How Emma Mckeon Became Our Most Successful Olympian Of All Time

At the Tokyo 2020 Olympics, Emma McKeon became Australia's most successful Olympian of all time.

Her 11 Olympic medals overall broke the previous Australian record of nine from Ian Thorpe and Liesl Jones over the course of their careers.

But it was a failed attempt to qualify for the London 2012 Olympics that was one of many moments where Emma chose to walk away from the sport.

It was her Olympic goal that always drew her back.

Sport and the Olympics is a moment in time that unites people and creates such a strong community for the athletes.

This series is presented by Nike, championing athletes like Emma, listening to athletes' needs and supporting them throughout all their journeys.

It was a true honour to sit down and chat with Emma to learn more about her journey through self-criticism, doubt and overwhelming pressure to becoming the most decorated Olympian in our country's history.

I hope you enjoy it.

Emma McKeon, welcome.

Welcome to the Female Athlete Project.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me on.

This is a real honour to have you on, particularly in the lead up to the Olympics.

But before we kind of get to what that looks like, can you take us back and describe what Emma was like as a little kid?

Definitely a water baby from a very young age.

Both my parents were swimmers and they ran a swim school.

So they had me, my brother and my sister, like they loved the water.

So we just grew up around it as well.

Like down at the beach.

Or in the lake or in the backyard pool, things like that.

So just definitely a water baby.

From around five, it was the 2000 Olympics that kind of like opened my eyes to sport and the Olympics and things like that.

So even though I was super young and I didn't like understand it, but because it was in Sydney and I lived in Wollongong and for some of the sessions, we'd catch the train up to the Olympics.

So it was just kind of that, I don't know, just the vibe of the place, I guess, and the excitement around it all that just kind of put that little fire in me, I guess, or just that little, I don't know, just it allowed me to realise that that was a thing, I think.

And yeah, just started from there, I think.

Were there any specific athletes at Sydney 2000 that kind of caught your eye?

Susie O'Neill was like the only one.

No love for Cathy?

It was all in the pool?

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, there's love for all of them, obviously, but I was a five-year-old and I loved swimming and I loved being in the water.

And so, yeah, I admired her from a really young age.

That's really cool.

What was it like having a family that was swimming royalty and you talked about being a water baby?

Was it something you felt like you had a moment of falling in love with it or was almost just that's kind of how it always was?

It was kind of just always like that just because most of my childhood and well, like up to like even 12 years old, like it was just enjoyment and fun.

And definitely in those early years, like I'd do a swimming lesson a couple of times a week.

And that was just literally water safety, really learning how to be safe in the water.

And then outside of that, it was just playing in the pool with my cousins.

So brother and sister or friends and things like that.

So it wasn't till quite late that it became like training.

It was like early teenage years that it became actual training for me.

How did you manage that balance with like starting kind of when you started to get a bit more serious, like heading into high school and things like that?

What was that balance like for you?

I think the balance was fine.

But I when I started competing and started getting a little bit better and started like pursuing personal best times and things like that.

I started to put a lot of pressure on myself.

So from a young age, I did that like early teenage years.

And that was something I had to learn to manage over the years.

It's a really interesting topic.

I just was interviewed on a podcast and that was the big thing.

We talked about pressure as an athlete and how you kind of learn throughout your career to manage that.

But when you were young, what was it?

Where did you feel like that pressure came from?

It was all from me.

Like there was never any pressure from my parents or my coach or also like anywhere else.

It was just all me.

Like, I think I wanted to be good and I wanted to do my best times all the time.

And I guess when it came to like a bigger meet, like age nationals or something like that, I'd get really nervous because I was just thinking like I want to do a best time or like what are the other girls going to do kind of thing.

And I just put pressure on myself.

So that was, yeah, definitely something.

It took me a while to work out how to manage that.

But yeah, over the years, I got used to it and managed it.

Do you feel like there was a moment throughout those years that was kind of something that changed the course of your life or a career defining moment in a way?

I'd say around 15 or 16.

When I was 15, I made my first.

