Kemi Neckverpool is my next guest on this Empowering Leaders podcast.
I love this conversation.
Brilliant, remarkable, full of wisdom is how I describe Kemi.
You'll hear her talk about her ability to encourage and coach people to action to live a better life.
She's got a brilliant, unique, and concise way of doing exactly that.
She also shares her view on what it means to live a connected, values-based life.
She's a remarkable person, Kemi.
I hope you enjoy the conversation.
I'm sure you will, and I'm sure you'll learn a lot from it.
Kemi is one of the leaders that inspire the work that we do at Alita,
and we'd love you to check out our signature program, Alita Connect.
Curated, facilitated groups of five or six, we bring diverse leaders together,
like Kemi, with people from sport, industry, the arts,
a range of different areas, social venture, to learn, to share, and to collaborate.
Check out alitacollective.com, and we'd love you to book a discovery call.
We'll jump on a call with you and hopefully connect with you
in that space that we're incredibly passionate about.
Huge thanks, as always, to Jason Nicholas and his team from Temper,
a mattress like no other.
It's NASA-approved, the world's best in mattresses and bedding,
an investment in a Temper mattress.
For better sleep, we'll change your life.
The great leaders that I speak to on the Empowering Leaders podcast
all share that in common.
They value sleep, and they understand that that is an incredible part
of living a happy, successful life.
Kemi Neckler is one of Australia's leading credentialed coaches
for female executives and entrepreneurs, an author,
and a highly sought-after international speaker.
She has studied leadership and purpose at the Gross National Happiness Centre
in Bhutan and trained with Dr. Brené Brown to become a certified
Dare to Lead facilitator.
She's the host of a brilliant podcast, The Shift Series,
has a new series on Audible, which I'm keen to find out more about,
and renowned for her compassion and wisdom, Kemi is a powerful advocate
for connected, values-based living.
Kemi, I've heard so much about you from so many different people.
Thanks for taking the time to chat today.
Oh, I'm really happy to be here, Luke.
Thank you for inviting me.
And I was saying just before we started, I really enjoyed listening
to your brilliant podcast in preparation for today, The Shift Series.
I'm not sure I'm the target demographic, Kemi, in some ways,
but it's brilliant, and you've got an incredible way of sharing practical,
actionable ways to live a better life.
I love the stuff.
I love the stuff on intention-setting and the power of dreams.
You've got a great way about it.
Thank you so much.
I love that you listen to my podcast and I listen to your podcast as well,
so we can prepare for that.
That's really great.
Yeah, I created The Shift Series because, obviously,
I know that coaching is an incredibly powerful tool for people,
but that not everyone is going to be able to access coaching.
And so the way that I decided to set up The Shift Series was that people
are kind of looking at it from a different perspective,
listening in on the essence of a coaching conversation.
And then from that, I invite the listener to then take action
that is relevant to them in their area of life at that moment.
And, you know, they're very short podcasts, as you'll know.
They're kind of like five to eight minutes because I really want it to be
about the person taking action in their lives and not just sort of having
the insight and then going on living the life the same way
that maybe isn't working for them.
It is actionable.
I found myself writing down and following your words and saying,
right, you know, this is what – don't just listen to this.
What are you going to do about it?
And I think you've got a brilliant way.
I mean, coaching for a lot of people still, Kimmy, is a scary word.
A lot of people still think that's something that's unattainable.
Are you finding that shifting slightly or not?
You know, I think definitely when we look at culturally,
coaching is new in Australia.
You know, obviously, not sports coaching.
That's, you know, that's very well woven into it.
It's very well woven into Australian culture.
But when it comes to, you know, you don't have to be an executive
I think a lot of people are realizing that we're not meant to do life
on our own and that there are many different helping professionals
and supportive professionals.
So, you know, my definition of the work that I do as a coach is to really
walk alongside somebody, not behind, not in front, but alongside them
as they are journeying through their life and working out what is working
right now and what can I celebrate, you know, in regard to that.
What is not working?
What are my opportunities for growth and how do I want to move forward?
And then there are therapists who are, you know, I'm sure that a lot
of your listeners either, you know, have a therapist or have had therapy
or understand what it is.
And therapists can be trained as coaches, which is where people can get
kind of confused.
But the idea is that with the therapy, you're really working in that
therapeutic space for a period of time.
But my focus as a coach is always about moving forward.
So it doesn't ignore what has happened in the past or behaviors,
but it's really focusing on what is it that you need to move forward
into the life that you want to create for yourself or the style of leadership
that you want for yourself.
And it's so powerful that we use it in the work that we do in our space
called A Leader as well, Kimmy.
We call it accompaniment coaching, exactly as you're saying.
You're not mentoring, which is a different thing.
It's really walking, as you said, side by side with someone.
And I love the accountability of it.
And often the answers lie within.
And we know, Kimmy, the research is so powerful, isn't it?
