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Sir John Kirwan Don_T Touch Death To Learn How To Live Everyday Is A Gift

G'day again, Gus Walland here, the host of Not An Overnight Success, a podcast series

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Published 21 days agoDuration: 1:13964 timestamps
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G'day again, Gus Walland here, the host of Not An Overnight Success, a podcast series
brought to you by Shoren Partners Financial Services, the only podcast in the world where
we give $10,000 to every guest to give to a charity of their choice.
And today it's John Kirwan, or I should say Sir John Kirwan, who is a sir, not so much
about his rugby because he's one of the best rugby players on the planet, but the work
that he's done since then.
It's looked upon, I suppose, back in the day when he was a rugby star, how could someone
so big, so strong, suffer with so much anxiety to the point that John did, or the work he's
done since has saved many, many lives.
He's an absolute champion.
Just want to put a little note with this one, if you are struggling at the moment with your
own mental health, your own mental fitness, your own mental anxieties or so forth, this
is one you may not want to listen to alone, or this is one that perhaps when you're in
a better state of mind, you might want to have a listen to.
But anyway, enjoy our chat with Sir John Kirwan.
So JK, at what stage did you go, you know what, I'm going to be in all black?
Yeah, about four and a half, as you do, charging around the backyard, side stepping lemon trees
and stuff.
Yeah, and then probably, you know, dreamt of it as you do as a kid, aspire to be something.
But then probably around 16 or 17, I left school, I was a halfback at school, and I
So that's sort of under 19.
And Pete's net and the coach said, I think you're too big to be a halfback, put you on
the wing.
And we had a style of footy back then that was just throw it around.
And so I sort of, yeah, I started scoring tries and really enjoying it and, and started
actually believing.
And so I started to look at the game really different.
I thought, okay, how can I be, how can I change the game a wee bit?
And then at 18, I got picked in the, I went from under 21s to the Auckland squad.
It was a really, really incredible time, you know, like a dream come true.
And then eventually, how long from that sort of moment for when you get put onto the wing,
were you happy with that initially?
Because all of a sudden, you're not going to get as much ball and you're not, you know,
not involved as much.
Were you okay with that?
Yeah, yeah, I was, you know, I can't remember being upset with it.
I was just smiling at you because I remember that when I got selected for the Auckland
side, I was absolutely shitting myself.
Right?
I have, I am, I've never played senior rugby and I get selected to play for Auckland.
So in the Auckland team, you know, we've got all these superstars.
It'd be, it'd be like being selected, you know, with Freddie Fittler and, you know,
like the block and, and, you know, and all those guys of that era, if you're rugby league
guy or, you know, and I just could not believe it.
So I'm, I'm a butcher, right?
And I'm telling the dad, I'm shitting myself.
It's Tuesday, you know, Tuesday night training.
I'm shitting myself.
Dad, dad sort of just, you know, okay, it's all good.
It doesn't really say much.
My dad didn't really say much.
And then he said to me about 4.30, I was just about to clean the slicer actually.
And he said, can you cut me a kilo of ham, a kilo of luncheon and get me a kilo of saveloins?
And I'm going, shit, dad, you know, I'm under pressure.
You know what I'm saying?
Like I'm under pressure, mate.
I'm thinking about training and I'm about to clean the slicer and so I get a bit mad
when I slice all this stuff, wrap it up, you know, so I'm shitting myself, dad.
I'm really nervous.
And so just before I left, he gave me the meat that I'd sliced.
And I went, what's that?
And he said, it's a kilo of luncheon, it's a kilo of ham, it's a kilo of saveloins.
He said, what's that for?
And he said, if you train like shit tonight, but you put that out after training, I want
you back Thursday.
And he was right.
I trained like shit and I brought all the food out and the boys were hoeing into it.
Imagine after training, you know, because back then we weren't pros, so you'd worked
all day.
They just hoed in and said, see you Thursday, JK, I said, yeah, see you Thursday.
But anyway, Thursday, I'd take another kilo, right?
After three weeks, my dad says, if you're not good enough to stay there without the
ham, mate, you're paying for it.
That is gold.
So the third week, do you reckon you'd got over your nerves and you were going all right?
Yeah, I scored a couple of tries.
So that was it though.
And getting no more free free.
So from that moment where you're, you know, you're dipping out the ham and you're having
a bit of fun at training and so forth, how long were you before you were in the All Black
Squad?
I was the third youngest All Black, so I made it at 19 years, three months, three weeks
and three days or something.
So for me, really quick rise, really, really quick rise.
You know, the first year of Auckland was, was really amazing.
You know, it was like just this unbelievable moment.
Then before I knew it, I was, and I was a new generation, you know, it was really quite
interesting because when I made the All Blacks, everyone was 10 years older than me, you know.
So I'm 19 and they're all 29, 28, you know, and it was so, it was just a really, really
incredible time, like living a dream, really.
Were they like father figures or brothers to you because you were so much younger or
did you feel they're equal once you sort of started playing a few tests?
A combination of the both.
So I think there's a lot more what I would call tough love back then.
I was young, blonde, you know, like, you know, you talk about confidence versus ego and sometimes
they can get confused.