National senior team.

And that was to a world short course in Dubai.

And so that was like, I probably wasn't ready to go on that kind of team, especially for coming from Wollongong.

A lot of the like elite swimmers trained either in Sydney or in Queensland or something like that.

So I didn't know anyone.

And especially being a lot younger than the others.

I didn't really come across them unless I.

Was at nationals and there I'd be in the marshalling area, just being awestruck by a lot of them.

So going away on that team, I just knew nobody wasn't.

I didn't grow up around super elite people, elite athletes like the way that a lot of I've seen a lot of kids, especially up in Queensland are now.

So I was very daunting going around that trip.

And again, put a lot of pressure on myself.

I put a lot of pressure on myself and things like that, and that just stopped the enjoyment for me and I didn't like racing anymore, didn't like training because I put a lot of pressure on myself and training as well and then I stopped swimming.

I decided to give it away and then I did that quite a few, I came back and then stopped again, came back and I did that quite a lot throughout those later teenage years.

And then the last time that I did come back, it was like, I'd finally.

Worked out like why I kept stopping.

It was because of the pressure and everything.

And I, there were so many other parts of swimming that I really did enjoy and that I'd miss when I wasn't swimming.

So I had to work out how to manage that.

And yeah, I was only going to be able to keep going and succeed and enjoy it if I wasn't putting so much pressure on myself.

So they were like, even though it was really hard and like, I'd stop and give it away and things like that, it was like vital lessons that I needed to learn.

It's quite an interesting thing.

Like, what do you think it was the overarching thing that kept bringing you back to it?

Uh, I think it was definitely like having a goal that you worked really hard for.

I've always really enjoyed that like day after day, pushing for something that you dream of doing.

So like for me, ever since I was little, I wanted to go to the Olympics and when I missed the team, the Olympic team for London in 2012.

Um, I stopped after that because I was like, I don't want to train and put pressure on myself like that and feel that like those really uncomfortable feelings for another four years.

Even though I knew I wanted to go to the Olympics one day, I just thought that dream, I just won't achieve kind of thing.

Um, but what did bring me back was knowing that or having the belief that I was capable and just working really hard for something.

Yeah, it's quite, it's, yeah, it's cool.

It's a really cool part of your story.

Um, I want to chat about that London 2012.

What was it like that feeling of working so hard, as you said, and then finding out that dream wasn't going to happen?

It was hard.

Both my brother and my other training partner, Jared Port, they both made the team.

So, uh, and I went to school with Jared.

So it was hard.

Like, obviously I was so excited for both of them.

But I was sad that I wasn't going to be able to do, do it with them.

And obviously as well as just finally getting to the Olympics that I had always dreamt of since I was little, um, that was really hard.

Um, but I think I learned like, especially leading into those Olympic trials, I was in year 12 and I probably didn't work hard enough consistently enough.

Like when I was in year 12, I was in year 12.

And I was at the pool, I could work hard, but, um, there'd be times that I wanted to go off and do things with my friends instead and things like that.

So that was also a lesson down the track, not at the time that I learned, but down the track that I realized, like, no, you need to be turning up every single day.

You need to be very consistent to be able to make an Australian Olympic swim team.

So, yeah.

So you made your call that you, you take a bit of time off after that.

You come back with the goal of Rio in 2016.

What is the head noise like as a swimmer following that black line down the middle of the pool when you're in these like really, really tough sessions?

There is a lot of head noise, actually.

I never like notice the black line, but because you've got your head down for so long and then you're on the wall for a bit, either listening to times that your coach is yelling out or listening to whatever the next, um,

set might be, and then you're back pushing off and you're in your head again, thinking, uh, either about the pain or, um, about the technique or about goals or it's all over the shop, really.

There's a lot going on.

Yeah.

What was the lead up like to Rio in 2016, knowing that you'd learned how to prioritize your training and it sounds like you had a bit of a mindset shift off the back of London?

Um, well, I trained, I got back in the pool towards the end of 2012, um, and then made the team for world championships the following year for relays.

