you know, no news is good news, right?
And I went in like two days after.
But wait a minute.
What do you mean?
It's going to link up.
No news is good news.
So you know how you usually get an STI check.
When you get an STI check, if you don't get a call, it means you don't have anything.
They only call you if something bad's happened.
Wouldn't you have symptoms?
I was just getting routinely checked because I'm an STI conscious queen.
So I went into the GP, this new GP, who I'd been to just for a check three months before.
And I went into him to get on antidepressants and to get a mental health plan.
He was like, so you got chlamydia?
And I was like, it's like three days after, bridge accident.
And I was like, oh, doctor, I came in here today.
And he was so lovely.
He was like, oh, my God, I thought you got a call for a routine check.
I was like, no, no, no.
I made this to try and get a mental health plan because I went to the story bridge three
In hindsight, obviously at the time.
And chlamydia, you know, take a pill and it's fine.
But it was almost like it was a dark sitcom.
Like the fact that I walked in and I was trying to get myself help.
But yeah, so then I went on antidepressants and then I went to therapy and kind of got
And then I was open about this when I got into the show, like told them everything to
get on because I thought if I lie, then something happens and it's on them and or it's on me.
Then it's, I don't, you know, I didn't want to get on the show by lying about my mental
And I just, I think when you go on these shows, you think, oh, who cares what some random
person in Wagga Wagga says about you.
When you're having millions of comments, I really think there's something happens to
your brain when you're reading those things about yourself, regardless of who's it from,
when there's thousands and thousands a day.
And every article about you, every Facebook post about you has the more angry face reactions
because you're on their screen.
They're so angry.
And it was just, it was really hard.
And with Matt as well, I'd also been to a break up.
You know, I loved him and it was just so sad.
So it was so clear.
The connection that the two of you had.
There are feelings there.
That's, I've never said or felt anything that wasn't there.
That's not anything that was wrong or missing.
And it's just that my heart belongs with someone else.
Completely heartbreaking.
Completely, absolutely heartbreaking.
So how then did you get through that?
Because I think your story is so important because a lot of other young women relate to you
because you're open.
You talk about how you feel.
You talk about your sexuality and your mental health.
Because I think now more than ever, young people are struggling.
It was really difficult.
I mean, I called the show therapist quite regularly.
And then I got a new therapist, which was good.
I think a lot of people want me to have answers to this question with like,
I just had a positive outlook.
I'm like no into therapy and got an antidepressant.
It wasn't, I don't have some answer to it, you know.
Unfortunately, the way to deal with this stuff is to go to therapy or, you know,
practice mindfulness or find a way.
It doesn't always look like antidepressants for people, but for me it did.
And you've got to put the work in, don't you?
Because I think it's so good that you're open to about antidepressants.
I went back that my mental health, my anxiety was creeping back again.
But for me, that's just one part of my toolkit for my mental health.
For you, what else do you do to keep in that sort of positive mindset?
Because we can't be positive all the time.
No, we definitely can't.
I think, yeah, it is kind of like a wheelhouse.
It's going to therapy once we, and going to therapy when you think things are good.
That's the biggest thing I think a lot of people that go to therapy in an antidepressant
say is when you think you're okay and you've got nothing to talk about,
that's when you do the actual work underneath.
So that's the biggest thing for me.
As well as during lockdown, I just went for so many walks, just walking so much,
And I would try to listen to mindfulness podcasts and I would try to be more aware.
But that currently goes so far.
Lockdown was, as you were saying, it's very difficult.
So I think after all these difficult times, I think as well being easy on myself
and not thinking, why aren't I happy?
You need to be happier.
Things going well for you.
This is happening, this is happening.
It's been like, yeah, you can have a bad day.
We don't do any work.
Don't do even any work on yourself.
Your task for today is doing a yoga session because your back hurts.
Or your task for today is watch three episodes of Real Housewives.
I think it's just being easy on yourself, which is so hard to say,
but it's honestly a mixture of therapy.
When I say exercise, I don't mean like HIIT and F45
and just going for a walk around the block.
Be like 10 minutes, have a breather, get out of your apartment,
living alone in lockdown.
That saved my life.
But yeah, and even just talking to friends about it,
I think we're all really scared to talk to our like, I'm fine.
But wait a minute.
You're not scared, are you?
I think it's easier for me to post on my Instagram stories anonymously
than it is to call my close friends and talk to them about it.
But wait a minute.
