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153 Sexologist Chantelle Otten Breaks Down Sex Myths The Impact Of Porn Common Mistakes

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For someone who has a vulva, they need to be pleasured for at least 25 to 30 minutes. And I'm not just saying it's like jackhammering, pumping someone away.

Not for 25 minutes.

No, you need to be.

Is there a rule of thumb about the number of times a week an individual should have sex? Like, is there a cadence that's healthy?

For a penis owner, you should be masturbating because it does reduce your risk of prostate cancer. So definitely like once or twice a week would be really great.

Move past your own ego and thinking that you're going to be the best lover that they ever had because they're their own best lover.

And they're going to be able to coach you to be an even better lover.

Because I actually have a friend. That sounds a bit weird, I have a friend, but it's not me.

Yes, right.

Chantelle Otten, welcome to Spray Talk.

Thank you.

You are a sexologist.

I am, yeah.

First, could you just tell me, apart from that you're an author and you've got your own podcast too.

We'll talk about that in a moment, but can you explain to me what a sexologist is?

It's a fancy word for a sex therapist.

But what's a sex therapist?

Yes, so as a sexologist, I help individuals, couples, groups, anyone and everyone who has like a question or a concern or something that they want to learn about sexuality and relationships.

I like to approach sex from a real like biological, psychological, interpersonal and sociocultural kind of perspective.

So I like to look from a holistic perspective at an individual.

And then find out why things might be going wrong.

And then find out why things might be going off track.

And so I like to think of myself more of a sex detective.

What's happening for this individual in terms of their overall life and why is that impacting on their sex life?

So, sex therapist, sexologist, why would, I mean, because I think what you described to me is how you go about it.

But why does someone come and see you?

Like, give me an example, maybe a couple of, I'm sure there's hundreds of examples why.

But give me a couple of examples.

Why does someone consult you?

They go to the GP.

They go to the GP and they say to the GP, or is it they go to a marriage counselor, like, our sex life's fucked, I want out.

Does the marriage therapist perhaps say, well, maybe let's go and get some, go see a sexologist, go see Chantel and have a chat to her.

Maybe she could help you through this process.

Is that what we're talking about?

I mean, that's like worst case scenario, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I think, you know, you can come if you just want to improve on your sex life.

You might be having a lot of fun, but you want to have more fun.

So then you can come talk to.

Someone like myself who can make a few suggestions or, you know, I can refer you to someone who might be able to help you in terms of other things and techniques.

Or if you want to get into Tantra, that's not my kind of forte.

So I can work with someone who does that.

But I would say in general, I do tend to see people who have problems.

And that could be erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, painful sex, desire discrepancies, so low desire matched with someone who's got high desire.

So I see a lot of people with health care, chronic conditions, trauma backgrounds, disabilities, you know, anything and everything really.

So if I could just, my brain was going crazy thinking about all the various questions you could ask or I could ask.

Let's talk about dysfunction, erectile dysfunction for a man.

For a penis owner.

Someone who has a penis.

Yeah, a penis owner, exactly.

Well, then we can talk about sort of pain in sex on the, someone who's got a vagina.

Or anyone can have pain with sex.

Yeah, true.

It doesn't have to be in the vagina, I guess.

So, but let's just talk about dysfunction.

If someone comes into you with sexual, with penile dysfunction, how much of it is about the way they're thinking?

You know, neurodysfunction.

Yeah.

So you can think of it as a physiological sense versus, say, a physiological sense.

So it could be a chemical reason.

In other words, if it's a biochemical reason, they just take one of these pills because it might improve your blood flow or stop the blood from evacuating from your penis too early, for example.

How do you work that process out?

It's quite easy.

So usually when I have a patient in front of me, I ask them if they still get morning erections or not, or nightly erections.

Morning erection means what though?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

with erection? Yeah, they might have it during the night or they have it in the morning if they

notice that they're having them and they haven't noticed that dropping off, then usually it's a

psychological thing that we're working with. A lot of the time they come to me after they've

tried Viagra or Cialis, for example. And I often ask my patients who do have erectile dysfunction

to try using Viagra and Cialis in conjunction with psychological therapy as well. Because

erectile dysfunction is usually a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have it once,

you get nervous the next time I'm going to lose my erection again, then I'm going to be embarrassed

and I'm not going to satisfy my sexual partner. And it also taps into masculinity and how I am

as a man or how I am as a sexual performer, for example.

And then the performance anxiety kicks in and then you lose your erection again.

So a lot of it is coaching someone through the performance anxiety aspect of erectile dysfunction

alongside checking their medications, their health, whether they have a lot of fat around

their stomach, for example, because that can make it difficult for blood flow down to the

genital area. Are they doing enough exercise?

You know, what is going on for them that's making them have difficulty? So that's why I like to look

at it from a whole body and mind perspective. And is erectile dysfunction, let's call it for

blokes for the moment, is that a predominant reason they would come and see you for, say,

an individual, one guy, one person, one owner of a penis, as opposed to coming in as a couple?

Mm-hmm.

Is that like a...

Mm-hmm.

Is that a predominant reason people would see you as, for example, as a sex therapist?

Yeah.

Is that... It's a big deal? Like in terms of statistical numbers of people coming in?

I was in the majority of people I see in my clinic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I would say.

Is that a thing, like a big thing?

Yeah, I would say.

Because men talk about it all the time.

Yeah.

Blokes, I know. Blokes are always talking about it.

Yeah.

And is part of the reason then, for example, do you ask questions like, do you take too

much Coke? Do you snort too much Coke? I mean, you get into that sort of territory.

Yeah, of course. I ask everything. I ask about drug use, alcohol use.

Um, lifestyle. When are they having sex? Because if they're having sex after lots of

drugs, lots of alcohol, of course you might lose your erection. And then you're getting

nervous about it next time. But you have to look at the context of your sexual experiences

as well. And the timing. I ask a lot about stress levels. I ask about self-esteem, how

they're feeling about themselves. I also ask about the communication between them and their

sexual partner. Because if they've lost their erection and then their partner's gone, is

it me? You know, what's wrong?

Yeah.

What's going on with you? Um, you can't perform or look, you've lost it. Critical kind of

narratives around how your body is functioning, especially when it's outside of your control,

is going to lead you to feel more anxious about it the next time.

In a physiological sense, um, when it's because of the way your blood flow is working, you

might have a big fat tummy or just not exercising properly or you're getting older, things are

deteriorated.

Um, would you be able to explain to me at least in a sort of a, from a health point

of view, why the blood is not staying or not either, either not flowing into the penis

fully or not staying in there? I mean, what's the reason? Is there some nerve down there

that's been damaged or, you know, is the blood vessels got thick or, you know, what's going

on?

Yeah, it could be quite a few reasons to be honest. So there's not kind of, you know,

a one size fits all, but essentially if you're not getting enough blood pumping through your

body or if you're getting it pulling, for example, down the bottom of your legs, because

you're not doing enough exercise for it to come back up your legs into your genital area

or vice versa, if it's kind of getting stuck around your mid part and it's not going down

into the, you know, like it's not impacting the genital area like you want it to, or it's

going into the penis and then coming out, being drawn out quite quickly so it can get

back up to the heart.

So that's when we would use like a penis pump and maybe like a cock ring to make it

stay in the penis for a while.

Trap the blood.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and cock rings, for example, I mean, I've never used one, but I've seen

them.

You can get some really fun ones. They vibrate.

Because we had a lady on, on the mentor show who actually, that was her business and she

had cock rings. The, is there any danger associated with these things? Like, like trapping the

blood and you know, the next thing you know, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood,

blood, blood, blood, blood.

Yeah.

And you've got to go to hospital or something like that.

It's not going to be, it's rarely going to get to the point where it's going to be dangerous.

Right.