Um, and so I think making that team, I was like, okay, I can, I can do this and I can race at this level and, um, you know, train consistently and things like that.

And I started to enjoy it a lot more because.

I was doing everything consistently and started to believe in myself more and just kind of focus on what I needed to do rather than focusing on the pressure that I'd put on myself and things like that.

Um, and then, so I was, my coach was my dad when I lived in Wollongong.

And so he coached my brother and I, and after that 2013 team, he said to both of us.

Why don't you go and try a coach?

That's not your dad and see if you like it, because I guess he, he knew that we were going to be swimming for a long, a while, and that we're going to try and make a career out of it kind of thing.

So he wanted to give us that opportunity to try that.

So we both moved up to Brisbane, started coaching, uh, started swimming under another coach and I've been up here for the last 10 years now.

So, um, that went well.

And.

Um, yeah.

How did that relationship change from the dynamic of your dad being your coach to your dad, just becoming your dad again?

There wasn't really, uh, except for like the day to day turning up to training and him coaching us.

That was probably the biggest difference because he was really good at balancing it.

And I'm sure he found it difficult at times.

And, um, especially, I mean, probably for both of us.

But especially me, just being a teenager at school, like being a bit annoying sometimes, um, he definitely would have found it hard, but he managed it really well.

Like he was, um, he was always our dad first.

Um, but when we're at the pool, like he knew how to push us and get the best out of us.

Um, and then for me, if I was being an annoying teenager or whatever, you know, it's kind of.

Like, not ignore me, but just be like, okay, whatever, like, that's what you're doing.

I'm not going to coach you right now.

So he was quite good.

I think like, uh, like the relationship was always, you're my dad.

And I think he was really good at not, um, he never put pressure on us and things like that.

So I think that was a huge part of it.

Um, and then when we moved up here, it was always like, if, if you don't enjoy it.

If it doesn't work out kind of thing, like I'm always here and you can always come home.

And I think knowing that made it easier being up here as well, especially for that first year.

Um, and then I guess also, cause we both trusted him as a coach as well, made it really good because we could always rely on him for bits of advice and things like that.

So there was like a shift from day to day, but otherwise it was like.

He's still our dad, like was and always is kind of thing, you know?

Yeah.

It's really nice.

How did it feel to put on your Olympic blazer?

And I imagine you got the oversized Qantas boarding pass ahead of Rio in 2016.

Thinking back to that little kid who idolized Susie O'Neill at the Sydney 2000 Olympics to think that you were getting on the plane to head over to Brazil.

Uh, definitely very surreal.

And.

I guess just special because finally my brother Dave and I were both doing it.

Um, cause he had been to London and I was over there in the stands watching, and then this time we were going to be on that team together.

So that was very exciting.

Um, and then had my family there in the stands.

Yeah.

It was, it was an exciting experience just to know that we were going to be heading over to the Olympics.

It's pretty crazy to think that I even like when I was prepping for this episode, I was almost shocked that Rio was your first one.

Like I think because we know how successful you've been.

It's kind of weird to think that 2016 was your first one, but in your Olympic debut, you were the most successful swimmer at Rio.

You brought home one gold, two silver and a bronze medal.

What did that feel like after dealing and learning from the London 2012 disappointment to coming home as the most successful swimmer there?

Definitely like a shock.

I never would have thought that I'd come away with those kinds of medals.

Yeah.

And it's not really something I even think about now though.

So, um, yeah.

And then even that week alone, like there was a lot of different like roller coasters of emotions times, like the first night we won the gold in the relay.

And so that was super exciting.

And then the next day I was disappointed with my hundred fly final.

And then the next day I had to get up again and do a 200 freestyle.

And then the night after that, like, I mean, I just thought I wasn't swimming well.

Um, and the night after that did my 200 free final and then got a bronze medal.

So it was like really all over.

Yeah.

So it was a lot of things that like kind of showed me that I can like bounce back from disappointment quickly, turn it around and refocus for what's next.