You don't post anonymously because we see your beautiful face.
We see what you're saying.
We see your captions.
There's your image.
So it's not anonymous.
It's not anonymous.
But I guess the people who are watching it to me are anonymous.
So I'll just see down the bottom, you know, 111,000 viewers.
And I was like, OK, cool.
Like, you know what I mean?
Whereas if my friends are talking to me, like one of my friends,
like, oh, your story the other day.
And I was like, you watch my stories?
And she's like, yes, my best friend.
I was like, but you watch my content?
She's like, yeah.
To me, it's so separate because it's like that's not entirely,
And it's like my friends that watch the Love Island show that I'm hosting,
I'm like, oh, you watch that?
And they're like, yes, I'm your good friend.
And I'm like, it doesn't even register to me in my life, watch my stuff.
So does that then let you be freer, that you're able to sort of almost
separate it, as you say?
Now that I'm talking about it, yeah, I think so.
I still can talk to my friends much easier than most, I think.
What about your mum?
Because this is, I know I've mentioned, you know, I'm a mum.
It's because my daughters are just young teenagers.
And I try and be as open as possible.
But even me, there's some things I don't want to say because I don't know
what my mum's going to think.
And I still worry about that.
And I think, come on, you're a grown woman.
Why am I worrying?
Do you worry that you've been so open about your sexuality,
about the vibrators which are selling out?
Do you think, oh, God, what will mum think?
Yeah, at first I did with the vibrator.
I was like, oh, mum, I'm doing a collab with a product and it's so exciting.
And she's like, oh, congratulations, darling.
And then it came out and she's like, a vibrator.
And I was like, yes, a vibrator.
So you didn't tell her until it came out?
Yeah, until I was like, and this is how many we sold.
Aren't you proud of me?
And then what did she say?
She was just like, oh, darling, you're so amazing.
I'm so proud of you.
I never thought you'd be selling vibrators, but I'm so proud of you.
You know, she's, like I was saying, she's not like this.
Isn't that great?
I think that is so empowering.
I think to have your mum going, yes, you go.
You keep doing all this amazing stuff.
As opposed to either shaming you, not deliberately, but just sort of in a way
that makes you second guess, oh, who am I?
Again, she's not some like, I mean, not that she isn't sex positive,
but she's not like some like down my throat, like, you know,
talking about sexuality like the mum from sex education.
She's just like, oh, darling, I'm proud of you.
That's a success and I'm proud of you and what you're doing.
But the thing that I get worried about with mum is obviously she loves me so much
that she's every day on the Google, on the Daily Mail,
seeing what's happening with me.
And she gets, she kind of, she calls me, she goes, I don't believe the headline,
but I'm checking in to make sure you're OK.
And there was an article of me having a heated conversation on Bondi Beach
on the phone and it was me walking.
And mum called me, she's like, darling, I just want to see you're OK,
You looked upset.
I was like, mum, I was on the phone to you.
I was like, mum, you and I were talking about anti-vaxxers on the phone
and talking about how borders are closed.
Like she was like, I was really worried.
We were yelling at each other, like not like yelling in agreeance on the phone.
So she gets worried about things like that.
And that's what I get worried about.
Like I almost had a car accident recently and I posted about it.
I'd called her, but she has a phone at home and Daily Mail made an article
before she could call me back.
And she's like, why didn't you tell me?
I was like, mum, you were at tea with your friends.
And you had your phone off.
So it's more like she gets worried.
I'm not telling her things about my life, but Daily Mail knows.
Like, mum, I tell you everything.
That's more now where I get worried about mum.
It's never like anything I do, I know she's going to love me and be proud of me,
you know, and if things go wrong, she'll always be there for me.
So, yeah, she's wonderful.
I feel like I'm a proud mum looking at you because, you know,
you're everything that I think we want young women to be.
But you are comfortable in your skin.
I mean, that's how you come across to me.
Would you say that you are?
I think I am now.
I think because my followers and the community that's on Instagram,
as wanky as that sounds, but people are so nice to me when they meet me in person.
People cry when they meet me being like, you've made me love my body or love myself
or I came for the first time because of you.
And wait, how does that make you feel?
Because I would be so embarrassed.
I'm like, yes, queen.
I love that people are so, they're so nice.
People are like so, so, so, so, so, so lovely when they meet me.
And if ever I have days where I'm like, I don't like how I look or like my,
even my personality, I think sometimes I watch interviews of myself
and be like, why did I say that?