When you come up with your own solutions and they're the ones that are going to be
and they're the ones that stick more often than not.
Is that is that why you've chosen that path?
Yes, 100 percent.
You know, I'll be honest, Luke, in the early days, you know,
like when I was a teenager in my mid 20s or something, I was definitely the helper.
I say an inverted inverted commas because there can be a kind of arrogance
around being the helper because you just kind of think, well,
if they just do what I say, you know, if they just take on my advice,
their life would be fine.
What is wrong with them?
The thing about that is that what we do is that we create
a power imbalance that we then the person that you've been given advice to,
if it wasn't right for them, they then feel like they failed
because they didn't do what you told them to do.
And what I've you know, what I've discovered is that none of us like unsolicited advice.
You know, I think what's really powerful is if we ask someone for advice
and they can give it to us, that is great.
We're all here as humans to connect and support each other.
But there is something more sustainable and more empowering
when someone finds their own answer.
So it was a coach.
You know, somebody might say to me, I want to get healthier.
For example, I don't generally work with people in the kind of the health space
in particular well-being as a whole umbrella I do.
But just to give a simple example, if somebody says to me, I want to be healthier,
I'll then say in what area of your life, what does that mean for you?
What does that look like?
Why is that important?
And then breaking it down to very small actions.
Because if I said to them, well, you obviously have to drink two liters of water a day
and they go and do that and it doesn't work for them for whatever reason.
That's not coaching.
So I'm always very mindful.
And that's why I hold my credential in such high regard
because I'm very clear about what my role is and what my role isn't.
And giving advice is not my role.
And there's a real discipline in that too, isn't there, Kemi?
Because at times I'm sure it's, you know, God, I've got the answer for you.
I can genuinely share that.
But you're right.
I love the discipline of that style of coaching.
And I often think, you know, some of the most successful people in the world,
Roger Federer, maybe the greatest tennis player ever,
still had a coach, you know, right at the end of his career.
It's such a powerful, powerful tool to use,
particularly when you've got someone as credentialed and respected as you.
Kemi, I wanted to use some of your own words
and then ask you a question on the back of it.
And you wrote this,
My story is not my excuse, it's my why.
As a black child raised by five sets of white foster parents,
some incredibly loving, some not so much,
I always felt I had to prove my worth so that I could be allowed to stay.
I had to not only be a good girl,
but a good black girl.
I had no say in where I would live or who my new mum and dad would be
or where I would be living next.
Can I ask you about your own personal development from that upbringing
to the point now where you help so many people so consistently well,
what were you able to do to get to that stage?
Well, yes, I grew up in the 1970s in England.
I hope that people can still hear my English accent.
I'm now an Australian citizen.
I've been here for 20 years, but I'm still saying yogurt.
And I'm still holding on to duvet.
If I can take them to the end, I'll be very happy.
And I was one of many tens of thousands of Nigerian children
that were fostered to white families in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.
My parents, like all parents,
made the decisions that they thought were the best for their children,
especially in regard to education.
But we also can't ignore the kind of colonial narrative that went into that,
the idea that the best education is English white education.
And so that meant, yes, I had very many foster parents growing up.
And I did feel a sense of powerlessness,
because if you don't know who your next mom and dad's going to be,
and I just knew I had to be good.
I think for those of us identified as women,
part of our kind of socialization is that we have to be a good girl,
a good wife, a good sister, a good daughter,
which is a really small box in, you know, in which we get to operate.
And I don't want my epitaph to say Kemi was good.
Like I would be really disappointed if I could see my own gravestone.
And that's what I would say.
I'd be scratching it and graffitiing on it.
But, you know, we, by default,
we kind of have this sense that that is what we need to do to be valuable.
And having spent a childhood where I felt powerless most of the time
and that I didn't get to use my own voice most of the time.
And that, to be honest, Luke, I wasn't really showing up as myself,
because the mask of good means that no one can actually really get to me,
because I was always on high alert to make sure I wasn't doing anything
that would upset anyone around me
or anything that would upset anyone around me.
Or anything that would cause the consequences
to have a negative impact on me.
And so I definitely know that my childhood
and the way that I've lived my life,
100% is part of the reason why I do my work now.
The other reason, I'm an avid reader.
And I read my first personal development book at 18.
I don't know if you remember the book, The Celestine Prophecy.
Have you ever read that book?
No, I haven't, no.
So it was written by James Redfield.
And it was in the 1990s.
I'm not sure how it translates now.
So I will put that in the description.
There's a caveat.
But at the time, I was about 18 years old.
And it was the first time that it had ever been communicated to me
that you didn't just have to put up with the life that you had been given.
Like, even with all those different families.
And there's been some actually great things about living in different families.
It's really helped how I've parented my own children.
Because I've kind of had a bit of a buffet table.
Take what worked, sort of leave that that didn't work.
Take a little bit of that.
