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I'm Mike Boris, and this is Straight Talk.
2004 Willie Mason.
Who'd you play in that game?
Always been dying to know this.
Were you always as big as you are now?
No, but I was always rangy and long, you know what I mean?
I reckon 16, I was about 6'1", and like, just say 95 kilos.
Then I grew to like 6'5", and 115 kilos.
Touching a weight or doing anything.
The defining moment where I put things in perspective is probably,
like when I buried my father at 7'8".
You buried your father at 7'8"?
So shit like that is very defining for your mental, right?
And I always put things in perspective.
I just never could get down that much, or never be high that much.
This is a rollercoaster of a ride, right?
The highs are here, the fucking lows are here.
Get back to the middle as quick as you can.
What does it give you, doing podcasts?
I mean, what do you get out of it?
It gives you a platform to speak on anything you want,
without it being taken out of context.
Like, you can say something to me.
Oh, you said this.
Watch the whole podcast, mate.
Well on a straight talk, mate.
Thanks for having me.
Fucking long time since we've seen you, dude.
Remember you, the wizard?
Got us the rings for the Origin 03 and 04,
and we went up to Byron.
But I always tell everyone about that.
I said, when I first got into the Origin team,
it was just that culture of winning.
That's what they go into now.
Billy Egg was the coach.
Yeah, Billy, Sticky, Rick, that whole sort of era Gus.
Yeah, that was good times, man.
He was in the side, actually.
Actually, I remember you walking around my house.
Yeah, in Byron Bay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I put a barbecue on for the team,
and I was sponsoring the side at the time.
But I remember you walking through my house,
and you come out and you said,
fuck, how did he get all this shit leaked out?
What am I going to do to get this in?
And Gaz was, like, really fucking impressed.
That might have been the last year
you ever played for Rugby League, I think.
Didn't he move on to Rugby League?
No, no, that was in 04.
04, he played five, six, and then he took off seven.
To the pink side, to the Rugby Union.
Yeah, because I remember,
I hope I hadn't sort of poisoned his view on the world,
because he went off to get more dough.
He went overseas, didn't he?
And by the way, I think it was Clive Churchill medal,
2004, Willie Mason.
Who'd you play in that game?
The Roosters, yeah.
That was the first time I actually felt bad of winning something,
because all those guys are my mates for years.
Like, Minichiello, I've known Mini since I was 12.
A lot of those guys, Kroc, we all come through the same system.
In Newcastle, and then playing against each other,
like when you're 17 years old.
We were like 24 then, right?
We're just still young men.
But like, even, it was great.
It was a great feeling winning that grand final, right?
But it's just like, when you watch the replays,
you don't realize how distraught the other team is.
And it was one of those games where we went down to the last play.
So I could be sitting here going, loser,
not a Clive Churchill winner, not anything like that,
a loser of a grand final.
When it comes down to one play.
Hodger was in that side.
He was on the bench.
He ran on, and Sonny was on your side.
And I remember we were getting,
Sonny was telling us something fairly hard.
And I remember thinking, Sticky was our coach, I'm pretty sure.
I remember Nick Politis and I were sitting up about four seats back
from where the players were.
And I remember saying to Nick,
fuck, Sticky, get Justin Hodges out there
and get him to run at Sonny.
Like, I just want Hodger.
I don't want him to go in there and stop the momentum you guys have.
Because I could feel it.
I could feel the momentum was going against us.
What's it like to win it?
What's the most important thing for a rugby league player?
Origin, winning for the Bulldogs at the grand final
or playing for the country?
It's three things that are right up there, right?
When you're a young kid, you look at,
like I was watching the Canberra sides
and the Bulldogs sides in the 90s
because I was a teenager in the 90s.
So that's what you want, right?
You just want to play as a team member, right?
You just want to, you win, you go to battle,
you train every single day with these guys,
blood, sweat and tears, all that kind of stuff.
So when you get that grand final win,
it's ridiculous, right?
Like, because it's a proper team effort.
It's more individual when you get to these higher accolades, right?
With the Australian team, it's like, okay, well,
you look at yourself as one of the best players in the world.
That's my accolade.
It's like, it's more individual.
And then you just only have to do your job
when you're playing for Australia.
You know what I mean?
Like, that's why you see these players who play so good for,
because you just got to do your job.
Really, you just do what you do.
That's sort of a bit like,
I've heard people say that about Origin 2.
And Origin 2, you're playing with the best players.
You're here for a reason.
We're not sitting here going to overcoach you.
When you do what you're doing in club,
just it's hard to put it on in Origin
because you're playing against the best.
Even in test football as well,
you're playing against the best players.
So when you play in club football,
you're training every single day with these guys.
And just say, if you come through the system
like we did at the Bulldogs,
you got 12, 13 blokes there
that have been aiming for the same goal
for four or five years.
And you finally achieve it.
That's why you see such like emotions
and everything like that when it's final,
that whistle's gone.
You know, it's like, we actually did it.
So that's why you always see those plays.
Like, you can't believe it happened
because that's your ultimate goal as a club
So we want to win the grand final.
You don't want to get to prelims.
You don't want to do all that sort of stuff.
And if you remember back then,
like in 02, we got the salary cap.
03, we got pumped by you blokes in the prelim.
04, Coffs Harbour,
we were at Scandal, all that shit.
So all that stuff was like around.
And if you come through that system,
like me and Corey Hughes
and all these guys, about 10 of us,
like it meant a lot more, right?
Than your average game.
Do you mind explaining, Willie,
like because not many people ever get the experience
that I was lucky to see it.
And you don't know it until you sort of feel it,
that sort of thing.
Often when a club wins a game,
wins a grand final,
the cameras are showing them singing the team song.
If you win the origin,
but they never go into the losing,
explain what it's like to sit in the sheds
after losing an origin series or an origin game
or losing the grand final.
I'm one and done in the grand final.
So I've been lucky with that.
I've lost some big games,
like playing for Australia and like finals and in origin.
That's the most disappointing, right?
Like it's, it's, I can't really explain it.
whatever the other end is from when you're winning,
And some people take it really, really deep.
I really don't try
and get down that much.
Like when I was playing,
cause I knew it was like,
if you got lost in origin game on a Wednesday,
you're playing on Friday.
