Hi, I'm Gus Wallin and this is not an overnight success brought to you by sure and partners financial services
This is a podcast where we sit down with some very successful people from the world of business
Entertainment and sport and chat about their life's journey and what got them to the position that they're in today
We're into season 2 already. How great is that last season? We sat down with 10 incredible Australians and because of that
$100,000 was given to charities all thanks to sure and partners
We're gearing up for a second season full of heavy hitters and truly inspirational people
And so we wanted to kick it off with Debra Lee finesse
To me Deb is the wife of my best mate to the world
She's an amazing actress and wife to one of Hollywood's superstars Hugh Jackman, but life wasn't always glitz and glamour for Deb
Deb grew up with just a mum as the kid who marched to the beat of her own drum
She took risks and moved to New York to pursue her dreams of becoming an actress going from audition to audition and eventually
Found her way up the chain
She ended up starring in an Australian TV show that would change the path of her life
Because it was when she co-starred alongside the man that would later become her husband of 26 years as of a few weeks ago
We also speak about Deb's family and why she is so passionate about children finding their forever homes through adoption
She has energy and a zest for life. That's unrivaled and I think it's a big part of why Hugh is the man that he is today
As for all these podcasts sure and partners have generously donated
$10,000 to the charity of choice for each of our guests
We discuss who gets that money in this chat
The executive producer of this podcast is Keisha Pettit with production assistance from Kelly Stubbs and Brittany Hughes
Let's get into the first episode of season two of not an overnight success
G'day Deb, how are you?
How you going great we're over here the sun's shining it's bloody cold, but I like the cold weather
Snow we did grow up in Australia, but all the romantic movies there was always snow. So I kind of like it
I like it too in New York. What a city and you've been there for a quite a while now you call it home
What is it about New York and America that that suits you and Huey so much?
The first time I came here when I was a young girl
I remember traveling around and I rang home to my mother went. Oh my gosh, mom
I said I finally found my city. I felt home the minute I arrived here
I think because the energy of this city
I'm a little bit of the ADD and I think everyone that comes to New York with everyone that's here
You don't come to New York if you want to sit back and chill
Everyone that comes here has an agenda has a mission wants to wants to be involved wants to be a part of the community
I love it. Jerry Seinfeld said why is it we've got all this wide open land and yet
Everyone wants to come and live in this city where we're like bumping into each other on the subway
So there must be something about the people that live here that we like being in community and it's exciting
It's got she's got a great personality. I think New York is if she was a dinner date, you'd just want to keep going
And I do remember before we go into sort of your success as an actress
I do want to just say something about New York because Jaco mentioned to me
Years ago that that first time that you walked into Times Square and there was like a hundred meter or a hundred foot
Sort of poster of you a billboard. What was that about? And what did that? How did that make you feel?
Okay, so I came to I was driving into New York because I just I'd done press all over America
For the film shame that I had made and as I'm coming back into New York, obviously
This was my my old stomping ground. This was my school. I was going to see my mates
So i'm driving through Times Square and they know they didn't say anything to me
And as i'm driving through Times Square, i'm like, oh so good to be back and I look up and this huge billboard
And it's me in leathers looking like this tough chick standing in Times Square and I was like wow
And I rang I rang mum and I said mum, it's amazing. There's a big billboard here
She'd take a picture and I said I haven't got a camera. She said buy one
Your mum will talk about her a lot in the in the podcast as well, but Deb, what were you like as a as a kid?
What was I called highly spirited?
My first report or one of my report cards was deborah lee has great leadership qualities
If only she would lead the children in the right direction
And I have to say recently I spoke to one of ava's teacher and got my daughter got the same report
And i'm speaking on the phone and I said, oh, i'm so sorry. I'll make sure and i'll be secretly i'm going
Yeah, I I think as a kid I was very curious, you know
So I was you know always getting into trouble
I guess because I wanted to see everything try everything and I was very chatty
So I was sort of always in trouble at school for being the talkative one in class
So and I remember okay one funny story was you know, because I'd get bored
I think in that was economics or something. We had a new teacher come in
And so he came into the class and introduced himself and we all had to go around and of course came to me
And I stood up and I had an american accent. Hi, i'm deborah lee and i'm from
Vegas or wherever I was from and the whole class laughed of course because I was just you know
I love to make people laugh and the teacher goes do not laugh at deborah lee just because she has a different accent and blah
Anyway, he kept saying to the in the teacher's conference room. I'll tell you that american girl
She's hard to control and they're all going who what what american girl? What is he talking about?
No, I guess, you know, I kept myself entertained when I was bored in economics class good on you
So you grew up in australia in victoria. Yep, and your mum I know in particular is just a huge part of your life
But what was your family makeup as you were as you were growing up?