Well, my ego was certainly confused with my confidence.
I probably had too much of both to be fair.
So, you know, I strut into the room, man, you know, like I've got, I've even got one
of those basketball walks on, you know what I'm saying?
I'm strutting, brother.
And I walk into my first team meeting and one of the elders says, who are you?
And I went, oh, I'm John Kirwan.
And he goes, well, who picked you?
So I've gone from the strutting peacock to, oh, I feel like a bit of a chicken now.
And then he says, and I said, oh, Bryce roped the coach.
And he said, well, we didn't.
Wow.
So all of a sudden I've gone from a strut to a, oh, shit.
And then he said to me, oh, and by the way, if we lose on said, that's your fault.
Oh, no.
I'm sorry.
You know, I'm hammered, right?
And then he doesn't say anything else.
So I'm sitting there, but dejected and I go back to my room, didn't sleep that well at
night because, you know, and I get up the next morning, I opened the door to go to breakfast
and he's standing there and I'm thinking, oh shit, I don't want to go to breakfast with
this guy.
You know what I mean?
And he says, you know what I said last night, and I thought he was going to say, it was
just a joke.
I'm just pulling your leg.
He said, everything's true.
I went, wow.
But he said, come and have breakfast.
So I walked with him at breakfast and he said to me, you know, JK, we think you're one of
the most promising players we've seen ever, right?
But this is the beginning, brother.
If you think you've made it, there's going to be someone coming at you really, really
quick.
So I thought, wow, that's interesting.
And the second thing or the third thing he said was, you know, the jerseys on loan, man,
who'd you get it off?
And I got it off Stu Wilson, one of the best wingers to play for the game.
He said, well, when you give it to the next person, what's it going to be like as a jersey?
Is it going to be there one week, two weeks, 10 years?
How do you want to give your jersey back to someone else?
Wow.
And he said, the final thing when I said, if we lose on sad down, it's your fault, it's
the truth because you must first look in the mirror.
And if you look in the mirror and you've been perfect, you can come and have a go at me.
So you know, I went from and they must have seen my confidence.
So they went from whack, you know, whack in the head just about like, wow, I felt like
I was in a punching bag to, okay, I get that.
So if I don't get better, you know, if I let my ego get out of the way, what am I going
to bring to this jersey and how long do I want to stay?
And then on sad day, if we lose, I've got to look in the mirror first before I start
criticizing anyone else.
And they were the values that I took with me for the 10 years that I was lucky enough
to play for the All Blacks.
They talk about the values in the All Blacks being one of the greatest cultures in the
world sport.
Have you been able to sort of think about that phrase and actually be able to talk to
enough people in other sports to know if that stands up?
I think collective values, the best way I can put it is what is love, right?
And I often ask a whole lot of people in a room, what is love?
And I get 25 different answers and none of them are wrong.
But another really interesting story, I got a life lesson from a Catholic priest in Italy
once.
It's a lot, it's a reasonably long story, so I won't tell you a whole lot, but he said
to me, J.K. loves a verb, I went, wow, because it's a doing word.
You can say whatever you want, brother, but your actions will prove your love.
And I think collective values are different to individual values.
So the collective values of the All Blacks are verbs.
You've got to live them and you've got to act them on and off the field.
And then you need to have a group of elders that are prepared to pull you up around those
values and no one's bigger than the game.
And this is going to be a really interesting challenge moving forward where you have the
Namars of this world, who I really admire, the Rinaldos of this world, who now the individual
brand is as big as some of the collective brands they play for.
So in our modern society, how do we retain collective values and then turn those into
a really strong team ethos that can last the test of time?
And so I think the All Blacks have had some really, really good keepers and holders of
the Holy Grail.
Each generation is more challenging and we're going through some really big challenges here
in New Zealand at the moment where you can see when values don't work on the football
field, you just have the courage to call them out.
You can feel cohesiveness, you can feel team spirit, you can feel love, right?
But putting all different people on a page is way different.
So that was a long, sorry about the long answer, but I think that the core value, I was very
fortunate because the core values that a lot of those older guys taught me that once again,
I don't think you could present it the way they presented it in today's society have
put me instead for life.
Sometimes honesty gets me in trouble, mate, but I'd prefer to have that as a value and
be criticized for my honesty than not telling you the truth.
Sometimes I don't have the courage to be honest and I always feel I've let myself down.
There's a whole lot of those things that I got taught by those older guys, but I'm also
smiling at you again because I've got another little story.
Do you want to hear it?
Yes, please.
So you remember the old Sonny Walkman, 400 bucks?
Yeah.
Yeah, it first came out at $400.
I was the first dude to get one, man.
Like, I love that shit.
I was all over it.
And so I'm down, like we're flying to Dunedin to play a test match.
I've got it on the side of my thing, right?
And I've got my headphones on.
Now, for your viewers, that might not sound like anything crazy, but you take yourself
back to 19, you know, 1980 to three.
Yeah, yeah.
This is like someone from Mars.
Anyway, I'm waiting for my bag and boom, from behind, I get a smack and my headphones
explode, my $400 Walkman falls to the deck and just disintegrates.
And it was at one of our props saying, we don't wear that shit here.