But I definitely have had, actually, if you listen to this season of my Audible series,

cause we're doing sessions with people who volunteer to be on the podcast. So it's a,

it's a live therapy session.

Yeah. Like real deal.

Yeah. It's a real deal. You get to listen to people talking about their, their concerns

or their challenges. We did have one participant who is getting into kink porn.

He's getting into kink practices. And he was using a penis pump quite regularly to the

point that he actually, his penis discolored because he had brought so much blood down

into the penis.

Like bruised.

Yeah. So it was almost like when you get a hickey or a bruise, because there's so much

sucking on that area that he had bruised his penis and it had gone quite a dark shade that

he was concerned about.

Are these things like popular, like, I mean,

It will disappear by the way.

But, but are these things popular, like cock rings, pumps, do, do they, do they, do they,

like if someone comes to see you, you think that's maybe something they should be trying

to do, like, do you sell it to them or how do they find this stuff? Like how do they

know?

I show them where to get it. Yeah, for sure. So I'm going to recommend the product that

I think is relevant for their individual needs.

Right.

Yeah. So I think for myself, I, I'm very, very particular about how I go about my work

and I, I'm very much focused on the individual and then their overall quality of life and

then their relational and sexual quality of life as well.

Yeah.

So I do bring the partner. If one person has a problem, it is also a couple's problem

as well. So I do bring the partner in, but I want to make sure they're getting very specific

recommendations for their individual needs.

And do you, do you, I mean, how important is the follow-up process? I mean, do you sort

of say, okay, go and try this. I would like to know tomorrow morning the result of what

you tried the night before, or do you just make another appointment? Like what, what's

the process and how is it, how do you encourage people to be really open?

Yeah.

How do you encourage people to be really open with you? Like, and, and, and honest.

You listen to the podcast, you'll find that people are very open and honest with me. Now

I'm, I'm very good at my job at making people feel extremely comfortable. It's a very safe

situation. It's a nonjudgmental space. My job is to hear all of their questions and

I don't have a bias. I'm just there to help them. And I want them to feel seen, heard,

understood, and supported. It's me and them against whatever problems that they have.

Um,

In regards to the follow-up process, I'll generally see someone for a 50 minute appointment

and then I'll see them maybe three weeks later because they have to have enough time to implement

some of the strategies that I give them.

Effectively homework.

Home play. I like to call it home play.

Home play.

Yes.

Yeah. It's better than work. Yes. Home play.

Yeah. We've got enough work going on, don't we? We're all a little bit stressed. So I

try and, and it might be simple things like, you know, change up the time in which you're

trying to have playtime. So maybe 10 PM, maybe 10 PM, maybe 10 PM, maybe 10 PM, maybe 10 PM,

maybe 10 PM.

Maybe 10 PM on a weeknight is not the right time for you because you're absolutely cooked

and your partner's cooked. And then it's kind of robotic. Why don't you try Sunday morning?

So you've had a day off to rest. You might've done something that has filled your cup and

made you feel really good. And then Sunday mornings you can sleep in and then just have

a relaxing time where you can engage with each other. Or if it's an individual, I'll

say, you know what?

Maybe you should try going out and not having so many drinks when you go out or forming

a connection with someone instead of one night stands. And so we talk through the dating

process or, you know, how to feel confident in their chat game, for example. So sometimes

sex is the last thing I talk about in my sessions.

Why is, why is sexual health so important? Why is it important to any one individual?

What's the reason? Is it because of the chemistry releases of all the various hormones, et cetera,

that come about as a result of having it? Or is it about just about intimacy?

Yeah.

What's the reason why it's so important?

The World Health Organization sees it as a fundamental part of our quality of life and

our health. Not only for the way that it impacts our body in various positive ways. So the

endorphins that get released, the dopamine responses, the oxytocin, the bonding, the

love hormones. But also it's great for cardiovascular health. It's great for stress relief. It's

great for sleep. There are so many physical benefits of it, but from an intimate emotional

point of view, you know, the way that you can connect with yourself is very important. So how

you feel about yourself, especially as an erotic being, because sex and eroticism is really, it's

somewhere that you go. It's not just something that you do, right? It's a place that you can go

with your mind, with the way that you touch. It's a sensory experience. And it can be really

incredibly beautiful if we don't lose, I guess, the goal of making it beautiful. I think a lot

people get into this rhythm where they go, I have to be doing this because it means that,

you know, A, I'm successful. They, they start looking at the goal of sex. So penetration and

orgasm, if we're talking about cis hetero relationships, they lose the fact that sex

is about pleasure and connection and feeling into someone or into yourself with your body,

with your mind. It's such a beautiful experience. I just think that we grew up,

or I definitely grew up with a lot of

movies that kind of showed it as a bit of a novelty or a silly thing or something that we

have to be ashamed about. I mean, I grew up with the American pie era. So that was when my guys

were fucking pies. Like it doesn't make it look that sexy, right? And it was all about, you know,

the penis and all about the pleasure of the penis or like, I don't know, it was kind of

just dumb and silly. And I think as a female, as a feminine person,

I never learned that pleasure was a pleasure. I never learned that pleasure was a pleasure.

And a lot of my friends, I went to an all-girl school, a Catholic school. A lot of them didn't

know that pleasure was for them. And I see the difficulties that they've had over the years

thinking, A, should I be doing this? Because there's a lot of shame that when you come from

like a different religion background. But also the fact that you never get asked about consent,

or we never learned about consent or boundaries or how to ask for what we want. So my job is to

really make people feel empowered in their sexual experiences, but also within themselves

and their boundaries and their pleasure, asking for what they want, saying no, setting boundaries

around even like timings when you're dating someone new and going, you don't have to rush

into anything. We had an event last night for my Audible series. And there was a woman there who

was like, how do you ask someone? She would have been in her forties, I think,

she's like, what do you mean you prioritize yourself? How do you prioritize yourself as a

woman? I'm meant to be doing the washing, the cleaning, cooking food. How am I meant to ask

for what I want in the bedroom? And she's like, I listened to half an episode of your sex therapy

series. And I had to stop because it was so confronting for me because I've never learned

that I'm allowed to ask for pleasure or I'm allowed to ask for what I want. So,

that was a really interesting experience. And I hope to see her in my clinic maybe one day.

But the fact is, if you can feel empowered in your erotic experiences and in yourself and

your self-worth, then you can really conquer a lot of other domains of your life as well.

It's something very interesting a moment ago, when we're talking about,

I guess I've got to be careful saying how I delineate this, but just by way of example,

a woman, you said,

you have to know how to put out boundaries, like things I don't want you to do.

But you also have to open up a door to get things that you do want someone to do or things that you

do want to do. So, you go sort of putting up a fence, but you're also putting up a gate as well.

Yeah. So, you can look at it as like, if you're driving like a car in your sexual experiences,

you have a green light, all the things that I say yes to, I do want to do them.

I've told you I'm so comfortable with these experiences. And then we have the amber light.

This is a maybe.

Proceed with caution. You have to ask quite regularly, ongoing, enthusiastic consent.

Do I want this? Or maybe today we don't try this. So, it's an amber light. And then there's a red

light. This stuff is off the table. I don't want to try this stuff. Don't even go there.

It might, if we create a safe space together, and I feel really, really comfortable and safe with you,

we might move some of those things that are in the red light zone into the amber zone

and see if we can try them. But they're a no for now.

When someone sets that process up, let's say it's the female, for example,

in a heterosexual couple, that's the female. How do you sort of reconcile that process with,

say, being sexually adventurous? So, how does that individual indicate to the other side,

the other person in the relationship, that they're,

they're prepared to be sexually adventurous? And how important is it to be sexually adventurous

in terms of sex, in terms of the advice that you give to someone as a therapist?

It's individualized. You don't have to. You can be vanilla. Vanilla is great as well.