So you're supposed to be the best player for the Bulldogs
or the Roosters or whatever team I was with.
that was my mentality.
this is a rollercoaster of a ride, right?
The highs are here.
The fucking lows are here.
Get back to the middle as quick as you can.
but where's that come from, Willie?
I just had that mindset all the time, right?
I can't really stay up here too long.
I was thinking when I was early on in my career,
don't be fucking doing this too much.
Don't be here too much.
Just stay in the middle.
Get back as quick as you can.
So I always had that,
like that mindset.
it sucked losing origin,
I've got to play,
I've got to play again in two or three days.
So get your shit together.
But does that sometimes suggest that,
some people can be like that,
but not everybody is.
And does that suggest sometimes that you,
you are looking at this as,
and I'm not underplaying it,
but this is the game.
This is the game I'm in.
We're going to win something,
and we're going to lose something.
Therefore making Willie Mason being a really practical dude,
and then somebody else who might be extraordinarily badly affected by it,
who has a shit game the following Friday,
that's someone who is over emphasizing the importance of winning versus losing.
And they are not practical,
and they just lose their shit.
It's just a game.
it's just a game.
We had ample opportunity for 80 minutes to win the game.
It's disappointing as it is.
I'm shattered after games,
but it's not the end of the world.
I always put things in perspective.
I think that's what it is.
If I can just wheel back now to you as a kid,
I've always been dying to know this.
Were you always as big as you are now?
but I was always rangy and long.
You know what I mean?
it was just really long,
it's usually like,
like just normal.
I used to play in the backs,
I used to play fullback.
I used to play wing and center.
I've been in Newcastle.
So you're a Newcastle boy?
I was sort of rangy.
And then from age 16 to 17,
I was about six foot one.
just say 95 kilo,
a hundred kilo maybe.
Then I grew to like six foot five and 115 kilo without touching a weight or doing anything.
That was just genetics,
Same as my brother.
Happened to my brother.
He was about the same height.
And then about the same age,
he's six foot seven.
A hundred and thirty kilo.
But like stacked,
it was just genetically.
And I started doing weights.
I was in the system already.
Played with a hundred mariners,
all that kind of stuff.
And I think the distinct,
the defining moment where I put things in perspective is probably when I buried my father at 17.
You buried your father at 17?
So shit like that is very defining for your mental,
And I always put things in perspective.
I just never could get down that much or never be high that much.
life's life is very precious.
I buried my dad at 17.
So I don't think there's much more that life's going to really throw at me.
That's going to really rattle me.
Were mum and dad big?
Dad was an Aussie.
He was Australian,
but he was about 6'2",
Big for an Aussie man.
Mum's Tongan and so on.
I've got cousins that are six foot six,
it's just the genetics,
And in terms of athleticism,
were you a runner?
I used to run all the time.
Like a state runner.
As in 100 meters,
all that sort of stuff.
And how did you number the forwards then?
I was in the backs,
I was playing centers.
And then I just sort of grew.
I was getting like,
the back rows in the nineties,
like the Gordon Tallis's and that,
they were my favorite players.
they're all back rows.
They're not centers.
I'm not built like that.
like Steve Renoff and all those quarter guys that were like,
they were my favorite players.
I'm getting more range here.
And I've still got my pace.
where's the pathway to get to the top?
I'm thinking back rows,
115 kilos still can run.
Then sit on an edge,
still had the skillset.
and I played a heap of basketball and a heap of other sports.
And it just sort of was the perfect sort of storm.
Athleticism was good.
So if it's a footy IQ,
I'm going to come back to that in a second.
who was the first club to bring you down?
Do you remember who it was that scouted you?
So remember Super League,
I was with the Mariners when I was younger,
And Newcastle didn't want anybody who played with the Mariners to go back to Newcastle,
which sucked because I'm a 16 year old kid.
I haven't played first grade or anything like that.
Father just died.
Don't really want to leave.
I would have played for Newcastle for my whole career just to stay near my family.
And so I had to go down to Sydney at like a 17,
Michael Hagen had to pick me up nearly every day because I wasn't going to play.
So imagine a 17 year old kid from housing commission in Toronto West,
just lost his father,
is chased after by every single club.
And I was just like,
I don't even want to play.
So Michael Hagen.
So Hage was the coach for the,
for the Mariners.
But he also played for the Berries.
Bobby Hagen was the CEO.
So Bobby Hagen was the CEO.
Hage was like sort of in limbo.
What was he going to do?
Then he went down to Canberra,
So he was either trying to get near Canberra or the Bulldogs.
Cause he knew I didn't want to go too far away from Newcastle,
Cause my mom's still there.
The youngest was one year old.
I'm one of eight,
five sisters and two brothers.
So the cards that I got dealt then were like,
he ain't going to go to Canberra.
He's not going to North Queensland and all this sort of stuff.
guys like Tim Sheen's ringing me when I was like 16.
I'm not going there.
you turned to the Bulldogs,
you're the coach then?
He was the coach,
he died quite young.
He must've had a genetic defect in his heart or something.
Cause the heart attack is on his tail.
I remember him cause folks in my age and a lot of my mates who I went to
school with out there and I'm playing footy with him,
and a lot of my other mates,
but they used to always rave about this guy,
folksy who was like a complete disciplinarian for himself with himself.
What was it like for you to turn up in that environment?
And it was like different.
just say within Newcastle,
I wasn't full time or anything.
I was just a young kid playing under 17s for the Mariners.
Then you come down there as a,
as a big recruit.
And if it was now,
like if it was now in today's time,
it would have been big news,
but because it's late nineties,
no one really cared that much.
He's still a young kid,
still have a good time in flag,
but like he was the head coach and he recruited me.
Cause he's on from the totally other side from what he is.
like train harder than anyone.
I'm not saying I didn't train.
He wasn't a natural athlete.
that's the thing.
So football wise,
totally different on this young kid from Toronto West,
all that sort of stuff.
He's same position as me,
totally different body types,
totally different characters.
So we butted heads a lot,
just like me being a young kid and what he wanted,
but I was still working my ass off for him because I just wanted to get his,
like his approval.
Like he was like a,
like a father figures of all of us.
What period are we talking about?
just the end of super league.
he passed away in 98.
so just give us a bit of an insight as to the cannery Bankstown Bulldogs culture around
And folks of course was married to one of,
Bullfrog's daughter.
the Anderson boys were running around.
