178 Lucinda Price Inside The World Of Froomes Her Creative Process A Candid Discussion On Body Image

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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.

Listener Price, welcome to Straight Talk.

Thank you for having me.

You're welcome. I actually follow you on Instagram.

I saw when you followed me, I thought, I've got to get on this podcast.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And of course, one of the things I got to know

about this name, Froome's, comes from like, tell me about the name Froome's. What the

hell does that mean?

What does it mean? Yeah, it's my mum's maiden name.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So you're just going by your mum's maiden name?

Pretty much. But I thought, who has a maiden name?

When I was growing up, I thought it was the ugliest name.

Boy, you use it enough. I mean, it's Froome's world, of course. But one of the things I

want to talk to you about is your book. So we're not going to start there, though. Hopefully

we'll evolve down there, because these conversations can go anywhere. What are you drinking? Matcha

tea, are you?

Yes. I've had one.

I have had matcha, but it's a bit bitter for me.

You can get used to it.

Is that a health thing?

You get the slow-release caffeine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I went through a phase of not drinking coffee, which is very unlike me. I give in to all

of my vices, but I thought that's kind of something different. And it's nice.

Did you get the next door?

Mm.

They make matcha tea next door. I'm going to try it. I'm definitely going to try it.

Because I was reading about it, how just from a health point of view, it's better for you

instead of drinking coffee. Like, I'm a coffee. I drink too many coffees. I drink like three,

four coffees a day. Easy. My first one is about quarter to five in the morning.

Oh, really?

Then that's at home.

Yeah. So like literally when I first wake up, like within 10 minutes, I'm jamming a little

like espresso down my gob. And I know it's not good for me, but like, otherwise, you know,

I can't see, I can't walk, I can't move. And, you know, it's a bit off topic. Sorry. It was

slightly off topic, but nonetheless. So I want to talk to you about, what I want to talk about is

the origins of why you wrote the book. But before we talk about the book, can we go,

and also the book's title, before we go there, let's just go back a little bit.

What happened in your life that made you feel as though you should write a book?

Like, and what are those events?

Yeah. Well, I always wanted to write a book. And I've said before, I think it's like part of being

someone who likes to express themselves. I think a lot of people have this desire or this kind of

dream to write a book. It's lucky that I have worked as a writer.

So I had the skills to be able to do it. In what capacity were you working as a

writer for 10 years? Always online. So the first thing I ever

wrote was for a friend's website that she created. And it was pretty much just her and I that would

write articles. The first thing I ever wrote was about my dad, like going down the street on a

rolly chair from hard rubbish. So I've always kind of... What is that? From hard rubbish? What is

hard rubbish? You know what hard rubbish is? No, what's hard rubbish? Oh, that's what we call,

like when you put the...

Junk out from your house.

Yeah.

What do you call it?

I don't know. Junk.

You've never done it?

I have done it. Yeah, no, I totally have done it. But like, because you see the people driving

around, especially where I live, picking up good bits of good piece of furniture. And I used to

think, oh, that's cool that people are going to go sort of recycle it, et cetera, or reuse it.

But it's called hard rubbish. So your dad is at some stage, is it a real deal? Your dad at some

stage just found a chair with rollers on it or something and sat on it and rolled down the hill?

Yeah. And I remember it so...

Is he a larrikin?

Yeah. He features in a lot of my content, maybe not as much anymore because he's down in Victoria.

But I just never forget, like he was on this roller chair and all these kids from the

neighbourhood were running down this big long street with him. But it's one of those things

where I don't know if I'm remembering it correctly or embellishing it.

But you wrote a story about that?

Yeah. So I guess my point being, I've always kind of weaved personal stories into the things that

I've written. Not so much to...

Talk about myself all the time, though people might think that I do that. It's more to, I guess,

connect with people and yeah, make it entertaining.

Let's just take that one story. Is the purpose of that though, is to tell the story about what

you saw your dad doing? Like actually I'm storytelling, in your case, or is it to build

a connection between the people you want to tell the story to?

It's probably a bit of both. I'd honestly say it's more of column A. I've always just wanted

to entertain. I want to...

I want you to read something and enjoy it and enjoy yourself. And part of that is like learning

how to get into a story quickly and keep people's attention. For me, anything I ever do is about

grabbing someone's attention and maintaining it for as long as I can.

Yeah, you... I mean, I look at your stuff on Instagram, as I just said a moment ago,

on social media. You are a pretty expressy person, naturally. Even when you walked in this room,

you can sort of feel an energy. As you sat down, there's an energy there.

Is your expressiveness, is your outlet in relation to your expressiveness,

social media and all your writing? Or is your expressiveness your brand?

Ooh. Well, I guess it's always... I've always had an expressive face from the very beginning.

I can tell. Look at... Because that's the way you look, the way you move your face,

your eyes.

Everything about you. I can just... There's a... You're like an actress.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm lying all the time. So yeah, I guess that's just inbuilt into my

personality is to be, I guess, enthusiastic is what I would call it. And expressive. And yeah,

part of the expression, I think the one that I find the most rewarding because you have to

use skill for it is the writing. Whereas I think social media, just the way that those

platforms are designed, creativity isn't always at the forefront of that.

How do you mean?

For instance, on Instagram, I'm a lot more strategic than when I write. When I write,

I can kind of go a bit more on tangents.

You can wander around a little bit.

Yeah. Whereas Instagram, it's all very visual to keep people's attention with the algorithm. You

kind of have to put on your story, for instance, a photo where you look pretty and then a photo

from far away and then some text, but you have to wrap the text in photos. It's a whole different

beast.

Much more strategic then.

Yeah.

So writing...

Then to some extent is nearly a little bit of an escape because, you know, like being on social

media, like you are and you're there a lot. I mean, you work pretty hard, which is, and it's

always going to be on brand or what people expect of you as to your brand. It's quite

constraining. Whereas writing by the sound of things, it allows you to escape.

Yeah.

You know, it's a bit more relaxed. You can just move and move.

Maneuver yourself around the place. So is your book an escape for you?