Depends on who you are and what relationship you're in. I think that probably because of the society

that we have, we view adventure as something that we should be kind of aiming towards.

But if you're happy and satisfied,

and it's, it's good, it's great for you, then that's absolutely okay. I think in regards to

setting up boundaries and then trying new things, these are things that you can discuss outside the

bedroom, right? So, you never want to be in a situation with someone where they're like,

okay, well, now I want to try, if we say something that's kind of extreme,

that is happening quite a lot at the moment, I want to try choking. And you're like, well,

okay, we've never talked about this before. Now I'm here. I'm naked.

I mean, your bed, I feel really uncomfortable. You can go into fight, flight or freeze and often

people freeze. And that's when you have people crossing over the boundaries of consent. And

that's when you have either coercion or you can have assault. And it can be as small as asking

someone to do something that they don't want to do. And then not having the ability within their

body or their mind to problem solve because they've become so shocked that they end up doing

something that makes them feel really uncomfortable or potentially traumatized.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So, when would you,

suggest someone like, when do they discuss that? Like outside of the bedroom?

For sure.

Over a cup of coffee or something?

I don't think it has to be over a cup of coffee. I think for, and you know,

I might be stereotyping a little bit here, but I think for men, masculine people,

usually like driving a car works for like when you're driving, when you're having like a long

trip together or you're going for a walk. Often when there's other things that you can be focusing

on, so you can kind of just talk about it more freely and not be looking each other in the eyes

and being like, how do you feel?

About A, B, C, and D. It doesn't have to be.

Oh, by the way, that topic is like a by the way type conversation.

Yeah. I was listening to Chantel's podcast the other day and then one of the guys on there,

he was trying, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I thought that was like kind of cool. I'd love to

know what your thoughts about it are. Maybe we should give that a try. Or, you know, I read this

article about low desire and high desire. And I think, you know, I would think I would be more

excited about that. I think I would be more excited about that. I think I would be more excited about

that. I think I would be more excited about that. I think I would be more excited about that. I think

I would be more excited about trying some new things if we were to create more of a safe space

in our relationship. And that means I, you know, maybe talking about sex a little bit more. I know

it's a bit weird and uncomfortable, but I think the more we do it, the more we practice, the easier

it will become. It's funny, generationally, like my generation, you would never talk about that.

It's like, oh my God, like it's just not something you talk about. Can I just flip the conversation

just a little bit? Yeah.

Where does the prevalence of porn sit today, particularly with young people?

Yes.

Because I was, where was I listening to something the other day, talking about how

people between 20 and 30 are consuming more porn than everybody over 30. Everybody over 30 is

consumed in their whole lives. So that between 20 and 30, they're just, and of course, this all

as a result of smart devices and smart devices, not only that they know when you like porn and

they just keep feeding you stuff.

Right and center. In fact, I have a guy on my podcast who set up Pornhub and they own most of

the sites. So, and they, so pretty much all the sites that everyone thinks are going to different

ones are all owned by the same group as it, as it turns out. And, but they know that different

characteristics of different people algorithmically go into this various places and then they will

just keep feeding you. But what is, what have porn sites done to sexual health?

It's very complex.

Yeah.

I think it's like, it's, yeah, this is a layered topic. Porn in general, I'm not anti-porn. Let's

be clear. I think porn can be there for entertainment. It's not meant to be for education

though. I think the fact of the matter is we didn't get good sex education growing up. Still,

you know, it's getting there, but it's still a struggle to get good sex education. I certainly

got none and I learned a lot about sex from porn. So, but I always knew that it was not real life.

You know, I think some,

someone had told me, maybe my parents had said, you know what? It is for entertainment. It's not

a real life scenario. And if you think about sex with someone else, it's going to be messy. It's

going to be sticky. It's not always going to be about the penis owner and their pleasure.

In fact, in most pornography, you don't see condom use. You don't see vulva owners, their pleasure,

the clitoris. You see just a lot of kind of very sexualized behaviors that are aimed towards

the penis owner.

And look, that's fine for some people. I wouldn't say that it is healthy for, you know, learning

about sexuality and learning about real life experiences, nor is it healthy in regards to

discussing consent and pleasuring like a woman or knowing what a real orgasm is as opposed to

a fake orgasm. Because I think a lot of people are expecting orgasms from pornography to be these

wild, you know, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

very vocal kind of experiences. There's cum everywhere. It's very kind of sticky and

sexualized. So porn is there for entertainment, not for education. There are a lot of kind of

ethical sites coming up where you are seeing ongoing consent. You're seeing condom use.

You're seeing lubricant being used.

Ethical porn sites?

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So it's being produced by, these are sites that are kind of being made by majority kind of

female owners.

So you're seeing more pleasure aimed towards the vulva owner. And you are seeing like condom usage

or lubricant or saying, is this okay? Do you like this? You know, move to the left, that kind of

thing. Also, these things can be really sexy if you make them sexy. They don't have to be awkward.

But at the end of the day, porn does, you know, watching a sexualized experience on your screen,

it does release dopamine. It releases something that makes you feel really good.

And the more you have those experiences, the more you want them. And you start to get

more satisfaction from the screen than you do in real life scenarios, especially if you're a bit of

a, you know, maybe you're a little bit different or you're not so social. You don't have a good

group of people around you. Or you find it hard to find someone to date and you're finding solace

or like, you know, entertainment through pornography. It doesn't make then real life

experiences seem that exciting, especially if you've seen it so kind of

sexualized on the screen.

Does it, can it act, you said something interesting before about sex education.

Can it act as a wrong educator? I mean, apart from the obvious questions like

obvious education issues, like it's right now, most of the major porn sites are more about the

male, the penis owner, as opposed to...

The vulva owner.

You're doing so well with that.

The lingo, by the way.

Yeah, I know I'm going to think about it each time, but...

You got to remember, this is my job. So I'm like, it's closed off my tongue. I know it

doesn't do that for everyone.

But I'm getting there.

You're so good at it.

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This can be a wrong instruction, and I'll tell you what I mean by that. A girl's got to have

certain-sized boobs, because that's what the porn stars all look like. She's got to have a certain

type shape. She's got to be prepared to do all these different things to the penis owner. And

then the penis owner comes out with a penis that's like 12 inches long and is able to maintain his

position for like however long.

It goes for an hour or two hours or something. It's sort of pretty much all exceptions, I would

imagine, to the rule.

What? That's not your real-life sex life?

No, definitely not. So then that can lead to disappointment or inadequacies on both sides

of the boy or the girl, easily. And then that can create high levels of expectations and then

maybe levels of failure, et cetera.

Yeah.

And that sort of has a bit of a process, and they end up having to come and see you.

It's a shame for both sides, by the way, from both parties.

Yeah.

Because it looks like it's become so prevalent to me, because every young guy I know, they all

know all the porn stars. I mean, I talk to them, they all talk to me. I hear them talking. I've

got four sons of my own. I'm not shelving them, but basically I've got four sons, but I sort of

generally know what's going on.

Mm-hmm.

And also, they sort of create expectations about what they're expecting from whoever they're with,

and they also create expectations about how they should perform, relatively speaking.

Yes.

So should there be some sort of, not a ban, but should there be some sort of better management

of porn sites in that regard?

I mean, it would be great, wouldn't it? But I don't think that's going to happen.

No, it's not going to happen, because it sounds very interventionist, too, at the same time,

because I don't like intervention, relatively speaking, in normal. I like things to be a bit

more free of market.

But at the same time, it could be creating, maybe if it is banned, it'll take away your

industry, for that matter, because to some extent, a lot of these people will be coming to see you.

No, I don't think it'll ever take away my industry, because a lot of this stuff I see has nothing to

do with porn. So, I mean, I see people who are on, a lot of us are on medications for anxiety,

for depression, that can impact on your sex life.