Well, because I always felt different because I know all the kids used to have a brown paper bag with the vegemite sandwiches
I really wanted that and I always got play lunch money because mum was a single mom
I was an only child so she was you know working so she was busy
So she'd always give me play lunch money and I suppose I felt different because
You know, I didn't have the classic family like, you know three kids and the two parents. It was mum and me
One thing I did that was a positive that came out of that was australia at the time
You know was quite misogynistic and quite chauvinistic
And here I was the child of a woman who was a leader in the workforce
She was a strong powerful woman and contrary to what everyone else thought I thought the chicks were in the show
So I sort of grew up with that attitude and then it was only as I got older i'm like
Oh, these guys think they're in charge
So it sort of gave me a strength and she empowered me as a woman
Let's talk about your mum because you know, I've met her, you know
100 times every time you're leaving feeling like you've been with a
A very very positive energy and like a real angel. What was she like as a mum to you? Oh god
Don't make me cry
She was unbelievable. You know, I was the apple of her eye. I could do no wrong
I mean she celebrated every win whether it was getting my swimming certificate or was you know singing badly in that musical at school
You know, oh you were the best ev, you know
It was always she was so supportive even when I said to her because it was always assumed that I was going to do law
And that was I was going to do and then I said mum
I think I want to be an actor only because the kids at school because I made them laugh
Said you should be an actor and i'm like they pay you for doing that for making people
Like this sounds like a good gig and and I said to mum
I think i'll be actress because if that's what you want to do
She gave me that freedom like if I wanted to pursue that and she supported me
I you know saved up and she helped me come over to new york where I came to study drama
But she was so kind and everyone as you know, everyone called her mama. She had that energy of she was just
Anyone that came to our house
Felt warmth and love she was like a big hug, you know
She was so respected in the workforce because she made sure everyone got a fair go and
She was an extraordinary woman and I don't think it's now she's been gone five years and I still miss her terribly
But I don't think I credit her enough with how smart and why she was because you know as a kid
You're like, yeah. Yeah sure mum and you know, like they never know anything and you know everything
And I realize now she was so wise and all the things she said to me now
Really sinking in i'm trying to pass on to my kids. I love the fact that she just said
Okay, if you wanted to be an actor go and be an actor and back to you to do it
Was it a tough choice for you to go away from sort of law or sort of a inadvertent commas a
A proper job and and go across the other side of the world to be an actor. Like what was that like for you?
At the time i'm like consider one of the early settlers because at the time, you know, I said to my friends
They're like why are you going over to new york? And i'm like, why aren't you? It's so
And I think back now, I mean most people would be scared to do it or they thought it was a big deal
Excited I thought this was the most amazing thing in the world I could do so no I wasn't
Fearful of it. I think it was like the naive thing of youth. I'm just like wow
I remember landing here and sort of going this huge city and it was very overwhelming and I
Was a little overwhelmed and scared when I got here
It didn't take me long before I got my stride and became a sassy new yorker
And what was the sort of the college work or the actual work that you were doing?
What was that like? Did you have were you out of your comfort zone? Did you feel comfy?
No, completely. Well, I came over and I auditioned and got and got into the into the school
I wanted to go to so I went back and then
Worked three jobs as a door bitch at the nightclubs in melbourne's nightclub scene
But I was a terrible door bitch because I just let everyone in
But so and then I came back and it was intense like it was like you're in a bubble of like it was all these people
But they'd come from all over the world
And from all over america
This was the dream to come to new york and study drama at the american academy of dramatic arts
So it was a big deal
Every you worked really hard
So I was I think it was the first time ever I got all a's and I was committed because it was something I wanted to do
You know maths and all that stuff just didn't turn me on so I was very conscientious
And I worked my butt off and I was completely out of my comfort zone much to most people's horror
I don't think they quite realize this i'm actually kind of shy. There's a part of me that's shy. I'm an extroverted
Loud mouth shy girl. I don't know if that's
But but in certain ways, you know like so to sort of put myself on the line any artist
Who is a painter or a musician or an actor?
It takes a lot of courage to say I can do this
And you don't know until you put yourself out there and every role that you step out to do is that
Can you do it? You don't know so it takes a lot of courage
So it took a lot of strength a lot of courage and a lot of hard work to really say call myself
Yeah, I can say i'm an actor. Are you good at auditioning?
Are you good at sort of remembering lines and all that sort of stuff?
It horrifies me to now if you ask me
I barely remember with the shopping list when I go to the groceries
I used to almost have a photographic memory. I could look at a sheet and boom I had it
I did a show I did film something recently a pandemic comedy on zoom
What was great on zoom? I could have my lines on the screen. So I got a little backup
But no, I used to be but I I liked auditions because I I think it was there was something
It's like jumping out of a plane. I like the excitement of
Diving in and just going for it
You said you're one of the first settlers and you're right now now
Obviously, there's a lot of famous Aussies in all parts of the world
but how long was it before a few of your mates decided to
To come and and and some of those Aussies that you enjoyed time with in new york. Can you tell us about them?
