G'day, it's Gus Wallin, the host of Not An Overnight Success, the only podcast in the
world that gives $10,000 to every single guest to give to a charity of their choice.
Today, it's with Ellie Cole, a great mate of mine.
It was a really, really fun chat.
She's the most decorated Paralympian in Australian history.
She's an absolute ripper.
Every challenge that's ever been thrown at her, she takes it on, and most of the time,
This was an easy chat.
I hope you enjoy Ellie Cole.
Ellie Cole, how are you?
I'm great, thank you.
How's things with you?
Really good to see you.
I've got a bit of a throg in the throat, but that's just sort of overworking, I think.
But it's always positive to see you.
Every time I see you, I feel better for the experience.
Nobody tells me that very often.
Because you've got good energy, you see the brightness in life, and I like people like
Oh, I think everybody likes people like that.
You're like that as well, actually.
I feel like I'm like that.
Do you feel we need more of those people in this world?
I think it's important to have a balance, because then you have a bit of perspective
when you do meet people like that.
It's a breath of fresh air.
Yeah, I like that.
So tell us about you as a youngster, obviously a very challenging part.
Most people don't have to go through what you went through.
Tell us your journey.
Oh, well, if I go back to being a youngster, I was born in 1991, and I was really fortunate
to have a twin sister when I was born, who was kind of there throughout my whole childhood.
We lived on a mountain in a log cabin with like stained glass windows that my mum made,
like it was beautiful, out of Mount Evelyn.
Is that down on the mountain in the Wonsan Peninsula down in Victoria?
No, it's east of Melbourne.
East of Melbourne, okay.
Yeah, so it was a really great childhood.
And then, as you mentioned, the challenging part came along where I was diagnosed with
cancer at the age of two, and underwent a year of chemotherapy and lost my leg when
Obviously, a very, very difficult time for my family, but for me, in hindsight, it's
I've absolutely loved my life.
I've been very fortunate to have so many amazing opportunities.
And I spoke a bit about perspective before, I've been very, very lucky that I even survived
my cancer journey, and I remember that every day.
And just ensure that when times are really difficult, I certainly appreciate those difficult
times as well, but very, very fortunate to still be here because I know that a lot of
the kids that I shared an oncology ward with weren't so lucky.
So yeah, very, very fortunate.
Have you had a chance to talk to your mum and dad about how they felt?
Because you were always so little, you were going through it, so you were just doing it
But as adults, with a daughter that they adore going through it, what was their experience
like through the cancer and losing the leg?
It's interesting.
A lot of us don't really ask our parents too many questions about what their experiences
were like until we're much older.
And I didn't ask my parents until I was maybe in my mid-20s about what their experience
was like, because I started to realise, hey, this has had a serious effect on my family.
And it was a really hard time on them.
Even now, I can't even say the word cancer to my mum without her just bursting into tears
My parents' relationship obviously became very strained during my chemo.
And I had an older brother, an older sister, and a twin sister who were left at home during
I was having chemo for a year, and I was in hospital for most of that time.
And they were at home, and they didn't really experience a normal childhood either.
And so in a way, I suppose I have a small sense of survivor's guilt about what I put
my family through.
And I think that's what certainly motivated me when I was an athlete, because I felt
like I really had to make up for something.
And I know that that sounds silly to say, because nobody chooses to have cancer.
But it's just part of the emotions that come with the diagnosis, I guess.
And I think a lot of people don't understand that when someone's diagnosed with cancer,
and they do get better, the after effects can happen for decades and decades.
And it reverberates onto so many different people.
I certainly have a real soft spot for the families of patients who have cancer, as well
as the patient themselves.
What were your mum and dad like?
What are they like?
My mum, she wears her heart on her sleeve.
She's very emotional, very in touch with her emotions, and you could just be sitting out
on the back porch with her with a beer, and all of a sudden the conversation goes really
And she's someone that really likes to reflect on what her experiences have been like.
She was a very loving mother when I was growing up, and now she's a palliative care nurse.
So once we all kind of left home, she turned, I suppose, her caring nature and turned it
into being a palliative care nurse, which is amazing.
My dad is actually the complete opposite.
He was very hard when I was young.
I've become much closer to him as an adult, actually.
But he has an engineering background, so everything that he does is very logical.
But it's a nice balance.
It's a nice balance with my parents, with someone who is really in touch with, I suppose,
their emotional side and the other person who's very, very logical.
So regardless of what kind of challenge I face in my life, I can always find a parent
who has exactly the right words that I need to hear.
Isn't that great?
Between the two of them.
Did they make it through everything?
Are they still together?
They did separate when I was young, and I think they were separated for about two or
I have memories of going and staying at my dad's house, and I remember waking up one
morning and I'm like, where's mum?
You should be here, right?
And I think that was the moment that my parents began getting back together again.
But they're really sweet now.
I think going through that separation, like I said before, you can appreciate the other
And I've got memories of being in my late teens and dad leaving a little rose on my
They're really cute.
It really doesn't happen that often once people make the move away, they don't tend to get
back together again.
There's normally a reason why they've split and could be another person or their lives
But so lovely that they were able to sort of be vulnerable enough to find that love
We should make a movie about them.
I just haven't heard it that often.
It's just a lovely story.
What about your other siblings?
Tell me about them.
So my twin sister, her name's Brittany.
If you call her Britney Spears, she does not like that at all.
It's like trauma from her childhood coming through.
But she's very strong willed.
She was always very supportive of my athletic endeavours when I was a young child.
And I have a lot of memories of her when I was a kid.
And I was upset because I had to face a lot of adversity when I was younger with people's
low expectations of me, I guess, as a girl with a disability.
She was always the one who would sit down with me in the corner of a room with an arm
around me and tell me that, you know, I could achieve anything I ever wanted to.
So she was an amazing sister.
And she's a bit of a black sheep of our family, I guess you would say.
She's incredible.
Her favourite things to do are video games.
That's how she met her husband.
And she's training to be an Olympic shooter, actually.
So she's going for the Olympics.
So she's hoping to get on the plane to Paris.
Yeah, she's hoping to get on the plane to Paris.
So there's three girls who are on the shooting team who are all just as good as each other.
And it's pretty much whoever's the best on the day.
So I keep telling her she's got a 33% chance of making the team.
Is it just one of the three that make it?
But she just missed out on the Tokyo Games.
So she's going for Paris.