Back to your topic, though, I think when it comes to regulation, actually, I just think that there

should be more regulation.

There should be more pornography that is released that is realistic, you know, with different bodies,

different sizes, different ages, different functions, you know, not being lubricated all

the time, not having a 12-inch cock, you know, like, let's just add some, like, real bodies and

real people into the mix, and that might help a little bit more. And let's cut down on such kind

of hyperbolic, over-sexualized content for, like, just for just, I don't know, for even,

education purposes, a lot of websites like Pornhub, for example, and we talk about this a lot in the

sexology community, there's been a lot of debate. Should we be using porn as a way to educate

people? Should we be adding in sex education pornography? We haven't got there just yet,

because the same thing, how do you regulate that? You know, the reason why OnlyFans has become so

big is it's because people are putting their own bodies on there. People who have, like, you know,

a diverse, you know, diverse, you know, diverse, you know, diverse, you know, diverse, you know,

diverse, you know, diverse, you know, diverse, you know, diverse, you know, diverse, you know,

a diverse range of bodies, of sizes, of shapes, of colors, you know, of functions can create their

own content for people to consume. So it's not just like the porn websites. We can have real

life people putting out content online, and they're making millions of dollars. And I think

that's great. Good for them. You know, sex is still one of the oldest industries that we have.

So let's use it to our advantage. And let's actually just curate some real life scenarios

there. I actually had Angela White sitting in that seat.

I love Angela.

Who's one of the, I think she's one of the most successful OnlyFans artists.

Creators.

In the world.

Yeah.

And she's a good Aussie girl.

She's amazing. I really adore her.

And the honesty with which she talks is, like, quite incredible. Like, and that's how her OnlyFans

side works as well. Is there a rule of thumb about the number of times a week an individual,

say, me, for example, should have sex? Like, is there, like, a cadence that's healthy?

No, because it's, you know, again.

Sex with yourself or sex with a partner, it doesn't matter. I'm talking.

Masturbation's really great, of course. And I think everyone should be masturbating and

enjoying themselves.

But I was saying, is it like a daily thing or a weekly thing? I mean, like, and does it,

is it linear relative to age? So as you get older, you do less, like, but it's some sort of,

has there only been any studies on this stuff?

No. And so I think, well, there's,

a lot of studies on it, yes, but it's kind of a, it's an understudied area, but it's an,

I guess, an area that is kind of discussed without a lot of evidence behind it just yet.

For a penis owner, you should be masturbating because it does reduce your risk of prostate

cancer more that you masturbate and ejaculate. So definitely, like, once or twice a week would

be really great. In terms of having sex with someone, I don't want people to be listening

in and going, I have to have sex once or twice a week with my partner.

That's not the case. You can use your hand. It's fine. You're still going to get what you

need out of it.

For sexual health.

For a health perspective. Yes. In terms of having sex with someone,

actually, I'll backtrack. In terms of self-pleasure, self-pleasure is like,

we are our best sexual partners. We will know our body best if we learn how to pleasure it,

if we learn different areas. And I encourage people to move beyond the genitals,

beyond the erogenous zones. Discover your whole body. What feels good from a,

sensory perspective? Is it pressure? Is it, you know, is it temperature plays,

so hot or cold? Is it using vibrators? Do vibrators make you feel more pleasure?

You can listen to orgasmic meditation, which really taps into the brain and how the brain

can kind of elevate your erotic experiences. Orgasmic meditation. That's new. I've never

heard of that. What is that? There's a really great one. I don't know.

Maybe not tell me the app, but...

No, it's not an app. I'm not going to tell you an app. I'm going to give you an example

of what it is. So I don't know any for penis owners, but for vulva owners, there's one

by a really great guy. And it's an hour long. And he basically coaches you how to touch your body.

And he's not so focused on the genital area. It's more about edging. So building up your

erotic experiences, your climax response. If we say a climax and an orgasm,

you know, ends at 10 with orgasm being the 10. It's about building up your pleasure. So we say,

I would say in his hour long recording, he'll bring you up to about a seven, bring you down

to like a three or four. So he's telling you, touch the inside of your thighs,

trace around your belly button, come up near your breasts, come down again. And it's amazing because

he helps you build up the anticipation in your body and the sensory,

experience. Usually you're listening with your eyes closed and he's just in your ear.

So then it's a lot around the audio and your imagination. And then you're building up this

climax and you're edging. And that is building the anticipation in your body that by the time

you reach orgasm at a 10, that orgasm is going to feel completely different to other types of

orgasms that you have, which have usually been kind of, you know, goal oriented. I need to have

an orgasm. I'm using a vibrator on myself or fingers or a mouth.

or something and, you know, within 25, 30 minutes you've had an orgasm,

this is an hour long of exploring your entire body

and how your whole sensory experience can build

up an amazing orgasmic erotic experience.

So is therefore sexual health part of just knowing yourself?

Yeah.

Just knowing your physical self and also your, I don't know

if it's emotional, but your mental self too.

Yeah, your sensual self.

Yeah, your sensual self.

Yeah, absolutely.

So and probably I think what you're saying is one

of the ways you can make that discovery is actually by, is yourself.

You have to make it yourself, exploration,

as opposed to someone else doing it for you.

Yeah, because then you're able to tell your sexual partner,

hey, I really like it when I get touched here

or I feel really good in this area of my body

or my nipples are a no-go but I love my lower back being touched.

So it actually helps you coach someone

else.

Yeah, so it's about, it's sort of like selfish,

if you know what I mean, but not in a bad selfish way.

It's sort of about understanding yourself.

It's putting yourself on a pedestal, as you should.

But as opposed to being, because sex can be a selfish thing.

Sometimes, you know, it's about get out of there,

I'm just going to do this and, you know, I'm going to ejaculate

and that's fucking it, I'm out of here.

Yeah.

But that's selfish.

But proper sexual health.

Healthiness is about being yourself with the other person.

It's about exploration.

Or on your own.

Yeah, it's about exploration and expectation, right?

So you might say, today's going to be a quickie

because I need to get out of here or today I want to watch you touch yourself.

I want to learn more about how you feel pleasure.

There's nothing more powerful than watching someone else please themselves.

It's such a beautiful experience.

It's so erotic and I highly recommend people do it more.

Be curious.

Move past your own ego.

And thinking that you're going to be the best lover that they ever had

because they're their own best lover.

And they're going to be able to coach you to be an even better lover

if you allow them and if you give them space to feel safe enough to show them,

show you what they like.

Can we do a couple of myths?

Or maybe they aren't myths, but you will tell me in a studied sense

about sexual health.

So, you know, it would seem to me that the worst distributors

of these myths...

They probably are porn sites to some extent.

But is penis size important?

Or is it a myth?

Look, I think it's more what you can do with your penis or your hands or your mouth

that's more important.

I think it's important to some people for sure.

But, I mean, overall it really depends on...

You can have someone with a giant penis who's really average in bed

because they're so focused on how big their penis is and how great that is.

At the end of the day, the penis doesn't vibrate.

It's nowhere near the clitoris.

So, is it going to make someone cum?

I don't know.

It really depends.

It depends on what you like and your own personal preference.

So, I don't think it's that important.

I think it's really what you can do with everything else

and who you are as an erotic being and what you bring to the table.

Maybe, but is it another...

Therefore, another myth is also, you know, that you can have sex

in a penetrative sense, you know, for half an hour,

before you cum.

In other words, you have to be on top of me for half an hour

before you've actually performed properly.

Then another thing promulgated by porn sites, like, you know,

to be a performance, it's like, you know, the performance should take 30 minutes

or the performance should take 15 minutes.

Does it matter how long the performance takes at all?

Yes, it does.

If you're having sex with someone who has a vulva,

then they need to be pleasured in partnered sex

for at least 25 to 30 minutes.