I can't talk to you.
Done, 400 bucks down the drain, not to wear the Walkman ever again.
Lesson learned.
I can't talk to you.
Interesting.
The reason why, right?
Yeah.
Don't agree with the violence towards it, but quite interesting.
Yeah.
Well, it's old school violence back in the day, 82.
That's what happened, right?
Yeah.
It was like a germ of adherence.
Like they liked you.
Yeah.
But they want to talk to you.
So get it off.
Yeah.
So can you remember who your first test match was against?
Can you remember the score?
Did you play okay?
Did you play good, bad?
I can remember it like yesterday for three reasons.
It was my first test match.
I'll never forget in the All Blacks, they called you, the manager calls you to
your room and presents you with the jersey.
And I remember taking it back to my room and putting it over a chair with
the fern facing me.
And I was lying in bed thinking, that's responsibility.
That is passion.
That is, um, dreams come true.
That is responsible.
There's all these things that were coming.
Yeah.
Quite overwhelming before you play your first test.
We played France in, uh, in Christchurch and it's the first time I'd seen a man
cry because Les Gabor are the number 10.
He missed about four drop kicks at goal in the last 10 minutes.
And we won 13-12 and I came into the tunnel and he was crying.
I was going, wow, what's happened?
Like, but he was just crying for the emotion of, of the drop kicks.
I just thought, wow, that's really weird.
Cause the only time I did what I've never seen my dad cry, you know, I
thought someone had died or something, but he was showing emotion was crazy.
Yeah.
And I played okay.
I played, I played well enough to get selected for the next one.
So that's okay.
We'll talk about emotion and where your life has turned to in a moment, because
that's obviously a huge part of, of your second mountain as the John Kirwan.
So how many test matches do you play in a row?
Were injuries a big deal for you?
What was your all black career like if you could sort of sum it up for us?
So I played 63 tests, but 96 games.
So in those days we'd tour and we'd play during the week.
So we had lots of touring games.
I broke the New Zealand.
Pest tri record during my career.
And I also was the most capital black, um, during my time I overtook from
Sir Colin Meads, who was an amazing man.
So that's the stats, but I don't really get into stats.
That doesn't really worry me.
I snapped my Achilles in 1989.
I had two knee operations for cartilage.
I broke my acromino-cubiccio joint or AC joint during my first all black
tour in 1984, a guy called Matt Burke.
It was, it was a pretty...
He's a good man, Matty.
Pretty good.
No, not the, there were, there's a couple of Matt Burks.
Okay.
This might, well, it might be the same when you're talking about, but Matt
Burke was a winger, not the Matt Burke, the fullback that came around 10 years later.
Yeah.
I was just thinking I've just aged Burke you there a decade.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, I had a few injuries, but I'm, I was, you know, normal from a, from
a contact sport point of view.
Yeah.
I guess, I guess the thing we're all sort of pretty grateful for is I
didn't have a lot of concussions.
And Rick, and back then that probably wouldn't have worried me, but what we're
reading about now is pretty scary.
Yeah.
Well, I certainly work a lot with ex sportsmen and, and, you know, they've
got their brains already donated to the brain bank down in Melbourne and Victoria.
And, you know, they do testing now and it's, you know, it's a very, very
difficult and emotional thing to talk about because they did something they
loved and they've made their careers out of it.
And, you know, it could, could end up being something that really bothers
them in their, in their older life.
And maybe not so out of life too, with, you know, people in their early
forties that are, you know, struggling now with early sign dementia.
That's so sad.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, I think for sport, it's a bit like smoking in the eighties,
seventies and eighties.
You know, everyone's, everyone had a dart and a beer and, you know,
we didn't know a lot about it.
So it's just really sad because I don't think any of us knew anything about it.
Yeah.
And some of the repercussions are going to be pretty horrible.
I think it's important that, you know, we stand up and collectively help.
You know, you talk about values and sport, you know, we should not leave
anyone behind from an organization point of view, you know, we need to
make sure that whatever help we can do and whatever responsibility we have
to take as an organization, we should.
Yep.
Hear, hear to that.
So you're playing your all blacks, you're living your dream.
Are you having to work as well?
And at what stage do you fall in love with your wife or does she fall in love with you?
How does that all work?
Never a professional all black.
So we used to get $15 a day or $50 a day until I finished when I was 29.
So I played 10 years as an all black and never got directly paid.
So I was an amateur.
So to do that, I used to go to Italy to make illegal money, which
we couldn't declare back then.
So I'll tell you another funny story.
I'm at rugby training in 1985 and I'm, you know, I'm a couple of years into my
career and I'm an all black and at training.
So this is, this is New Zealand, 1985.
So if you could describe Australia from a fashion sense and in 1985, you know,
you'd probably be talking to T-shirt and stubbies.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And in New Zealand, pretty similar.
So I'm doing training at the end of training is these two guys dressed in jeans,
a beautiful shirt and jackets.
One had long hair and a ponytail.
The other had really slick hair, probably gelled up early eighties.
I go at the end of training, they come over to me and say, so I'm working for my
dad, I'm earning $75 a week, man.
Right.
Beautiful.