Well, I didn't actually have them in new york in new york was a whole other world
I mean literally when I was here americans would say to me deb you really picked up the the language really quickly
They did not know about australia i'm serious. I mean it sounds like i'm from the dark ages, but it was literally
Australia I was this exotic foreign being and the other early settler was anthony lapalia. Do you know anthony? Yeah, absolutely
Yeah, he and I were sort of one of the first two to be here and I didn't run into Australians for a long time
It wasn't till later
I studied here and then went back to australia and worked there for many years and then went back to la to hollywood
So it wasn't till then we had the whole gum leaf mafia thing happening in la with nicole came to stay and you know
It was tom berylinson
There was a whole lot of us sort of like it's like vegas you throw your hat in the ring and see what what hits
And that it just sounds so exciting as you talk about that
Was it exciting and as much fun as it sounds or was there a lot of sort of hard work and good days and bad days?
Getting roles not getting roles. What was that like for you?
Well as any actor and i'm talking about the most successful actors for an actor you get rejection
I mean, naomi watts is a good friend of mine. I remember, you know
10 years she couldn't get arrested
It's persistence. You just just got to hang in there and like I would in la
I would like I had a big jeep and i'd like go out for the day
I'd have a nun's habit. I was a hooker a nun a mum a this
I had to change your clothes in the back of the car
And I just drive around going from audition to audition
And it's rejection after rejection. So you've got to be made of some sturdy stuff and you can't take it personally
It's like, you know
Either you remind the director of what he thinks is a good idea or you don't or you you gave a bad audition that day
You got to really thank god like you gust we have a strong sense of humor and don't take ourselves too seriously
Yeah, I just know from my brother's point of views from screenplays, you know
Just doing your best and then having someone reject it. It's hard not to take that personally
I know because it's your baby. As I said, it's courage as an artist
There's a great book for any artist that's listening the war of art not the art of war the war
Which is a war thing which I don't like well the war of art and it talks about
What it is to be an artist and how you have to lay yourself out there
And one line he said in the book, which I thought was amazing
He said it was easier for hitler to start the second world war than to stare at a blank canvas
Meaning, you know that was who he thought he was this artist and it was like the courage it took to do that
And I just thought that was an amazing
analogy of this man
Let's talk about you come back to australia in one particular
ABC tv show changes your life
And changes someone very dear to my life as well. Just tell us about that moment when you first met here
Well, because I went back to I was going between hollywood and australia a lot
So I was like I was lucky I had another playground to play in so I was working in hollywood
And I was also working in australia. So I was back and forward
And I remember I came yeah
I think i've had it with hollywood and I saw a psychic and she said you have to go back to australia
Just don't question me. You have to go back. I mean, this is a psychic but I was also I was
In I was ready to make a shift
So I and I came back and it literally everything that this like said
Came true like the work was in abundance and I kept working and then I got this show corelli and they told me this guy
Jack human was going to be my co-star. I've never heard of him and I could never remember his name
And then and I I didn't know obviously because this was his first gig out of drama school
So I just met him as my co-star the first day
And I thought oh he seems nice and and yeah, well the rest is history as you know, but we had an incredible connection
From the get-go as like we just recognized each other and I feel blessed
you know that you meet someone in your life that feels like
You're meant to share your life together and that's what it was
But we were you know, it took us a while to get there romantically
Because I was being very professional, but it was obviously there was such you know, there was such a connection though and like
To play with him as an actor was like the best tennis match
You know, we just spoke the same language and it was you know
It was magic and then I remember three months after when the show was on air
Hugh and I were together at that stage. He went to the supermarket and the checkout chick said
I knew it was too good to be
Of course I was over in England and he was phoning me saying this is this lady, you know
There's this girl and i'm like don't fall in love with another lead actress because he had done it pretty much since
Fourth form and fifth form at school and I could name that
And he's like no no, she's like she said she's like you in a dress she's like sagittarian
She just she's really funny and she's and i'm like, well, she sounds great to me, but just be careful
You know and that's a bloke who you know known him all his life, but I was living in England
He was obviously starting off in Australia and doing his best
But it was pretty obviously early on that he felt something for you
But he didn't quite know how to you know, make that next move. Did you feel that?
Intensity, did you feel that nervousness from him? Yeah, but initially I was like, oh my goodness
This is just cliche, you know falling for your leading man and he's this younger guy
And he's like he's about to start his huge career and I tried to back off and so he was not tentative
He could see that I was a bit scared and he was like you're not going anywhere
So he took the reins was like no, this is the way it's going to be. I love it
And then he proposed it was four months after we started dating he proposed
And it was like a no brainer. I mean it was just the first time ever
I'd known what it was like to be in love. Oh, it's so beautiful and still are
Well, that's the great that's the great thing about and I suppose
I want to I wanted to talk a little bit now about you know, the fact that people do say
You know the the age gap and all that sort of stuff like i've never known you guys even to have a
Argument certainly not in front of me and arguments have nothing to do with age
Believe me, I know
And he is just let's be clear here. He is the mature one in the relationship as you know
I do know that for sure. How do you cope with crap in the paper?
I must have sat at coles
10 times and read the front cover of new idea or something like that saying that you guys are
You know in trouble and all that sort of on the rocks. Yeah, like it's just how do you cope with that?