They were also married to,
some of the Bulldogs.
It was very connected,
And the Hughes family,
Bullfrog was Graham Hughes's uncle.
Graham Gary Mark because,
they married Graham's dad.
what are you saying there?
I was not a Canterbury supporter.
My dad hated him.
And I reckon if he was alive,
I'd never would have played for Canterbury.
I would play for St.
He would have forced me to play for St.
so I was always grown up and I didn't like the Bulldogs because I just,
I didn't know him.
And he's just like,
they're full of Catholics and this and that.
We were brought up Catholic.
I don't know where he got all that stuff from family club,
I remember him like,
this is like in my teens.
I don't really want to go to this club then.
So I was real hesitant on going to the club,
but it was the closest thing to Newcastle.
but when you got down to Canterbury,
it was a pretty impressive joint in those days,
especially like that,
that whole family environment that whether it was Catholic or not,
but the whole family environment,
it was well run by,
like whether we like him or not,
he was a good chairman,
relatively speaking.
He was a tough chairman.
Like for success.
It was great being there as a young kid.
Like it was a family club.
they took care of mom.
They took care of all the younger kids.
but I really remember that.
They brought mom down.
They'll put her in a hotel.
They look after all the kids.
They pay for all the tickets,
all that kind of stuff.
It was unbelievable.
They're always about the family.
I remember doing deals with Punchy Nelson.
you like it here young fellas?
He has another two years.
It was that sort of old school,
still involved with the club.
You know what I mean?
And that's what I'm still like.
I just still love the club.
I want it to go back to that,
but it's never going to go back to those days,
it's very professional now and everything.
the camera just got removed.
so it's always been,
it's always been like that.
it's sort of a political joint.
It's very political.
Since when you lose your strong leader,
who builds this strong culture,
as soon as that strong leader leaves,
and this has been Canada,
ever since it's just been one aspirational person after another,
trying to take control of the joint and the,
unfortunately all fighting amongst themselves.
so I'm going to ask you this,
how important is it?
Was it for you in 2004 that Canterbury's administration,
that in other words,
people are sort of in the club,
running the club,
the board and all that sort of stuff.
How important is it for a club players to perform well relative to how stable it is at the top of the joint?
I always talk to younger players now.
it's so important that it all starts from the top,
from the chairman,
all the board members to the CEO,
to the football manager,
all that kind of stuff.
It's all got to be in sync.
Everyone needs to be on the same page.
I think that's where they're heading now in 2004.
We were like that from when I was there at the club from 98,
started falling off the back end because they kept switching and changing CEOs,
people getting sacked,
this and that board members,
that's probably one of the reasons why I did leave.
but it was so important.
I know how good club is supposed to be run because I was there and I was part of it,
that's the only things I can compare to the roosters run brilliantly.
Newcastle run brilliantly.
all these clubs that are top notch clubs,
they're like that Melbourne,
like all the top teams like that Penrith now,
they got their shit together.
the pinnacle now,
but the roosters are always been like that.
I've had two years at the roosters and it's two of the most enjoyable years of my life.
And I still got connections there.
I still know Nick and all these,
all these guys that are on the board.
That's what the pet,
the club's got a lot of power.
but as a young bloke,
when you were Canterbury and you went and when you win the grand final,
like as a young bloke in 2004,
did you sort of recognize the importance of a stable administration at the time?
or is that something more on point of reflection?
I did at that time because it changed around about there because the Bobby Hagan left and they bought Malcolm node in and Steve,
Steve mortal was in and out.
you know what I mean?
Like we won when he was CEO.
That's not a reflection on him.
That's a reflection on the plane group.
He was an ex news limited guy.
He took our points off us later on.
but that's the thing,
I think the club were trying to please everybody once we got done from the cat.
we'll show everyone like,
We'll get a guy from news limited.
Just trying to please everybody instead of being like bulldogs.
but he wasn't a bulldog though.
That's what I'm saying.
like I'm used to like the,
the Bobby Hagan's and the Steve,
Steve Morton has been CEO,
proper bulldogs people.
Cause they played there.
I love the joint.
And then they're all,
a lot of them would have come through the system there.
and I get it like why they're like that.
Because I come through the system there and I'm sort of like that now.
I have an affinity for the club because I know how it's supposed to be run.
And it's in that sort of way now,
Even though they've changed the chairman,
the ability there with,
I think Aaron Warburton does a really good job.
He's got some really good board members there,
the coaching staff,
everybody around it.
The only thing that's not clicking is the wins.
Not on the field or not yet,
it takes a little bit,
It does take a little bit.
Everyone's very impatient now.
So instant gratification,
sort of society that we have right now where,
it's going to take a little bit.
I can't remember now whether you were in the,
in the side of the Gus coach in origin.
You were in that game.
let's talk about the Gus factor.
but there's been a,
the media knows there's been a small fallout
between him and Nick,
but Gus and Nick were like that for a million years.
And I don't like it.
I don't like the fact that there's been a fallout,
but I'm sure it's mendable because reasonable blokes.
he was at Penrith for a long time.
Look at Penrith now.
And then Gus is at the,
which is sort of where he started a million years ago.
he started at Penrith,
He was there in 1980.
and what does Gus bring?
He's got an aura and he's got like,
I've had a relationship with Gus since I was 17.
When I was that young kid,
when I was playing at the board,
he was been trying to recruit me all the time.
Trying to get me the roosters in 98,
trying to get me the roosters my whole time
when I was at the Bulldogs.
He coached me when I was at the origin,
so we had a really good relationship all the time.
So my relationship with Gus hasn't really changed.
I'm on the administration side,
the coaching staff and everything like that.
He just brings like,
he's got so much experience,
whether it be on boards,
whether it be like the NRL,
like just with football,
He's been there ever since.
So he understands the evolution of the game.
Just the experience that he has,
He scares the shit out of everyone.
Cause he's got a demeanor.
He does have a demeanor, right?
So if you don't know him,
For 20 plus years,
you will shit yourself.
Because I'm thinking,
I'll put my shoes,
put my shoes on a younger kid,
A 17 year old kid trying to make it in the club.
Like he was in the video session the other day.
No one said a word.
this is the SG ball pathways kid.
And Gus is up the corner like that.