Yeah, absolutely. Because of the format, it was a challenge because I couldn't use photos. I didn't

want to do listicles. I wanted to challenge myself to write something as if I'm someone

who studied writing. But I started writing on the internet. So obviously when I started,

you can add photos and videos and GIFs and emojis. Whereas with a book,

I'm with the expressiveness. I wanted to put emojis in there, but you couldn't. So I had to

find a way to express myself in the way that emojis would be used. I'm a massive emoji fan.

In the book?

No, but I was very tempted.

In words?

In words, in text. You should see my text there, Latin, because I find it quite funny and I like

that. But yeah, I think the writing is definitely an escape in the sense that you don't have that

pressure to be on and play by the social media platform's rules because every single one has a

different rule.

Yeah. So, and most people don't realize that. I think most people who look at social media,

who aren't in social media, but as opposed to more an observer of social media, they're not

looking at, they're just looking at what appeals to them. And of course, social media works out

what appeals to you and starts feeding you the same stuff. They're like, you know, my social

media, my Instagram page and the guys who run it, one of them sitting over here, must wonder to

themselves when my feed is always jujitsu stuff. Like I get like so many, it's worked out, I like

jujitsu stuff. I get like so many, it's worked out, I like jujitsu stuff. I get like so many, it's

jujitsu stuff. And it just keeps feeding me this stuff time after time after time. And I know the

guys are probably thinking, so what's Mark looking at all the time? But it's very clever. So you have

to be clever too in terms of building your presence. And is your presence on social media,

is that a business decision? Is there a business around that for you?

Yeah, 100%. I think when I started, I started my Instagram when I was working as a journalist at a

young media company.

And so my Instagram was purely an outlet. I would sometimes post work videos, but mostly it was just

this kind of place to be silly and post whatever I wanted and be really absurdist. Whereas when I

lost my job at this youth platform, I didn't have a website. I mean, I got a sub stack, which is

where I have my newsletter, which is kind of where the books began, but I didn't really have

an alternate platform. So now my Instagram is definitely the one place on the internet where

I put the most stuff. I'm promoting my book, I'm promoting like paid partnerships, but I'm also

maintaining things that I'm passionate about, but I'm also very strategic with what I

don't put there. Because I think it's very easy to start treating it like a diary,

which I don't want to do.

Yeah. So that's interesting. So you have paid partnerships, basically what you're saying,

there's money involved, which is important. You've got to make money. Because otherwise,

especially if you're spending all the money, you're not going to make money.

The amount of time you spend on social media and social media takes a lot longer

than everybody knows. I mean, it's just much more sort of intense, just the preparation,

the editing, the whole thing. Therefore, you have to make a dollar out of it because it's

your time you're putting into it. In your sense, in your terms, you're telling us about what though

on your social media. So what are you trying to build your audience off the back of? Because

if you don't have an audience, you don't have any commerce involved. If no one looks at your

stuff, then the agencies will pay you money to do partnerships. They won't give you any money.

They'll say, well, it's tough, like you haven't got a big enough audience. To build an audience,

you've got to have a message. So what is your message? What are your messages? What do they

sort of fit around?

Yes. My message always is so simple. It's to entertain.

I don't think there's any higher idea at play. I don't want to pontificate. I'm not here to

teach you a lesson. I'm here as like an escape. And I try and make things that I find funny.

And that's kind of what, that's a contribution that I bring. And it suits me. That's what I

got into it for. Sometimes when I'm feeling a bit uninspired or it's feeling a bit laborious,

and I think, oh, why did I get Instagram in the first place? I didn't have social media before.

I started doing this job. Like I didn't have Instagram in year 12, in uni, mostly because I

was like too worried about the following count. Like I didn't want to follow more people than

followed me. Cause I've always kind of been like.

When they look at the top of the profile.

Yeah. Yeah.

You follow 10,000, you have, you follow 10,000, you have 3,000 following you.

Yeah. I can't be doing that. So social media before I began creating on it was a source of

anxiety. And to be honest.

Oh, really?

Yeah. I think so.

You got anxious about it?

Yeah. Cause I, I've always, yeah.

I kind of get anxious. Oh, does it look like I've got enough friends? This, that. I've always

kind of been very cognizant of where I stand in the social pecking order, which is part of the book

as well. But yeah, I try and remind myself, I didn't get into this to swipe. I'm just here to

create things. And that's mostly what I do.

One of the things I thought you might've been doing is using comedy to talk about issues.

No.

Cause you are, you're a comedian. I mean, you are, you are naturally a funny person and you,

you know, you, you, you, you do, do you do standup comedy?

No, I don't do standup. I'll do sometimes like a cabaret style performance and I'm open to doing

it, but I wouldn't do like open mic or getting up every night at 10 to do a set. It's not my.

But, but, but you are naturally comedic in what you do. You like, you like to take the piss out

of things and sort of be funny. In fact, you take the piss out of yourself a bit.

Yeah.

Yeah. You don't mind sort of, um, using yourself as the, you're the medium through which other

people might have a laugh.

Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. Well, does that ever sort of put, are you putting yourself down? Is that,

I don't understand that. Like, uh, I mean, a lot of people do it, like don't get me wrong. Um,

but how does that feel? Like, uh, like putting yourself down?

Well, I don't see it as putting myself down. I think.

Well, making yourself the subject of the piss take. Some people might see it that way.

I think typically the things that I'm taking the piss out of are thoughts that I've had,

not so much. I don't berate myself or make myself smaller on social media. I don't find

that funny. I don't find self conscious kind of humor. It's not really my style. I always,

the way that I approach it is like, and whether or not I'm doing this right now, I'm not sure

because book promotion has taken precedence. Probably everyone's probably like sick of

it, but I have a book to promote.

Where is your book by the way? Did you bring it in?

No, I didn't. See what I mean? I've been too focused on my social media.

We will talk about it and we'll bring it. We'll get someone to bring the book in in

a second. Did you bring one along?

No.

You didn't bring a book along?

I know. Look, I had a whole launch in Melbourne with just family and friends.

But this is Sydney. What's wrong with you?

That's what I'm saying is I always forget to bring it, but it's in the room with us.

Yeah. I'm wearing yellow. That's part of the cover. It's yellow.

The cover's yellow. Because I was going to just flash up there in front of the camera

and say, buy this book and I'll get you to sign it. If you don't mind sending me a signed

one, please.