I'm a big Pollyanna and i'm like
I'm like, how could people just make this up? It just amazes me that these magazines
Continue to get away with it. And what they're selling is schadenfreude
They are selling misery people must be wanting to buy that other people are miserable or terrible because it makes them feel better about themselves
But that's what these magazines are selling. You rarely see a nice story about happy
You know everyone's happy and blah blah blah
And I heard recently and I won't say names of a big star, you know, very big, you know self-assured star
He was getting a lot of flak said about him and it was really hurtful
I don't think as a human being if you read something and especially if it's a lie
And it's it's slander that it doesn't affect you and hurt you. I'm like, how can these people say this?
When you're a celebrity, you're so open slather to
People wanting to say negative things. I mean hugh's been gay for whatever. I mean, hello guys
If he was gay, he could be gay. He didn't have to hide in the closet anymore
Yeah, and he'd be nate and brad pitt or whatever
Yeah, what the brads say, but you know, you know what i'm saying. Yes. No, but i'm saying it's so silly and then people
Perpetuate silly things and it's it's boring hugh and I don't to be honest
It's only when we sort of it comes across us, but we don't read a lot of that stuff
We're unaware. I mean we'll be out and I go what are those people looking at? I'm like, oh yeah, you're famous
You know, it's like it's just not our world
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Sure and partners financial services your partners in building and preserving wealth and let's get back into the episode
Well, of course because you're both so normal as well
You know, that's what I love about you is that you do live this wonderful life. I don't know about normal
Is anyone normal you got a normal
Think about it the new normal inadvertent commerce, I suppose but you know what I mean in the beginning when people say stuff i'm like, oh
That's outrageous. You want to fight back? But now I just whatever people know. It's just you know ridiculous
Let's talk about your two beautiful kids because one of them is my godson and and there's ava as well
Who came around a couple of years later?
What's that like being a mum that role that you have in your life?
I always knew I was going to be a mum. Well, I had the best role model
I love it. I love what it teaches me. But I mean, it's literally a challenge daily
It's a challenge daily like you've got to really have your senses about you to deal with their insecurities with their fears
And like all of us we all have our fears and doubts and whatever and when you're younger
You haven't got the knowing of being a bit older and wiser that it's not everything's dramatic
So, you know everything's cataclysmic. This is the end of the world
So you really have to be smart in the way you support them without being too in their face
I used to suffer a bit of the helicopter mom. I was like, you know, like when they were little
I see a homeless person on the street and deborah lee pollyanna living in disneyland. I go he's really tired
He's just having a nap and then they would say to me ma it's a homeless person
So I tried to buffet them from all that you can't you have to just be open and they teach me so much in these kids
What is amazing now?
I see with both of my kids they are so
Aware of the world and like I can't have a drink with it's got a plastic thing around it
They will go crazy at me like they're so conscious about the planet
Which is obviously they should be and maybe they should have a chat to scomo so that he could maybe come on board a bit
More i'm not getting political
But let's just say, you know climate change is a big issue. They are so conscious of it and so
Wanting to step up, you know
Outspoken about social justice. I'm really proud of them in that way
I don't think I don't think I would have been aware at that age. I was just sort of like going dancing
I'm learning stuff from oscar all the time like every time I look at him on
Social media then i'll send him a little note and i'll ask him to explain stuff because I just don't get it
I I don't live in that world
No, but he's length that he's the extent of his knowledge is he's quite remarkable. He's got very high iq and he's a talented artist
He's really working out his art these days
And the injustice he sees in in the world and he's opening my eyes up to it
Like I think the godfather is meant to be the spiritual leader for the godson
But I think it might be the other way around with uh with him
He really is very in touch with all those height of emotions. He's a very interesting guy
Yeah, I can say an interesting guy now. He's a grown-up 21. I know he's beautiful
I want to go down a couple of avenues with you one obviously around adoption and then the other one
You know being a wife of Hugh Jackman who obviously is this huge big star
How easy was it for you deb to go? You know what?
He's going to go this direction. I'm going to do something slightly different as well as obviously acting
What was it like for you to see his?