And the great thing about shooting, Gussie, you could do it, you know, in terms of it's
a sport where, you know, no matter what age you are, you can still compete.
It's not like it relies on, you know, your muscle recovery, like being a swimmer or being
an athletics does.
So if she doesn't make this team, I think she'll keep going until she does.
Yeah, she's amazing.
OK, so we've got to make sure.
So Brittany Cole.
Brittany Melbourne, her name is.
OK, she's known about called Melbourne.
Yeah, it's her married name.
And it was quite funny.
Last year, she told me that if she has a daughter, she'll name her daughter after me.
But she's like, I'll name it after your middle name.
And I was like, Brittany, my middle name is Victoria.
You cannot name your child Victoria Melbourne.
That would be a little bit too much.
OK, it needs a rethink.
It needs a rethink.
OK, other siblings?
My older sister, Asha.
Yeah, she's her and I best friends.
We talk on the phone two or three times a day.
She's a primary school teacher, very cheeky and just has absolutely no sense of reality
I tell her she's cooked every day.
So she's entertaining in her perspective of the world more than anything, because it's
just a ludicrous.
Is she normally wrong?
No, she just jokes around.
She has like really big dreams, but most of them are pretty silly, like, you know, save,
I don't know, some famous movie actor, Ryan Reynolds came to Sydney.
She'd be like, oh, you know, maybe I'll go and see if he's got a date or something like
she's just ridiculous.
Yeah, I like that.
She's very, very funny.
And then my older brother, Dane, he's got a son, Ethan.
So I've got a nephew.
He was diagnosed with Crohn's disease when he was eight, nearly lost his life to that
when I was just starting out in high school.
So I think that's probably why my mum turned to nursing, because she was always in hospital
with either my brother or myself.
Yeah, he was also very sick, but he's healthy now.
He's got a colostomy bag and yeah, he used to be very, very skinny and malnourished when
I was growing up because he couldn't take in any of his food.
And now that he's had his surgery, he's a very big guy.
He goes to the gym every day.
And like I was with him last week and he just picked up like a 20 kilo bag of flour like
So he's completely the opposite of what he was when I was a kid.
He's really strong and healthy now.
I'm so glad to hear that.
So for you remembering back to when you were little and going through what you went through,
Like you say, you survived something incredible.
You lost your leg.
What was that like trying to manage?
And what was it like back then in terms of them helping you?
Because your leg now, I don't even notice, like I've been working with you at Channel
Nine and stuff and you make jokes of it.
You laugh about it.
You have a lot of fun with it.
What was it like for you initially as a young kid to deal with it?
Like if I'm going to be completely honest, I was pretty naive when I was a young girl
and I was really protected by my family.
And so I came home from my surgery where I had my leg removed and kind of just went straight
back into normal life and obviously had a few challenges with just everyday things.
Like I had to learn how to walk again and, you know, ride a bike again.
And I was always chasing my twin sister.
So it didn't take me very long to figure out how to do most things.
I think that was a really great lesson for me to learn at a young age is that, yeah,
I have a challenge in front of me, but there's always a way around it.
It might take a little bit longer, but yeah, we always found a solution.
And same, I think that's the same thing with my swimming career.
I started swimming eight weeks after my amputation and I went around in circles for a while.
But I found my way around that as well.
And it was a really important lesson to learn from a young age because obviously now I do
like to experience a lot of life.
And whenever I'm trying a new activity for the first time, you know, the people around
me are always like, I think this might be challenging, but how can we find a solution?
And it's always just a conversation.
And, you know, sometimes you find maybe I actually can't do this, but, you know, you
always explore every avenue that you can until you do tend to find one.
So, yeah, that was kind of what life was like.
It was challenging at first, but we always found a way around it.
So you built that emotional muscle sort of pretty early on in your life, those invisible
muscles that a lot of us struggle with because we never feel like we need to to worry about
it. You found that early on.
Yeah, absolutely. And I said before that the biggest challenge that I actually faced when
I was younger was not anything to do with my disability.
It was, in fact, everybody else's perception of what I could and couldn't achieve.
It's like everybody decided that for me before I could actually decide it for myself.
And it still happens every now and then in 2023, but not so much.
But when I was a kid, like, I remember going through primary school and I wanted to play every sport
that I could. And I was always sidelined by the teachers because they were worried that I was going to
hurt myself. And I just wanted to get out there with my friends like, yeah, sure.
Playing football may have been a bit dangerous, maybe for the other competitors.
I could like knock their teeth out with my prosthetic knee or something.
But, yeah, I've always found that really challenging, is that I always dreamed big and I
always wanted to do whatever my twin sister was doing.
But I was always the one who was, I suppose, there was always a lot of concern around
because everybody was just worried that I was going to hurt myself.
But that's what being a kid's about.
Do you think people sort of that actually came from a good place that they were trying to protect you?
It absolutely comes from a good place.
And that's why I don't get upset when, like I said before, it still happens to this day.
Like, I'll be walking around the shopping centre and someone would just randomly come up and ask
if they can carry my bags.
And I know that's coming from a good place.
And I'm always like, that's really sweet, but I'm OK.
I can manage. Thank you very much.
And I know that it's just what people have grown up with.
They've seen people with disabilities and their first instinct is to protect that person.
And I know that that's what most people have grown up with.
And it's wonderful that you want to protect your community and those around you.
But on the other side, when I go to a Paralympic Games and I see people who are achieving
amazing things, like it's just my experience is very different.
And I don't expect everybody to understand that.
So I do come from a place of understanding.
And it's just an education piece for me.
And that's why I love being a Paralympian as well.
It's an extra element of being a Paralympian.
Yeah, I can't imagine a better person to talk about that as well than you,
because of your personality and your attitude to life.
People will understand and they'll listen to you.
Yeah, let's do a push up competition right now.
You and me? I mean, I've just got the shoulder at the moment, just a little bit of a niggle.
Yeah, otherwise I'd be totally into it.
So you jump in the pool, like most Australian kids,
we have to learn to swim at quite a young age.
You go around and around in circles for how long?
So, again, when I jumped in the pool, they said it would take a whole year to swim in a straight line,
because they're like, she's going around in circles.
I was kind of like those toy boats that you see with like a broken rudder.
It took me, I think, six weeks or seven weeks or something, not very long.
But I absolutely loved the water because I could just take off my leg and just jump in the water
and feel this amazing sense of freedom.
Like wearing a prosthetic is very uncomfortable and it's quite limiting in a way.