Clearly the book's an important part.

It's an important part of your life. And I did talk to you about a moment ago about,

and I did ask you a moment ago, and you haven't quite answered me yet. What are the things

that happened in your life that you inspired you, either that or motivated you to put into

this book? So like body image, for example, those sorts of things.

Yes.

Talk to me about that.

So I never thought that I would write anything personal. Like I said, I'm here to entertain.

I want to make it about my internal thought processes that people have also experienced.

That's when I'm funniest.

I think it's when I'm writing about something that I think, oh, maybe no one else thinks

like that. Turns out everyone thinks the same. So the book is kind of an extension of that,

but I focused on my experience of an eating disorder and cosmetic surgery.

You had an eating disorder?

Yes.

In which way? You ate too much or not enough?

What they kind of see nowadays is that kind of both, to be honest, but it really became

a problem when I was anorexic or I had anorexia rather.

Wow.

I call someone an anorexic. And that was when it tipped over. And that's because of

processes where if you get too hungry, your brain stops working. So that kind of eating

disorder, I think, gets a lot of attention because of that reason and because there's

a lot of physical changes. But then I went into, I had bulimia before that. So that's

often-

And the difference between the two, bulimia is the one where you go and puke up all the

time after you eat.

Yeah. Or you can do other, and I won't get into them, but you can do other kind of purging

behaviors, exercise a lot.

Things to mitigate eating. And it's often not necessary and it's very cyclic. You stay

in a cycle.

And when you were anorexic, do you mean you were anorexic looking or you were just under

weight? I mean, how slim or skinny did you get, so to speak?

The way that they diagnose it, part of the reason they diagnose it is when you're BMI

is a certain level. But now there are, you can be a higher weight and you can be the

weight that I am now and be classified as anorexic.

It's definitely broadened because not everyone looks the same. I think we've got this very

specific idea of what someone with anorexia looks like. And then heaps of people go undiagnosed

and it goes up and down. But yeah, I was definitely, yeah, I was unwell and it was visible and

physical. And I wanted to write about that because it was very obvious and it should

have been very obvious to people, but it wasn't obvious to psychologists that I saw or doctors,

psychiatrists even that I saw.

During the anorexic period, you were seeing them not as an anorexia patient, but as just

another patient. You were seeing it for some other reason, like a mental health reason perhaps?

Yeah, yeah. Because I was depressed. And I thought that in my mind, I thought I've got the perfect

body now. I was very aware of how thin I was, but I thought I look great. But I feel so depressed.

I feel so hollow and like, I don't want to do anything. Nothing means anything. I don't have

friends. I'm spending so much time alone.

This can't be related to the fact I'm not eating enough food. It's just something else is going on.

Can you just help me out here? Because I know this, like I love my food. So I just can't sort

of imagine what's going on. What starts off this, let's call it this anorexic period.

And I don't mean becoming anorexic, like at the end of it, but what starts off this process of

not eating enough nutrition, for example, like in a broad sense. But is it an event in your life?

What was it an event? Or you thought you're watching social media, you thought I'm not

skinny enough? Or were you unhealthily overweight? What was it?

No, I was always like straight size. I was never teased for my weight. I never had an issue with

eating or food prior to being kind of 20 or 21. It started when I moved to Sydney. So I moved

from Melbourne to Sydney for work.

Sydney can do that.

Yeah.

I think that was part of it, to be honest. It was this beautiful city, lots of hills. I lived

alone for the first time without my parents. So I had to learn how to cook myself food.

And I had this idea that when I'm in Sydney, I'm a whole new woman. I'm old now. I'm an adult.

21, did you say?

Yeah, I was 23 by the time I moved to Sydney. And I felt so adult. I guess it tipped into

something that would be diagnosable. The way that I describe it, there's not one event.

You kind of slide into it.

And then you start sliding and then the slide goes faster and faster and faster.

And it hits a point when you aren't eating enough that your brain clicks over. It's kind of how

they describe it.

When you say clicks over, like stops working properly or?

That, but it's more you kind of tip into. So prior to developing full on anorexia,

I was bulimic. So I would do what we were describing. And that had a different contour

because I was still getting kind of enough.

Nutrients. Whereas when I didn't get enough nutrients with the anorexia, it's just like a

self-fulfilling prophecy. You don't get hungry anymore because when you're not eating enough,

you're like, there's a particular hormone that I can't.

Grow on.

No. It's not serotonin, but it's one of the kind of big ones that isn't thought of.

Yes. Yeah, somewhat. So with the dopamine, when you're not eating enough, it spikes. So then when

you start eating, you're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not

eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not

eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not

eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not eating enough. You're not

It actually goes down. And that's why they speak of the hunger high and feeling-

Hunger high.

Yeah. It's like runner's high. It's kind of a similar sensation in my experience. This is going

to definitely need a trigger warning.

Yeah, totally.

But yeah, it's kind of a funny thing. And I think a lot of people don't understand,

how could you, aren't you hungry all the time? I thought, no, no, no. If I eat, it's uncomfortable.

Yeah. That is actually my question. Weren't you hungry? And what would compel you not to eat?

But what you're saying is that your own body actually stopped you from eating

because you got a high from it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it rewarded you for not eating.

Yep.

And I thought that I wasn't hungry and I took a lot of pride in that.

I'd go home with my parents and they'd be eating normal food and I'd think,

oh, I'm not even hungry and I kind of felt really up my own ass about it.

But, yeah.

How could they be eating?

I'm not even hungry.

Yeah, yeah.

You see, like I can control myself.

Exactly.

I can control myself.

I thought I was better than people.

Yeah.

I thought I'd unlocked this cheat code.

I thought, oh, back when I was eating a normal amount of food, what a mess I was.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's mad.

And what did your parents say when they saw you not eating

or actually diminishing in front of them in terms of physical?

I think at the start they didn't think much of it.

I think they just thought, oh, Lucinda's in Sydney now.

And I had lost weight before that.

Like, for instance, when I was 17, my boyfriend broke up with me

and I just was so sad that I couldn't.

So they were used to my body fluctuating somewhat within a certain range.

But I remember there was an instance where I came home

and mum picked me up from the airport.

And on the way home I took my jumper off and she just went,

oh, you're not losing too much weight, are you?