They come up to me and say, Oh, I'm JK.
We know who you are.
We're down here from Italy.
We'd like you to come and play for us in Italy.
And I went, Oh, that's interesting.
And they said, and we'll pay you $3,000 a month.
$3,000 a month.
So I hop in my old HQ Holden and I'm off home, you know, the old HQ home station
wagon, cause I'm delivering meat.
That's how I let the money off the old man to buy it.
So I had to double up as the meat carrier.
So I get home and I said to dad, I said, dad, you know, there was these guys at
training and they're from Italy and they offered me three grand a month to go and
play. And he said, what'd they look like, boy?
And I said, well, one of them had jeans on and a beautiful jacket and a lovely
shirt and he had an earring.
And the other guy had cords, a jacket, and he looked really good here in a
ponytail.
He said, don't trust the bastards, boy.
So I go back, I do some research, right?
And I find out they've been sent down by the Benetton group and it's the coach and
the assistant coach and they're serious people.
So I find out all this information and I go back to my dad and I said, dad, you
know, like I've done all the research, they've been sent down by the Benetton
family. They're really serious.
You know, it's legit.
And he went, Oh, that's good, but that's way too much money for you.
So you can take your brother-in-law and he can play for one of the clubs over
there and you can give him half.
I did.
Oh, yeah.
So my brother-in-law used to play for Samoa, obviously married to my sister.
So I had to ring them back and say, yeah, but you need to find a club for my
brother-in-law because I'm giving him half my money because my dad said it's
too much for me.
So we both went over and that's what happened.
And what was his career like?
He moved in with me.
He was of Samoan descent and he came to live in New Zealand and then met my
sister.
And so when I was 13, he moved into my room because he wasn't going to be able
to sleep sleeping with my sister and under our roof and he's just like my
brother, really.
Incredible.
Yeah.
So you're both over there in Italy.
You're having fun.
You're making some money and so forth and you're still playing for the All
Blacks.
At what stage do you fall in love?
At what stage do you start your other life as a father and having children?
Yeah.
So I came home, loved it, started taking Italian lessons, loved the Italian
people and lifestyle.
I wanted to go back and then the New Zealand Rugby Union told me if I went back,
I wouldn't be picked for the World Cup.
So I skipped that year and then I had a really incredible World Cup year.
So that was really positive for me.
So this is 87?
Yeah, 87.
So I missed 87, 88, and then I went back in 89, went back in 89 and that's when
I met my, you know, my wife.
Yeah.
So we sort of met in 89.
We had a bit of a, I call up myself cross-culturally married.
We had a bit of a rough start.
You know, she left me a few times because came down to New Zealand and it wasn't
exactly, you know, we live in a place called Treviso, which is 25 minutes out of
Venice, the cultural difference was, so, you know, I had to make some change and
she had to make some change.
And we, we got through that and got married in, in 1991.
And children?
Yeah, we have three children at the moment.
Francesca is 28.
We have a wine business.
We import Italian wine and oils and products into New Zealand because we want
to create a family business, which is very much an Italian thing to do.
My middle son's a professional soccer player in Italy.
So he's 26, Nico, plays for the All Whites and hopefully he gets
selected to play Australia.
And then my, my little one, who's not that little anymore, Luca, he's in the
elite New Zealand rowing team.
So he's living down in Kakapiro, which is not far from where we live.
Beautiful.
And do you get back to Italy much?
Yeah.
Well, my wife goes home for four or five months every year.
We still have a home there.
I lived there off and on for 20 years.
So some of my closest mates live over there.
And obviously my son lives there.
So my wife goes home for five months every year, three, three to five months.
Just quickly, how cool was it in 1987, winning the World Cup?
Not cool at all at the time.
Okay.
You don't realize like, you know, you it's disappointment and, and
what do I do next was the first emotions I had because you work so hard for
something and then, Oh bloody hell, you know, you celebrate that night.
But then the next day you get up and you think, Oh shit, what am I going to do now?
And we all went back to work.
So there was this real void, this real emptiness.
And you know, it took me a while to go and okay, what's, what's next?
What's the next mountain, as you mentioned before.
And so it was this emptiness for a while, but retrospectively amazing.
You achieve your goals.
You win the first ever World Cup for me personally, I had a good tournament.
And so that, that appreciation grows after time.
And of course, 91, I'd love to talk all day about 91.
Quarterfinal, we get over the line against Ireland, then all of a sudden
the semi-final, the old Lansdowne Road in Ireland and Campese does what Campese does.
What was he like as a, as a person to play against?
Cause you were both, if there was a world 15 pick, you'd be on a flank each, two
boys from down under, what was it like playing against Campo at his best?
Scary, way better than me, incredibly fast.
Invented the goose step, great on his feet, great kicking game.
He cut us up that day.
That was the worst performance I'd ever had in 40 minutes and probably the best
performance I've ever had in 40 minutes in the second half, personally.
But Campo cut me to shreds in the first half and cut us all to shreds.
And he had an amazing football team of which to launch from.
So, you know, that was just a real good football team.
Yeah.
And so, you know, for me, that's the first time I ever cried.
I just cried after that game.