When I walked in,
I wonder they're not talking.
I didn't know that Gus is up the back,
but he has that aura and you know,
people want to please him.
They want to appease him all the time
because you want to get his,
tick of approval.
Yeah. He's a good kid.
he's a good operator.
Cause he has that demeanor.
Do you think he's,
you think it's because also he's perceived
as being extraordinarily powerful?
that is the word powerful.
He has an aura and he's got power.
Let's have a look at his power.
cause it's really interesting coming from someone like,
who's intelligent,
who's in a good observer,
particularly even at a younger age,
I didn't realize that you were observing these things
when you're a young fellow,
but someone like Phil Gould being so powerful,
what are the sorts of traits that a powerful person
like him sort of expresses?
is it because he doesn't say much?
I was about to say that because I talked to him,
And I like talking football.
And we talk football.
He would just listen,
sit there and listen and listen and listen,
and then give his bit at the end.
You know what I mean?
Like it's a great,
it's a technique that not many people can master,
He's got techniques.
Everything's like a,
everything is very,
he's either like this,
Completely distracted.
Completely off you.
So he could put you off.
you're in there and you're trying to be real serious with Gus.
He could be on his phone.
That's no disrespect to you.
It depends how you perceive it,
You might think that's rude as hell.
You're in a meeting here,
and I've been in meetings like that.
And Gus is just like that.
he'll get distracted and he'll show you something on the phone,
but it could be the best young kid in the state.
Could be the best young kid in Fiji or Hawaii or whatever it
But he's just in that moment,
if you didn't know him and then we have a big meeting here
and then he gets on his phone.
What do you think?
But what are you going to do when it's Gus?
You're not going to.
And he'll think he knows he's got that power.
You're not going to walk out of that meeting.
Cause you need him.
Do you think he's earned that power?
I think he's earned it.
he wouldn't be doing this 20,
The Gus can do that.
I was going to say,
Phil Google can do that.
Craig Bellamy can do that.
Bennett can do that.
There's only three.
Sticky is a different personality.
Sticky would never do that.
but also Sticky wears his feelings on his sleeve.
And I guess right there.
He's very engaging.
Whereas the others don't give you too much.
But then he's engaging stick,
But their belly and that they're from cut from that cloth.
They'll sit there and just observe.
And they'll just like,
and then they'll give their spiel.
But Wayne's the best like that.
Did you think it,
do you think it's a performance for these people?
Maybe they become so used to it being successful.
It has become them where they become that,
that process or that style.
Or do you think it's because they know that if I sit here
and don't say much to Willie,
just listen and make a pause before I say,
what else I'm going to say that I can get his attention.
What do you reckon it is?
Well, I think with me,
Just say with Wayne,
I've had a great relationships since I was about 23,
them with the Australian sides.
And he just understands me.
And I think he has that aura with everybody.
Like he knows that if I'm talking to him,
even when he was coach of South,
And he would leave,
he lived in a shiftly.
I'll just go over to his house and just say,
I would rattle off some ideas about coaching and this,
that was before I got into coaching.
So I'd always ask him about what I'm thinking before I even
there's only a couple of people that I call to need.
If I need advice about football or life,
it's probably Gus and it's Wayne.
I've got those two about life.
Like when it comes to footy and that.
I have a good relationship with Bellamy,
but not like that.
And do you think Ivan's going to end up in that territory?
Cause Ivan's sort of starting to,
starting to work and Robbo a little bit too.
Cause Robbo doesn't have that much to say.
He's quite economic with his terminology.
It looks like to me,
they're all following one path and I don't know whether
Robbo's quite a quiet,
fairly quiet guy anyway.
Ivan's not a very talkative guy.
It's hard to get him to say too much,
but so maybe it's these leaders in our game,
the ones who are most powerful once they've achieved some
big outstanding things and done some great things like all
of those people that we just mentioned,
unless you're the sort of dude who is,
quiet and reserved and thoughtful and very produced.
Maybe you don't bring that aura.
No, I think they're good listeners, right?
Because they know personalities.
They all know my personality and I'm very open book about a
lot of things and I'm straight to the point,
all that kind of stuff.
So they listen, right?
Then they'll bounce back some ideas.
So they know what I'm like.
So if you thought I was an introvert,
I wasn't very confident in what I was saying or anything
Maybe they would express a lot more,
but because they know what I'm like and what I am as a
person, I've never really changed like that.
They just let me talk.
And that's the sort of perception I have with them.
They're good listeners.
And they give me good advice.
Like great advice.
They give you good advice.
Like when I asked for like their rebuttal is like,
I'm like, oh shit.
And also they're open to talking to you.
Why do you think they want to,
they're happy to talk to Willie Mason?
there's every year there's,
500 players go through and then every year there's another
like there's new players all the time.
Why does Willie Mason resonate with people at that level?
What have you done?
Yeah, I don't know.
I think maybe cause I'm authentic, right?
I haven't really changed.
we have the same conversation we could have 20 years ago.
I don't want to say this sound weird,
but you're sort of an attractive,
I don't mean physically,
No, you're wrong.
you're an attractive person.
where are you of that as attractive in terms of not
I'm talking about,
I'm not a big dude,
but I mean attractive personality character.
Are you aware of that?
I think the older you get,
the more you know yourself and where you stand.
but you know where you,
I'm 43 years old,
I'm 44 years old,
I sort of know where I stand in the game
and my presence in the game.
And to know that is powerful.
But if you were as big as Steve Foksy,
You wouldn't have,
Do you reckon you'd have the same presence?
But he had presence.
I think you could just,
you could have it in a different way, right?
Foksy had presence.
Like when I was talking about that,
you sort of scared of him.
In a little bit of a way.
what's he going to do?
Like, is he angry at me or something like that?
Like, cause you don't know what you,
I never knew what I was going to get.
He's like a commando.
That's like, is he fucking,
Did I do something wrong?
Well, you don't really know.
Like, he's like your sort of father.
Like, and he was a,
was he like 20 years older than me?
I think 20, 25 years older.
No, he's my age, 67, 68.
Yeah, 20, 25 years.
Yeah, 20 odd years.
So like, he was a young coach though.
40 when he was coaching.
So we had to coach all these young egos
and personalities and that.
Cause that whole nineties group, gone.