Um, so yeah, it taught me a lot of lessons, but yeah, at the end of the week I was definitely in shock that I came away with what I did.

It is quite a unique position you guys are in as swimmers because you often have multiple events and you do have to bounce back.

Even like the turnaround from heats to finals and different events.

Like what is that process like to go through that?

Yeah.

It takes a lot of experience.

I think, um, cause you might have a disappointment.

You might not swim as well as you thought you would in the heat or the semi, um, but you still make it through and you've got to turn it around and keep your confidence up for, to get the most out of yourself in a final.

Um, and then say you don't swim well in the final and then turn it around for whatever the next race is going to be.

So it definitely takes a lot of experience, um, and practice leaving the good or the bad behind and refocusing on what's next.

Um, but yeah, you've definitely got to be able to leave it.

Like in Tokyo, my program was really busy and if I had like one, a hundred freestyle, for instance, I had to come back that night and do the heat of the 50 freestyle.

So just almost containing that excitement because it's emotionally draining on either end of the spectrum really.

So it's like containing it till I can let it all out.

And just the way it is.

Yeah, it must be a really bizarre thing.

And looking at Tokyo, because it was in the middle of COVID, it had already been postponed, no crowds.

Could you guys sense though, the way the Australian public were behind you as a group?

Because it felt almost like because people were stuck in their lounge rooms, it felt like people were even more connected to you guys, especially as swimmers starting out so successfully in Tokyo.

Yeah, it was definitely very unique and very special.

Uh, I didn't have, I didn't.

It was my phone.

I didn't like use social media or anything during that week.

So I didn't know the full extent, but gradually across the week, you could definitely feel it, um, through like all the interviews that we were doing and the journalists and things were telling us about the excitement back home and things like that.

So it probably wasn't till the end of the week, pretty much when we're getting on the plane and then spending two weeks in the quarantine that we realized how crazy.

It was like with everyone watching and all the support that we got, but you could definitely feel, you could definitely feel the support even during that lockdown, weird Olympics.

It must've been a bizarre thing.

Like you talked about the fact that you have to almost swallow the emotion to get ready for the next event, either that following morning or that night.

So then you go through that, you finish your week, have all this success, and then you go to lockdown.

Like, was that just the most bizarre mix of emotions?

It was definitely very bizarre.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was actually really challenging because really from like the first morning of finals, we won and broke the world record in the relay.

And so it's from that moment all the way through the week that like you're having to contain yourself and then maybe not hitting a time that you thought you might.

And then having to come back, bring yourself back to level, not too low kind of thing after that.

So just the whole.

I think it was eight days all up as well as just the lead in all that excitement and nerves and things.

And then getting on a plane, flying back to into Darwin, going into your own little room.

It was very strange, but it was actually really hard.

I found it really hard because I couldn't.

I felt like I need to be proud of.

I should be proud of what I've done.

But I almost couldn't feel that sense of.

Pride or like.

Sense of achievement, I guess, because.

You're just in this little room.

I had my family and stuff on FaceTime and things.

But yeah, it was just very strange feeling.

And then by the time I got out, I was then back into lockdown as well because I was went into Wollongong with they were all in lockdown.

So it was obviously really nice and exciting seeing my family.

But I was emotionally.

Drained, so.

It took me a while to like.

Feel any of that excitement as well, which I also felt.

Strange for because I felt like, you know, everyone's so excited for me, everyone's so happy and proud.

I should be feeling that, too.

But I'm not kind of thing.

So it was very confusing.

It would have been a really isolating time, and I think.

Watching on, it was that feeling of seeing.

You guys all go into lockdown and I almost was like wishing and hoping because the news like move so quickly.

Right.

It's almost like I or I wanted that to be preserved.

What you guys had all achieved over there so that you could come back into normal life and be celebrated in a normal way, I guess.

Well, the good thing was we did get to watch the second half of the Olympics on TV.

So that was like a way to keep it alive, I suppose, for us.

Yeah, it was definitely a weird experience.

Looking at your performance, because you kind of skipped over that part.