And I'm not just saying it's like jackhammering, pumping someone away.

Not for 25 minutes.

No, you need to be pleasuring them.

You need to be building up their arousal because for penis owners,

on average, it's like five to seven minutes

and then they can ejaculate in partnered scenarios.

For vulva owners, it's at least 25 to, you know, maybe 40, even longer.

So, you want to be giving them enough time, attention, pleasure that you can.

And if you want to be known as the...

If you want to be known as the best lover that they've ever had,

then you should be putting the effort into that.

It's important to be known as the best lover.

I mean, what is that?

I mean...

Only intellectually, like, is that important?

I think we all want to do our best.

And in terms of making someone else feel really good,

you want to do your best, but you should never assume what someone likes

or what someone wants because, you know, there are so many people that I see

who go in there and they're like, yeah, so I was, you know,

doing A, B, and C and throwing around.

I didn't use lube because I just used spit instead.

And, you know, I think she really enjoyed it.

And then I meet the partner and they're like,

he's just pumping away in there and it's horrible.

Like, there's no variation and there's nowhere near my clitoris.

He never goes down on me because he's so obsessed with sticking his penis in me.

And it's like, okay, there's like a little bit of discourse here, right?

So, how do we come to bring them to like a harmonious sense where we say,

you know what, let's create a new sex life that sounds even,

even more fun than what you've been doing.

And I'm not here to criticize anyone or make them feel ashamed for what they're doing

because they're just trying their best at the end of the day.

Is there a problem if someone just looks at sex in an intellectual way?

So, let's say, I don't know, their life is obsessed about engineering and science.

They want to make a discovery and they're in a partnership.

And they don't really care about it.

But they just do it maybe out of duty or they do it because it's something that should be done once a week.

You know, like, is that a bad thing for an individual to think that way?

And maybe it's not a bad thing that an individual should not necessarily expect to be in a relationship then

with a partner who wants to have sex.

Oh, so you're talking about like obligation sex?

Yeah, well, if someone is just generally speaking doesn't rank sex that high in their life

because they…

They have intellectual pursuits that are much, to them, much more important.

Okay, yeah, I understand.

I mean, it depends on what their situation is.

If you're with someone who really wants to have a fulfilling sex life and it's important for them

but you're not interested in sex, then there needs to be a lot of discussion around that

and, you know, how you're going to make that work.

And if you're not able to provide their needs, can you have a conversation around how they can get their needs met?

Because that's what I'm leading to.

So what does that conversation look like?

And if the other partner says, well, look, you know, I really dig it that you're trying to do this discovery

and you're completely, you know, committed to this process of doing what you're doing

but at the same time I want to have a certain sex life, I want some certain satisfaction.

Can I go out and get it from somewhere else?

I mean, is that a thing?

Yeah.

Or do it myself, whatever.

Yeah.

Just…

Yeah.

But somehow self-fulfill.

Yeah.

That is definitely a thing.

I think that it's becoming even more prevalent to be having these open discussions in a really positive way.

Yeah.

So we're talking about like ethical non-monogamy.

So we're…

Say that again.

Ethical non-monogamy.

Right.

So we are ethically making a choice that we're not just going to have sex with each other

but we might have other sexual partners, we might have a hookup or, you know,

while we're traveling, for example.

We might agree that we have sex, you know, once a week because that makes us feel good

or once a month because that keeps us connected and that's enough to meet my needs.

Or it's, you know, I'm going to go see a sex worker once a month so I can have a really

fun night, have my needs met and, you know, you keep going with whatever you're doing

over there, your intellectual pursuit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Those conversations are definitely becoming more and more prevalent as well because there's

a lot of people out there who don't want to…

have sex.

They don't have a high sex drive.

They're not that motivated by it but they love their partner.

They don't want to, you know, impact on their wants and needs and they're going to have

a really healthy conversation that can take months, sometimes years to have but that gets

them to a better place and that's why people come into therapy.

I was going to say because you would see those sorts of people as a rule and help them through

that process of negotiating sort of the pathways because it could be confronting.

It could be confronting for both of the individuals actually when I think about it but that would

be considered to be a normal process.

Yes.

Well, I mean that's for people who really want to stay together and make sure that the

other person is pleasured and has a really good quality of life as well.

There are a lot of people who can't talk about sex and who don't talk about it and

then their needs end up not getting met and then there's resentment and it's very hard

when there's too much water under the bridge.

It can be very hard to bring you out of that space as well.

And what about the other way when someone has like a crazy sex drive who needs to masturbate

three times a day and have sex every night and the other party doesn't want to do that?

What happens there?

Same thing.

You have a conversation around it but also with people who are, you know, using their

compulsions.

Or their needs to put pressure on their partner as well.

We often, well, I try and look and go, what are you trying to fulfill by having, you know,

by masturbating three times a day and wanting to have sex every single day?

Are you exercising?

Do you have other hobbies?

Are you having, you know, are you being intellectually stimulated as well?

Like what's being, what else can we kind of look into that's going to bring you some

pleasure that's not just masturbation?

I'm not saying that that's wrong.

I'm saying it is about negotiation.

But sometimes you can get, you know, you can put a lot of pressure on someone if that's

your kind of standard.

And if it is and your partner's not able to meet that, A, is that okay for you?

B, are you able to kind of back off and go, okay, maybe my sex drive might be way too

high for my partner.

I can satisfy myself.

It's not interrupting my work, my family life, you know, my friendships, et cetera.

So it's okay.

But if it is starting to.

If it's starting to impact on your relationships and your, you know, your work life or your

family life, that's when we need to go, is this a bit of a problem here?

Because that's what I was trying to get to.

Because I actually have a friend.

That sounds a bit weird.

I have a friend, but it's not me.

But I actually have a friend.

You've got one friend.

Great.

You know what I mean?

But I'm sure.

I was like, I've got a friend.

Yes, you're right.

But, but, and I actually have a friend who has lived his life like that all his life.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I, and he's not, you're not young these days.

In a relative sense.

And I wonder, is that abnormal sex drive?

Like, is that, is that like normal?

It sounds like it's his normal, right?

It's normal for him.

But is that normal across the universe of people?

He's a, he's a man.

So, I mean, is there sort of studies out there which says, you know, a, like, you know, if

I go get a blood sample and I want to look at my cholesterol level, it'll give me a range

of people that they've tested in all of Australia or maybe it's probably even larger than probably

Australasia or something like that.

And they'll say I fit in within a range.

Are there studies that have ranges of this sort of activity?

Like, you know, the number of times, is it, is it, is it that, is it, is sexual health

that close to other biological markers in our body?

For sure.

For sure.

Yeah.

And I mean, it depends on so many different factors.

It's like, it's stress, it's hormones, it's, you know, if that's his normal, that's his

normal, that's fine.

And then he can.

He can, you know, cultivate his life accordingly to what his desires are.

You wouldn't see this person getting with someone who doesn't like to have sex or, you

know, can only have sex once a week.

You would see them probably trying to orientate towards someone who also has a higher sex

drive.

So you don't get too much of a mismatch there.

But it might have started out that way.

But over time.

You're saying it's his normal though for most of his life.

It's him, him normally.

Yeah.

And perhaps his partner was the same.

Mm-hmm.

But over time, it's possible that his partner starts to get a little bit bored of this.

Yeah.

Like, she's had enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And particularly if it's, if she's gone through menopause and stuff like that.

Like, this guy's just turned 60.

So, yeah.

Yeah, then you can run into some challenges for sure.

Because menopause isn't a sexy experience.

For the woman.

Yeah.

As in menopause, yeah.

Yeah.

But also at 60, you have a 60% chance of erectile dysfunction as well.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He has that issue.

No.

No.