I was just devastated and we just weren't good enough.
We made mistakes.
I think the team was too old from 87.
You know, I don't think there were a few people in management that
weren't dealing with the pressure.
I was under antidepressants, so I certainly wasn't on top of my game either.
You know, there's a lot of things going on around the football team and to win
a World Cup, everything's got to come together.
You won in 87, Australia wins it the next year.
So the first two have played and New Zealand and Australia have won it, which
is fantastic for us down under, I suppose, and 95 comes around and so forth.
At what stage do you get to the end of your career and you start looking at
what's next for you, especially with the work that you're doing around mental
health and mental fitness now in New Zealand, your second mountain and groove
and so forth that comes because of your own battles and your own well spoken
battles, the fact that you put your hand up and said, Hey, even someone like
me can go through stuff.
What was that like for you to put your hand up and be so vulnerable
and so raw with the world?
Well, I wanted to jump out of a window one night.
I'd been hiding my anxiety and my depression.
I was playing for the All Blacks, still relatively young.
And so this is probably end of 89, beginning of 90, lots of anxiety attacks
ignored, fell into a depression, fighting my mental health in a hotel room in
Buenos Aires on the 10th floor.
The windows open and I was just sick of fighting and I wanted to run and jump out.
The guy lying next to me said, JK, you've got a good heart.
Saved my life.
Who was that man?
Michael Jones.
Oh, Michael Jones.
Yeah.
The ice man, you know, people say, do you call him the ice man?
Cause he was cool and calm under pressure.
Nah, I used to smack, they used to smack the shit out of people.
They have ice packs all over them after the game.
So, but he saved my life.
I didn't say anything at the time, but he saved my life.
And so the next day I played a test match for the All Blacks was like
living in a dream, like watching myself from the stands and I flew home and
reached out to my doctor.
You know who my doctor was?
The All Black doctor had been away for a month.
We had to spoke to him about it.
Wow.
First thing he said to me changed the direction of my life.
He said, JK, it's an illness, not a weakness.
I went, what?
And he said, yeah, it's called anxiety and depression.
It's an illness, not a weakness.
But the interesting thing about that illness is it takes away your self-esteem,
takes away your self-confidence and takes away your enjoyment in life.
And that's where I was at.
Didn't think I was good enough.
Didn't think I could cope with the pressure.
I can't do this anymore.
You know, even when I'd go surfing, which was one of my go-tos to relax,
hated it, you know, but I didn't realize that part of it was part of the illness.
And I talked to people and say, a minute feels like an hour and an hour feels
like a day and a day feels like a week.
So at the end of every day I was exhausted and I was sick of fighting.
It was like having an alien in your brain.
So then I started going on this journey of from surviving to thriving.
And, you know, some of the lessons I've learnt and, you know, that's probably
another podcast because so many different stories about, you know, what happened
to me on that journey is amazing.
You know, I'll just tell you one, I wouldn't go and see a, I wouldn't go and
see a psychiatrist or psychologist, right?
This is the same guy that's going to the gym for two hours a day.
I love the mirror too, by the way, Gus loved it.
I'd be the first one on the massage table.
I'm trying everything to be the best rugby player in the world.
And my doctor says, going to see someone for years, I piss off, mate.
I'm not doing that.
What do you think?
I'm a loser or something, you know?
So I don't go.
And, you know, I often talk about courage and I think courage is also a verb.
Every individual needs to understand what it is.
Encouraged for me was actually eventually going, but it didn't work out too well.
So, you know, I finally decided to go and see someone and I walk in, right?
So for me, courage was going to see someone.
Yeah.
Incredible courage, right?
And people might say, well, that doesn't sound like courage.
I'm telling you, for me, it was courage.
So I walk in and this guy goes, JK, you're a volcano.
You got all this power inside you.
Can you feel that power?
Go in.
I don't want to be a volcano.
You dick.
I just want to get well.
I'm sure the volcano guy helped a lot of people, right?
But it was the worst thing that happened to me.
Yeah.
Like I'm going, I knew I was insane.
My reference to mental health was wonderful over the cookery's nest.
So he just confirmed it, right?
I'm going to get locked up.
So I thought I'd go on to see a loony who's going to bring them and get me
locked up with Jack Nicholson and chiefs, the big American Indian guy.
And so I didn't go back, you know, I'm also taking antidepressants
and hate myself for it.
Repeat same guy putting 200 milligrams of Voltaren down his gob to play footy.
No questions asked.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I talk about the juniors being two steps forward and one step back,
you know, and two steps forward, the courage to go and see someone step back.
He was a, I didn't connect.
Yeah.
Taking antidepressants standing next to my dad who'd had three triple
bypasses and he was a butcher.
So he had this elbow that he got a titanium.
I love the elbow, man.
36 grand their son.
He was hoping that when, when he passed and we cremated him, we
might be able to resell it.
Good butcher.
You know what I'm saying?
But anyway, we didn't put it on.
Trade me.
No one wanted it.
Don't know why I can't believe it.
And so I'm standing next to him at the kitchen table and I've got this little
white pill antidepressant said, Oh dad, I feel like such a loser, you know?
And he turned to me and said, you want me to die?