Is that still the case now or was that with the technology when it was when you were little?
I think it's still the case now because I like to jump around and move around and move very quickly.
And my leg, like the prosthetic I have now, for example, has something called anti-stumble mode,
where if I try and bend down really quickly, it thinks I'm falling.
So it will like lock. I'm like, no, I'm trying to like bend down quickly.
Like, you know, so I actually much prefer not wearing a prosthetic and getting around without one
because I can move a lot quicker.
OK. Yeah, I'm all about speed.
Good on you. That's awesome.
So I love swimming because I can just, you know, swim without my prosthetic.
And it's just me and my body.
It's I don't have to kind of teach a computer that's attached to me about what I want to do.
I just know what I want to do.
Awesome. So you jump in the water, you automatically feel awesome.
You feel like, OK, this is my thing. Yeah.
Six, seven weeks, you start going straight.
Does some person at the swim school go, aha, I'll take you under my wing.
Do you have that like hero from that moment that said you could be a swimmer?
No, I don't. Oh, well, there's 10 minutes of the podcast.
So I had my learn to swim teachers.
And the great thing about them is that they treated me the same as everybody else.
And so I just went through the program that all kids go through and graduated on the other side.
And that was the end of my learn to swim story.
It's a pretty classic Australian childhood story with the learn to swim program.
Right. So what then happens for you to become this legendary swimmer that you became?
So this is where it began, where I was sitting at my kitchen table one day
and I'd just seen Swan Lake, like the ballet.
And I told mom, hey, beautiful. I love dancers, you know, love dancing.
I want to be a ballerina. When I was younger, like, can I try it?
You've got a ballerina.
And she effectively like scoffed at me from across the table and said, why don't you try this?
Like, go to swim squad. And I said, I don't want to do that.
Like, that's ridiculous. I want to be a ballet dancer.
I've just finished all this learn to swim. I don't want to keep swimming.
I want to try something new.
And so she said, just go to this one swim squad session and see what you think.
And so I arrived there and there's this coach standing there.
His name was Russell Parsons.
First thing he asked me is, what football team do you go for?
AFL, because I grew up in Melbourne.
And I said, I go for the Melbourne Demons.
And his eyes lit up.
And he's like, as long as you're not a Collingwood supporter, I'm fine with that.
You know, I go for the Demons as well. Awesome.
So he took me under his wing and, you know, best day ever.
I had the best time.
All of the Collingwood supporters were put in lane eight.
And I was treated like a queen because I went for the same footy team as him.
And honest to God, because of that reason, I kept going back.
It was because of that connection with him.
Yeah, that connection with my coach.
And I always think if he went for a different football team,
my swimming career may have never happened.
That's so good. Are you still mates with him now?
No, he sadly passed away about 10 years ago.
But he had a huge influence on obviously myself,
but also another one of our Paralympic swimmers, Cole Pearce,
who is currently training for Paris.
He was one of Cole's first swim coaches.
So, you know, I really want to see Cole succeed now that I'm retired.
And just because of, you know, his connection with Russell when we were kids.
That's absolutely awesome.
So at what point does it all open up for you when you go,
actually, I could have a career here.
I could I could become an Olympian.
Like, how does that all work?
So it didn't initially open up for a while because I didn't even think that I could,
you know, go to games and represent Australia.
It wasn't even in, you know.
So the Paris are a huge part of everything now.
Yeah, not when I was a kid.
So what year was this then?
How many years did you have to wait before it all opened up for you?
So I actually I didn't even know really about the Olympics when I was a kid.
I only learned about the Olympics when it came to Sydney 2000.
My dad put it on a projector screen.
You know, onto the lounge room wall in our living room.
And I watched like Ian Thorpe and Susie O'Neil, Petria Thomas all competing.
And I loved Ian Thorpe.
Like, I just wanted to marry him more than anything in this world.
And I started going to the swimming pool and pretending to be like Thorpey.
I would find the biggest fin that I could size 100 foot and be like, I'm Thorpey.
I didn't know about the Paralympics at all then.
You know, after the Olympics finished, I turned my television off.
Didn't know about the Paralympics.
And then it was not until Athens 2004, I came across the Paralympics by chance.
And I saw people like in wheelchairs zipping around a rugby court,
like guys on these prosthetics that looked like springs, like bounding down a court,
you know, people with no vision, soccer and football.
And I couldn't believe, like, that there was a world out there of sport
for people with disabilities.
And that's kind of when my whole world opened up.
So that was 2004.
And then I made my first Australian swim team in 2006, two years later.
And I was already pretty good by 2004 because I mentioned that I didn't know about the Paralympics.
And so I grew up training in like an able-bodied program.
And despite the kids having two legs next to me, I wanted to beat them more than anything.
And so I was always had pretty high standards of myself.
And I always wanted to be the best in my squad.
I didn't care if I had a disability or not.
And so by the time I found the Paralympics, I was already like pretty much wiping the floor
with everyone, which is great.
That's awesome. So that gave you confidence.
Plus, you had that mindset of like, I'm unbeatable here.
Yeah, well, I'd been competing against athletes with two legs for my whole life up until that point.
And then I found the Paralympics. I'm like, that person has one leg.
I could, like, I can smash these guys.
But that wasn't the case.
It was a good thought, but incorrect.
Yeah, like, it's quite funny now. I still have that confidence.
You know, when I retired from swimming last year,
I started looking at what other sports I could play.
And I was like, well, wheelchair tennis, like Dylan Alcott can play wheelchair tennis.
I can bloody play wheelchair tennis.
And I looked up who my competitors would be and I was like, oh, no, I don't think I could beat them.
They're pretty talented.
It's not until you get into it you realize.
So just going back to Thorpe, now your mate's with him.
You've met him. Does he know your undying love?
Did he know about that? Have you given him that
vulnerability about how you felt about him back in the day?
Absolutely not. And I know that you probably will now.
I'm definitely going to now.
That's awesome, though, because I know what an absolute, you know, superstar he was for for everyone.
We all loved him and I'm glad that now he's living his his best life.
So I'm surprised that no one in your able body squad
didn't sort of know about paras and go, Ellie, you should be doing this.
Like you had to sort of stumble across it.
There was no one giving you the the drum.
Yeah, it was crazy. And like I discovered the Paralympics in 2004.
And then primary school teacher of mine as well told me that there was like
in our school sport program that there was like a pathway for athletes with a disability
because I'd always tried to make like the national team and stuff.