But if we move, if we're just talking in general, yeah, for a lot of people, they can

have a high kind of level of sexual activity when they get together.

Usually for the first 18 months to two years of a relationship, we have the limerence period

when all our endorphins are raging.

We can't believe that we found each other.

We're in love.

We want to have sex all the time.

We just want to be as close as possible.

And your hobbies turn into my hobbies and then blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then at two years, you kind of roll over.

And you're like, oh, you know, those endorphins have worn away.

And you're like, do I like this person?

Like, do I want to keep choosing this person?

And that's when you see a lot of couples break up.

It's a bit harder if you've gotten married during that, you know, that kind of limerence

period as well.

What do you call it?

Limerence.

Limerence.

It's a beautiful word, right?

It's a great word, but I've never heard it before.

So what does it mean?

It means that all your endorphins, so your oxytocin, your dopamine, the love, the obsession,

the beautiful kind of passion hormones.

It's a raging and you're really, really drawn to each other.

But both of you have this limerence together.

Limerence is between the two of you.

Yes.

As opposed to just you.

You can have it by yourself towards someone who might not know about it, but that's more

obsession, I would say.

So limerence is usually when you get with someone new and you get really excited about

it.

But I would say that for most people that wears off, I wish I could bottle limerence

and sell it because I think I would be worth it.

I would be worth it.

I would be worth it.

I would be worth it.

I would be worth a lot of money.

It would be just incredible.

But it is about, you know, how you are interacting from a biological and emotional point of view

towards someone.

And it's a beautiful feeling.

It's the most beautiful feeling in the world.

But after a period of time, it does wear off.

And that's when you have to go, okay, I'm going to continue to wake up and choose this

person.

And I've got to put the effort into this relationship, making them feel safe, making them feel seen,

heard, pleasured, satisfied.

You know, cared for.

And I really believe that you can keep that beautiful experience going or you can pick

it up later, even if you've lost it for a little bit.

If you just put the effort into knowing how your partner likes to be loved, adored, desired

as well.

We all tend to get kind of lazy in long-term relationships and we lose the juice for making

our partner feel adored and appreciated and, you know, cared for.

And when that gets lost, and it's very hard to feel like...

You desire the person that's not actually giving you enough attention or care or love

or, you know, is there for your needs or, you know, making you feel like you're safe

and that you can grow and flourish together.

You never want to feel like kind of neglected.

But for your partner with the high sex drive, especially, and this is very common, when

their partners have dropped off in sex drive, it can become a very difficult thing.

That's why you see infidelity happen.

That's why you see, you know...

People feeling pestered or pressured and that's when they come in and see me as well.

I like to work from a really positive place with my couples.

I try and cultivate a dynamic where there is no negativity, no criticism, and try and

develop the level of love and adoration between them so they do feel more obliged to lean

in towards each other rather than away from each other.

You hit on a very important word, that word love.

One of the most commonly used words.

It's for everything that exists in the world.

I love my footy.

I love my kids.

NRL.

Correct.

Where we last met.

But like, but is there a danger?

Well, okay, no, not a danger.

What's the relationship between that word love and sexual partner?

Desire.

Love and desire are different.

You can love someone and not desire someone, right?

You can love someone so much, but you know...

Can you desire someone and not love them?

Absolutely.

So that...

They're mutually exclusive.

Sometimes you can do both.

Yeah.

You can love and desire.

Yeah.

But it's not unusual to desire someone and not love them or love someone and not desire

them.

Yeah.

And so...

That's why you have one night stands.

You're not in love with the person you're having a one night stand with.

You're not in love with the person who's, you know, the porn star or the AI companion,

for example, that's on your screen, but you desire them.

You might, you know, desire a celebrity and think they're hot and you want to, you know,

fantasize about them.

But you're not in love with them, right?

Adoration can go very, very far.

Don't get me wrong.

And desire can go very far.

You can also love someone and you might be with them for a very long time and you've

lost the desire for them.

You know, we see our partners at their worst times, at their most vulnerable times.

We see them through, you know, heartache, through health conditions, through everything.

You know, I see a lot of people who have health issues, who have long-term partners, and they

go, you know what?

I can't be sexual right now.

I don't have it in me.

I'm really, really unwell.

I love my partner, but right now I don't even desire myself and I can't let my partner near

my body because I just feel so uncomfortable.

And that's okay.

And that's okay.

And what do we do about that?

How do we start?

I just want to start talking about it before we go, we have to take action on it, right?

So you see it a lot in long-term relationships where the partnership turns from like, you

know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know,

highly desirable and very, very loving into just loving and caring and a partnership and

a good long-term partnership where we're great parents.

We've raised great children together, but we don't really desire each other anymore.

So what do we do about that?

But can sometimes somebody who has great sex with somebody else confuse in their mind that

they actually think that they are in love with somebody?

Absolutely.

And how does that work?

Like chemically, what, what, what is there some?

Chemical gets released.

I mean, I've heard oxytocin, this word oxytocin is the, you know, the love chemical, whatever

that means.

And dopamine, the bonding one.

Yes.

Dopamine is a bonding one.

Is that right?

So it can make us delusional.

It can make us see things that we don't even see.

We might never see someone's flaws because we just feel so much towards them.

We feel all of this.

It's overwhelming too, isn't it?

It's overwhelming.

And is that because, you know, does it only arise once you, once you come?

Like the, the release of.

Skin on skin contact is a very.

Very powerful thing as well.

Yeah, right.

But is that, but doesn't oxytocin only get released once you ejaculate or once you climax?

No.

So, so the oxytocin gets released the whole time.

Is it in both male and female?

Yes.

Oxytocin?

Also, there's a lot of people who can't have an orgasm, right?

So you can still have all of those beautiful endorphins without actually reaching this

goal that you're meant to reach of, of climax and orgasm.

So you don't have to climax to get.

The release of endorphins.

The release of the endorphins.

But the endorphins.

The endorphins are a drug.

I mean, effectively like a drug.

Yeah.

It's a, our reward center of our brain sort of sending this out to us and saying, do,

do it again.

Again, because evolutionary sense, we, they want us to keep doing this stuff because we

need to keep producing children and keep the species alive, so to speak, in an instinctive

way.

What do you say to somebody who's in a relationship with somebody else and feels as though that

they are in love with that person, but there's, it's not a two way deal.

Yeah.

It's not a two way deal.

It's just like basically a sex deal from one point of view, one person's point of view,

but the other person is misinterpreting that as love.

Well, you.

Do you, do you have those sort of patients or I guess they're called patients.

Yeah.

I call them patients.

Some people call them clients.

Clients, patients.

I call them patients.

Just cause I worked in a hospital and I share a lot of my patients with other health professionals.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you have to have a pretty realistic chat then and say, why do you believe it's

love?

Or why do you believe it's infatuation?

Yeah.

Why do you think that they don't care about you in the same way?

What's, where's the evidence there?

What is infatuation?

Uh, infatuation is really just kind of, you don't see someone's flaws, you know, they're,

they're glowing.

They're up on a pedestal.

You see all of the wonderful things about them, including the things that you've created

in your mind about who they are and what they do.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

So, and is that, is that because you admire someone's talents or you might admire their

characteristics?

Yeah.

And as a result of that, you, and, and that's why.

Yeah.

There might be things missing in your life, in your personality and you start to get infatuated

with it.

Yeah.

And then, then infatuation culminates in sex.

I think a lot of the time, the people that we choose to love or, you know, desire or

be infatuated with, they're often mirrors of ourselves.

They're the things that we are missing from ourselves or something that might be kind

of, um, uh, kind of representative, uh, representative, sorry, of our childhoods and things that maybe

we loved.

Or things that we were missing from them.

We wish we had.

We're trying to heal.

Yeah.

We're trying to heal some things from our childhood with our, with our partner choices

as well.