Do you?
I said, no dad, I don't want you to die.
And he said, well, I've had two triple bypasses and I've got to take 25 of
those little white bastards.
And if I don't take it today, I'll be dead tomorrow.
Take your little white pill and get over yourself.
Wow.
Great advice.
Great advice.
So then I started taking the antidepressants more consistently.
Got a little bit of balance.
And the second person I went to Dr.
Louise Armstrong was amazing.
I walked in and she said rugby player.
I said, yeah.
She said, what would you do if you had a tight hamstring?
Then I'd stop and stretch it.
Okay.
You've stopped the stretcher.
You get up, you keep running.
It's really, really tight.
What would you do?
I said, dad, stop, I sit and go to the physio.
She said, your brain's no different.
She said, wow, I've got a hamstring in the head.
What's the ice and who's the physio?
Cause I, my ice was alcohol.
Um, I just used to get hammered, mate, you know, and it used to
work for a few hours, but then the next day I go back a hundred miles an hour.
So it's like this catch 22.
You go to the post to get some relief.
Then, you know, it's not going to be good for you.
So I knew that wasn't my ice.
But that's when I started the journey of, of actually understanding, um, my brain
and understanding a little bit of the science around what was going on in my
brain and then finding the tools that I need to go from surviving to thriving.
That's an incredible story.
And one that I've heard many times and over here, the average is you need to see
six counsellors or six professionals before you find the right one that you connect with.
So the fact that you found the second one after volcano man is, is incredible.
And the fact that you went back and saw a second one, cause a lot of
people give up after one.
So that then turns you into something that you want to make some real change.
So talk us through what you're doing now and how did you become a sir?
Like, how did you find out?
How did that all happen?
Like, do you get a phone call?
Do you get a letter?
Does someone?
Yeah.
So I didn't want to do this.
I didn't want to do this.
I was scared me absolutely petrified that I was going to ruin my reputation.
And it was all black.
My honor as a man, all sorts of dumb stuff going on in my head.
So I was really scared to do it.
But I had a friend of mine who said, JK, you need to become the face of this.
And he said, I didn't even know he knew I was sick, but I was coming through it by
then, but I'd kept it a secret.
There's two stories, one about the knighthood and one about this around my mom.
So I rang my mom and I said, mom, they want me to be the face of a
anti-stigma campaign for mental health.
And I said, I don't really, I don't want to do it.
The guy's hassling me.
And my mom said, how bad was it in there, boy?
And I said, it is a living hell.
I don't wish it on anyone.
And she said, if you do the ad, do you think it might help one person?
And I said, yep.
And she said, well, you should do it.
So I did it and it was the greatest thing I've ever done.
I shat myself.
I, I didn't think it would work.
I was very fortunate to have a fantastic communicator who looked after me during
the communication, cause you could get that wrong, right?
It hadn't been done before.
I called Kevin Denham and we just did a really simple ad.
I know your journey.
Cause we've spoken before about when you came out on air, you know, mate, I get
hugs in the supermarket now.
You know, I have people come up to me and say, thank you.
And that morphs a wee bit.
So it morphs a wee bit and I'm going into a test match.
So I do the, I do the ads.
I'm living overseas.
I come back, I'm going to the 2005, so I did the anti-stigma campaign, 2005.
I'm walking into a test match against the lions and a young fella comes up to me in
a suit and tie, taps me on the shoulder.
I turn around and say, Oh, g'day mate, says, g'day JK.
He said, I'm a lawyer.
I said, Oh, good on you, mate.
Awesome.
And he said, if it wasn't for you, I'd be dead.
And I went, wow.
And he walked off and I thought we're doing anti-stigma.
Now we need to do a hope campaign.
Like I got through this, this guy got through this, you know, like you and I've spoken
about suicide as a, as a long-term solution for a short-term problem.
If you can talk about it and get the help you need.
Right.
Yeah.
And I've been there, I've had that illness and, and thought about it and survived.
But you know, so then we did a hope campaign and then we created a thing called the
depression.org.nz, which was another bit of a risk, but it was the first ever online
mental health tool and it won awards all around the world.
Unfortunately, the government back then spent $6 million on the technology.
So that's 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
And then they continue to use my face to drive a lot of people to the site and 600,000
people a year, but they never spent any more money on the technology because they were
risk averse.
I don't need to go down that road.
You know what I'm talking about?
About five years ago, I woke up and felt like a failure and I felt like a failure
because I've been the face of this for 15 years and our suicide rate is ridiculous.
By the end of today, a New Zealand male will be dead by tomorrow evening, two males
and one female.
It's double our road toll and your Australian stats.
I know they're the same.
I mean, 120 attempts a day, seven suicides, five deaths, five deaths, five
suicides. And people don't know these stats or don't realize how severe this is.
So I felt like I'd failed.
So there was a couple of things that I thought, if we keep looking at this problem the
same way, we're going to come up with the same answers.
And unfortunately, with government, that's what happens.
So I got a whole bunch of people in a room and child psychologists, tech leaders,
business leaders, artists, musicians, all in a room.
And we came up with two solutions.
We need to change mental health in the workplace.
So we created a digital solution because people don't know this shit.