And I was always missing out to able bodied kids.
And then when I found this school sport pathway as well, I'm like, OK, there is actually a pathway here.
But it wasn't presented to me on like a silver platter.
It wasn't obvious like it is now.
And so I'm super pumped for our future para athletes because they're growing up now
knowing that there is a world out there of sport for them.
And they're going to be developing, you know, from the ages.
Like I'm going to be picking para athletes from the age of three.
I'm going to be going like rehab pools and be like you, you've got talent.
Yes. And, you know, there's a pathway for them to follow now.
So, yeah, our para athletes by Brisbane 2032 are going to be nuts.
Like they'll be as fast as Olympians, I dare say, if not better.
That is absolutely fantastic.
I remember doing the London Olympics for Foxtel.
And I was actually the guy for Foxtel that had to chat to the swimmers when they came out of the pool.
Right. It should have been your job.
It might be your job moving forward.
But so I was there and the girls did pretty well the first couple of days.
And then the boys didn't do very well at all.
That was a tough game.
It was a tough game for the swim team.
And then I went and did postcards from London.
So all the little snippet bits you played in between the activities and the events and so forth.
And then I had to had had a week where I could just chill in London.
The Paralympics then started. Oh, my God.
It was so fantastic.
Every ticket was sold.
That London Oval or whatever it was called, the stadium, stadium, sports guy here, the main seat.
I'm a bit tongue tied today.
That stadium was going off.
And then I realized I went, oh, OK, this is serious now.
Like, this is even probably even more exciting than the able body Olympics.
Oh, it's so great. I love the Paralympics.
And like it sounds like you went to the athletics.
Yeah. What's really interesting is, but particularly in the athletics world,
is that the technology of the running blades that they have now are amazing to the point.
I don't know if you remember Oscar Busterius was wanting to compete.
Of course. And they said, you know, this guy that has no legs has an advantage to the Olympic guys,
because, you know, it's going to be Bolt.
Yeah. And I'm like thinking, I can't believe that we're living in a world of media now
where they're saying that a guy with no legs has an advantage over Usain Bolt, which to be fair,
you know, he probably did.
But that's what I love about the Paralympics is the adaptations that they've found in sport.
And it's amazing.
Like, I saw a guy I remember at London.
He had two prosthetics of the same one that I have, X3s, not a BMW.
And I remember, like, looking at him walk around the village and I thought, he's so cool.
Like, I wish I had no legs so I could look like that.
Isn't that amazing? Really has changed over time to the being such a positive thing now.
So for you, you are in your first Aussie team, 2006.
Yeah. How do you get that call?
Is it an email? Is it a text to say that you're in the Australian team?
So what happens is you go to a competition to try and qualify.
So there's certain qualifying times that you have to hit.
And those qualifying times are based on the world rankings from the year prior.
And so they'll get like the top three world rankings of last year, so for the 100m freestyle.
And then that means that you're at podium.
So that's an A qualifying time because you have a chance to make a podium.
So anyone that swims in A qualifying time is automatically on the swim team.
And then it goes, I think, down to top five times from the world rankings last year.
And that's a B time.
And then if they haven't filled all of the A time slots,
then they start filling it with B slots, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does. So for you, were you an A slotter?
I cannot remember. It was like 100 years ago.
What? All I care about is that I made it.
So you're on the team.
I was on the team and I was 14 years old.
So I was still at school.
My whole swim team was in their early 20s.
And I was this annoying 14 year old who was so excited to be there.
Yeah, I was super annoying for you.
Yeah, I was very annoying.
I was a very annoying, loud kid.
I remember from my final in my 100 metres backstroke at that world
championships in 06, they blew the whistle.
And I dived in feet first because you start backstroke in the water.
Yeah. And I was looking around and I found my swim coach.
I was waving at her right before the race started.
I was just so excited to be there.
How'd you go in that race?
I won a silver medal.
So I won a silver medal at that world championships and it was in that race.
But I was always the athlete who behind the blocks was always having the best time,
always having fun, waving to everybody.
And I remember my coach always saying, Ellie, you need to focus.
And I was thinking like that might work for everybody else,
but that does not work for me.
And it was always something that I battled with my coach in my early years,
because I was always the one that was having fun, even up until the day
I retired, basically.
And it just was something that worked for me.
So they thought that you'd be even better if you did what everyone else did, i.e. focus.
Yeah, I think they just thought that I wasn't taking the event seriously
because I was looking around having the best time ever. OK.
And I was taking the actual race seriously.
But as soon as that up until the point where that whistle blew,
I was having fun with it, you know. Yeah.
And I've always had fun with my sport. It's always been like that.
I imagine a lot of sports people would love to have have that feeling of
happiness and enjoying it.
There's so many sports people that I talk to that those moments
are just very hard for them. Yeah.
And I don't know when it turns so serious and why, because we're all young athletes.
We all start sport for a reason and we all love it for that particular reason.
And it's like somewhere along the way, we lose that part of our childhood
where it's do or die and it's not do or die.
It's sports, like, you know.
So I've always just kind of taken that mentality into it.
The actual race itself, yes, I took very, very seriously.
But I also wanted that element of, hey, I'm here because
I absolutely love this sport and I want to have fun with it.
Yeah, that was my first world championships.
Do you think you were annoying or you think you were annoying
because you said it yourself, because of your relaxed attitude,
everyone else was already in that sort of really serious mode,
life and death training and stuff.
That's why you came across a bit annoying.
Absolutely. Like, I remember the year after that world champs in 2007.
I went to a competition in Berlin and there was this athlete from Canada
who was in the lane next to me and I was like chatting to everyone.
And she actually said, can you stop?
I'm trying to focus here.
And I'm like, well, this could be the thing
that I could throw her off her game here.
This could be my strategy. Right.
And so from that moment on, I just kept talking to her.
And did you beat her more often than she beat you?
No, she was a very good athlete.
Oh, damn it. That's OK. Canada.
Actually, Lisa. We love our Canadians.
Yeah, Lisa wasn't American.
So 2006, you get the silver medal.
You're on the team from that moment on.
Do you know how many medals you won?
Do you know world records?
Are you one of those people keeper of this knowledge?
If you ask me a specific question, I may or may not be able to answer it
with in terms of metal hole.
Right. Because there's some people like Glenn McGuire and Cricket.
I love him. Yeah.