The whole 2000 group,
I come up first and then you had guys like JT
and Braith and Sonny and Randy,
Willy Tonga and all these different personalities.
It wasn't the nineties personality.
More Polynesians coming through.
So you had to evolve, right?
Like I can't coach Willie Mason like I coach Jamie Feeney.
Or I can't coach Sonny Bill like I coach Dennis Scott,
Mark O'Meally and this and that.
Like you got, you got different cats,
different athleticism, different mindsets,
different like footy IQ.
Like it was, and he did a good job.
I was, when he come over for dinner last night,
we just laugh about it.
I said, how did folks he lose his shit?
Like, cause it's some of the stuff we put,
it was all boyish stuff.
We're in our twenties, you know what I mean?
But it was like the fucking headlines.
It was just, what a,
a lot of coaches would have sacked a lot of players.
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So you've got your podcast now, right?
So it seems to be a natural progression for you to go and do a podcast.
And we'll talk about the podcast in a second.
But it's just like someone with your personality.
Your lack of fear of the camera, which by the way, if you're scared in front of a camera,
or if you're a little bit quiet, it's hard to do a podcast podcast.
You've got to be full on.
You've got to be.
But then in terms of who you modeled yourself on, which is a great podcast.
Do you listen to Joe Rogan?
Who do you listen to?
I don't mind the few athletes ones, like the one with KG, a lot of basketball players
It's called The Truth or something like that.
There's a lot of basketball players.
There's a lot of basketball ones.
I like a lot of NFL ones.
They just seem to have the knack for it.
They just can talk.
And they're a bit older too.
They're in their 40s.
They were really good in the same sort of era I was good in.
So they can sit there and they've got all these stories and they've got all this knowledge
in that and they try and pass it on.
That's what it is with podcasting, your life experience, right?
You can't get experience.
You can't buy experience.
I'll just say with younger kids at the Bulldogs now, they're 17.
I think young kids only see the end result.
They don't see the end result.
They see you as you are now, successful, and played at the club.
They're like, dude, I was your age when I first come down.
I know what you're going through.
So is your podcast so about Willie telling stories and you'll pay forward of what he
learned, his experience?
Or is it all about your guest?
Well, we hardly have any guests on.
We just sit there and we have a chat like this, like me and Justin Horrow.
And whatever it is we're talking about, I can just elaborate on whatever it is.
There's a lot of YouTube questions.
There's a lot of like, whatever we get to, I'm like, oh, and then it could be like a
little gem in my head.
Then I would just say it off the cuff, right?
We analyze games and all that kind of stuff.
That's the easy part for me.
But when we're talking like this and talking about footy and whatever subjects, it's not
like written down.
Nothing's written down.
So there's no script?
He's got a computer with just like, it's like Miller notes, whatever it is, it just keeps
everything organized.
Yeah, a couple of topics.
A couple of little topics because he's got to run the ship.
I'm just sitting there just like-
I don't want to look at my phone.
It's distracting.
You know what I mean?
I'm not going to have a Miller note because I'll be sitting there staring at it the whole
I don't need to be engaged like this, otherwise you just drift off.
What does it give you doing podcasts?
I mean, what do you get out of it?
I mean, apart from the fact that you're building an audience, you're probably going to get,
it's probably some commercials associated with the audience over time.
Not enough of you doing that now.
We'll come back to that.
But what do you get from doing it every, what are you doing?
So Monday morning, Thursday morning.
So it gives you a platform to speak on anything you want without it being put into context,
taken out of context.
So you can say something to me, go, oh, you said this, watch the whole podcast, mate.
You know what I mean?
Like don't take it out of context because the little micros that we send out.
So I try not to do that many other podcasts.
So I'm doing yours because you're a great man, right?
And you do great things.
And I'm like with other footy stuff, like I'm like, I don't do the other ones, right?
Because it's all the same sort of questions.
They just want to deep dive into how the hell is this, this, this.
I want to talk about life and everything a bit more deeper than just the average sort
You know, like that was a great time in my life.
I get, you know, like so many life lessons I can grab from footy and just put it into
But is it because you want to, you want to pay forward or take it back to the people
who are listening to your podcast?
All of which would be rugby league fans, a lot of which would be rugby league fans, particularly
Do you like sort of helping them out?
I say, look kid, if you're a young kid, if you're a middle young kid, I'll give some
advice on what you need to work for the evolution of your game.
So first grade player for a first grade coach picks you because if you're just that big
And you don't learn the fundamentals and skillset that you need for first grade, you'll get
stumped at 19, right?
When I'm doing stuff with the Bulldogs, these young kids, 17 to nine, 17 to 20, that's the
You're going to get these kids at six foot four, 120 kilos run like the wind, can't pass
You know what I mean?
Like, dude, you need to learn how to pass the ball because if you get put in first grade
and you can't run a block play.
You'll have the timing off little things like that.
No one will pick you because you can't run it because you're a big guy and then you've
got to run into Tino.
Then you've got to run into Payne Haas.
You're going to Jared where your hard grades will take your face off.
If you're doing, if you're, if you're running one on one, you need a little bit of, you
know, you need some footwork.
You need to know how to pass.
Like, and that's like, yeah, that's the next level of these games.
You got to know you're going to pass.
Cause if they know you don't pass, if they know you haven't got a pass in one hour and
then guys like I used to do it, you know, you just pick on these guys, the young kids
that you just like one dimensional, just tee off on you.
Well, that's really important, Willie, because for these kids, really one of the things that
is coming out of this conversation is that your power of observation when you're playing
footy and as you matured into the footy, you're observing things or traits about other people
who you are, who's your opponent, even also your teammates, but you're observing traits
just like you observed Steve folks and just like you observed Wayne Bennett and everybody
Um, your, uh, what we need to have is young players or young footballers to be able to
learn the, the skill of observation.
As to how to play the game.
And how to, how to skill up relative to what it is that I've got to do in relation to
But this power of observation, mate, it's not a, it's not a natural thing for a lot
A lot of people just do what they've always done.
They're athletic.
They're 120 kilos.
They can run, you know, 12, 11 and a half seconds, a hundred meters.
They just think that's going to get them by.
Um, and a lot of them don't have parents.
You can tell them they don't have mentors who talk to them.
How important do you think that is that for us developing us, the NRL, people like you.