You and I talk about it every day, man, but people don't have a daily mental health
plan, you know, and people do need a daily mental health plan.
We don't need to be throwing shit at people at work, right?
We need to create an optimal advice.
So Groove is a digital solution for the workplace to empower the individual to look
after their mental health and have a daily mental health plan, to lift the leaders, to
make this normal.
We just do mental health at work, right?
Put it on the agenda and then optimize the environment.
The other thing we realized is that our kids are still not getting taught the tools that
they need to deal with this world.
So we looked all around the world and all the tools, best practice in the world,
brought them back to New Zealand.
I raised another three hundred grand and we commissioned the Auckland University to
come up with a curriculum for the schools.
Three things. It must be curriculum based.
So it's like English, maths and science.
Secondly, our teachers who are beautiful people, we trust our kids with them every
day, are overworked and underpaid.
So we don't need to put any pressure on them from a resource, financial resource or
human resource point of view.
And the third thing is needs to be co-designed, right?
So what might be good in a, we have decile schools here.
So decile one's bad, decile ten's good.
So what might be good in South Auckland, where I grew up with a big Pacifica, you
know, population or what might happen in Northland or South Island, whatever, needs
to be co-designed as you put it in.
And so we created that and we're in 70 schools at the moment.
We've got 300 on the waiting list and our goal is to be in 1200 schools.
And the feedback that we're getting about the curriculum is absolutely amazing.
It's built on a multicultural model called the mana model, which means giving, you
know, giving yourself the internal mana, mana means strength to deal with what's
happening today. So that was the sort of journey and getting back to the knighthood.
Yeah. Before you get to the knighthood, congratulations.
Fantastic. We've talked and we will continue to talk how we can work together to
keep that going as well. So well done on that, mate.
Thank you. So knighthood now.
Thank you. But I won't be happy until we have the best mental health stats in the
OCD. Right. So unfortunately, I believe at the moment is this not this not to do
with the individual. I know a lot of politicians, but I just think it's a broken
system at the moment for the pace that the world's going.
So, you know, you can't do things by committee now and not come out of those
committees and make a decision and understand where you need to put your money in
your intervention. Right.
So I have a saying in my house, if it's meant to be, it's up to me.
So I've got to do it and I've got to keep doing it.
Yeah. So I'm with you, brother.
Thank you. But I know you're the same as well, mate.
Like, you're not going to stop.
No, but you can take some thanks every now and again and move on.
You know, I do do congratulations to me.
I practice that in my mental health, you know, good.
My sister says, how are you, little brother? So fantastic.
How are you? She says, I'm good.
She said, why are you good? I said, I just looked in the mirror.
Are you vain? But I say, hey, if you don't love yourself.
No one else is. Yeah.
And that's where love starts.
If you love yourself, then you can give so much more love to other people.
So I say it to get a laugh from a vanity point of view.
But it's true. When I was unwell, I didn't like myself.
Yeah. You know, and part of my process going through my mental health was to learn
love myself warts and all either accept my warts or change them.
So, yeah, now I'm with you, brother.
So, sir, how did you become?
Yeah. So I'm living in Italy and I get a phone call and it's the governor general.
And I didn't know who the governor general was or even what they're supposed to be doing.
But anyway, I found out pretty quick.
And he said to me, J.K., we'd like to give you a KZSM.
Well, I said, what's that? Is that some sort of book or something?
Was it? I said, no, no, the knighthood.
And I went, oh, wow. No, thanks.
You know, way too young.
Don't deserve it. Not interested.
So he very kindly said, oh, look, J.K., can I give you some advice?
See, I always love to get advice because I don't know shit.
He said, I'll give you 24 hours to think about it.
And in fact, we've only got 24 hours because I couldn't find you.
And so you need to make a decision.
And so I rang my mum again.
Mum's always know mum.
And I said, Mum, this is what they've asked me to do.
And she said, well, that's a big on a boy.
I said, yes, a big on a mum.
And she said, well, why did you start this journey?
And I said, to help one person.
So she said, do you think the knighthood would give people hope?
Who are struggling? And I said, yeah, I do.
And she said, OK, cool.
And she said, the second question I have for you,
which is probably a little bit harder to answer, is are you prepared
to dedicate the rest of your life to your community?
By getting that on her. Wow.
So I thought about it and I thought, wow, that's that's a big call, Mum.
So the first one comes with a big weight.
Right. So you can get the title if you want.
But then really, to be knighted means you must give back to your community
and you must do that for the rest of your life.
So Mum was really the only one that explained,
you know, because I thought they're going to send me a cheque.
You get nothing, mate.
You know, most people think you get shit.
You get nothing. Nothing.
You get nothing. You get a little badge thing.
And did you get like a posh, a posh cup of tea or scone
at the Buckingham Palace or anything?
I didn't. I had a choice to go to Buckingham Palace or do it at home.
And I decided to do it at home with our governor general.
Well, you must have got a cup of tea or a bikki or something there.
Or scone. Yeah, got a scone.
Yeah. And I'm laughing about this
because I don't mean to be stupid about it.
But, you know, people think and this is where Mum cut right through,
you know, people think it's a prestige and you get something from it.