So every single wicket of his five hundred odd wickets,
you can say number three hundred and forty three and he'll go.
Yep. Caught behind, caught by Healy.
You'll go through the whole thing.
Do you reckon he's just pulling your leg, though?
Absolutely not. All fat checked.
Absolutely. Fact check.
So there are people that know their stuff.
I spoke to Kyle Chalmers the other day.
He's got he had no idea how many medals he'd won.
Yeah, I don't think so.
I think 20 maybe golds or something.
Is he talking about world championship?
I don't know about world champs, comp games, Olympics.
I know the Paralympics because everyone reminds me about it.
OK, what are your Paralympics numbers?
So I know I have 17 because that was obviously highlighted
very publicly for Tokyo because it meant that I'd won the most
Paralympic medals out of any female in Australian history.
And so I know it was 17.
I know it's six golds and I know
I think it's five silver.
So what would that make the rest?
I don't know. Six runs.
I think it's six, five, six from memory.
But don't ask me what those events are for.
And for example, if you ask me,
what was your 400 meter result in London?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
So why don't you know?
Because a lot has happened.
It's a lot of information.
Do you know how many races I've competed in?
But they're big events, right?
Aren't they like the Olympic Games?
Yeah, but if you think, OK, so I've won 17 medals, which means
and there's a lot of races that I haven't won a medal in at all.
And so say at a Paralympic Games, I've raced in,
I don't know, 30 races.
I've done heats and finals for all of those races.
I'm not going to remember 60 events.
I know Glenn McGrath can remember 500 wickets, but
I'm just not going to remember that.
Yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah.
What is the most memorable if there's one that stands out?
There's a couple, but I would have to say the most memorable one for me
was probably the 100 meters freestyle in London.
I wonder if you were there.
Did you see any of the swimming?
No, I had to go back and actually and force you back to Australia.
So that 100 meter freestyle event was really important for me.
One, because my all time competitor and ultimate hero,
Natalie Datois from South Africa, was retiring at that event, on that event.
And she was someone who I looked up to for my whole career.
And I had never beaten her up until that point.
That was the only time I ever beat her.
And I was so unexpected.
Like, I remember swimming down the second 50
and I was breathing away from Natalie.
I didn't know where she was in the pool.
And I just assumed she was ahead of me.
And when I touched the wall, I still didn't realize that I'd won
until I looked up at the swimming block, because in London, if you won a race,
it would illuminate with just like one light bulb.
Yeah. And I saw this light bulb and I still hadn't processed
that I could have ever beaten her.
And I did. And then I looked over at her and she was retiring.
She was really upset.
And I felt really guilty.
So I didn't really get to have my moment.
Yeah. I was so proud of myself.
And it's since been told that my partner,
who we've been together for since London, was actually at that event.
It's like the first time that she ever saw me compete kind of thing in the crowds.
Oh, and we didn't even know each other then.
So it's just a nice event.
It's a nice event for me to reflect on because I was just so proud of myself.
And everyone that I kind of loved was at that stadium,
even if I didn't realize it at the time.
Yeah. You know, now, yeah.
Have you watched that back?
No, I don't like watching my events back.
They make me really emotional for some reason.
I had a lot of difficult moments leading into London
that don't bring up good memories.
And so whilst London, the games itself was amazing,
actually, the preparation for it caused quite a lot of trauma.
And so I don't like to look back on those races
because it brings up a lot of other memories and a real shame.
Like, I remember Mum's really proud, obviously.
And when people come over for coffee and tea, like, she'll show my faces.
And every time she plays one of them, I have to leave.
Like, I just can't be in the same house as that race playing.
Oh, really? And it's I don't know why.
And I know Susie O'Neill has a similar experience.
Like, she can't watch her races back.
And it's just it's a lot to process.
And I don't think I'm ready.
I don't think I'll ever be ready to sit down and watch them.
Oh, yeah, that is sad because it's so many wonderful memories for other people.
And that's a big moment for you, too.
It's a shame that you can't relive it.
It's OK. You can move on to other things.
Yeah. No, and that's exactly what you do.
And talking about that, did you retire a little early?
I spoke to some people and they reckon you might have gone a little early.
Just, you know, I was like 30 years old.
I know. But just in terms of your ability and so forth,
are you are you happy with your decision to to not be swimming competitively anymore?
Absolutely. I wanted to retire after the 2008 Games.
And then I wanted to retire again in 2012.
And then I wasn't happy, as I said, with my preparation for 2012.
So I'm like, OK, I'll go to Rio.
And then Rio was like the shittest games ever.
It was so disgusting.
And I thought, I can't retire on this game.
So I'll go to Tokyo.
So in the end, you couldn't wait like you've been waiting 12 years for.
Yeah. And then after Tokyo finished,
I was training with the Campbell sisters leading into Tokyo.
We were all talking about going to the Commonwealth Games together
because the Commonwealth Games is the only competition
where para athletes and able bodied athletes are able to travel together.
I thought it'd be really nice, you know, to retire at the Commonwealth Games
with two of my teammates who I've trained with for three years next to me.
And so I made the decision to go on to the Commonwealth Games after Tokyo.
And then Bronte decided to go and work.
And then Kate went off on holidays and they left me there.
But it was actually nice because I said goodbye to my whole Paralympic family
in Tokyo, all my athletes and, you know, people I've grown up with.
And then I was able to say goodbye to all of my Olympic friends,
able bodied friends at the Commonwealth Games.
So, yeah, it was so hard in between Tokyo and the Commonwealth Games.
So there was like a period of eight months where I just didn't want to train anymore
to get up every morning and train twice a day, like six hours a day.
When I just knew that the end was so close.
Yeah. Like, have you seen marathon runners when they're running, running, running?
And they say the finish line, as soon as they lay eyes on that finish line,
their whole body collapses.
Yeah. It was that feeling.
Yeah. It was awful.
Not that I have do it at your level, but I ran the 2014 New York Marathon
and I literally turned around the corner into Central Park,
which is where the finishing line is.
And there's 800 meters to go.
There's a huge, big sign.
And there's a whole lot of really, really, really fit people stopped.
Yeah, it happens.
And they're like, I don't think I can do 800 meters.
Like, I don't know what I don't know.
Their whole head just stops.
And, you know, I'm in my fifth hour, you know, just battling through.
And I'm like, you guys, right?
And they're like, just got to get my head right.
Because they thought that it was they were going in and it was going to finish.
800 meters was too much for them.