So you won four gold medals and three bronze medals.

You broke world records and Olympic medals along the way.

You won more medals at an Olympics than any other female swimmer ever, joint most medals with the Soviet gymnast.

Your 11 Olympic medals overall make you the most successful Australian Olympian ever.

You talked about that confusion between not really feeling like you could celebrate.

Yeah.

In a way.

Have you had time to reflect since then?

Definitely a lot of time since then.

It did take me a while, though.

But I think the thing that makes me probably able to like feel at the most would be there's this video that of my family watching my 100 freestyle.

And so watching them like being all nervous and then the race starts and they're cheering for me and then like seeing their excitement.

When I do touch the wall, that's probably the video for me that like makes me really feel and realize what I've done.

Just because like they're my biggest supporters and they get it all.

And yeah, and I always know that they love me like no matter what I do.

But just seeing their excitement was is something that's like really special to me.

Yeah.

You talked about the fact that they kind of see everything.

I think for me as an athlete, I always get really emotional.

When I think about my family being a big part of my not necessarily like my drive and my motivation, but they do.

They ride all the highs and lows, right?

Like the public just get to see you kind of at world champs and trying to qualify and then at the Olympics.

But there's so much in between that your close circle actually ride with you.

And so that's why it's really special in those moments to have your family to celebrate the good times, too.

Yeah, definitely.

They definitely see all the ups and downs.

They see you.

They see you when you're doubting yourself and see you when you're doing really well.

But yeah, it's those hard things that they go through with you.

And I've been lucky that they've all, especially my brother, because he only retired from swimming in 20 and I'll start at 2021.

And he had to retire because of injury.

But he's he's been able to give me so much like advice and support.

And I guess just having been through it all.

Very recently, like he's been a huge support.

So I'm able to like talk to him about all my doubts or when things aren't going well.

And yeah, it's just it's really they're the ones that like I really enjoy celebrating with after.

You've talked about the fact that Paris will be your last Olympics.

How did you come to make a decision like that?

It was kind of an easy decision because I've actually said that after every Olympics.

Yeah, we don't actually know if it's true.

Yeah, like I after Rio, I thought I packed up my house in Brisbane that I was renting and put all my stuff in storage because I was like, well, I won't be coming back here.

I'll go over to Rio and then maybe move on to the next part of my life kind of thing.

And then next thing I'm back in Brisbane training again, getting my stuff out of storage.

And then I did the same thing before Tokyo packed up my house.

And I think also because I know I'm going to have a big break after that and I'll probably go back to Luangong and things like that.

So and I think before Tokyo was like a COVID thing as well.

Didn't know when I'd be going back to Queensland.

So but I definitely thought I'd be stopping after that.

But then I guess the three year turnaround is what kept me going for these Paris Olympics.

And yeah, I mean, I'm turning 30 next month as well.

So I think another four years.

I don't think I have that in me.

It's a long time.

It's a long time.

You kind of it seems like it's this idea of getting enough from the sport in a way, like when you're starting to pack up your house, like this is enough.

Like I'm content with this.

Do you think there's something in Paris that would make you feel like this is enough?

I'm ready to sign off.

I think their feelings that I'll feel like once I do decide to.

Not so.

Because I think as athletes, you're always like searching for what's next and how can I like every day training and every race you do, you're always thinking, OK, well, how can I improve that?

What can I do better?

And.

Like, even when I won the hundred freestyle in Tokyo, my coach was like, that's great, but you could have done this.

Give me a break.

Yeah, like, oh, you're back 50, you know, we wanted that actually at this time and you only did this time and you did this time two nights ago when you're back 50, like, so obviously, like, it wasn't that he was super excited, but.

You're just always looking at how can I do it better?

And so.

Having that ingrained in us from a really young age, I think being able to completely reflect on.

My career and be proud of it.

And I think their feelings that will come when I do decide to stop.

Can you talk us through what it feels like and what's going through your head as you kind of walk out onto the pool deck?

I feel like it's quite an iconic moment of of the swimming meets when you're walking out, getting ready.