You need Mark O'Meally's.
You need like all the guys that played in that era in the 2000s back in your club, you
know, like, cause the experience that we've got and just, and we can actually teach, right?
You some, I know some players that the best players in the world, they can't teach.
They can't coach.
It just gets stuck in their head.
They know what it looks like.
They just can't tell you what it looks like or show you what it looks like where I'm like
Like I can show you exactly what it looks like.
Cause I'll run the plays with you.
I can still run like that.
Mark O'Meally's there.
Josh Jackson's there.
We all played with each other and against each other, you know, so just breaking games down
I do more one-on-one stuff like this.
So come here, mate.
This is what you need to work on.
Mark O'Meally's great at doing video and everything like breaking them down.
So we're just in the video session with like this young kid, like showing you exactly what
And then we'll go on the field and show you exactly what to do.
These little plays that I know they need to go to the next level.
Cause I know what a coach looks at and I know what an NRL coach is looking at.
They don't care about your size.
You know what I mean?
Like it's great, but if you can't utilize it or get through 10 minutes without being
buggered in the middle, which a lot of these kids would have, that would happen right now
if you chucked them in first grade, cause it's like a washing machine, right?
So if they don't learn all this sort of stuff is that this, I say it's your apprenticeship
right now, right?
And then you're up in first grade.
Hopefully you don't come back.
If we give you all the right tools, we can't just give you nothing, can't just give you
I know a lot of six foot, 520 kilo.
The Polynesian blokes never got out of Jersey fleet because they never evolved and they
never understood the game and what it takes to get to not just NRL, New South Wales, Australia
and dominated every level.
So your role at the Bulldogs, is it, is it for the, uh, flag, uh, uh, um, is it SG ball
and the flay boys?
So we're up to flake.
Now is what under 21.
SG ball is the old flake.
So it's like eight from your best 18 year olds to 21.
That's beautiful.
So you get them out of Harold Matts and they're coming to the SG ball and flake.
And as, as your, as also Mark O'Meally's in that, in that group.
So who's in your group?
Roy Acitasi, Mark O'Meally, Steve Turner and Josh Jackson.
So you got the brains there, right?
Josh only just finished playing football a couple of years ago.
Josh Jackson just retired two years ago.
So if you're a young kid, right?
And I said, this is a couple of really good young kids.
I said, do you know what you've got in front of you, like in your back pocket for advice
nearly whenever you want, you got me, Roy Acitasi and Mark O'Meally, like if you don't
have one question for us, then you're the best.
Why aren't you in first grade?
And is this Gus put this together?
So, and this is all part of Gus's development programs.
He's probably did the same at Penrith when he was there.
We had the same sort of thing when he was with us at the Roosters.
So, and, and we had, he put together great teams, like I remember when Sticky was a coach
in 2002, when we won the grand final, Gus had like a whole heap, Gus was a director
of coaching or something like that with us as well.
But there was a whole heap of people around Sticky.
Like he had a whole lot of other coaches, coaches assistants.
Johnny Cartwright.
Ronnie Palmer was there in those days too.
Like how important is it in your club environment and you will remember Ronnie Palmer from your
origin days at the Roosters.
But how important is it to have someone like a Ronnie Palmer in your environment?
Explain what he is.
Because they understand, they understand the culture.
They're, they're, they're trainers, but they're more than a trainer.
They're your best mate.
They're like the, you could, they're, they're the middle man between the coach and players.
And if you have a good one like that, your whole playing group is happening.
They're happy because your coach doesn't have to be like on top of you all the time.
He relays it to his SNC.
Then it gets related to the players, sports and conditioning, science and something, something
So, so like performance people.
High performance.
But there's always that one dude.
Cause Ronnie Palmer made that position famous.
Everyone wanted to be like that because he was in origin teams, Australian teams.
He was that motivator.
Like I remember like he had been origin and Australian team through kangaroo tours.
Have you ever met a nicer bloke?
A more positive person.
Have you ever, ever?
And I think there's still a spot for him in there, but obviously the game has evolved
and everyone's really sports science got all these young gurus in everything like that.
You know, Ronnie's getting a little bit older, but there's 73.
It's so important for a young Ronnie Palmer to be at your club.
We've got a great guy.
He was at the Roosters.
He's at the Bulldogs now.
He's an integral part of our group.
Travis is fantastic.
And he's one of the.
And a fitter man you're never going to meet.
And he's great because he's out.
He's got the blue shirt on.
He's got the calls from the coach.
You know, so it's a very, it's an important role and he's at training all the time.
He's trained these guys.
He oversees everything.
So it's important to have those guys.
So they've got everybody in place at the dogs.
And Travis is the sort of guy too, what's really interesting about that is that he won't
ask you to do something he can't do himself.
No, he'll school you too.
Like in terms of fitness.
He's an animal man.
Fitness is ridiculous.
And by the way, Ronnie, until probably 71.
He'd school you as well.
He could run and lift weights and do, you know, row a machine or do his bread and butters.
Which were the worst fucking thing in the world.
And he puts you in the fat squad.
So I've always wanted to ask someone like you, who, I don't care where you pick them
from, whether it's origin Queensland sides or overseas sides or the club sides, who is
the toughest dude you ever laced up against?
There's a guy when I first come down to the Bulldogs, his name's Gary Carden.
He's infamous with Bulldogs players, like the guys like Sonny Bill, Yuck Sonny Bill,
Anyone who come through that squad in 98, 99.
2000, 2001 and two.
He was that dude.
He would train you harder mentally, physically, and drain you more than, more than anyone
So he would get you.
That's why we all come through the grades pretty good.
Cause he got our mind right.
And our body's right.
So by the time we got to first grade, I was like, you got to spread this out of the whole
day when you become full time, instead of getting a three hour flogging with this bloke.
But he would train you harder and he was folks, his eyes and ears.
Folks should be like, how's Willie going?
Needs another day.
Needs another six games.
Needs another six weeks.
Or something like that.
How's Sonny going?
When Sonny was 17, 18.
We're like, pick this guy.
Needs another year.
Or like Renny needs another, this like, cause he had, he had us all there for about four
Like all these players over four years.
So myself, Renny, Sonny Bill, JT, Brent Sherman, Corey Hughes, Hazem, Tony Grimaldi.