And she had never commented on my weight before.

She was very, very careful not to do that.

I later learnt it's because she had experienced an eating disorder

throughout her whole 20s.

And the way that it went away, she would just say to me,

something clicked and I didn't have it anymore.

So she had kind of somewhat of an understanding

of what my body was doing.

What my brain was going through.

But she was at a loss as to what to do about it.

So what broke the cycle?

Was it you or something?

It was a confluence of a lot of things.

I think it stopped.

I started getting better when I was 25.

Wow.

That many years?

Two years?

Yes, probably three.

Three years?

Two or three years, yeah.

But I think the real eating issue started probably when I was 20.

So probably five years.

Then at a couple of years, I probably didn't fully recover until I was 28.

I turned 25 and your prefrontal cortex developing is a really big part of it.

So maturation is something that can help a lot of people get out of eating disorders

and disordered eating.

Funnily enough, I think it was having a really great relationship

with someone who I knew liked me, not because of my body.

And he was a friend of mine first and I'd never kind of experienced that.

I think I'd always had relationships that had a very specific,

power dynamic that was typically male-female,

whereas this kind of felt like an equal partnership.

And I felt like this person liked me because I was funny.

We had a lot of fun together.

So that helped me kind of get out of my body.

Did previous relationships, though, were based on physicality?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

Looking back, I think so, yeah.

My early 20s and my teenage years.

I write about that somewhat in the book, but I don't get too much into it.

So maturation, having a really beautiful relationship that wasn't about

the weight.

I looked COVID and having a lot of time to spend with my friends

and pulling back a bit off work because for me the eating disorder

was very much related to working in the media and thinking I had

to be a certain way to be taken seriously or listened to as a woman.

And I still think that there is part of it that I'm sure it helped

because for a lot of people the thin ideal is so interlocked

with being successful and people see you as very thin.

Again, they say your willpower.

People say, look at your willpower.

How do you do it every day?

You're eating chocolate.

Or whatever.

We're all going to eat croissants because they're in the kitchen,

especially in media.

Yeah.

But you're all right.

How come you're so strong?

Yeah.

And that's a reward in itself.

Yeah.

Because it sort of confirms or affirms in your own brain that I'm doing the right

thing here because everybody else is socializing.

Everyone's telling me the answer, telling me this now.

Because I noticed in the brief that you work with Flex.

Yes.

Yeah.

She's also been on the show.

Flex Mummy.

Mommy.

Flex.

Flex, my good friend.

She went to Melbourne a couple of years ago.

She's still in Melbourne?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So were you doing a radio show?

What were you doing with them?

Yeah, we were doing a radio show and a podcast.

By the time we did that, I was very much on the way to recovering

and probably had already recovered.

So, yeah.

Were you still going out with the dude, the guy?

No.

So, like, I just don't know how you, like, I can imagine,

I can't imagine how someone could,

could change their eating strategies.

For example, I could not change my eating strategy from where I am now, right?

And whether it's to eat more or eat less, I just got an eating strategy.

If your eating strategy is to eat less and not eat hardly at all,

I would imagine it's extremely hard to turn your brain around.

Like, get your brain to make that change.

Especially when, as you just mentioned, I didn't know this,

but you were getting rewarded with various hormonal releases in the brain,

sort of getting, you know, reward for not eating.

And how do you go about it?

Do you go and see a psychiatrist?

Does your mum help you?

I mean, what's the process?

Who grabs you by the hand and says, come on, let's go down this way and we'll sort it?

The only person who can grab your hand is yourself.

Yeah.

That's not to diminish the help that psychologists and psychiatrists can give you.

However, I do think that a lot of the experts that I saw didn't understand eating disorders.

That's a problem across the board.

There are specialists.

And I worked very closely with the Inside Out Institute,

which is specifically for eating disorders.

And I think for people who are experiencing disordered eating or stuck in some sort of cycle,

it's so important that you see an expert who understands it.

So, for instance, when I started eating more and it tipped and it went the other way,

I saw a psychiatrist because I thought, oh, I don't want to do this.

This must be related to something else that isn't to do with an eating disorder.

And he put me on an appetite suppressant, which is the number one.

An appetite suppressant?

An appetite suppressant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Medication.

The worst thing.

Yeah.

So, stuff like that, that it can be, you can be led down the garden path by so many people.

And when you have an eating disorder, in my experience, you're so sensitive to what people say.

People will say you look really healthy.

It's the number one thing never to say to someone who's recovering from an eating disorder.

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Who's recovering from an eating disorder.

Or anyone, yeah, anyone who...

Who's experienced dysregulation with food, I think because people tie food to the way

you look so much, and we equate looking healthy with being fat, I think, especially if you've

come out of a restrictive eating disorder.

So when someone is, let's call it, use the word, say the word fat, there's an association

with it being healthy, do you think?

After being underweight, when you become a quote-unquote regular weight, you're not

underweight, and people start saying that you're healthy, it's just the number one

thing you shouldn't say.

Because in your brain, even though you are, say, a regular size, again, quote-unquote

because, you know, any size can be regular, for you, it makes you, you are already so

hypervigilant of the way that you look when you're reminded by other people, it confirms

this bias in your head that you have that everyone is noticing and everyone cares.

And to be honest, the first time I wrote about my eating disorder online was because I was

gaining weight, and I was so worried that people were looking.

And thinking, oh, she's failing, she mustn't care about work anymore, look, she's, you

know, getting fat.

And that's why I wrote about it.

I didn't write about it to help anyone, I wrote about it because I was ashamed and I

felt like I needed to get ahead of some narrative.

So now's a good time to tell us the name of your book and why'd you call it that?

Yes, so the name of my book, we'll just pretend it's here, is All I Ever Wanted Was To Be

Hot, and it's, I call it kind of part memoir, part manifesto, about my experience of a

eating disorder and cosmetic surgery, how I felt when those, when that, those were really

big parts of my life, and then reflecting on it as someone who's nearing 30 and having

kind of a lot more life experience than when those things started.

And are you taking the piss when you say I always wanted to be hot?

And if not, what do you mean by that?

Like a, and what is hot?

Yes.

What is hot?

I mean, is it the social environment of, socially?