I know. They had to get their head right.
I would love to know what like, what do you think the psychology behind that is?
Yeah. Well, I also was told that if you run past the finishing line,
like by 10 meters or so, you're actually an ultra marathon runner.
And I always wanted to do that.
But my mate was standing there with the medal, put it around my neck.
And then my wife and kids came out and we had this big cuddle on.
And I completely forgot about it.
But that was my absolute goal to run through the line and do another 10 meters.
And I never did it.
We have to do it again.
Well, it's 10 years next year.
So that's what I'm trying to perhaps think about doing that.
OK, you heard it here first.
You heard it here first.
Are you at all worried or concerned about your future?
What do you think, you know, such a huge part of your life is finished?
What's the future going to be for you?
The transition for athletes is very difficult.
I had heard about this for years and years before I made the decision to retire.
In fact, the first even the first few years of me being on the swim team,
I was already meeting with an athlete career and education advisor
because they want to set you up and make sure that you have a plan for,
you know, whether you choose to retire or not.
Some people have to retire due to injury.
And so I'd been planning my retirement for like 10 years.
And I didn't actually I haven't struggled with my retirement at all.
And I've been one of the very, very lucky ones,
because I know that a lot of people, it's a huge part of their life
that they give up.
But I was so ready, Gussie, like I couldn't wait to get to the end.
And I'm still very close with a lot of the athletes on the swim team
and a lot of the athletes on the Olympic team.
And I still spend a lot of time with these athletes.
But now I don't have to train anymore.
Like, I don't have to do it.
You can get up this morning and pump out a few Ks.
And it's like I'm so in the honeymoon period still,
because I wake up in the morning, I make my coffee and I just sit and enjoy it.
And I'm like, I'm just so lucky because, I don't know,
I was I'm good friends with Broncie Campbell still,
and she's training for Paris at the moment.
Yeah, she's back. Yeah, I tried to ring her last night.
She's like, I'm at the gym.
And I was like, oh, God, I remember those days like, you know,
glad you're not. Yeah.
So I've been really fortunate.
And I try not to, like,
I suppose, celebrate that too much,
because I know that a lot of athletes really struggle
and I don't want them to, like, look at the way that I feel about retirement
and be like, well, why don't I feel like that? Yeah.
And so I'm really supportive of other athletes that retire.
And I know that and appreciate that I've been very lucky not to feel that way.
But I've got amazing support networks.
I've had a lot of great career opportunities,
but I had to work really hard to set up those opportunities
when I was an athlete.
And I think that's one thing that I identified,
is that it all just doesn't get given to you at the end.
And but there are so many amazing people who are there to facilitate that
and who are there to help that.
And you have to be open to so many opportunities.
And so I made sure that I was as open to as many things as I could be.
And I'm effectively saying yes to everything.
It's like a human experiment.
You know, three months ago, I was asked to be the team general manager
for the Australian Youth Commonwealth Games team.
And my first instinct when I was asked to do that job was just just say no,
because I didn't feel like I was qualified in that space.
I'd never worked in sports administration before.
But I was disappointed that my first instinct was to say no.
And then I was thinking, there is no way that I can say no to an opportunity like this.
And whilst it was really scary to do that job,
I had an amazing team around me like I did when I was an athlete.
It was a shit show. The actual games like everything that could have gone wrong
But I absolutely loved it because I had an amazing team with me.
And I would do it again in a heartbeat.
And yeah, it's just saying yes to everything within reason.
Channel Nine came a-knockin.
We've worked there together.
I'm assuming you're going to be part of the Olympics and that sort of stuff.
So there's a media side as well that keeps you busy.
Do you enjoy that?
I love that. And more than anything, I've really enjoyed meeting different people
like you, Gussie, and the opportunities there that has presented themselves.
But I've been really impressed with Nine because, you know,
I think they've taken a real punt on me in terms of I don't have too much
experience in the media on the other side of the microphone.
And I'm really fortunate to be going to Paris with the Olympic coverage
and doing your job, the swimming interviews on pool deck.
That's great. And I've I'm a four time Paralympian.
I've never been to an Olympics.
Like, if I think about it, I nearly like start crying because I'm so excited
to be able to do that.
And I think it's a true reflection on, you know, the approach that Nine are having.
They're sending a Paralympic athlete to do Olympic coverage.
They're not selecting an able bodied news reporter to do that.
And I think that in itself is showing how the world's changing.
So I've really enjoyed working with those guys and, you know,
I'll be hosting the Paralympics as well.
Yeah, you're an absolute natural.
You're a gun. You know your stuff.
You're passionate about it and you're real and authentic.
And I think COVID in particular knocked a lot of that out of us.
We just want authentic and real now.
Everyone does. And that's who you are.
So that's why Channel Nine are so smart to lock you in.
That's the truth. I know that's hard for you to say for yourself,
but that's that's the truth of it.
No one will be better off.
You've got a big name like an Ian Thorpe, right?
Great to hear Thorpe's thoughts on it and stuff.
But your passion, your you'll be the realness in that coverage.
Yeah, Thorpe, he was an amazing athlete and my athletic career.
Things went wrong, actually, more often than they went right.
I know that can be really challenging for a lot of our Olympic athletes
who, you know, they put everything on their line their whole life
to try and win this Olympic gold medal.
And it happens for the very few.
And so I think it's going to be nice for them to have someone on pull deck
who understands what it's like when things don't go to plan
and obviously celebrate with them when things do go to plan.
And they'll know you, too.
They'll look you in your eyes. They get it.
I remember being in London and I went to the markets
and I bought all these like kangaroos off this guy
because I wanted to have something to give to the athletes
or to show them that I was the Aussie bit because I was at Foxtel.
We were like slot number 47.
So they had the Olympic coverage, the BBC,
you know, one of the American channels and Channel 9.
I think it's called ESPN.
Someone like that.
I don't know, but they were they were literally they could see the pool.
And then I was sort of tucked about 40, 50 meters further down.
And I just wanted them to know that as I walked down,
that there was another Aussie one there.
And we, Foxtel had every we had, I think we had 20 odd channels.
We won the Logie for the best coverage.
It was incredible. Oh, wow.
But I wanted them to know that there was another Aussie there
just waiting for them.
Win, lose or draw.
And we just wanted to let you know that everything is going to be all right.
And I just remember Steph Rice, she had a bit of a moment
and I was just looking at her and I had Eddie McGuire in my ear
and they were going, OK, five seconds are going to come straight to you.