So out of 17 players, he had 15 come through that squad.
The only people that we didn't go through was general Luke Patton, cause we bought him
from St. George and Marco Mealy.
We bought him from Norse and Manly.
Everybody else come through Gary Cardin.
That was ridiculous.
So he was that dude.
We always knock around with him now.
Cause he's getting a bit older and his knees bugging and he'd always have these war stories
Like he'd try to break everybody.
So if you got through his, you get the first grade and you'll be fine.
You need someone like that.
You can't be like soft as hell with these younger kids.
I know society's changed and everything like that, but this game is still, still brutal.
You need to be cut from that cloth.
You need to be cut a little bit different.
So you've got to figure it out really good, like really well at that age and you need
a person that the first grade coach trusts with everything.
So you have your eyes on it.
That's why we're down there.
Cause Ciro, Ciro and I have really good relationship.
He understands and he trusts us.
And so, and in terms of, you just mentioned Ciro, I don't, I don't think you would've
played against Ciro.
So, um, in terms of marking up against somebody, who did you not like to run into?
Was it a Gordon Talis?
I mean, what was it?
Petro Sivinaseva.
Someone like that.
Like they, you know, like, and Petro's, he's the nicest bloke in the world.
Yeah, totally, totally.
And like, you can't get angry at him and you would never fight him because he's so
nice and he would never fight you.
But he's like, I don't know, like he would just, he'd run into a brick wall, like with
He was just hard.
Tony Carroll was, cause I'm 6'5", Tony Carroll had the perfect technique to get me.
He, cause he'd dip and he'd just throw you, but he'd hit you like a ton of bricks.
He was just more aggressive.
He'd just try and take your face off.
And also like, um, provocative too.
And he had that, he had that aura, right?
Like when I was coming through, like Gordon Talis was my favorite player.
He's my favorite player.
Gordie's my favorite player.
When I was coming through, like as a young kid watching him play for St. George, I'm
like, I want to be like that.
That's why I moved into the back row and wore number 11 because of Gordon.
I always tell him that.
I said, I tried to, I tried to evolve, um, get my game, like remember Steve Kearney?
And then I looked, I looked at Steve Kearney and I looked at Gordon Talis' set.
I want to be in between that with a high skill set, but run like a nut.
We heard this when Kearney was in, when he couldn't play Origin and, uh, when, uh, Junior
Uh, it's just, it's just.
I was 99 in Origin.
A bit too early for you.
I was in the grades, but I wasn't, I wasn't in Origin.
When Bradley Clive fell off the horse.
I'm, you're thinking Steve Kearney.
I'm thinking Robbie Kearns.
I'm thinking Robbie Kearns.
Cause I never, I never leave.
I never, uh, let, uh, Junior forget that because, um, he thought, cause.
Go on horse riding.
Nothing's going to happen.
And fucking me, people that got injured falling off horses cause the horses got spooked.
He never coached again.
And Junior's never, uh, forgot about that.
So I just want to quickly go back to the podcast, mate, because we're running out of time, but
your podcast is called what now?
What's it, what's the name of it for our audience?
And, uh, it comes out twice a week.
Monday, Monday Arvos and Thursday Arvos.
And it's all on Spotify.
All, all at Spotify.
Everything's going well.
And it has been going.
Like numbers wise, I'm not a numbers man.
It's about, but our, our producer and everything like that, like this time last year, it's
like, it's, it's hitting.
I think people relate to it because it's just, it's like, it's like getting the news at a
That's all it is.
A little bit of swearing, a little bit of this, a little bit of cheek, a little bit
But it's, it's whatever I am off camera.
It's no real change.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, you're going to get this 24 seven.
And you're off to Vegas.
And I'll see you there.
I'm going to go to LA before I go to Vegas.
Are you going to do a show over there?
We're going to do some stuff.
And that's, that's very clever.
And what do you think about the Vegas move?
So how do you think it's going to go?
I think there's a five year plan, right?
I think the fifth, fifth year, I think we're going to put an origin there if we're smart.
That'd be awesome.
That would be like, just to give them a little bit of a preview now, first year, the second
year, third year, fourth year, you've got to really like, then we could be talking.
If you can pack that joint out, imagine all the people that'd be going to Vegas anyway,
if we had an origin in June, summertime over there, perfect.
If they set it up like that, if the bigger picture is origin to showcase that, our best
players, you'll fill that out.
And then you just like renegotiate your deal after five years, because if you put an origin
there, you know, it'd be ballistic.
Because they would never have seen something like that.
I mean, I'm hoping that the games that we're going to put on a bit of a show when we get
over there, but it will never be as brutal as origin is.
No, we need that.
We need the origin there to really, we're never going to break into the American market, right?
But just to get them that showcase that once, once a year, if we're going to go over there
and we put an origin there, they'll watch that.
What do you think is about rugby league, the character rugby league that Americans will
The hard hitting.
Because they hit hard.
Like right now it's very methodical how they hit.
Just because there's no shoulder charges or anything like that.
I'd rather a shoulder charge than getting hit three times in one hit.
Someone's gotten the ball.
Someone's got your hips.
Someone's got your legs.
And then you get a slow death down to the ground.
They are choking you out, not choking you out, but like squeezing you so hard.
So you're, so everything, I always saw these young kids, there's about two, 300 battles
in a game, right?
Me, I get the ball.
I'm trying to find my front.
You're trying to put me on my back.
There's the battle there.
And then tick for us or tick for you.
And then accumulates at the end of the game.
Whoever wins more of these little battles will win the war, right?
The war is the two points at the end of the game.
So if you have a little battle, if you have that mindset going in all the time to win
these little battles all the time, right?
Then you'll end up majority of the time you win the war, especially you'll dominate in
the middle, right?
If you dominate in the middle, you win.
You win the game at any level from flag all the way to, to state of origin.
Because forward for me, you win games.
Forward win games.
There's been rarely a time where I've dominated a game.
But when the forwards have actually dominated.
If I've been dominated, it's usually the forwards were on the end, other end of the scoreboard.
But if you know, you've, you've played well, be rarely that we're sitting there going,
wow, we got beat.
We low beat down to the wire.
What are you having?
Just quickly flip over to Vegas again.
What are you hoping you're going to see from the, the, the Roosters and Manly and Brisbane
This is round one for these guys.