Social media environment, what looks, what is considered to be hot?

What is hot?

So the title, maybe I'll go back and kind of explain it.

Yeah.

When I started writing the book, it was first about my disordered eating, and then I thought,

I also need to talk about-

Before you had a title.

Before I had a title, yeah.

Yep.

The title was originally something else, and I was writing with this other title in my

mind, and a funny thing happens when you're writing a book, I feel like when you have

the title first, you kind of arrange the words around that kind of expression or that

kind of idea.

Probably got 60% into writing it, and I started writing about the cosmetic surgery, and I

thought, no, the guiding star through my whole life and the reason I made so many decisions

was because I wanted to be hot.

And to me, hot is about being desirable, and desirable to people who have a very specific

idea of what a desirable woman looks like.

And to me, it was what I imagined a 13-year-old boy would think is a hot woman.

So to be in demand, to be popular, to be the kind of person who...

Who would look like they fit in on TV as a news presenter, for instance.

So we're not talking about bikini model hot type of thing, or...?

No, but I mean, that'd be nice too, but it's more hotness as power to me.

Hotness is a woman's power, and it's the way that she gets noticed.

And I always felt like, I always felt that I had a lot to offer.

I felt that I could be entertaining, I could keep people's attention, but in order to get

it and to not be mocked, I couldn't be fat, I couldn't be ugly.

And I couldn't also look like I was trying too hard.

So for me, the cosmetic surgery was definitely swept under the rug for so many years.

And if I started dating someone, it would take me ages to tell them that I'd had a rhinoplasty,

for instance, because I felt...

What is that, rhinoplasty?

Like a nose job.

Nose job.

Yeah.

Okay.

Is that the cosmetic surgery you're talking about?

Oh, yeah.

That's one of...

I've had...

Can I just list them off?

Yeah, go for it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, no, it's...

No, no, please, because I'm curious, totally curious.

So I had a rhinoplasty when I was 17.

I got fresh out of school, just got off the plane on schoolies.

I had a breast augmentation when I was 19.

Augmentation, yeah.

Boob job.

Boob job, yeah.

I had a second rhinoplasty when I was 21.

I started getting Botox, I think, when I was 23.

I got lip filler for the first time around the same time as the breast implants.

And yeah, that's kind of...

And then I add on top, I think, things like hair extensions.

I had bleach blonde hair for 15 years.

Fake tan, fake tan machine, lashes.

Everything.

Everything you could think of that enhances your appearance.

I've thought about it or done it.

Yeah, so when you're doing that, that's mad, that list.

But when you're sort of going through the process, is it more process or is it actually

a strategy?

You're thinking, hang on, I've got to get a boob job.

I've got to get my lips fuller.

And it's for these reasons.

Like full lips look more attractive to...

Or is it because everyone else is doing it?

And when I compare myself to everybody else on TV, or wherever the case may be, my teeth

aren't white enough.

Like when you watch television, everyone's got like...

Some of the times their teeth are so bright, they jump out at you.

It's interesting, when you first walked in, you asked about the lighting.

And so you're still conscious of this stuff.

You're well aware of it.

Was it your hyper-awareness of what you're supposed to look like, for example, in the

media as a power person?

Yeah, for sure.

That's what hot meant to you?

Yeah.

And did you have icons of somebody who was a proxy to that?

Did you say, that person there, I want to look like her?

Oh, not necessarily.

It's all been very insular.

For instance, when I had a rhinoplasty, I didn't know many people who had it.

And celebrities didn't really admit to them.

So there were people, there were before and afters that you could find on the internet,

but it wasn't kind of talked about as often as it is now.

I loved Sandra Sully, which is quite random.

Yeah, the newsreader.

Yeah.

Loved watching her growing up.

So yeah, for a long time when I was a kid, I wanted to be a newsreader and they're very

coiffed and perfect.

But in terms of social media, for instance, I wouldn't look at pictures of women in their

bikinis.

I never put them on my wall like a lot of women did.

I was very much thinking of it, like you say, as a strategy.

Yeah.

So, but the reason you didn't put, well, they less pick the Kardashians, for example, is

just one I know of.

Um, you know, they're all very curvy, um, and they have this straight hair and it's

a look, it's a look.

Okay.

And I see a lot of women here in Sydney, at least, um, young women who look like a Kardashian

to me when I look at it.

Um, how did, were you ever around that territory?

Do you ever think to yourself, that's, that's, that's my icon.

That's my proxy.

No, no.

So, so when you say hot, then you're not looking, cause you know, a lot of guys would say that's

hot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What guys are thinking is hot.

It's hot is more in a, in relation to what you wanted to do in a career sense.

Like who's my icon in my territory?

Yeah.

It would be someone like a channel B presenter.

So I always had short hair, like all through my eating disorder, I had a shaved head or

I had very short.

Shaved head.

Yeah.

Or like a little fringe kind of like very anti-male gaze.

Not for any reason.

I just loved that aesthetic.

And honestly, I thought you had to be a certain.

Anti, what'd you say?

Anti-male gaze.

Yeah.

I wasn't, I wasn't doing it to try and like push men away.

I was still definitely interested in being, having attention, but I also had this kind

of like, my friend calls it terminal uniqueness where you want to be different to other people.

I didn't want to be like regular girls.

They also call them pick Misha.

Have you heard of that?

No.

Tell me what that, what is that?

Pick Misha.

So they call certain people pick me's.

It can be any gender where you want to be different to everyone else.

And then pick Misha is like the name for that person.

The name of that person.

Yeah.

So, so.

Cause, cause when you say, I always want to be hot, like, uh, it's actually a little

bit more obverse than then what the title actually says, because hotness, I guess, is

in the eye of the beholder.

Everyone's got a different view on it, but you've got a specific view of what it meant

for you.

Yeah.

I guess it doesn't matter though, in terms of what the book's outcome is, because given

that everyone's got a different view and they all go about it, maybe perhaps in the wrong

way, um, they've got to be careful that they don't go down the same slippery slope that

you went down.

Yeah.

And is that the objective of the book?

Somewhat.

What are you, what were you trying to do?

What are you, or are you just having a yarn?

No, I definitely, this is one thing that I did have a, you know, a strategy to try and

maybe, I don't want to go as far as help people.