And I just looked at it and I said, do you need a cuddle?
And she's like, yes.
And she started crying.
And so it came to us with us holding each other.
And she was just sobbing.
And I just remember thinking that's what I just felt human to do that.
That's the type of stuff that you'll do as well.
There won't be that to that was your personal best time.
It won't be all already triggered in your mind.
You'll read the situation in front of you.
And I think that's why nine so clever to get.
Yeah, I think that would have been really nice when I was an athlete
to have someone who was there and just gave you a hug, because
it's like, you know, when you're an athlete, you do your race,
you get out and you do your post race interview.
And it's very formal, like, you know, and you've just gone through
and it's such an emotional experience.
All of a sudden, you have to put like a game face on for like 30 seconds.
But sometimes what you want is just a hug.
Yeah. So that would have been really nice.
Like, I remember when I retired at the Commonwealth Games,
Kate Campbell did my post race interview.
And yeah, it's just like as soon as the camera was off, you know, hug.
And it was just amazing to have someone there who knows what it's like
and who knows the human element of being an athlete.
Just that connection and relief and just being human for a few seconds.
Yeah. What it's about.
So you make sure you bring that.
Oh, that's good advice.
Don't worry about the script.
You just go with whatever you think.
So retirement's been pretty good for you.
Yeah, it's been fun.
Now, you spoke earlier about your partner.
So please tell us about her.
And you got some exciting news.
Like you feel like you're going to tell us now maybe that your family has started
and all that jazz. A lot's happening.
So Sylve and I met at London.
She was working for Paralympics Australia, actually.
Love at first sight or?
I was straight then.
But we met at the after party.
She worked for Paralympics Australia in the event, like event management side of things.
OK. And I was the one who had a few too many drinks.
And she was fighting with a fellow colleague on who was going to put me in a taxi
and get me back to the athlete's village.
And so it wasn't a good first impression by any means.
So did she did she get the the job of putting you in the taxi?
I can't even remember.
Right. I don't ask you questions like that.
So you're a straight athlete at the end of London.
Yeah. You made her nothing happens.
What happens then?
Well, we got back home to Australia and all of the athletes and staff always go through
a post-game blues where, you know, we've gone through an incredible experience
and then you spend the next three or four months really connecting with everyone.
So that's kind of where we connected.
Yeah, we just had a great time, really.
And I thought it was going to be a fling kind of thing.
And did you think that, oh, I'm actually gay?
Or did you think I might be bi or like, I went through a year?
Well, I grew up in a really conservative family.
So that wasn't even a thought process of mine, because I didn't even know it was an option.
OK. But I really enjoyed spending time with her.
I knew that. And I just thought it was just going to be a little fling.
And then, you know, feelings developed and we've been together for 11 years now,
a really long time.
And she's with me through like a double shoulder reconstruction,
all of the issues that happened post-London with my preparation.
And then although I won in Rio, I still felt I had a disappointing experience in Rio.
And then obviously went through Covid together.
And so just been through all the ups and downs and then retirement as well.
And right before Birmingham, we decided that we wanted to try and start to have a family.
And so we went started going through the process and it takes forever.
Do you know how hard it is to find like a donor, for example?
It's like everyone in Covid was trying to have a baby or something.
It was like nothing left.
So the actual process of even just finding and securing a donor was such a long process.
And then, yeah, we tried for a while and we had, you know, a few unfortunate things
happen throughout that process.
And it took a lot longer than what we thought.
But we had a positive pregnancy reading and I freaked out straight away.
I was like, oh, my gosh, this is going to completely change our lives.
And I am so excited, though.
It's like I wake up every morning so excited because I've got a lot of friends that have kids.
And everyone tells me how amazing it is.
And last week, we bought a house as well, because we were like,
I live in an apartment at the moment that's up two flights of stairs.
And I was like, I'm not carrying a baby up and down those stairs every day.
And we've been looking for a place for a while.
But yeah, the baby timeline kind of set things up a little.
So how does she feel?
She's what do you mean? How does she feel?
How does she feel like she's carrying this baby?
Like it's all happening. Is she excited?
Has she had morning sickness and all that stuff?
Oh, yes, she had morning sickness.
But it's kind of amazing because she's been wanting to be a mom for a long, long, long time.
And now that she's pregnant, it's just like become part of our everyday kind of thing.
I think I'm more excited.
Like she's just going through the motions.
Her body's obviously changing.
We had to go like maternity pants shopping the other day.
She's not fitting into any of her clothes anymore.
But I think, yeah, knowing that he's impending on his way and then we're having a new house
that we're going to be moving into and it's nice to start off like a new chapter of our lives
and have like a clean slate where it's going to be amazing.
So it was a really tough year for us.
And it feels like the cards are finally falling in our place, which is amazing.
It really was really challenging.
I don't think people really tell you about how challenging starting a family can be.
And I don't think like the support that's there is as it could be.
And you kind of rely very heavily on your family and friends throughout that time.
So, yeah, we're very lucky to have each other for sure.
Vicks and I, 29 years in December, we had eight pregnancies for our three children.
And, you know, the first time we told people we were pregnant, we had twins and then we lost them.
When we actually started talking about it a little bit more,
we realised how many other people were going through a similar situation.
And that's one of those things that people just don't talk about unless you feel like you can.
And that means someone has to be vulnerable enough to bring it up.
Yeah, I know. I agree.
I think when you first start the planning a parent journey,
you just assume that everything's going to work out straight away.
And it's not like that at all. And it's such an emotional roller coaster.
And, you know, you meet and talk with people who have lost babies.
And, you know, years and years after the fact, it has a huge effect on you.
And no one prepares you for that, I don't think, when you start.
So it's really important to be very vulnerable and talk about it,
because it's just an awful experience to go through.
And you've got to think how many people are going through that
and sitting on their own with no one to talk about it with.
I live my entire life with vulnerability and I find it to be so much better for it
because you're not worrying alone then.
Yeah. So what an exciting year you've got ahead.
It's going to be fantastic. You're going to be brilliant.
Well, I've had a lot of practice being an athlete and having no sleep.
Like, I'm really good at waking up at three o'clock in the morning.
It's kind of, you know, it's usually quiet time for me
when I was an athlete and work over that time.
I don't think it's going to be quiet time anymore.
But I'm going to have this beautiful boy who they grow so quickly, I've been told.