But this idea for me of, wow,
you don't just have to just put up with what you've been given.
You can actually craft and curate your life.
Doesn't mean it's easy.
Doesn't mean that people around you are going to understand what you're doing
or why you're doing it.
But that book gave me permission to think,
maybe I get to create a life that actually honors who I am.
And maybe I'm allowed.
Actually, I'm going to rephrase.
Maybe I am going to allow myself to show up in the world as a full expression of myself.
Kimmy, I wasn't aware.
I wasn't aware of that happening in the 60s and 70s,
that there was lots of Nigerian young people like yourself sent over to the UK.
When you speak and spoke to your parents and I suppose other Nigerians,
what was the experience?
Look at it as a whole.
Was it well-intentioned but damaging?
Or do you think, how do you view it when you look back on it?
Yeah, look, it's an interesting thing.
There's actually a film called Farming,
which is about this particular.
And in some ways, there's kind of the Australian parallel
with kind of the stolen generations.
You know, like I was born in England,
but there was still very much this idea that the English way of education was the best way.
Like my parents were smart enough to kind of have us born in England as well,
because they were like, if they have England citizenship,
then that means they're going to get more opportunities as well.
In terms of, you know, overall,
I would hate to give an overall opinion of how it turned out.
What I can tell you is that some of the children,
did go back and become the doctors and lawyers of Nigeria,
because that was the main intention.
You know, so many parents want their kids to be doctors and lawyers,
or they definitely did, you know, in that time.
And that did happen and they had their dream come true.
Some families became very, very disconnected.
And a lot of kids that I know that did go through that kind of system
have had to navigate their identity and where they sit.
And that's been a journey that they have to take ownership of as well.
And I love what you said.
The other part of that previous answer was that power at a young age to find,
hey, I'm in charge of my own destiny.
I can create my own future.
And for some people,
that is not something they maybe grasped their entire life, is there?
That they feel as though the circumstances that they were brought up in
or life has dealt them a hand and that's it.
It's a pretty powerful thing.
And that's, I'm assuming what you do is coach people to that best version, isn't it?
What do you want to be?
How do you want to take action to do that?
And, you know, it's interesting.
You know, Nigerian heritage grew up in London.
You end up in country Victoria.
You've definitely taken charge of your own life.
You're a chef as well and an actor.
So you've certainly treaded your own path.
And what's been really interesting, you know, when I look back,
I think it's Steve Jobs that said it's only when you look back that you sort of realize.
And I noticed a few years ago that the one thing,
even though I wasn't necessarily in safe situations as a child,
or I wasn't necessarily, you know, one of one of the things for me in my experience at school
was that because I was black in a mainly white space and because I was fostered,
my teachers didn't expect anything from me and they just thought the fact that I turned up was enough.
So I was never kind of given any opportunities to kind of stretch or expand outside of myself.
And but what I've noticed, what I've realized is that I've always done what I've been passionate about.
And I am one of those multi-passionate people.
I left school, I trained as a baker, then I went from there.
I acted for seven years in England with the Royal Shakespeare Company on TV with the National Theatre.
But then when I was in New York with the Royal Shakespeare Company,
I realized I really love acting.
It is fun, but it's taken me a long time to understand who I am.
And I don't want to play characters for the rest of my life.
I'd like to learn more about who Kemi is.
So then that was probably one of the scariest things I've ever had to do is leave an industry
and a pay packet at that time.
Or a form, it's not even so much about the pay packet.
I suppose it's what society believes that particular role gives you.
So there I am coming from this space of, well, you've had this amazing opportunity
and you never thought that someone like you would be able to do this.
So what, now you're going to give it up?
But I just knew that I couldn't maintain being in that environment that wasn't bringing me joy.
I was getting sadder and sadder and sadder.
And it was very isolating and very lonely
to leave a profession like that.
A profession that many people covet or that people perceive is like,
well, once you've got that, then that's the ultimate.
And to actually go, but I don't want it.
And it's lonely and I felt guilt.
And who do you think you are to not want what you should want?
But it was one of the hardest and best decisions of my life.
And I think sometimes they are.
Isn't that how it works out?
The hardest ones can be the best ones in the end.
I think you're right.
And I love the courage of it too, isn't it?
When someone else's dream job doesn't make you happy, a lot of people,
well, a lot of people stay in any job, don't they?
Because the courage to change is, you know,
and I think the stats on that are really horrific, aren't they?
People for security reasons don't leave, but it's a long life, isn't it?
Doing something that doesn't fulfill you.
Someone on this podcast came in the work we did to success leaves clues.
And now you're genuinely helping people around, you know,
connected values-based living.
What would you describe?
I mean, it's a unique thing to everyone, I'm assuming,
Happy, connected, and successful life.
How would you describe that?
Definitely values come into that because you're right.
It is unique to every single individual.
And I could have five people in front of me and ask them exactly the same
coaching question, and they would all give me a completely different answer.