Cause I think some people would read it and just be entertained.

But for me, things that I'm passionate about, uh, having more regulation in the cosmetic

surgery industry.

And regulation in that, who can go and get it?

Probably who can get going.

And no, not so much that, cause I think people should be able to make their own decisions

for their body.

But I think there are certain safeguards that would be helpful.

I regret getting a breast augmentation when I was 19.

I didn't know what, I didn't think about in 10 years time, which is now, I didn't think,

oh, you know, they have like 10 to 15 year limits.

And it's in terms of the life of the implant.

The implant, yeah.

So what happens at the end of the 10 years?

Two things.

You can get them out because they can rupture.

Yeah.

So a lot of people realize it's time to get them out.

Because they rupture in your body.

That doesn't sound good.

No, it's not, it's not fun.

Or, or you can just get them out because, you know, you might need a lift or this or

that because they like stretch the skin.

But I went and got a, um, I had an appointment a month ago to try and talk about getting

them out.

I thought now that I've written a book, I'm going to like use that money to get my breast

implants out thinking it'd be $3,000.

It's going to be at least $20,000.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When I was 19, I thought, oh no, no, no, I'm going to be, I'm going to be married by

the time I'm 30 with a house in Portsea and I'm probably going to have like three kids.

You know, you have such a different idea of what your perfect life looks like when you're

30 and it creeps up on you real quick and what you want, that's not at all what I see

for myself.

So, so when, when, I mean, I, I guess lots of women get breast implants, but when do

you think it's a good idea to get cosmetic surgery or like what advice would you give

to some person who's.

Younger person in particular, who's thinking about doing this?

I mean, cause like I often wonder what happens when, if a woman hasn't had kids, so like what

happens when the, when you got breast implants, when you, when you're pregnant, assuming you

want to breastfeed, maybe they don't want to, I get that, but what would you say to

people like, because a lot of younger people getting all sorts of things done at a very

young age, like 19, 18 in your case, that was you, what, what do you say to them?

Get, where do they get advice from?

What, what are the guardrails that need to be put around this?

There are guardrails that are now in place very, very recently where people who are seeing

a cosmetic surgeon then have to go and get a mental health check-in with a doctor.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

And there was a lot of.

Their own doctor or a doctor?

A doctor.

Like a psychologist or a psychiatrist as well?

Yeah.

Yeah.

To just get a read on why they're doing it.

What are your expectations?

Cause often what can happen if you're someone with body dysmorphic disorder, for instance,

you can just keep going back.

It's not perfect.

It's not good enough.

You get revision rhinoplasty after revision rhinoplasty.

That's where you see the overfiller is because you stop realizing what you actually look

like.

That's part of body dysmorphia.

You can't actually see yourself for what you look like.

So to me, when I look back, I had anxiety and depression from a really young age and

that was on my record.

But you know, cosmetic surgeons aren't looking for that.

Did you realize that?

Did you realize that you had anxiety and depression?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But nobody asked you that question?

No, not when I was getting cosmetic surgery.

And for me, I totally, I thought, okay.

Yeah.

It's a mind thing.

This is a body thing.

I'm doing this as a strategy, as you said.

But yeah, the breast implants for me as well.

So the rhinoplasty, I don't regret because I don't see that as related to sexuality,

for instance.

Yeah.

But with the breast implants, as a 19 year old, I'm not thinking about breastfeeding.

I'm thinking, what can I do to my body to make it the most appealing?

And it's not so much for a random person, but it's rather because I felt like,

they're not perfect.

I can never be naked in front of someone again.

And when I had them done, I don't know.

Before you had it done, you thought that.

Before I had it done, yeah.

I'd only slept with one person before I had them done.

And I thought, oh, I'm never going to sleep with, I'm never going to take my clothes off

in front of anyone else before I get them fixed.

They went lopsided because I'd lost weight.

And I thought, oh, as a 19 year old, the only thing I have is my body.

I don't have a job.

I don't, you know, I had a job, but you know, I don't have anything else going for me.

If I'm going to find someone, I need to be as perfect as I can be.

Yeah.

So, and as an easy fix, I just go along to the plastic surgeon or whatever type of people

do this stuff and just choose the shape and the size that I want, pay for it, and it's

all sorted.

Yeah.

In which case I don't have to put weight back on.

I can stay on my current trajectory, which is just no good.

No.

But I would never tell a woman or young girl, I'd never, and I tried to do this in the book

and I mentioned this in the book, I never want to be the 29 year old who goes,

goes and tells a 19 year old what they should and shouldn't do for their body or, you know,

beware of this.

Because when people my age now were telling me that, I thought, oh, you're just dried

up.

Yeah.

You know, I had that mentality.

You can't get through to someone if you're telling them how to think.

Yeah.

Well, that's, that's, that's an interesting point because when you're 29, you don't think

you're very old, but a 19 year old looking at a 29 year old thinks she is old.

Yeah.

And I see it in the rugby league world.

I know you're from, um, well,

you've been up here for a while now, but I, I, I, I know that, uh, like young footy

players, they come into the club at 19 and they look at the guys in the 29, 29 year old

girls in the same, same team and they think they're all guys like they, and to me looking

at all of them, I think they're all the same age, but, and there's not a, there's only

respect in terms of skills and stuff like that, but don't tell me how to relieve my

life because you wouldn't have any understanding about how I leave my life at 19.

I mean, how do you weave comedy into your book?

Cause this conversation so far has been fairly serious and, uh, you know, and, and you're

writing a book, so you can't look friendly and, you know, you, you have a natural, don't

get me wrong, funny face.

You look like you're funny and you smile big and all that sort of stuff.

So I can, I get a different aura from you when you're talking about the subject.

And you, you, and your body language, everything, but you don't do, you're not going to give

that to me in a book because there's just words, just text.

Well, this is the beauty of writing Mark.

And this is the biggest compliment anyone can ever give me.

And it's that I write the same as I sound.

Yeah.

So how, how do you do that?

Like, does it, how do you bring that out?

I mean, what's, what's your, what's your shtick?

Like, do you use words?

Is it language or is it a rhythm or is it like in nearly inverse?

Like.

I'm reading Homer or something.

How do you, how the hell do you do it?