You know just huge rise in terms of success and and being an a-lister. I saw that before we got married
Just so you know, yeah, I know that I knew that that was the trajectory and I told Hugh
That was the trajectory it was like the beginnings of it was so exciting because we're sort of on together like oh my gosh
Wow, and wolverine happened and it was all exciting. It's big. It's a lot because all of a sudden
I don't think it's comfortable for anyone to have the world looking at you
You know like the all of a sudden you get to a certain level of fame and the world is interested in you
The world wants to know every detail about you. I don't think I will ever get comfortable with that
I think is blissfully
Unaware not unaware of it, but he he doesn't take it on he doesn't like, you know
He just he's doing the work takes it in his stride
But yeah, I don't know. It's like it's that's been our experience. We've sort of grown up together with it
So it's been like a slow to rise thing
So we've gotten more and more used to it and more comfortable with it
And I think talking to jacko having you as sort of his main person in his life
it's helped him so much keep himself grounded and keep himself focused because
When people talk about jacko and say what's he like I go well
Just what you imagine
That's exactly what he's like and then they meet him eventually and they go
He's even better than I thought, you know
And that that that comes naturally to him because he's always been loved but he's gone through a huge change
But he's had you there to ground him and to sort of help him and support him
Person out there and especially in the arts when you're so vulnerable and put yourself on the line to have a partner
That can share it with you and especially a partner like I you know, I made movies for 20 years. So I know
What it's like so I have an understanding
You know, we both keep ourselves, you know, we're very open in our relationship. We share all our vulnerabilities and all that stuff
So having someone there is just a gift
I must admit deb when I suppose about five or ten years into you guys
I'm just like he doesn't need me as a best friend anymore because he's actually
It was my insecurity because he's got his best friend and his partner and I say to people in the chats for gotcha for life
If you've got someone in your life that is your partner your lover as well as the person you can talk to about everything
Then you've won the jackpot because even if you love and adore your partner
There are some things that you may just want to talk to a mate about or a professional about
But he's got that in you and I got a little jet
He also has a special relation like I love that you guys like you check in every week and you have your blokey
Conference there's stuff that you guys talk about that's different, you know, I like with my girlfriends
We all there's so much there's room for all of us
Like I will talk to girlfriends about stuff that I wouldn't necessarily talk to you about just because he'd get bored
I think the rug should go over here
No, but I love that we have different you know, i'm a mother i'm a wife i'm a best friend
They're the fabric that's relationships. I love that. Yeah, it's the village, you know, we're building a village around us and we need all these
Correct. What's it like when you're doing a love scene in a movie and jacko's watching and vice versa?
How do you because that's the one question everyone asks me is like how do they cope when they're kissy kissy with their co-star?
It's so weird. I suppose because i've done it so many times before it's not really romantic. I mean you've got
The gaffer overhead within a you know, and you've got the light in your face and you've got to hit a mic and so
It's not really sexy when i'm sitting in the theater watching
Especially if i'm with the kids, I feel a little uncomfortable
But also a lot of the times i'm very good friends with the
Actress that he's making out with you know, because we're making a film where we get all get to know each other
But yeah, sometimes it's weird. Sometimes it's weird seeing and I think the kids that are like, oh oscar's like
Does when I watch
But it's become second nature. I suppose and you realize it's just a a job and you crack on with it
Yeah, and when you secure a relationship, that's just all fluff. You know, it's just all fluff
Who are your best mates in terms of of hollywood or people that people would know from you know,
Listening to us now who are the people that you know that you're just like, oh I love hanging out with them because when jacko goes
Oh deb and I are having jerry over or something. I know that's jerry sinfil that to me is still ridiculous
You know what I mean? You're hilarious or your good friend john travolta. Yeah, or jt. I like it
Good mates call him jt. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. Well, you know, I know all the aussies all the aussies and okay
Well tonight we've got hugh's uh,
Ex-wife in the last movie he made laura duren's coming out for dinner
And bradley cooper because well he lives around the corner. So I mean they're actors and they're in our scene. So
We're in new york. So, you know, I love it. That's what I love about new york like
When you're in in la, I think we're all in the industry in new york like our other best friends and oncologists, you know
And or a mime artist, you know, it's or a builder, you know, there's
Such diversity here. So we're not we don't just hang out, you know with celebrities we artists
Oncologists neurosurgeons. That's new york
Always interesting times at your dinner table. I love it's always fantastic
You can sit next to anyone and you know, you're going to have fun. That's what I love about new york. Exactly
You never know what's gonna I start my day new york. I never know what's gonna happen like
I just have it like tonight will happen
I've got all the kids here and I love that they get to meet interesting people
Like I had a neurosurgeon here last week who was talking about these amazing things and that's what's great about
Being in the epicenter of people that are doing things in the world. Where do you see your next sort of 20 years deb?
Will you be acting again if the right role comes up? What do you see as your future?
I don't think i'll be able to remember the lines
I have to say the acting
Isn't my driving passion like I did it a few weeks ago
A friend wrote a that series for me and I did it and it was fun at the moment. I'm writing a screenplay
With rebecca rig another australian and we're writing a screenplay about intergenerational trauma and i'm literally
Doing this because the subject really fascinates me and I think trauma is the zeitgeist at the moment
I think we've all experienced trauma and I don't think all of us are as aware
It doesn't have to be capital t trauma like you're in a war zone of syria
It could be you were the kid in school that never got asked to you know
When you put your hand up and it shut you down for the rest of the year
I mean, there's all different levels. So i'm fascinated how that impacts us mentally physically and emotionally
And I remember someone said if you're going to make a film don't make about something
You know make it something about what you want to learn about so i'm going to interview a lot of
Neurosurgeons and trauma people and and it's fascinating and it's a lot of people think it's sort of still woo-woo
But there's science to it. There is really science to what we
Emotionally from our forebears like our grandfather. Maybe I don't like papers because my great-grandfather choked on a caper
You know like it could be it could be something like that
So anyway, so i'm writing the screenplay because I really my i've just finished one bucket list thing I
Designed and built a house from scratch out in this month's architectural digest
Which I love the process. I think design and art is my true passion
So i'm designing something at the moment. I'm doing a whole line of dinnerware, which i'm designing
I'm writing the screenplay i'm painting and obviously i've got my two foundations adopt change in australia
And hope land here in new york. So there's i'm, you know very much involved with everything going on there
I feel very fulfilled, you know in what i'm doing
So big yeah, but to get this up my other bucket list to build the house from scratch, but to direct a
feature-length film
Dream, so that's what i'm in the process of trying to trying to achieve right now
I just don't know how you have all the energy to do it to be honest with you. That's a lot a lot of energy
Let's talk about adoption because that's a huge part. I think you should have been australian in the year. You nearly were
You were new south wales australian of the year, but new south wales go new south wales, but you actually
You actually changed the law in this country. Like you changed the way that things are done
Could you give us an understanding of your passion behind?