What is going through your head?

I'm usually pretty.

I try to remain pretty calm when I'm walking out for races.

I'm usually just thinking about what I need to do in that very moment.

I'm usually pretty present.

Thinking about my race plan, not thinking too much about the outcome.

If my family's there.

If I know where they're sitting, like give them a wave kind of thing.

But, yeah, I'm usually my mind's usually pretty calm and present, I think.

Especially walking out.

Yeah.

Just waiting to get in the pool, really.

Just get over it, don't we?

Yeah.

What does it feel like to be a part of a team?

Obviously, individual sport.

Well.

Realize that the team component of it, but a team with the legacy of the Australian Dolphins team.

It's definitely a special thing to be a part of.

And I think because I loved swimming from a really young age and watched it on TV and things like that,

I definitely appreciate the history that we have in it.

So that's always been something that has inspired me and something I've been able to think about a lot as well when I am representing Australia now.

Thinking about like, like, I can't believe that I'm that I've done what I've done similar to the people that I looked up to when I was, you know, five years old or 12 years old, things like that.

So I definitely appreciate and like, I'm grateful that I had those people to look up to and inspire me and just like kind of lead the way for the swimmers who are doing really well now.

Yeah.

Because there is so much, we've had so much success in swimming and at the Olympics in swimming.

So it's a, it's a really special thing to be a part of.

Is your headspace different when you're preparing for your individual events versus the relay events?

Is there a sense of like a bit more calmness that comes with the relay or is it more pressure because there's other people depending on you?

No, it's just more of a feeling of like, it's more of a fun feeling, I think, for relays because you go into the marching area with the other three.

And we're often just chatting about anything but swimming and anything but what we're about to do.

So it's definitely more enjoyable than an individual race.

There's a feeling of pressure and expectation to some degree because you want to do well for the other three and you want to do well for the country.

And, you know, we hold our relays very high.

So I guess there's that kind of pressure and expectation.

But I think that's fun side kind of overtakes that.

Yeah, for sure.

I saw Anna Mears the other day at the launch event for the new Olympic uniforms.

And she reminded me of a question that I asked her when I had her on the podcast.

And she said she still asks people to this day.

And I was like, that's a good reminder because I quite like that question.

And it's what is your favorite failure?

My favorite failure is probably missing the London team.

Because I am not sure.

I'm not sure if I would still be swimming or I'm not sure if I would have even made it through to Rio or Tokyo if I had made that London team, because at that point, all I wanted to do was go to the Olympics and with where I was, like, I hadn't probably grown up enough, I don't know, experienced enough or to like, I might have just gone to the Olympics and be like, OK, I've been now.

I've achieved my dream.

I've achieved my goal.

I can stop.

I can stop because I hadn't learned those lessons of like dealing with the pressure and dealing with, I guess, being able to continue on pushing myself, like realizing there's parts of it that you're not going to enjoy, but there's parts of it that I loved.

Like, I hadn't really learned that yet.

So, yeah, I might have stopped and then not continued on.

So I'd say that's probably my favorite failure.

Yeah.

Even though it sucked at the time.

Like looking back, it's probably the best.

It's happened to me.

Yeah.

It's a cool question.

Cool answer.

Sorry.

Discipline versus motivation.

I think I've seen you talk about it before.

How do you look at that as a swimmer?

You definitely have to be very disciplined.

Definitely can't rely on motivation.

I mean, I think if I relied on motivation, I wouldn't still be swimming now because I've been swimming for so long.

Yeah, it's just you need a lot of discipline.

And I think that's something I learned when I was.

I was really young because my parents never pushed me to turn up to training or push me to do anything, really.

It was always up to me.

So it's like I learned that self-discipline really young and they always like instilled in all of us like that you had to work hard for what you wanted.

And if you commit to something, you need to commit to it.

But.

It was always up to us to do that.

And, you know, getting out of bed in the morning.

I had to do that myself.

I didn't.

You know, I couldn't.

Then they would never force me to get out of bed for training.