Like, how do you write colorful and energetic and enthusiastic and stuff like that?

Like the way you are.

Yeah.

It's all just a skill.

It's just a learned skill.

And I guess it's also, I think writing as well.

I think it's something you can learn, but it's also some people just have a certain

tone that you can't emulate.

And that's what I think, like to think I have, I'm very confident in my writing skill.

If anything, and I guess it's just, I had a lot of training working.

The original place that I worked was a youth news publication and their whole tone was

very trying to make jokes and trying to be funny.

So I learned the kind of craft there, but it's just about trying to write in a way that

you're not trying to sound too smart.

You're also not trying to try to dumb yourself down or think, oh, this is, I'm going to,

I'm going to like get the most amount of people are going to understand.

Because people understand a lot more than you think.

I often find when in entertainment.

And so it's just about finding a funny way of writing something.

I think you saying rhythm and the kind of words that you use can be very strategic and

funny because I think the best comedies when you catch someone by surprise, I get that.

That's kind of what laughter comes from is, oh yeah, that's funny.

I get that.

So I always want people to read my writing and go, oh, I get that.

I understand that.

I've had a lot of people message me saying, oh my God, I think we're the same.

I think we're the same person and to me, I think I'm really unique.

So I think, oh yeah, no, that's a good thing.

You're unique in maybe the way you wrote it, but you're the same person in terms of the way you

express it, like, cause they're, they're, they're obviously relating to it.

How hard is it to try not to be a lecture?

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Don't worry about my name, I'm not going to say it's a boy or a girl for that matter.

Um, but, recently they sent me a note asking me if I could come and talk to them, you know,

and uh, and told me that I would get a bit of a surprise when I saw this particular individual.

Because I hadn't seen this particular person for a long time.

And uh,

this particular person put quite a bit of weight on, but the, at the bottom of the text this individual said to me,

and when you see me, I don't want to lecture.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Um, well don't lecture me or something along those lines.

And I wrote back, well, I couldn't give a fuck.

Um, just happy to see you anyway.

Um, how, how hard has it been not to make this a lecture?

.

I don't think hard.

That's in terms of your intent, but how hard is it in the outcome?

I understand, yeah.

I guess, yeah, it's pretty easy to fall into the do this, don't that, especially when you feel passionate about something.

Mm.

And I do really think that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about eating disorders, definitely.

I think the cosmetic surgery is a bit more nuanced.

But I definitely feel that eating disorders and diet culture is unwell and it shouldn't be as normal as it is to speak.

The way that we do about bodies does a lot more harm than good.

But I make a very conscious effort to not lecture people just because I don't like being lectured.

And I don't think you change people's minds by, it's like leadership.

I've had really bad managers.

I've had really good managers.

The ones that are good are the ones that look you in the eye and treat you like an equal, but then hold you up when you need it or kind of give you feedback when you need it.

But you always feel that it's from a place that they're bringing you in.

That they're bringing you up.

They're trying to make you better.

Yeah.

And they get it.

And for me it's always, this kind of sounds funny, but it's the looking someone in the eye in a warm way and acting like, you know, I think the worst thing that you can do is treat someone like you know better than them because everyone is an expert in their own life.

And I think everyone thinks that they're doing things the right way.

It must have been, how many pages did you end up writing?

Do you remember?

I think it's, I can tell you how many words.

I think it was 70 or 80,000.

That's about 700 words a page.

So you get 100 pages or a couple hundred pages, I don't know.

270 pages, let's say.

It must have been a mission because you've got your own guardrails around what you want to do, what you don't want to do, tone, put comedy in there, like make it funny, et cetera.

But at the same time, express yourself.

But at the same time, make sure you tell the truth.

And at the same time, talk your own story, which in some cases could be not shocking, but a little bit off-putting for some people or wrong-putting.

You also got to be careful that you don't trigger anybody.

This must have been, how long did it take you to write the book?

You're so right.

They're the hardest things.

They're all the things that would stop me from writing.

I physically like the act of writing.

I'll write another book because I find it very enjoyable and I love putting something down and then showing someone.

I get so much joy out of that.

But yeah, I would struggle with.

I would struggle with getting in my own way, feeling like, oh, I sound like a know-it-all or this isn't funny or this is, I sound like I'm complaining.

My biggest thing was I sound like I'm complaining.

Oh, where, where, where?

You had cosmetic surgery and now you're not sure about it.

That must be nice.

So I was always worried that people are going to think of me as really vain and vapid and it's just, you're just talking about yourself, which I try not to do, even though my whole book's about myself.

You know, it's, it's, I find it, look, I'm dying just to read at least the first couple of pages.

I just want to see the tone and the style and the rhythm.

Yeah, see if I have taught myself up or if you see the mission.

No, you haven't taught yourself up.

You've, you've presented to me, because I've done a few books myself and, and I know how hard it is to do it.

But you've presented to me the constraints and I, I, I couldn't write a book like that because there's just too many guardrails.

I mean, I just, I'd go mental.

Like, when I write books, I just write whatever I want.

In your case, I just wanted to know how you, how you navigated your way through and stayed

in the midst of the musicians.

How do you get around it?

Well, I think it's a great question.

270 pages stayed in your lane it's a really tough one but it's also a really important topic too

like it's a very important topic quite topical and i and i you know because i see other people

like celeste barber so she's great she built social media campaign around taking the piss

out of herself on this this sort of very topic but doesn't very funny but it's sort of quite

simple and it's it's pretty much a it's pretty much a repeatable strategy she just does the

same thing over and over and over and over again and she still gets the same amount of laughs and

the same amount of you know views and she's just as popular yours is much more nuanced

your book i'm saying is much more nuanced and uh so i'm actually looking forward to reading when

you send me a copy now i'll buy a copy sorry no no we'll put we'll we'll get a copy of off the

off the internet and we'll post it up on our on our somewhere on our promo um i do want to talk

before i go before you go more importantly i this concept of froom's world um

you

once i already told you earlier on that i was intrigued by the name frooms came from now i know

i thought it was some name you word you made up or meant something rather than i didn't know about

but it's now your mom's name but what is frooms world well i can tell you why i chose her maiden

name there's something in there yeah yeah yeah like you guess my dad's a larrikin we call him