Adoption and why you were so passionate and why you did what you did
I did what I did because when hugh and I started out we wanted to adopt and we we started out in australia
I couldn't believe how
The service just was not giving us answers and then we had to wait months to go to a meeting
Then we went to this meeting and it was so negative and I saw all these hopeful parents there
Wanting to you know parent a child and the hoops you had to jump through were ridiculous
I mean body mass index and this and your past sex life
This is how crazy it was and I just went this is nuts
And I mean I didn't even pursue it in australia because it was so
I could just see it was going to be years of bureaucracy and it just was not made easy
As it happened we moved overseas and I ended up adopting my children overseas
But because of that when i'd come back to australia so many people that wanted would say why can't we do it here?
And I went yeah, why is that? I had traveled the world
I had seen how many children would benefit from a loving family
I can see all these people here wanting to parent a kid kids needing parents
But no, they're stuck in orphanages where children do not thrive or in foster care and we can't bring it together
And then I uncovered that there was an anti-adoption culture in australia
Which brahman bishop did in 2005 and that was within the system as well
People say why is that and it was because of past practices women 50 60 70s were forced to relinquish kids
Their babies because it was out of wedlock and there was a lot of shame put on these women
They were not given support. It was handled appallingly also. It gets confused with the stolen generation
That was theft nothing to do with adoption
You know rollercoastered into this negativity and
System that was broken and didn't work and plus I think that part of the service was a very small
Part that was under resource under service
So there was no passion to put into making this want to happen
And so it started out speaking like that because I just saw it as an injustice and the ones that were
Not getting the fair deal with the kids
They were the ones that stuck in foster care and the trajectory of kids are these kids that go from placement to placement
These transitions are traumatic every single time the trajectory is drugs. We know the scenario drugs
alcohol sexual abuse violence domestic end up in jails, it's terrible
So I hate injustice which takes me back to why I wanted to be a lawyer
But didn't quite put that but I suppose i'm putting those skills into practice now with the injustice of a system that is broken
We started i've got to tell you guys I was out for 10 years with so little traction
So little traction i'd meet prime minister after prime minister
They couldn't shift it even if I got them on board. They couldn't move this behemoth cut to we're 13 years in
We just had a huge summit
We have the best speakers from all over the world come in and speak and they give us solutions that we take
To parliament now we now have friends of adoption in parliament parliamentary friends of adoption whereas we had no friends for years
Didn't want to know about us
so now we take all the recommendations that we do the research for at these big conferences take it to the policymakers and
Help to advise them how to change policy kids are getting out of foster care sooner
And the biggest thing that we've made is that people realize permanency is everything transitions for a child orphanages
I mean people think oh yeah, they're needed children don't thrive mentally physically emotionally
I've seen a kid in an orphanage in cambodia
Literally, I thought was a six-year-old was a 15 year old. He physically didn't grow
The damage that is done the trauma that has caused these children and they end up in jail and guess what?
They're re-traumatized we're punishing these kids for their trauma and that's why the trauma interests me
This is a big thing
We need to look at why people behave badly and it's usually because of trauma like our big recommendation this year
Is that all teachers ed that that includes training our teachers who are with our children all day
To if a child is being naughty don't punish it
Why is that child being naughty to have the education to recognize trauma and this doesn't just mean adopted kids
It's kids that may be experiencing domestic violence at home sexual abuse
Whatever so that these teachers can flag it and not punish them and cause worse behavior
We need to know all of us are traumatized every single one of us. We've all had something in our lives
So let's be compassionate. Let's understand it
So these are things that you know, we've brought up and we've brought to the forefront and we're hoping to change and
I hope you know one day there's no need for adoption. I mean everyone says i'm pro adoption
I'm not i'm pro a child being in a permanent loving family if they can stay within their birth family
That's the best solution
So we have to support the birth family so that they've got the tools because a lot of these families that can't handle it
Are families that they themselves have grown up maybe with drug addict parents or
Intergenerational trauma it just repeats generation after generation and we need to stop that
So do you think we're getting there? Do you think there's a there's a positive spin?
Do you feel now sort of bullied that you can get there?