They do. Well, I remember in April 2000, Jack popped up
and I was talking to him this morning from London.
My daughter is actually 22 today, Ella.
She's on a rooftop bar getting on the drink in New York with all her mates.
And we did a little birthday dance.
Abby and I, who's 20, this morning too, Ella.
And I just thought, well, there's my three.
There's our three, I should say.
And it was yesterday that we're all, you know, together just bouncing around at home
and now we're empty nesters.
Yeah, it's amazing to go through.
I think what I was really surprised by was our first ultrasound that we had.
When you hear that heartbeat for the first time, how good's that?
That's when I got really excited.
And I've been so excited since that day.
But like, obviously we've had a donor and Sils doesn't have a disability.
But when I saw the ultrasound, I'm like, I went, oh.
And the ultrasound technician was like, oh, are you okay?
And I was like, he's got two legs.
And she's like, yes.
And I was like, oh, okay.
I was like, well, if he's missing anything, like, don't be scared to tell me.
Like, don't sugarcoat it.
I'm fine with that.
And she's like, oh, okay.
Everything's fine.
Everything's fine.
You sound disappointed with that.
It's just where your head went.
It's just where my head went.
And it kind of made me realize that, you know,
obviously I've grown up in a whole world around disability.
And now I'm finding able bods a bit weird.
And I was like, I was talking to one of our wheelchair rugby captain Riley bad about this
because I saw him the wake up.
And I was telling him about the ultrasound.
And he's like, yeah, I think I would have found that weird too.
Like, you know, seeing an ultrasound with a perfectly healthy baby from what we know now.
And I'm like, yeah, like, you know.
You're going to be a fantastic mom.
You're going to be great.
And in the new house, it's just an exciting time to look forward to.
We could talk forever, but we need to finish up.
We've got the fast five, which is the five questions that we end our podcast with.
I'm nervous about this.
Don't be nervous.
I'm more nervous about this than lining up for a final at the Paralympic Games.
Think of that Canadian used to annoy.
A favourite quote.
Is there a quote that you've lived your life by or you've heard one and gone, oh, yeah, love it.
I used to love the quote when I was growing up,
that it's better to get a sore neck from aiming too high than a hunchback from aiming too low.
But since I think that's lame now for some reason, I've moved on from that.
I've never heard it before, but I like the thought behind it.
Because I thought about it so much that it lost its meaning.
Where then as I was going through the London experience, I came across this quote.
It was glued on the door of our swimming pool.
That insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
Credited to Albert Einstein, but apparently he never said it.
But I just love that process about you'll drive yourself insane if you're always doing
the same thing and you'll expect things to turn out differently for you.
I think that that can relate to so many different areas of your life.
I feel like when we get stuck in a rut, I think, you know, if you look at that quote.
Realise, okay, if nothing changes in my life, then everything's going to stay the same.
So let's change it up.
Favourite holiday destination.
Well, I don't know how many athletes you've spoken to, but athletes don't really go on holidays.
We had like three days a year off when we're an athlete.
We usually spend that with our family.
I did New York and Miami though, on the back of a swimming trip when I was competing in Canada,
did New York and Miami, loved it.
But then I came home and did a road trip around Tasmania way better.
Tassie is the place to go.
I think it's Australia's best kept secret.
You go to a different place every day.
It's like you're in a different country.
Tassie's never been the answer to that question.
Never been the answer to that question by the way.
Yeah, I bet it hasn't.
That's the first.
Are you a reader?
I used to read a lot when I was a kid and I've just picked it up again, actually.
Do you like reading reading or just listening to the audio book?
So I actually read on my phone.
I get digital books because you can read wherever you are then.
And you can have like 30 different books on your phone at the same time.
I used to read a lot of Jodie Pickold when I was younger and I like her books because
she always has a different every chapter is someone's different perspective on a
common issue and I really love that.
How do you spell that surname?
She's the one that wrote My Sister's Keeper.
My wife's got that by her bed right now.
Yeah, all of her books are brilliant.
My favourite movie would have to be My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
When the games got postponed by Kate and Bronte were devastated and so I went over
to Kate's house and we put that movie on to cheer us up and drank half a bottle of Scotch.
Sounds like a good night.
It was a great night.
I realised in that moment that I could almost quote that whole movie.
You love it so much.
And favourite charity because we're very supported here by Shoren Partners.
They're a financial services company and Earl and Al who are just legends, so generous.
They give $10,000 to all our guests that you can give to any charity of your choice.
Thank you to Shoren Partners for that.
They really are amazing.
We're the only podcast on the planet that does this so we're very proud of that.
So who would you like to give the 10 grand to and what do you think
that charity will do with the 10 grand?
So I have a question.
Can I split the chance?
In fact, last year, Lane Beechley did 3,333 times three over three charities
because she couldn't make up her mind.
So whatever you like, you can do 10 at $1,000 if you want.
Well, it's in the same industry.
So I would like to give $5,000 to Camp Quality because I have been working with them over
the last 12 months and their work is incredible.
Their services are all about supporting the families, as I mentioned before,
is so important and to make their childhoods fun and memorable and so that the whole childhood
isn't just overshadowed by a cancer diagnosis.
On the other hand, I would also like to give $5,000 to Challenge Kids with Cancer because
they're actually the charity that supported my family when I was going through my diagnosis.
And I used to love being a kid, like sure, I'd lost my leg as a cancer survivor,
but there was nothing more exciting than waiting by the post box
and getting this envelope every month that would have all of these fun
activities that my siblings could go on, like horse riding days or overnight stays.
They had amazing Christmas parties and they genuinely made my childhood so great.
And my siblings were like, thank God that, you know, this has happened because we have
the best childhood ever now.
And so I'm very, very grateful to Challenge and the support that they offered my family
when I was going through my diagnosis and for a decade after
and Camp Quality as well for the work that they do.
We'll make sure $5,000 goes to both of those charities and they sound like they.
Well, I know Camp Quality.
I didn't know the other one, but that sounds like the smile on your face when you're talking
That $5,000 is going to make another kid and their family happy.
Yeah, they're amazing charities.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Hope you enjoyed the chat.
I had a great time.
Good on you, mate.
A big thank you again to Shaw and Partners Financial Services.
That $10,000 is going to be split between Camp Quality and Challenge Kids with Cancer.
Of course, next week, another wonderful guest.
If you want to watch the podcast as well, we've got our YouTube channel.
All the details are in the show notes.
See you next week.