center in my household because everybody call him center center everything revolves around him yeah

yeah well he thinks it does or it does a bit of both a bit of both yeah massive personality what's

his name steve steve's world though so steve's world yeah your house is steve's world yeah he's

car salesman yeah he's used car salesman if that kind of like paints a picture very typical

australian male 67 just on paper homer simpson my mom is yeah my mom's opposite my mom's quiet

and considered uh i i want to say he doesn't have a lot of confidence in herself maybe in a way or

growing up i felt as if she didn't have much confidence because i equated so she's marge

yeah probably a bit like march yeah but she's i don't want to say she's smarter than dad because

dad will probably listen to this but she just has kind of like a world wisdom that i really

appreciate and she's a nurse and she's very caring and i like to think i'm a lot i would be like get

the get that from her a bit more considered than say my dad would be but i always felt like she

didn't really have a voice because she played a very maternal role in my household and dad's a

like recount her like he's telling all the

stories and we're sitting and listening to his stories again and again and again so i wanted to

use her name because we feel very similar and i know that she has stories and she never talks

about herself and to me it was important to use that yeah interesting everyone else exactly

but she's funny she's got a great sense of humor and she's given me so much she's the

reason i'm doing this because she would always listen to me and always tell me i was creative

and believe in me pay for me to do whatever i wanted and has supported me the whole time

watches everything i do listens everything just classic mum you know so it's perfect it's perfect

yeah and she's perfect um and then froome's world it's like wayne's world was the inspiration i love

mike myers he's probably my favorite funny person ever and so i thought froome's world this is my

world for whatever i want my newsletter is whatever i want my instagram is whatever i want

and i think i know you wanted to talk to me about like commerce and doing paid partnerships i only

do things that will work within froome's world things that i want to do and i think that's what i'm

i use things that i like so everything's very strategic yeah do you have a do you have a

website froome's world i do froome's.com of course and i've registered i'm the p2a ltd i'm a company

and also i didn't realize but i hadn't had the trademark so i just bought the trademark oh good

on you so if i go to froome's world.com.au is it.au.com just.com so it's global good on you

so if i go to froome's.com what am i going to see there what are you going to what are you going to

tell me what's on there apart from your book being now promoted i hope it's on there being

yeah what else am i going to see on there what's your content got on there we need to go and get

you out in the desktop computer so i can show you yeah it's designed what are you doing to me when

when you when you're sort of nudging me towards it so for me it's all about the first impression

and giving you a taste of kind of what you're in for because i don't even know this is why i find

it hard to explain what i do or people who started following froome's what is this it's whatever i

want and so the website you go on it and it's my face it's designed like a desktop computer

so you've got all your little files press writing buy my book here um click on this random bin and

you're going to get taken to a youtube video that i made so it's yeah it's like a screensaver yeah

so but it's and you're doing youtube you're doing somewhat but again i don't do podcasts because i

know if i do a podcast i've got to treat it like a full-time job and i don't like talking that much

but yeah you're pretty good at it oh i get if i've got a topic i could talk now i could talk

underwater but like i don't know if i'm going to be able to do it if i'm going to be able to do it

i always want to make sure i'm bringing value and i'm not sure if me talking about my life is

the best value you're a professionist yeah a little bit but not in a way that gets i never

get hindered by it yeah i love making things how do you mean making things i love writing i love

making videos i love being creative yeah so like and and when you say making videos you mean like

video content yeah as in and and but it's you in it talking about some topic so you're not really

an evangelist this book's not about

evangelism for you know not getting you know surgery cosmetic surgery or or it's not an

evangelistic book it's sort of by the sound of it's taking us on your journey taking us on a

journey and it's cultural studies look at the early 2000s in australia really some history too

a lot of history yeah a lot people i look at what your generation grew up with and how it's very

interesting my generation i'm homer simpson too i'm the same as your dad a little bit older

actually

dad if you got up at 4 a.m no i mean like my generation like cosmetic surgery well maybe

someone might have got a nose job or something perhaps my nana had a nose job really so my dad's

mom that's why my parents let me get it because they yeah oh there's a whole you got to read the

book mark i'm telling you i'm definitely gonna read i'm definitely gonna read the first couple

of pages i'm dying to see your your writing style you know like and how you navigate your way

through this

complicated set of guardrails that just have to be set by un society through something that's a

really important topic message me and tell me is it coming across the same as i'm speaking

that's a good point but you know like uh have you done an audiobook yes you've done the audiobook

yeah how'd you feel when you did the audiobook have you done one yeah i've done they drive me

crazy when i did it i always kept saying did i actually when i was reading did i actually write

that like my god and by the way i did my audiobook audiobook

some years after um um that i had written the book so there's some of the stuff was actually

not even that relevant yeah but you have to be uh you know completely faithful to the book you have

to read everything but just some of it i've found very difficult to read out again and when you read

something as opposed to when you speak something what you're writing on it not necessarily meant

to be read out spoken yeah spoken out loud it's a bit like people who write speeches

and they don't actually go and read it in front of a mirror and on a microphone and listen back to

it they write the speech and sounds completely terrible when they get up and actually read it

in front of everybody it just sounds dreadful um so and they're two different skills so when you

said to me i hope and this is a great skill i mean if you can do this if you've achieved it

if i can you want me to tell you if when i read it it sounds like the way you're speaking now

um if you can achieve that that's magnificent that that's a big deal

your book will be around up there with homer and not homer simpson but actually homer i'd prefer

homer simpson no no well i the the trick mark is i read out everything that i write after i write it

i write really yeah i read it out loud yeah like so when you're doing the draft the first first

iteration you actually you write a page you read it back to yourself yeah listen to every chapter

is a story and then it's all one story it's all going to make sense wow it's all got to be

connect together you can't have it be bitsy it's all one story

well this book to me sounds to be honest sounds fascinating in the process and the outcome um

the topic's very important it's it's a critically important topic um and um i wish you the very best

and i'm definitely going to get a copy of that book thank you mark i'm sorry i didn't bring one

next time no do you know what in terms of marketing 101 that's what you should be doing

you're fired yeah totally you're fired no no you're hired i'm gonna get your book good luck

really nice to meet you yeah you too

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