Like, oh, it's so embarrassing.
Or like see myself on TV and be like, oh, God.
I think it's a little bit disingenuous for me to have those thoughts.
And I try to get myself back into like a positive mindset about myself.
So I'll write like things I like about myself in a notebook or something,
which is so cliche.
But I just feel like it's disingenuous.
I think that's a very practical way to keep your head on track.
And I think that's a great thing to do.
And then if you can encourage other young women to do that, that's fantastic.
Yeah, it just feels a little bit, you're like, oh, God,
write a love letter to yourself.
But I think that's what keeps me.
No, but we need to do that.
We need to do that.
And I think another part of what you've been posting that really, I suppose,
resonated with me, but more on behalf of when I think about my daughters
and other young women is when there was some paps who took some pictures of you
in a bikini, an orange bikini, and you looked hot.
You looked amazing.
But it was framed as, oh, you're not having a good sort of body day.
But the way you hit back at that and said, no, I'm actually,
this is how my body is.
Yeah, that's how I look.
I try to never think that that's like a bad photo of me or a good photo of me.
I mean, there are some hot photos of me.
You see a photo of yourself and you're like, that's a goodie.
Because can I say, your boobs are amazing.
From a very flat chested woman, I'm like, wow, look at Abby's boobs.
They're very moody.
They've got two cup size difference throughout the month.
So on my period it'll be like an E cup.
I'm like, no, I think they're a D because I'm ovulating.
That's why bikinis sometimes don't fit me because I buy them when I accidentally,
at the wrong time of the month, I need to buy them in between the ovulation
It's very stressful.
My flow app being like, buy bras now.
But yeah, I think that was something that I decided early on when I started getting
papped and they get the worst photos and they upload the worst photos.
Well, they're waiting.
They're waiting for them.
They're waiting for the worst photos.
And also even like photos of the fans.
I'm like, you know, they're like, oh, are you okay with me uploading that?
And I'm like, that's how I looked when we took the photo.
Do I think it's the hottest photo of me in the world?
No, I'll still reshare it because it was really nice meeting you.
It was really nice meeting you.
And also because that's just how I look.
There's a spectrum of how we look.
Sometimes we look great.
Sometimes we look, you know, not our best, which is fine.
But I think it's all photos of me.
So that's how I try to reframe it of myself.
I also don't try to take too many, like when I'm doing content,
like too many photos, like try and get the perfect photo.
I'm like, that's good enough.
And not in a lazy way, being like, oh, whatever.
And I think it's freed me so much from panicking about what I post.
I just, I'm able to, you know, take photos with friends
and actually upload things.
So I'm like, oh, we look really happy there,
not because I look really good there.
And I think it's helped me kind of not care
when paparazzi photos are bad, quote unquote bad.
And the other thing as well, I think,
growing up in a generation that is all social media driven,
and I think that must be really tough for you.
Because I think about when I was growing up and a similar age to you,
I just think, thank goodness there was no phones
and all of that stuff to capture things.
And I think that puts an added pressure on your shoulders.
I mean, I think I was kind of the last year of people,
like Instagram came around when I was, I want to say grade 11 or grade 10.
So I was kind of formed, right?
Like when you're 16, you like, you aren't new on a kid kid,
but you at least like have some sort of understanding.
And the first years of Instagram were just photos of coffee and like weird filters.
So it wasn't like it is now.
So I'm very lucky in that sense.
But when it all kind of boomed, everyone was editing their photos.
Everyone was uploading, you know, had FaceTune on their phones.
And then one day I realised that when I edited photos of myself,
I would get more likes.
And I just started to feel a bit sick about it
because I thought that's damaging my, the way I see myself.
I think the only way that I can get more likes is by editing how I actually look.
And it was more about how it damages my psyche.
So that's why I don't edit photos anymore.
But it is concerning for-
I do like a Valencia filter though.
I'll do a filter to make colours pop.
But like, you know, like a body.
Or like if I have, you know, like, I mean,
I've never had an issue with cellulite.
Side note, everyone is like, how do you accept your cellulite?
Because I have cellulite on the front of my legs.
But we all have cellulite.
We all have cellulite.
We all have cellulite.
But it's because mum, again,
because mum was always so neutral about everything,
she would call them bottom dimples
and would say how cute are your bottom dimples from when we were little.
So cellulite for me was never a thing.
Stretch marks for me, I have them.