So, yeah, I think that discipline is something I learned really young and something.

But, yeah, I wouldn't be where I am without it.

Is there someone who's had a really big impact on you and your career?

Probably lots of people, so many people like my parents, my coach, I've worked with a sports scientist, was a sports scientist, but now I work with her a lot on skills and I've been working with her since I was 15, maybe even younger, and we've become really good friends.

She's had a huge impact on my swimming and my life, really.

She was there when I wanted to quit swimming at 15 or 16 and then again when I was 17 and then, you know, all throughout and then all throughout the ups and downs that I've had over the last 10 or 15 years of swimming and teams and things like that and the ups and downs of both personally and in swimming.

So she's definitely had a huge impact on my career.

And, like, she's kept it enjoyable as well and been there in those, like, high-pressure moments and kept it, I suppose, in perspective for me as well and kept me calm and helped me to, because I'm definitely also very critical of myself, definitely a lot less now than I used to be.

But she's also been able to help me reel that in and, like, see the good in what I'm doing and things like that.

Have you learned to be kinder to yourself?

Yeah, definitely, compared to when I was younger.

It's probably these last couple of years I've probably gone backwards a bit just because as I've gotten older and maybe putting more pressure on myself again, I am more critical in, like, comparing myself to the athlete I was when I was 21.

And, you know, when you're 21, 22, 23, like, you bounce back from training session to training session so quickly.

So I still want to be at the top of my game now.

And I am comparing myself a lot to that younger athlete that I was.

So she helps me rein that in as well and see the good in what I'm doing and, like, be like, you're actually at a really good level.

You're actually doing things better than you.

You're actually doing certain things better than you were when you were 22 kind of thing.

So she helps me see that, which is definitely what I need at the moment.

There's an awesome book by Malcolm Gladwell called Outliers.

And he has a range of different theories and he talks about the 10,000-hour rule to become an expert or elite at what you do.

And he also discusses this idea of opportunities for a lot of people in different industries but elite athletes as well.

I was chatting to Dad the other day.

I was saying that I was having you on the podcast and we were talking about this idea of there's kind of, like, the talent, hard work and opportunity are the three really big things that often make an athlete the very best at what they do.

What do you think is on top of that that has made you our greatest Olympian of all time?

Persistence, I would say, and self-belief, I think, are two big ones.

You definitely can't.

You can't do anything without self-belief, and especially in those, like, high-pressure moments when it's, like, you need to perform now, especially Olympics comes around once every four years kind of thing.

Yeah, you need to have that self-belief that you are capable of doing what you set out to do.

And then, yeah, persistence, like, bouncing back from when you don't perform how you want it to perform.

Yeah.

Yeah, just continuing on.

I think they're two big things that come into being a great athlete.

If Paris is your last Olympics, I don't know if I believe you or not, but if it is, what does happiness and contentment post-swimming look like for you?

I think, I guess it's just knowing that I put my all into it and having no regrets on that front.

Because I think if you can turn up...

And no matter how you go, knowing that you'd put everything you could into preparing, both mentally and physically, and then there's nothing really to be disappointed with because you did everything that you could do.

So I think that's what will bring me contentment over my swimming career.

And I know up till today, like, I've put in everything that I can.

And I've...

Worked as hard as I can and focused on all the small things, you know, all the little details and things like that.

So I think that's what will bring me contentment over my career.

And what is your career going to look like post-swimming?

Have you planned it out or not yet?

I'm not sure yet.

I'll do nothing for a little bit.

Yeah, good.

Have no routine for a bit, I think, will be good for me.

But, yeah, I'll work it out as it comes.

Yeah, cool.

Thank you so much for your time today, having a chat.

It's been incredible to learn more about you and the way that you've kind of gone away and come back on multiple occasions

and the drive that you have.

Cannot wait to watch you compete in Paris.

Always love cheering you on.

And, yeah, thanks so much again, Emma.

Thanks so much.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you got something out of this episode, I would absolutely love it if you could send it on to one person who you think might enjoy it.

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