Because we have to think about the fact that if we were in maybe a relationship or grew

up in a turbulent household, then maybe turbulence is what is familiar for us.

So moving away from a familiar position of turbulence, even though it's not safe towards

being with someone who is safe and secure, that's unfamiliar and that can be really,

really scary for some people.

I, I was once the, um, I wouldn't call it quite a victim, but like the subject at least

of a person who was suffering from erotomania, which I'd never heard of before.

And, um.

Talk to me about that.

Yeah.

It was, uh, I, I, I gotta be careful that I don't sort of cause a problem with the individual,

but.

Of course.

It's been on, it's been two occasions, different people.

Um, but the first occasion was that, uh, I started receiving gifts in the mail and, uh,

and then like, like, they were nice, like.

Were they good gifts?

No, no, not, not, I wouldn't call them valuable, but, um, like, and I just thought it was like

a fan call, let's call it, you know, someone was being nice and I, I wrote, I would get

my, yeah, but it looked like it was done for me, but write something, thank you very much.

It was very nice that you sent that.

And then, uh, you know, someone, this particular individual made a bag and sent the bag to

me like a, a female's bag.

Um, and I said, well, that's very good.

It was, it was pretty good.

And then send a drawing.

How did they get your address?

I'm easy to find.

I mean, I'm the chairman of a list of public company, they sent to my work address.

Office, okay.

Not your home address.

No, but then, but you know, it's not hard to find where I live on Google, um, you know,

cause I got in a bit of trouble one time in a punch up outside the front of my house and

it was all over the newspaper.

So, um, you know, it's not hard to find where I live.

I'm going to look that up after this.

It was in 2009, so I don't know, you have to go a fair way down, but, um, anyway, um,

uh, the next thing I know, I got a painting, uh, a drawing of my house where I live, but

it's drawn from the beach near my house, looking at my house from the beach and it was actually

really good.

And I, I, I'm stupidly, oh yeah, that's really good.

So I sent back and I said, thanks for that.

It's really good.

I'm not thinking about anything.

Okay.

The next thing I know, um.

Straight down the camera for this one.

The next thing I know, the individual turned up at my house.

Yes.

All the way from West Australia.

From where?

Australia.

West Australia.

Western Australia.

Perth and was Perth based.

Great.

Love that for you.

And, um.

I'm joking.

This is not appropriate.

And then, uh, I was in the backyard mowing the lawn actually.

And I, and my, um, partner at the time, my girlfriend, she, the front doorbell rung and

she went out to let the doorbell in and speaking to me and said, like, I'm here to see Mark.

Who are you?

And, uh, my partner said, well, who are you?

And, and, uh, she come down, got me and I went up and I didn't even know what this person

looked like.

So when I said, yeah, what's going on?

She said, oh, I come to see you.

Like, we had an appointment.

Yes.

And I said, uh, what appointment?

She said, I've been sending all this on.

I sent you the book.

And, of course, it looked pretty bad in front of my partner.

And she said, well, what are you talking about?

I, I was just being nice.

And, uh, anyway, it ended up in a, I said, look, you've got to go.

Please leave.

Got to, you know, and she wasn't going to leave.

And she started yelling and screaming.

I had to call the police in the end.

Mm.

Um, is this erotomania where someone feels as though they are in love with you as a result

of.

Yeah.

A simple response to that individual becoming like a, an approval of their, of them reaching

out to you.

It's like you're sort of telling them that they think that you're in love with them.

I think that would be, I, I'll be honest with you and I say this with kindness.

I would say there's a lack of boundaries on your behalf as well, though, there.

I'm not saying it's your fault that this has happened to you, but I'm saying that we can't,

um, we can't.

Uh, give validation to inappropriate behaviors.

Right.

So receiving, uh, and look, that's actually, that could have been a really scary situation.

You know, it, it is already scary.

Well, sometimes it does turn into scary situations.

I know.

I know.

Violence.

It's happened to me as well.

I've had, I have people, uh, I have a man who's in prison at the moment because he came

to my office to try and have sex with me because he thought I was a sex worker.

Oh, right.

I've had people come to my house.

We have a full suite.

I have a panic button next to my bed now.

Because.

Because we have people show up.

That stuff is, that's not an erotic thing from my perspective.

That's an infatuation.

That's inappropriate.

That is, um, unstable.

That's not okay.

And that kind of stuff is really, really dangerous and it is part of being, you know, in the

public eye, for example, um, but I would say boundaries are really, really important.

It's part of the reason why I have pulled back a lot from being online.

Because again, you know, you end up having media articles where your house is put online,

your, you know, my workplace is online, of course, so my patients can find out where

I do work and where I, you know, I have a full team there, but that kind of stuff, I

wouldn't put it in like the, the kind of spectrum of healthy love or sexuality or desire that

is unhealthy and that kind of stuff, you know, there needs to be some serious boundaries

around.

No.

No, I'm not going to interact with someone who sends things to my, to my house that are,

you know, uninvited or, um, who does rock up at my work because that's going to be, that

could potentially escalate.

Sometimes it's out of your control, however, when someone rocks up at your house because

they found it online.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

But I probably did encourage it.

It was in 2009.

We're talking about a long, 15, 16 years ago, 15 years ago, but I was-

It was probably a bit of a wake up call.

Well, totally.

I mean, I've just been nice.

Oh, that's really good drawing.

Well, that's a nice bag.

But my second, my EA sent it back, but it doesn't matter.

Um, I learned a lesson from it all, but this, um, because I'm thinking about you now, being

in this world, I'm not in this world, but you're in this world, my world's a bit different

to yours.

Um, it must be fraught with danger.

Like you have to be, you as a sexologist, as a sexual therapist, sex therapist, um,

have to be really careful of this sort of stuff.

Extremely careful.

Yeah.

Extremely careful.

Does that do, does that affect you?

I mean, do you get to a point where you think, fuck, what am I doing this for?

Like, uh-

No, I know what I'm doing it for.

I know I'm here to help people.

But why are you doing it?

Can you tell me?

Um, because I, I really have always grown up wanting to help people.

I grew up in a, in a household where we did help people, my parents.

As in healing or help?

Um, healing, um, but also just overall quality of life.

So I have, um, I have two beautiful parents.

Um.

And I have an intellectually disabled sister.

She's 11 months older than me who has an intellectually disabled husband and, um, you know, my brother-in-law

as well.

His brother is also disabled.

So I grew up a lot in the disability community and then I have two younger brothers.

Um, and my parents raised us helping other people.

So we used to travel to Papua New Guinea and, um, build women's shelters there and hospitals.

So we just grew up with a very open household.

It was the place where people went.

And, um, you know, there was a, a, a lot of, uh, I mean, we weren't, we weren't selfish.

We were taught not to be selfish.

We were taught in a way to be selfless.

So I've had to learn a lot around boundaries in my adult years because that wasn't something

that I learned when I was younger.

Um, I always wanted to help people in the sense that I really understand people from

a psychological point of view.

I would say it's innate in me.

I'm a very empathetic person.

Um, and I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can,

I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can, I can,

I think

also because I'm neurodiverse, because I have 80 ADD, it's, it's easy to pick up on little

tendencies in people where you can see if they're uncomfortable or not.

So for example, last night, you know, at the event, I had a woman, it was a dinner event

look at a flight attendant, she was waiting for the plane to get going and she was standing,

that you could buy a ticket to for public consumption.

I have a bodyguard there.

I don't organize that, but my team at Audible does

because you are at risk of someone who is infatuated coming along

and potentially a problem happening,

especially because I'm a young woman who talks about sex,

who is good-looking.

So I understand that you can get people looking at you from,

she creates a safe space to talk about eroticism and desire

and she's attractive.

Maybe they get confused with the fact that I'm a therapist

and not a sex worker, and I'm very pro-sex work,

but it's the same dangers that you come across in any industry

where you talk about help, sex, and you're there caring for someone.