Because although we've been kind of duped into the idea that we all want the
same life, which is a very kind of capitalist sort of external,
how does the life look as opposed to how does it feel?
And look, when I say capitalistic,
I'm not saying, you know, money is currency.
It's an energy that we have in the world that we have.
And it's incredibly important.
I'm talking about the structure of capitalism,
that that is kind of the ideal,
that that's the ladder that we should all attain.
But that isn't the ladder that a lot of people want,
you know, and some do want to get to the top of that ladder and they thrive.
And that's their, that's their calling.
And that's what they're meant to do.
But I found that when people actually give themselves the space,
which is kind of coaching for me,
I work with my clients 45 minutes fortnightly.
That's all it is,
but it is 45 minutes.
It's where they really honestly get to look at their life and what is
important to them and what is not important to them and taking the time to
kind of move away.
What they've been told should be important compared to what is important are
the life changing realizations.
I have an action bias.
So of course the insight and the breakthrough is really important,
but unless it's transferred into action,
sort of out in the real world,
we just go around with insights and breakthroughs,
actually transforms.
And the action is the hard part.
but actually having the courage to do something about it,
that's where the courage comes in.
And it sounds like listening to your work.
That's a really clear thing.
You really push to action straight away.
And I love the intention setting part as well.
I think that forces you into that space too,
Can we have all these goals and I listened to all this stuff and I write
down these notes,
but nothing happens for me.
Can you explain why intention setting really is important?
And part of it for you?
intention setting is really important.
I set an intention every day.
Let me think today.
What was I journaling this morning?
So I do a meditation and my intention comes and my one today was connected
that was my intention for today.
And so then when I have the intention,
So then I'm just kind of looking,
looking for the magic and I'm always looking for magic and delight and joy.
I'm kind of obsessed with magic and joy and delight.
And yesterday I was right.
I was the end of the third day of a dare to lead retreat.
I run dare to lead retreats.
And my intention that day was ignited gratitude that I get to be in the space
doing the work that I do with leaders that are really wanting to lead in a way
that is human and value based.
a few people are scribbling down notes all the time and we were looking at
cause Brené Brown's works.
We're looking at vulnerability and shame.
And I sort of asked them and I said,
how tell me about the note taking?
I always take lots of notes.
And then what happens?
and because we're on such a heavy topic of looking at,
where the shame show up in organizations or in your leadership,
we then could have the conversation where she was honest enough to say,
I just find this all just so,
just so difficult and so vulnerable.
I just thought I'd write some things.
I think the writing is fantastic.
It can reveal so much to us,
and the note taking.
unless we take action outside of ourselves,
as you mentioned at the beginning,
accountability is so important that that's what we provide as coaches is that
level of accountability.
Not that I'm texting my clients every day going,
have you done it?
Have you done it?
Have you done it?
But just that they know that I can hold for them what is important to them and
that they've told me what they're going to do.
And that when we next speak,
they're either going to say to me,
I took the action and this was the outcome.
It's better than I expected,
or it's not what I expected.
can we work on that?
Or they're going to say,
I didn't take the action and I'm like,
Now we have some feedback.
So why do you think you didn't take the action?
So what was it about that?
And that might take us on a completely different track.
it's not always about the client taking the action.
I think you'd agree,
it's about who the person becomes on the goal.
It's not always about the goal.
It's who do you become on the journey?
Some of my sessions are celebrations.
people struggle to celebrate themselves and their achievements.
my role is to mirror back.
do you know how you just had that hard conversation?
Would you have had that a year ago?
And there's that recognition of no.
and they suddenly realize,
I'm making progress.
You're making progress.
I love so much to,
to jump off and chat to you about the celebration part in,
in an era of sport,
where you were told unless you win the grand final,
that's the only time to celebrate.
And some of us played for 14 years and didn't do that.
long time of really having an ordinary time,
Whereas now it's so much better.
It was little wins along the way,
just the joy and the genius.
But if you don't celebrate them,
you miss so much joy along the path.
you've sort of championed that part of the conversation as well.
it's so important.
I'm not a big sports person.
I watched Ted Lasso.
That's probably about as close as I'm getting to sport at the moment.
And how good's Ted Lasso,
if you haven't seen that,
really worth watching.
talk about leadership,
value-based leadership,
just breaking down gender stereotypes.
that is impactful television.
But I am an endurance runner.
So it's really interesting.
So most of my goals and I'll run like my sort of sweet spot is a 50 K race,
but I've run up to 104 kilometers and,
marathon distances.
My goal is always to finish the race.
that's my main goal.
But even within that,
I always have three other goals.
So there are always,
kind of next little steps.
So it's kind of like,
I'm going to run up to the top of that particular high hill,
or I'm going to make sure that I am at a particular pace on the downhill on
that particular thing or something so that actually I always,
success begets success.
So then you have this feeling of I'm always making progress.