But you should never think like that.
You know, if you get an honour from anybody,
then it comes with responsibility.
So you should always put that responsibility first.
It's beautiful. I love it. I love your mum.
Yeah. Unfortunately, not with us anymore.
She's awesome. She was awesome. Very wise woman.
Well, you've spoken about her a lot.
And I think that's a really lovely sign to think that she was such
an important part of your life.
Now, JK, we have to finish up now, but I've got a fast five.
So you've got five questions to answer, OK?
What is your favourite holiday destination?
Waihi Beach. Family holiday home.
Kaipo in Māori actually means where you belong.
And I'm very lucky that I belong in three places.
Italy, Auckland and Waihi Beach.
Beautiful.
Have you got a favourite book
that you've ever read that you just go, oh, that's my go to,
or I learn a lot from that?
Yeah, it's called The Paladin.
It's about Winston Churchill's personal spy.
And it was the first book I ever read at 18 years of age.
Wow. Yeah, it was amazing.
Check that one out. What about favourite movie?
Shawshank Redemption.
Yes. So many people say that.
I believe in that one, too. I love it.
What about is there a quote that you heard or a saying
or a bit of advice that someone gave you that changed your life
or you live your life by?
Yeah, how much time you got, because it's a dad story.
I've got two.
If it's meant to be, it's up to me.
But my dad once said to me, if you died tomorrow, would you be happy?
He was on his death bed.
And I went, what sort of question is that, dad?
He said, well, you go home and think about it.
And if I'm still alive tomorrow, we'll talk about it.
He lived for another year.
So I went home and thought about it and I walked back into the room.
And I'm saying, you know, I wouldn't be a happy dad
because I want to do this and do that.
And he said to me, they're just givens.
Wanting to see your kids grow up, that's just a given like that.
He said to me, don't touch death to learn how to live like I did.
Every single day of my life until I touch death, I took for granted.
And then when I touch death, every day was a gift.
Don't make my mistake.
And I don't every day for me.
If I died tomorrow, I wouldn't be happy if I died tomorrow, Gus,
because there's so much shit that I want to do.
But I actually I'd be OK because I tell people that I love them every single day.
I try and be the best human I can be.
I try to be motivated.
I try to be inspired.
I try to be the best person that I can be every single day.
And that's all I worry about.
I can't control yesterday.
I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
And I just try and stack those good days up,
because if I die tomorrow, I need to be happy.
Beautiful.
Sorry, that's such a long answer.
I love it, mate. It's a great answer.
And lastly, sure.
And partners, fantastic supporters have got you for life.
Fantastic supporters of myself personally as well have given every one of our
guests an opportunity to give $10,000 Australian dollars
to the guests, favorite charity or foundation.
I'm assuming you're going to go for your own foundation
to keep you doing the work that you're doing.
But please tell us if that's correct and what you'll do with 10 grand.
I'm actually going to give it to you, mate.
Forgot your life, because I think after a few hours together
and I think bringing it to New Zealand, right, I've just traveled the country,
raising money, I raised a million dollars for the for the charity.
It's going to cost me 15 million dollars a year to actually,
I believe, get in 1200 schools and change the stats in a decade.
But I think the 10 grand, you'd do way better with it right now.
And I prefer when I travel the country, I say, if you give me money
and you're from, you know, Napier, the money needs to stay there.
So, you know, for sure, and partners, I'm pretty sure they'd be really confident
that the 10 grand, if they give it to you, they know where it's going.
They know it's going to go to a good cause.
So I'd prefer to do that.
It's not often I'm speechless.
But I am now.
That is the kindest thing that anyone's done.
Thank you so much.
And I'll make sure that you know exactly where that ten thousand dollars goes.
And I'll let people know that that's your generosity.
So thank you. And let me let me repay you at some stage as well.
I'm sure our relationship will move forward in a positive way.
And we both want the same things.
We just want Aussies and Kiwis to not worry alone
and to feel that they can talk about whatever's going on in their lives.
JK, it's been an absolute pleasure to spend some time with you.
And I look forward to catching up with you soon, my friend.
We'll have some fun when we do, mate.
Cheers. Bye, sir.
Well, what a wonderful chat with Sir John Kirwan.
And of course, he gave it to my charity, Gotcha For Life.
And we'll put that money towards building mental fitness here in Australia.
He understands exactly what I do with the work that he does in New Zealand,
how important ten thousand dollars could be.
There's five communities there that will get some mental fitness workshops
that can really help or sporting clubs or schools.
So thank you very much, Sir John.
Well, that's it for season four of Not An Overnight Success.
We are already working on season five.
I've got some wonderful guests ready for you as well.
But I must have a big shout out to Earl and Al and all the staff at
Shaw and Partners Financial Services.
Britt, of course, as well, that runs the show.
Really, I want to just thank you all very much for listing,
because without you guys, we wouldn't have a podcast.
Shaw and Partners have now given over four hundred thousand dollars
to charities around Australia based off this podcast,
and they need to be applauded.
But thank you so much for watching.
Thank you so much for listening.
And we look forward to seeing you for season five of Not An Overnight
Success in a few months time.
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