As a woman, you do have those extra layers of danger

that can come with the job.

And I think that for myself, there were a few years,

especially my early years,

of being online or on Instagram, for example, or in the media.

Boundaries were crossed so many times in terms of people expecting me

to give them from a very low-level boundary cross advice

when I've never met them before and I'm out in public,

like at the event we were at last week.

I actually have so many questions for you.

I really want to ask about ABC India.

I'm like, okay, great, you can book a session.

But that's something I've had to learn,

to teach my staff, to tell people I'm not here for free advice

for someone that I don't know

and I have no context as to their background.

Second of all, you know, you have to draw a line

between what you share.

I used to share way too much of my private life on my social media

because there was kind of a merging of sexologist

and, you know, someone who is kind of in the media

for business.

And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this.

And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this.

And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this.

And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this.

And then after having, you know, a few dangerous scenarios happen,

then I was like, I just can't be online like this.

I don't want people to know where I am, where I'm staying,

what city I'm in, you know.

So everything, I mean, I really only post about work these days,

not even, you know, my personal life at all.

And, for example, last week I was out at a bar and someone said,

oh, I know that you live in this area and I actually live

two streets away from you.

And I was like, okay.

So you just go, oh, yeah, great.

I'm not there much.

Oh, my God.

I'm always travelling.

I'm hardly ever there.

And then I have to always, when I travel,

I have to get the guard dog sent away to a special place.

Well, I live with people, you know.

I have friends that live with us because my partner

and I travel a lot.

And I do have a guard dog, a small one.

But I have a good security system.

That's scary that I have to live like that.

Well, it is scary because sexuality is a very private thing.

But it's become very public.

And do you ever find that these things, you know,

too much about the topic and then you can start to overanalyse

your own self in relation to, you know, how you're going?

I think I've definitely been there.

I don't think that there's ever a point where there's too much.

I think I have to always remain curious because at the end

of the day I know nothing.

I know nothing about people.

And I really think it's important to never assume that you know

what someone is going through or what's happening in their life

or what's happening in their life.

Or why they are in the situation they're in.

That's something I learned very, very early on and something

my mom taught me.

You never assume what's happening in someone's life

because you have no idea.

I think for me, analyzing my own life, yeah, of course I do that.

Of course I do that because it's good for me to reflect on myself

and my own life and always try and develop and be better

and learn gratitude and learn how to self-regulate.

I do therapy twice a week.

I think I pay my therapist rent, but she's so worth it.

I love her.

She kicks my ass.

But you have to learn a lot about boundaries and you have

to do it really fast because otherwise you're already going

to end up in sticky situations regardless, but you can end

up in worse situations for sure.

Can I touch on the last thing?

I met you last week at the footy.

Yes.

And I met you with Dylan and we're mates.

What's it like being with such, for me, he's like a superstar.

I love him.

He's a superstar.

We're talking about Dylan Alcott, of course.

Mm-hmm.

The guy's like, oh, he's a superstar.

Mm-hmm.

Such a big personality is ridiculous.

It's just ridiculous.

What's it like being with a guy like that given that you have your own career,

your own popularity?

How do you manage those processes?

I mean, you both travel a lot and you're both in huge demand.

How do you manage not being competitive but at the same time being supportive?

I mean, how do you manage those processes being with someone like him

I mean, I don't really talk about my relationship too much because of my privacy, you know, concerns

because I want to keep it private.

But at the end of the day where, you know, I'm his biggest cheerleader and vice versa,

there's no competition from my perspective because we're both just trying to change the

world for the better, him in his own right with disability inclusion and myself in terms

of mental health and sexuality.

Yeah.

Great answer.

Yeah.

But that's so well prepared.

Like, you just floored me.

I was hoping she'd give me something to, a good sort of generous vein to chase down.

There you go.

There's a boundary put in place.

You just put the shutter straight up at the same time.

You open the gate but you put the shutter up.

Very good.

And I guess that's probably a great example of how you operate in relation to your patients.

So I operate every single day, yeah.

But also you have to operate that way in your own life.

Yeah.

So I think one of my key lines is I'm not here to talk about.

But me, I'm here to talk about you.

Yeah.

Well, sometimes that happens to me in the show and, but you all got your own podcast.

And you know how podcasts work.

Yes.

Tell me about your podcast before we wrap up.

So what's your podcast called?

It's called Sex Therapy Sessions with Chantelle Otten.

Wow.

I know.

Who came up with that name?

I know, not me, but it's good.

Look, it's actually, it's phenomenal.

It's quite groundbreaking.

You can, you know.

Where is it first?

Where do I get it?

Audible.

It's exclusively on Audible.

It's free to listen to.

We've just completed season two.

It's a very long process to record it.

It takes months because you're listening in on people's therapy sessions, people who volunteer.

Oh, real therapy.

This is real.

Okay.

So these are people who volunteer for the project.

I've never met them before in my life.

You know, we put up, well, I put up usually for each season, a application on my social media.

If you would like to be part of this project, especially now people know what the project

is, they can apply and know, you know, what they're kind of getting into.

You want to be part of Sex Therapy season three, which is hopefully coming up, you know,

please send in your application and we get thousands within 24 hours.

I'm saying like 3000 within 24 hours.

How many eps per series?

So usually around 12.

We usually have to, we'll record like 12 to 15.

15 because we might have to cut a few depending on what happens or what comes out.

Because of course I deal a lot with complex trauma or, you know, I'm very protective of

whoever comes on the podcast.

You don't see their face running like that.

No, no, no.

But you know, if something is too triggering, then it's not going to come on the podcast.

And of course there are triggering things in there, but I don't want any of the people

who do participate in the podcast to leave and go, wow, I've just built so much personal

stuff.

That for that to be out in the world, even though it's anonymous, that's giving me more

anxiety.

So I make calls around how the episodes are curated.

I help produce them, but we record two patient sessions and a follow-up call.

So it's around three hours of recording to get down to a 45 minute episode.

So one session, the first time I meet the patients is in the podcast room.

So it looks like a normal therapy room.

It's two couches.

We have overhead mics and lapel.

My dog does come in with me sometimes, but he's not allowed to stay in the studio because

he snores a lot and you can hear it over the mic, but it's a very warm opening place.

And we do have the producers in the next room as well.

So they're really well taken care of.

It's all anonymous.

And you listen to real life scenarios.

So we have episodes on like sex after childbirth, self-worth, boundaries, self-esteem, kink,

pleasure, you know, different religious and cultural backgrounds.

It's absolutely fascinating.

And it's such a pleasure for me to be able to meet the people who volunteer for this project.

And is, we're getting wound up and you know how the process works, but is this your way

of dealing with all the questions you would otherwise get asked if you're walking around

in public, if you're in a pub, if you're at a restaurant, if you're at the food, if you're

whatever the case may be, someone goes up to you and says, listen, can I just ask a quick

question?

Is this your way of dealing with it?

And you just say, let's go and listen to the podcast because I'll probably cover that topic.

You know, is this, I mean, are you trying to distribute your knowledge by doing this

podcast series?

No, I'm there to normalize topics for other people.

So it's not about my knowledge at all.

It's about other people's experiences because for every one person that comes to see me,

there are thousands more people with the same question.

So actually you don't hear a lot of me on the podcast.

You do hear me gently, you know, giving, providing therapy and giving kind of coaching

or feedback, but, and reflections and home play.

But it really is about people sharing their story and other people listening in and going,

I'm not alone.

I'm not alone because I have the same concerns.

I'm not a weirdo.

I'm nothing wrong with me.

It's so normal for this topic to come up.

Absolutely.

Chantelle Otten, thanks very much for coming on to Straight Talk.

That was awesome.

Thank you.

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