I can put these little goals in place.
I think a lot of times we make the goal so big,
even when I'm running those big races,
I'm only taking one step at a time.
I'm not running 104 kilometers.
I'm running one step at a time.
One foot in front of the other.
But I think unless we put little,
we miss the progress that we're making.
And if we don't think we're making progress,
then we pull out or we create the goal to be so big
that we don't even know where to start.
And we're paralyzed.
And that doesn't work either.
And I loved even going back to a bit of,
your intention setting to,
104 case sounds like the worst thing ever in the history of
You don't want to play soccer for me Sam.
You can have your marathon running.
That's all for you.
but I love even one of the stories I think you shared in
in the last couple of days,
which is even about your shift to the country and you put
some intention around,
this is what it's going to look like.
And I think you and your husband sat down and,
a dozen factors around what it might look like planning it
for a long time further out,
people often wonder why things don't work out,
but you put that into the universe and,
you're there a lot quicker than you thought.
it's a powerful thing,
I remember sitting my husband down.
I grew up in Kent in England's country garden.
and so we took our kids out of school in 2015 and we
went around Australia for 387 days.
And when we got back,
I just said to my husband,
I love the city and everything that it brings,
but I actually want to stay.
I want to move to the country because I knew with the
I wanted to be around nature and have space so that I
can be full up so that I can,
I can be of service in a sustainable way.
And we're not yet permanently at the farm,
but we will be once our youngest leaves home,
which hopefully will be in the next couple of years.
But I remember just saying to my husband,
let's just write down,
let's just write down what it is that we want in this
Like what is important to us moving forward?
And I think we wrote a list of 16 things and we got
I'm very much believe in putting intentions out to the
We can let the other two go.
I reckon we're pretty close.
to create your own path.
it's what you discovered at 18,
Going back to the celestial prophecy,
as you said before,
the ability to be able to create your own,
your own world fascinated by you studying in Bhutan.
And what an incredible place on my,
The only country in the world that measures its wealth
for the happiness of its people.
you've got to say that again,
To understand how brilliant that is.
you studied the gross national happiness,
tell me about that.
my husband and I were chatting.
We're actually going to go back again this year.
I highly recommend that you go just be aware of the plane journey.
As you go into Bhutan,
the plane kind of goes vertically through some cliffs.
Make sure you have your values intact by the time you do that.
I'm already nervous.
It's about six months away,
and I need to put a caveat in here.
Bhutan has people in it.
So although they measure the wealth of their country through the
happiness of their people,
there are people that are unhappy in that country.
It's not as if everyone's skipping through flowery meadows,
but what they notice,
as I said earlier,
that success is not just measured on economic advancement,
that you also have to look at it in terms of how a community is
how individuals going,
what is the impact that we're making on the environment and that
they're measured all the time.
And even being at the,
at the leadership course there in Bhutan,
at the happiness center,
that we were leaders from all over the world,
various industries spending a week together in this incredible environment.
And even how that was constructed,
I could feel my very Western mind wanting to kind of speed up the process.
this was now over 10 years ago and,
we'd wake up every day,
we'd spend time together.
we'd kind of co-create what we'd be doing for that day.
And I could feel,
I think I said to my husband at one point,
so what are we doing?
so what are we doing?
Or something like that.
To just kind of be in how grounding it is to just have that pause and to have
that peace was incredibly special.
And just to spend time with leaders across the world,
wanting to look at leadership from a different lens,
wanting to look at what sustainable leadership is from a different lens.
And I'm really looking forward to going back this year and seeing kind of where
they're up to now,
their programs and learning more.
I think some of the words that,
that I read of yours,
the world doesn't need more busy women.
it needs more present and powerful women,
another great piece of wisdom.
And it sounds like that's something we all juggle with,
There's so many great things to do,
pressing pause to not miss the point of life is something I think about all
And how do you go about that?
I love the pause.
I spend a lot of time.
It's funny because people,
I call myself an anti busy advocate.
So people will sort of see the work,
that I do or where I do it,
or who I spend my time with and just assume that I'm busy.
But one thing I know for sure is that I'm not a kind person when I'm
overwhelmed and busy.
I'm incredibly resentful.
If I feel too stretched,
if I feel like I'm not really showing up to the people or the things that
matter to me in a way that,
that I feel proud of,
I'm not a very kind person.
Like I'm exhausted.
I try and move away from busy.
even the wording that I try to use is,
we all have periods in our life,
when it comes to work or even raising children where,
the stakes are higher,
like it's taking something and it's tough.
I changed that to full.
I've got a full couple of weeks and I've just started writing about a little
I'm about to start writing my fourth book.
And so I'm playing with this idea,
but I think the distinction is for me,
busy is having things happen to you.
Whereas full is intentionally choosing what is in your calendar.
I'm busy as if you have no control as opposed to know I've chosen what's in my
And there's a level of ownership over that.