To change it on the globe, you know, and our numbers are terrible
I got to say Australia's one of the lowest in our numbers for adoption and placing children
There's 46 000 kids at the moment in out-of-home care in Australia
It's a big fight and we need everyone to come on board and everyone the more everyone understands the issue
What the solutions are the more with anything and changing something it takes a long time
We've been out of 13 years, you know
We just got to keep fighting the good fight and get there
My dad says to me when we took on the mental fitness stuff
He goes it's like turning around the qe2. He said it's going to take
Generations. Do you said do you know how long it takes to turn around the qe2? And I said
No, obviously, I don't he goes what's eight nautical miles, which he said basically takes nearly a day
So he said that's what you're taking on. I said well, that's what we're taking on because that's i'm in for the fight
How do you keep going deb because i've been going five years with gotcha for life and mental fitness and and suicide prevention
How do you keep the energy and how do you balance being?
A wife a mother and someone who's actually on the forefront of a very very big subject and also
Keep your own sanity and your own life going. How do you balance that up?
I wasn't at one stage
I and it but you you have to have the number one and you've got it
You've got to have the passion to want to shift it. That's the only thing that's going to make it sustainable if you haven't got that
Knee-jerk empathic response to the issue. You're not going to be able to keep it going
So I have that I I feel strongly I can't bear to think of a child being alone or being vulnerable
So that's there but i've lost my mojo many times
So i'm like, oh i'm getting nowhere and every time that'll go like i'm just can't take it anymore
Some opportunity will present itself. So I feel like there is a bigger picture
Someone's using me and putting something like I go
Okay, here's an opportunity and I get back into the game and I get excited and do that. So that
Is a bigger picture driving me
And also and you have to be smart and I was not juggling well at one stage and I was trying to do it all and we
Were traveling and like I was doing board calls because of the time difference in Australia like two in the morning
And I had I thought I can't do this. So now i'm very smart. I have conferences. I've changed how it works
I speak to our ceo. We have our big meetings and what and I can
Do that. I've changed the terms on how I operate and give what I do best
I'm not good at the minutia of details. I don't think that's your area of governance and you know
Talking details with politicians. I'm big picture girl. I've been smart and I've said i'm not doing that. I'm doing this
This is the best way to get out of me what i've got to give
So I found a really good balance for that part of my life so that I can be the artist
I can be the mom I can be the wife I can do all that
It's a juggling act and it's not just me. It's every every woman a man out there
We're trying to juggle our family and our professional lives and our social life. It's a lot
When I talk to guys and girls now people are just saying I don't know how I can play every role as well as
I want to that's the problem. I do really good at work
Then i'm suffering at home if i'm put more time in at home then work opportunity misses me
It's hard to get the balance right, but you've got to not be hard on yourself either when you fail at one
Because we beat ourselves up you've got to go. Oh, this is not just be pragmatic about it
Oh, this is not working. I need to pull back here go there. It's a juggling at you
It's lit. You know people ask me fill out the form. What do you do for a living? I'm a juggler
Okay, deb we're coming up to near the end
But you know could talk to you forever and cannot wait to be in new york with you guys next year
Just one more thing before I finish with the with the fast five questions, which is our little fun way of ending
Deb it always amazes me that jacko always
Calls you out if you're in the crowd at whatever event that you're out and it's
Obvious to everyone how much he loves and adores you the girls go
Ah and the blokes go. Oh god, mate. Come on, please. Could you be any better?
Is that still awesome for you to have that call out when you're in the crowd watching him do something live?
Well, you talk about ground it grounds him too like he needs like that's a grounding thing
And yeah, it just I love I know when he does that that he's feeling safe. He's feeling good
I'll never forget when he did the oscars. I mean that was a huge deal
It's like the world is watching you've got the whole of hollywood there
I think I was more nervous in here
I was like, you know heart palpitations and when he came out the first and he did his normal thing to me. I thought
Oh my god, he's okay. It's like and in this massive, you know, everyone's looking we have an intimate moment
It's really special. That was so great and your mom's been at few of those intimate moments do like
Mom came for all the rides. She was there for the whole ride and jacko as you know
Jacko and mum were the best of friends. They would make each other laugh like nobody's business
No, I love that relationship. You know, that was a very very strong relationship
For him and very close to sort of my mom's relationship with him
Which was just so lovely to see and that total love and trust between them
Let's finish with the with the fast five fast five. I love a game. Okay, here we go
Your favorite holiday destination deb parakeet in the turks and cacos. Oh, it's the caribbean right
The most beautiful blue water you've ever seen. Oh nice and white sand. It's gorgeous
Have you got a quote a favorite quote that you love or that you live by god?
I'm a quote girl. I am so full of quotes
And of course you put me on the spot and I can't remember one. I just posted one. Hang on
Oh, I like this by winston and the headline is failure
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm
Yeah, I like that. We could all do with the dates of winston. We love winston. What's your favorite movie?
Well going back it has to be the way we were barbara streisand and robert redford. I think I watched it like 25 times
What's your favorite movie that you've done and what's your favorite movie that jacko's done?