But I was never self-conscious about them
because mum only commented positively on her own body and on our bodies.
So I was very, very, very lucky in that sense, you know.
This is something I struggle with
and some of my friends struggle with it too with teenage daughters.
The G-string bikini.
And I don't like saying you can't wear that
because I'm wanting to protect them from pervs, essentially.
And I'm like, can't you have something that covers your bottom a bit more?
And they're like, but it's fashion.
How do I manage that?
Well, I go topless at Bondi.
Well, you see, but that's the interesting thing
because I would go topless as a teenager.
Oh, really? Yeah, right.
My mum would go topless.
And so that's been kind of the struggle for me
because I think to myself, well, wait a minute.
I did go topless as a teenager.
I didn't think that was remotely sexual
or I didn't think I was sexualising myself at all.
I just did it because it was the fashion.
But I have this issue with my daughter's elder daughter
showing her bottom to everyone.
I think the biggest thing, if people are going to be pervs,
they're going to perv if you're in a full piece,
if you're in a little micro bikini, if you're in a G-string.
And my mum just says the same thing.
She's like, your bottom's out.
And I'm like, yes, mum.
Ever since I was the same age as well, she's like,
your bloody bottom's out.
And I'm like, yes, mum, I have a good bottom.
And she's like, yes, you do,
but you've got a beautiful figure, but please.
And I'm like, mum.
And I think as well, maybe talking to her,
saying that it's going to make her ashamed of her body
and ashamed of her ass.
Like, you were topless when you were a teenager.
But that's what she'll come back to me at
because she'll go, mum, you tell me that I should love my body
and I've got a beautiful body.
So this is what I'm doing.
She throws it all back at me.
But it's that struggle within myself to try
and make sense of it, protect her,
let her embrace herself and be positive.
And I suppose where it came to a head,
and part of me was very proud of her.
She went to a restaurant with a friend,
then she was walking past a table outside,
and there were these older men.
And often I think women or young girls
can look older than they are,
but these older men were looking them up and down
and said something very inappropriate.
But my daughter turned around, and as I said,
I'm not a swearer.
She turned around and she said to this man,
I was like, yes, go.
But then there was another part of me that was like,
oh my God, what if he would have turned around
and abused her more or been violent or something?
And so I still grapple with that.
This thing, we're in a bind as women.
But if you let, even as an adult woman now,
I have people yell things at me, you know,
and I turn around and I go, get effed,
or I'm like, you...
Look, I've had an impact on you, Ebby.
You just said get effed.
I didn't say the words.
I didn't want to say Jessica.
I know, the mom energy.
I didn't want mom to be disappointed in me.
Get effed, effed.
See, I'm a bit cool if you do what I say.
I'll start saying get effed,
and I'll tag you every time I do it.
But then you kind of think,
if I say something to you, you could come around.
Like that Knox grandma boy who then hit that young woman
who said something to him
when he was trying to start shaming her
for what she was wearing.
That is a very real consequence, and it is scary.
But I don't even know what to say
because I still don't know if I should react.
If I'm by myself, I often don't react.
I just keep walking with friends.
I'll react because I'm like, if you, you know,
I've got my girls behind me or I've got someone with me.
I wish I had the answer.
I wish I knew what she should do.
But I'm proud of her
because that's what I was doing when I was 14 as well.
I'd be like, shut up.
Go away, which is great.
But it is concerning because then men's egos get bruised
and they want to prove something.
But I think in that instance, was it during the day?
Yeah, it's scary.
Hey, it's scary because then if you embarrass
the person in front of their grown adult mates,
they may then want to retaliate.
But it's very scary.
It's just a reality of what we have to deal with as women
and what she's going to have to deal with.
So I don't know what the answer is to that.
It's awful, isn't it?
Again, I think that's what's so fabulous about you, though,
is that you're a voice for my daughters
and for other young women
and this confidence that you have that I never had.
And in a way, I envy that.
I mean, I'm not that confident.
I mean, I guess I am, but I just don't have a filter.
What do you mean?
Everyone's like, how do you get the confidence
to talk about these things?
And I'm like, I don't know.
I think it's more that I can't keep things in.
My family's very like, at Christmas,
there's always debates about things, you know,
like very aggressive debates, but in a fun way.
Like we have debates about, like a couple of years ago,
it was the fact that if someone calls you nice,
they're actually insulting you.
No, I like being called nice.