Like it's, it's going to be intense.
Like it ain't no trial.
It's not a trial game.
It's going to be, you know, real laser focused in there have been over there.
I think a couple of teams are there already.
I think you'll see some really good football.
Well, there won't be a trial game.
Roosters left, uh, yesterday.
And same as South.
So have you seen the Dom Young run?
Six, five, six, six.
Well, it's six, seven.
So he ran in the Gosford game.
He was chasing, uh, uh, someone down from Manly.
I don't know if someone made a right.
He chased him down.
He was running across the field.
He ran at 10, 10 meters per second over 40 meters.
In fact, he ran, he ran so fast.
He overran the bloke.
So ran past the dude.
Hope he's all right.
We're going to, he's going to go to Vegas.
He just can't play.
No, he wouldn't reset.
No, he's fine though.
I thought it was precaution.
Cause I was looking at that.
I was like, okay.
Well, that's good.
He's a good young kid.
He's a good young kid.
And the game is so good today.
The athleticism that we see today, like someone who's that, that big and that tall can run
These young kids now, even a funeral, Blake Payne Haas, Payne Haas is a buck 25 and he
like the way he moves and force into it.
Like you run like that, if you're big and strong and you run into some good luck trying
You'll break your shoulder.
Trying to hit that a Tino for newer Blake, like Leota Fisher, Harris, Hargraves, Lindsay
Can you imagine how someone like Luke Keery must be thinking what he must be thinking
Cause they never, they're not growing.
And they run at him.
Maybe what do you think about the, the whole concussion discussion?
You know, Jimmy Graham, blah, blah.
I think it's important that they have the data out there.
And I think that's what they've been doing since 2014.
That was the back end of my career.
I know the NRL is collecting data cause they don't want to, they don't want a lawsuit
So if they keep collecting data, if they tell you you're off, well, there's a tip.
We told you to go off.
This, this, this could be minor, minor, you know, like hardly any head, not you're still
going off precautionary.
They just needed to, they just, I think with Jimmy Graham, like he, I understand, I understand
all the point of views.
We just need to be careful.
Look after the players.
Like we were in that 2000 and no one cared.
And he's, I love what he's doing.
He's on a mission.
And you get blokes like Mark Spud Carroll, Mark.
He thinks he doesn't feel too well at the moment.
And what do you think we should, NRL should be doing and clubs, we should be doing it
I'm not sure what you can do.
Like if Spud's struggling right now, right?
What can the NRL do?
Like the only, I think they're trying to do stuff.
Like can you, you can't fix it.
You know what I mean?
You got to train your brain.
I've got a good relationship with Gus.
I mean, with Spud.
I'm always big on like trying to really like grow my brain and like neuroplasticity and
all that sort of stuff.
You train your brain.
I'm trying to like do stuff all the time.
Cause it's not, don't think for a second.
I don't worry about that.
Like I was in that.
I was one of those dudes.
You know, the head knocks and everything.
Like it's not about like the getting knocked out all the time.
It's about the trauma.
It's about the head moving.
You know, maybe you're talking thousands and thousands of collisions over a 15 year career.
And it's like, you know, it's got to take its toll somewhere.
You know, like he said, like, I'm very wary of the fact I get my brain tested every four
You know, like you do all these little skills and trying to like just grow your brain all
You use new things, right?
Like all the time.
Try and get out of your comfort zone.
So I like doing the podcast.
We talk about a lot of things.
Like doing a podcast here.
Just talking to people.
I mean, that's a profound role to have.
I know a lot of people just like thinking back about history and everything like that.
I watched a lot of TV.
I just watched TV to watch bullshit things.
I want to get smarter.
I want to evolve.
I want to grow all the time.
That's really interesting.
We'll, because I'm one of the, I mean, I've had a little bit to do with the concussion
stuff because someone concussion committee for the NRL and one of the things is sort
of coming up from the scientists.
They're telling us stuff because we talked to all the scientists and they're saying
one of the worst things.
And one of the most affected cohort of people from concussion are those people who tend
sit on their own and not be out there yeah because maybe there's someone who suffers from anxiety
perhaps or crowd anxiety yeah it's whether you're just a concussion or you had a concussion 30 years
ago and you're now a retired player you've got to get out in the into the community and talk to
people and as you say exercise learn things and make yourself do things yeah and i worry and i
think maybe the nrel could actually come up with a program for this like uh how do we you know get
older players they don't have to play at origin we don't have to have an origin yeah situation
just have them somewhere clubs can do the same thing the bulldogs can we do it the roosters
how do we get old players together again yeah i think it's up to the clubs right i think they
really need to go out of their way the bulldogs are doing that at the moment trying to get all
the ex-players in and i always have really good open open conversations with like you know really
tonga and sunny and all these guys like how like just say a lot of ailments come after like after
playing because you're used to
being in a tribe right our ancestors and everything like if you lost if you leave the
tribe thousands and thousands of years ago you can die yeah you know what i mean like you've got to
be connected to people all the time right like whether it be a family whether it be your friends
old work groups everybody especially males want to be part of a tribe a community so it's important
when you do leave when you do retire from football you don't leave it completely right still a
massive part of your life i know it's consuming but you need to get back in like a lot of guys
who just like they sit and they get bitter in the game and all that kind of stuff don't do that
just get back into the game the game still loves you the club still loves you right you're just
sitting on the outside you just got to get back into the fold in the community if you if you're
suffering from those like like the depression and anxiety and all this sort of stuff that's
really coming on now so you really got to get back into the club or even like it doesn't have
to be your old nrl club just a football club yeah right start doing stuff it could be local
just be local just get down there and just like be a part of a community again it doesn't have
to be the rugby league community a lot of players are ex-players and they've hias and they've gone
like that medically retired filthy on the game yeah you would be and you would be you have every
right but like just join a community but that doesn't help no it doesn't it makes you old and
bitter all the time you've got to get back on the horse and do something yeah and then and i guess
that's sort of that sort of helps us close this off because for me your podcast does exactly that
for you yes it does because i'm back in the community i'm back at the bulldogs i'm doing
stuff with the younger kids so it makes me like excited every day to go i'm going to help this
kid do that right i've got to go to the bulldogs training this afternoon i'm going to go to the
coach these young kids on some different plays i'm like i'm excited about that for two or three
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