Shame would be that my favorite movie where I paid the murder and I my daughter saw it recently
So it's good. She gets to see him. I'm being a badass
I'm riding a motorbike and I think hugh's greatest performance would be lay me that out
Yeah, he was unlucky not to win an oscar on that one stolen
Stolen from I thought he he was magnificent in that I think it's
One of his best performances and there's been a lot of good ones. Yeah
Prisoners the other day. I rewatched that again. I didn't realize how
Brutal that is and how good he is in that urskingville kings is one that I loved it
I think he was that was his first film and I think he was brilliant in that and people don't realize it's so far from him
Too, you know, yeah, it couldn't be more different
When you watch jacko's movies, I know that you'd normally get to see them first and you and irving
Who's a great friend of both of you, you know, you were in new york for a long time together
You'd go to things you'd come back and you'd give an honest appraisal of of performances and movie and stuff
How important is that for you to keep that?
Honesty with him as an actor rather than be the you know, the supportive wife necessarily
I know totally, you know, we're always completely honest with each other. But you know what he's
It's rare that i've seen him make a bad move
I said when he did the front runner playing gary harp the center. He was brilliant
I know when I can relax and enjoy the movie
That he's doing his job because i'm not watching hugh do it. I'm like, oh cool. Oh this dude. What's he doing? Oh, you know, so
No, yeah, no work completely. No, we'll tell each other for sure. Yeah, I love that
Favorite book and are you a reader? I'm not I think i'm not a reader because I have this thing
I think about a learning disability. I read two pages and I just fall asleep
I can't read so thank god for audibles. Now. I love my audibles. I have to say most recent favorite book
Was the oprah winfrey bruce perry collaboration what happened to you? I recommend again
It's about trauma because that's what i'm interested in now. I recommend that everyone read this book
I think I think it was just amazing and so insightful beautiful. I don't read a lot of fiction
I'm always wanting to gain knowledge and
Yeah, so how do you how do you relax?
I did that in the 80s. I think I relaxed
Really do a lot of it
He and I do love our sunday nights or when we get a chance to sit down and eat dark chocolate
Have a cup of tea and watch netflix. Yeah, i'm really into succession at the moment and the morning show
Well succession I got too late because you guys told me years ago to watch and it somehow escaped me
So good and there's an australian actress in there. I didn't even know she was australian. I'm like, who is this chick?
Sarah snooks. Yes, sieve. Shev. Yeah, sarah snooks. She's
This girl it's just amazing and so sexy. Yeah
She's amazing and she's married to a dope. I don't understand that relationship at all. No one does it but
It's so bizarre. Isn't it? That's what I love about these characters. Who are you people?
Last question is your favorite charity because shaw and partners who are sponsoring this podcast are offering
$10,000 to every guest to give to their charity of choice
So you can split it up if you want or you can give that 10,000 to one
Who would you like to give that to deb? It'd have to be adopt change. Yeah, beautiful
What will adopt change do with ten thousand dollars? What's an example of how they spend their money?
Okay, we spend our money. Well, we have a lot of volunteers and people there we provide
Backpacks for the kids that are transitioning they get a backpack with toothbrush with a you know, a cuddly toy
A blanket, you know people knit blankets. We can provide wool for them. We have services
We come in with our online lounge classes. We have
Yoga teachers, whatever we have it's put to work by providing services
You know the advocacy we're doing is changing the world. So it is totally put to good use beautiful
Well, I imagine for ten thousand dollars. That's a lot of backpacks
So a lot of kids will be going into their new experience with something that is their own
It's really important that they have something that's theirs. Yeah. Oh deb
It is so lovely to see you down the line
I wish I could jump through the screen and give you a big a big hug
So thanks for joining us on not an overnight success and it's been an absolute pleasure
Go give jacko a big cuddle and the kids of course and we'll see you soon. Thanks guys. It was great talking to you
Well, that was deb relief finesse and what I really enjoyed about deb was well a whole lot of things
We could have chatted forever, which is pretty much what I say about all our guests
But I suppose it was like, I don't know it's jealousy
Envy and I don't mean that in a way that's sort of nasty
But it was like we both sort of shared that moment where you know, we both love jacko so much
I've obviously loved him since the age of five and
She adores him and has been the most wonderful person for him for the last 26 years
It was just great to share that sort of moment together and to talk about that type of stuff that you wouldn't normally talk about
But there's so much in deb that I love and adore and it was just lovely to be able to have a proper chat to her
Coming up next in the episode of not an overnight success is one of australia's favorite celebrity chefs and restaurateurs
His name is matt moran matt is a country kid who has dominated the chefing and restaurant world
He worked his way from dreaming of being on the deep fryer to owning and operating some of the best restaurants in australia
Even in the world matt speaks candidly about what it takes to be successful in the industry
As well as his relationship with people like gordon ramsey that have come along in his lifetime
A big thank you to shaw and partners financial services who have generously supported this podcast and also donated
$10,000 to the charity of choice of each of our guests to thank them for their time
Shaw and partners are an australian investment and wealth management firm who manage over 28 billion dollars of assets under advice
With seven offices around australia shaw and partners act for and on behalf of individuals
Institutions corporates and charities for more info. You can check out their website at shaw and partners.com.au
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