No, you like being called nice in as a list, as a listicle,
not as, okay, if you met your daughter's boyfriend
and you went, yeah, he was nice.
That's an insult.
When you go, oh, he was really intelligent
and a gorgeous boy, that would be nice.
If you say he's nice, that's like,
there's nothing good to say about him.
He's not interesting.
So that was our argument.
Those are the things we fight about.
So I think I've just always had a very loud mouth
and I just have had, you know,
arguments with my sister and mum about like political issues.
So I just, it's not that I'm confident
that I have an issue keeping my mouth shut.
I'm now trying to train myself to not fight back on Instagram
because I'm like, it's costing me my peace.
Walk away from the phone.
That's what I've said to some of my younger friends
who get very invested.
And I have over time too, but the best thing I've said,
just walk away from the phone.
It doesn't matter.
Like when you said early on, you had that friend of yours
who would get to your phone while you were doing The Bachelor
and get rid of all the nasty stuff.
And then you could deal with other things.
I got a phone lock recently, a phone safe to put my,
I have my work phone.
So this one that's with me now.
Then I got a second personal phone.
So I've got a little safe.
I'm going to put it in every night.
And I say, I'm going to because I haven't done it yet
because I can't put it down,
but I'm going to put it in a safe and in the back corner.
When are you going to do that?
And I'll just put the phone in there.
Because I've got a new phone.
I'm like, I'm only getting my new phone.
I'm talking about my mom, my best friends,
and my manager in case something goes wild.
But I'm just, I'm going to put it away.
But it's just really hard as well because it's like,
it's just cash running too with social media,
which I'm sure you understand,
your daughters understand as well,
is that it's your place.
It is like a form of relaxation.
It's entertainment.
And it's how you connect.
It's how you connect.
And I look at my girls too,
and I think that's how they connect with their friends.
That's how they make sense of themselves in the world.
I mean, I could talk to you for an eon.
I want to put you in my handbag and bring you home
and just go, look girls, here is a cool girl.
Because listen to her.
She knows what she's all about.
What I want to finish with asking you is,
I mean, you've built an incredible empire.
No, not accidentally.
You have done it off the back of The Bachelor
and built this incredible sort of movement,
I think, around your confidence, your voice,
empowering other women.
You've bought a house up at Byron.
What do you see next for you?
I mean, I've got some very, you know how it is,
I've got some very exciting things that I can't talk about
because I have NDAs.
This is the big talk show.
We have to talk about everything.
Okay, well, I've got some new television things
that I'm really excited about.
It's going to be less, I mean, it's still about sex.
Everything's always about sex with me.
But we need that because I, you know what?
I want you to do a sex show for older women.
Because I think there's a whole generation,
I'm putting myself in this box,
who we do lose sight of our sexuality.
We pack it away because we're carers.
We're looking after everyone,
whether it be our kids, our partners, our older parents.
And we forget about that sexy part of ourselves.
So I'd like to do a sex show with you, Abby.
Should we pitch it?
Should we pitch it?
Who's listening at 7, 9, 10, maybe SBS?
Anyway, Netflix stand is putting it out there soon.
And we could sell you vibrators
and then maybe I could have a range.
I'm a crazy cat lady.
And I could maybe get some caties.
Leopard print as well.
But I'm also trying to write a book.
Been trying for a long time.
Gotten a bit busy.
It was meant to come out July.
I'm still like slowly doing it.
You've got your whole life ahead of you.
And also I kind of was proud of myself for giving back the advance.
Because I was like, you know what?
And this has caused me so much stress.
I can still do it.
I still talk to them.
You know, my publishers like, it's still like happening.
But I was like, I need to do some self care and not feel pressure for something.
I can't say yes to everything all the time.
So I initially was a bit upset because I felt like I'd failed at it.
But I'm like, no, no, no.
You're doing the right thing for you.
You've got so much on.
There's no need to be pushing yourself all the time.
And then, you know, the podcast is now with listeners.
I'm just, you know, a lot going on all the time.
I love you, Abby.
Abby is such a phenomenal young woman.
And how about the fact that she's now saying F off instead of swearing?
I feel quite proud of that moment.
That's a proud mummy moment for me.
Now, Abby's podcast, It's A Lot, is available now on listener
or wherever you get your podcasts every Tuesday and Friday.
For more beautiful, big conversations like this,
search the Jess Rowe Big Talk Show podcast.
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Life is just too crazy and glorious to waste time on the stuff
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