That the idea of busy is that I'm not present to what's important.
Whereas full is I'm doing what is important.
So I'm just playing with,
I'm playing with it now,
come back to me in a year or so see where I'm up to.
But I think it's important that we really look at these words that we use
because this whole busy as a status thing is what leads to burnout in people.
And leads to people living lives that aren't actually fulfilling for them.
It's a great point.
And I love the way you described that.
Can you busy as a status?
in Hawaii city on a beach next to someone who's had to take a phone call.
Who's having a great time,
but needed to say,
I've got some meetings.
I've got stuff going on.
And I've done that too.
Where you think people are going to think I'm not successful if I don't show
them how full my calendar is.
but in the end that,
it makes us incredibly unhappy.
it's a success language that needs changing,
It's a work in progress.
And that's such a great example because I think about it now.
And actually when I think,
when I think about that,
I think I'm more prone now to look at the person that could be on the beach
which by the way is on my bucket list.
I'm more prone to see the person that could be on the beach on Hawaii and
not have to take calls as a successful person because they're present to where
So let's even take Hawaii out of it.
The person that can be on holiday with their children and be with their
That would be a level of success for me,
and not everyone,
depending on the industry or where you are,
in terms of title within your role or your job or what you do.
not everyone can do that all of the time,
but I do think people miss that.
We can do it more often than we think we can.
Like I'm speaking as an entrepreneur,
I get a hundred percent ownership over my time,
but I've also been an employee and one of the gifts I believe of COVID is
that we actually,
for those people that are employed,
we have a little bit more agency now around how we work.
And I just hope that people are courageous enough to ask for what they need
so they can be present to what matters most in their life.
It's a beautifully said,
It is hopefully this huge shift that's happened,
Now the ability to have that flexibility.
I'm thinking of a line that I know I'll butcher,
no one on their deathbed has ever regretted working harder or striving more.
The only regrets are always,
The less time with family,
or the more time to take that time out.
it's easy to say,
but we've been conditioned the other way.
And I know the same feeling too.
when you work in a space where people see you,
you're busy all the time,
I tried to fence.
there's nothing like what it looks like.
I've got a whole heap of other time where I do my best to not be busy,
but it doesn't always work that way.
And I think having the balance is,
I think most of us are aiming for kind of having that balance where we're doing
work that is fulfilling.
And we're also in relationships and in families that are nourishing and
people have had some,
some people have had that experience of where they have the success,
whatever it looks like on paper,
but actually all of their personal relationships are in disarray or where you
have all of your relationships are working perfectly well,
but you're not making the impact or you're not doing the work that you want
So I think the work is always what is balanced look like for me,
depending on the season I'm living in,
which is different for all of us.
one of the things I,
that I'm really passionate about with our space called elite,
we bring together different leaders,
diverse leaders from different backgrounds into these bespoke connected
And I love talking.
I'm fascinated by your answers in this,
because we see some patterns of what really great modern leadership is
looking like in our view.
And I want to ask you about some of these dimensions of leadership,
starting with self leadership.
we don't think that you can lead others without a sense of what your own
Does that resonate with you?
And I think the beautiful thing about that is,
and this is the work,
Luke is that we think that work is this thing outside of us that we,
get in the car to get to or something,
but actually the ultimate work is the work on self.
And so we all want to follow leaders who are self aware of how they
impact the people around them.
We want to be around leaders that can identify the humanity in us because
they can identify the humanity in themselves.
And I've literally just come off the back of doing a dare to lead
retreat yesterday.
that is the context of the work.
And Brene Brown says this self awareness matters that so many things
happen in organizations within leadership,
because we're just not aware of what we're doing.
We don't know that we made that offhand comment that actually made,
one of our team members kind of really off for the rest of the day or made
them feel like they could,
they weren't capable at their job and we don't have the tool to then go back
in and just check in and say,
that comment I made,
did that kind of put you off side a little bit?
Cause I'd like to know,
cause I don't want you to feel like you didn't do a great job on the
I just want to redefine what the project was meant to be or something,
I think leadership,
not I think I know that leaders should always be doing work on themselves so
they can show up as for humans.
Cause we want to be led by humans.
insight into that.
And I was looking at your dare to lead,
they look brilliant.
can we give that a mention now?
Because I see you've,
I was just obviously finished one up,
but it's something you do.
You bring groups of people,
eight to 10 to 12.
to spend that reflective time.
very blessed to go and train with Renee in Texas.
I can now sort of add that tool set of the deadly program and kind of,
but I get to facilitate the content.
these actual retreats are for women.
I do actually do one-to-one coach with a few good men.
I have to let you know that Luke,
like not exclusively when I birthed a man and I'm married to a man.
So that all works.
cause I love to bring together women of various ages in different industries.
I remember when I first started putting the retreats together,
I'm kind of curious to know sort of the work that you do in terms of if you
work with entrepreneurs and people within the corporate organizational space.
But I remember thinking at the beginning,
I'll do a death lead retreat for entrepreneurs and I'll do a death lead
retreat for people in organizations and corporates.
And then I realized,
why would you do that?
You want to bring together,
these two different styles of working.
So there can be this beautiful osmosis and people understanding how it is in
each other people's camp.
everyone always says one of the most powerful things about having groups of
people together where they feel safe is that you get to hear that what you're
going through is not a solo experience that someone's either been there before
or they're in the middle of it,
or they're on the other side of it.
that gives you a really great,
really good grounding in your leadership and your style of leadership moving
we'll have to connect with this,
because I think there's some,
some shared synergy.
a leader connect is the program that my,
Matt and I are passionate about.
And we started because we,
we come from a sporting background.
So we put non-competing coaches together in groups and then created this sort of trusted
space where it's pretty lonely for a lot of them,
as you would know in leadership positions.
But then what we quickly realized a bit like you was that,
to have a coach and we have got this,
a coach of a sporting team,
senior coach of a sporting team.
and you won't mind Michael Voss from Carlton with Benjamin Northey,
who's the conductor of the Melbourne symphony orchestra.
And then put Kimmy neck to the bill in that situation.
what happens when you get completely different parts of your brain using for the sports coach,
they get to tap into your beautiful wisdom and thinking that there would never open a space or a conductor.
How do you conduct an orchestra in Spain?
We don't speak Spanish and you got 450 people.
And what does that bring to the table?
So that's become the real passion for us.
the diversity of thinking is the superpower and not just the idea that you need to do it for ticking a box.
So it's really evolved in that space.
So I'm fascinated that you're seeing a bit of the same in what you're doing as well.
100% and actually what happened this retreat was really great.
we all know why diversity is really important in all spaces in all places for all people.
But even in the retreat over the weekend,
one of the female leaders,
we do a lot of role play around hard conversations because that is the,
that is the thing that kind of has daring leaders.
That's the antithesis to daring leadership is not having hard conversations is talking about people behind their back instead of talking to them.
I'm creating these kind of the meeting after the meeting,
all of these sorts of things we do in the data lead work.
And one of the women could take ownership of her neurodivergency and we'll role playing these hard conversations.
but I'm just direct all the time.
I don't need to role play.
That's part of my,
that's part of what I do.
That's what my husband's always saying.
You don't have to be,
you don't have to say,
the truth all the time.
So then it was people.
So then people like,
so someone was said to her,
so how would you say that?
and she could just cut through it because of her neurodivergency.
She didn't have kind of the social malls that some of us can fill it.
I don't want to hurt that person.
I don't want them to think this.
She just said it like it was.
And what was interesting is that the person that she was kind of role playing with,
feedback to the room,
how did it feel to have someone communicate with you in a really clear and kind and direct way?
And this other woman just said,
I didn't leave the room.
I wouldn't have left the room thinking,
what did she really mean?
Or was there something she wasn't saying?
Or is she saying this?
She told me what she thought.
She told me how we were going to work on it together.
And I feel supported as a team member and I could take the feedback.
And how brilliant is that real life learning,
From someone who's actually doing it,
who does it naturally and not,
in a style that you're,
but you can learn.
They're learned skills,
you can learn how to bring people together in retreats is close your line with what we love.
case studies are brilliant,
but they often happen 20 years ago.
What's happening currently is really,
really interesting.
The second dimension,
I wanted to talk to,
and you actually mentioned in your first answer,
we see modern leaders that are self-aware,
very conscious about how they positively impact people in their environment.
How have you gone about that?
And what does that mean to you?
I suppose for me,
it is being able as,
as a public speaker and author,
I do have a freedom and a privilege in being able to kind of own my opinions.
And I get to say what I want to say.
I'm a very bounded person.
So you're never going to see me sort of oversharing on social media or anything,
but I do share about my life and I do share about my story and I share about what I'm thinking as opposed.
And I sometimes will share about what I know,
but I try and share through the lens of my experience.
Like I don't have it all together.
I don't have all the answers.
And what I have found is that I'm attracting people that want to work with me,
that it's sort of sitting in that space too.
It's kind of like they know that they want a trusted partner to walk alongside with them as they're navigating life.
And the more that I share who I am,
what's important to me,
my views on things,
they get to know whether or not I'm the person for them.
And I think it's really,
the more people are able to stand up and feel safe enough to say,
this is who I am.
This is where I come from.
This is what's wounded me.
This is where I've succeeded.
This is how my wounds have helped my success.
The more that each of us are willing to do that,
we can't all be attracted to all the same people at the same time,
but we are led towards our people,
But we can only do that if the leaders are showing up as who they are.
And I think that's really powerful.
I always just want to put the caveat in because I know that there are people that are not entrepreneurs.
So you just get the leader that you get and that's it.
But that's kind of where the self leadership comes in.
so how do I get to show up as a leader in this space where maybe I don't have the title,
but I still get to lead and show up in a way that is of service to others,
but in a way that also empowers me.
beautifully said.
I love the holistic thought,
just sharing what great outcomes look for different people.
And you mightn't be an entrepreneur or you mightn't want to take it in a certain direction,
but given the state of some of the things happening at a higher level,
to just share what good people are doing
and the way they live their life,
I feel is a pretty meaningful and positive thing to do.
And clearly you're doing that at an incredibly powerful way.
And I want to mention your book too,
and I'll get to that in a moment,
a brilliant book,
A Women's Guide to Living and Leading Without Apology.
I'll ask you about that in a moment.
Creating and sharing your vision is something we see really as a common trait,
a modern leader is very clear about how they go about it.
You've got very clear language around what you do and how,
you want to achieve that.
Can you tell us how you've gone about creating and sharing that vision?
on a kind of tactical sort of ground level basis,
I do three things.
And then I have an incredible EA that does everything in the background so that I can show up and do those things
because my calendar management is just not my core genius.
So no one should have to deal with me doing that.
people did have to deal with me doing that,
which is why I now have somebody else doing it.
on a kind of tangible level,
that's what it is.
I very much see that my,
somebody said in the retreat that she has a divine mission.
And I thought that was so beautiful.
and then you just cut away anything that's superfluous from the divine mission.
it's this idea of,
I know why I'm here and I'm here to create spaces where women,
identify as women or anyone from marginalized communities,
know that they are allowed to be in any space that they want to be without apology.
And that is my work.
And whether that is me sharing on Instagram,
as a black woman owning a farm,
actually getting into flower farming,
that's my next passion.
And I'm there with my hydrangeas and my delphiniums and,
like that's my next passion.
And I know for myself,
there's not many black women that are growing flowers or that own farms in Australia.
that's giving a mirror to people to say,
you are allowed to do this too.
It doesn't just look a certain way.
anything where I'm living my life as a model,
have no interest in being anyone's guru.
I am a human being and I have,
speak to my teenagers or my husband,
like I'm very much a human.
But I do definitely feel that the life that I have lived and the experience that I've had,
I am taking full ownership of those things.
I'm a woman in midlife now.
And if I have 40 years left,
what a gift that would be.
And I'm definitely not going to hide anymore.
And I don't want other marginalized people,
whether that's gender,
whether that's ability,
whether that's identity to think that,
that we have to keep on hiding because this,
I have a 17 year old and I know that you have teenagers loop.
I feel so privileged to be around this generation.
That just don't even care about the things that we thought were really big things and that they are recreating language.
And is it difficult to get on board?
Sometimes I have a non-binary 17 year old and it took a while to change the pronouns and all of those things.
I had a dear friend say to me on my,
my child sort of maybe doing the pronouns,
but I just don't understand it.
I don't understand.
if you focus on understanding,
you're going to miss what they're asking from you.
can you love me and respect me?
While I am trying to figure out my identity.
And I think as parents,
if we get stuck in there,
but I need to understand why they're doing the thing,
we're going to miss connection with our teenagers.
And this generation,
I believe is creating the world that most of us want to live in through language change.
that's a brilliant thought,
my mind was going immediately to my 18 year old daughter,
three boys as well.
And you know exactly where you stand with her.
she tells you in no uncertain terms.
and if you don't,
and if you try and,
I think like the language,
like that's not okay.
A hundred percent as direct as you could possibly imagine.
Sometimes it's confronting,
but you work out,
get out of the way and you don't need to understand.
I haven't thought about it quite that way.
You don't need to understand.
You just need to have the love and support in the background.
it's a great lesson.
Curiosity is a word that comes up,
with all the leaders we speak to.
And I use curiosity as a bit of a jumping off point to how they continually learn.
is that something that aligns with you?
you have to be curious.
What is life without curiosity?
I imagine it's very small.
I would say for me,
as you said earlier about these skills of practice,
curiosity has been a practice.
I was definitely navigating the world in a very small box,
very scared if I step out of the box that there'd be,
negative repercussions.
And the reality is,
is that there has been sometimes.
this idea of curiosity,
and I like this idea,
it's a very extreme sort of thing,
but I will talk to my clients and even myself.
I talk a lot about play.
just get curious.
Why do you think you're not having that conversation with your boss?
Or let's get curious.
If you were to spend a day just on your own,
what would you do with that day?
I asked the client that the other day and they,
it felt like five minutes of silence.
I'm sure it wasn't,
but they had no idea because they are very much in their roles for other people,
but could not for themselves even begin to imagine what they would do with a whole day for themselves.
So then I'm not going,
You don't know how to spend a day.
What sort of a person are you?
isn't that great?
Because now we have feedback.
So if you were to,
experiment to think about the things that you might like to do in your perfect day,
what sort of things might you,
and then that kind of,
that kind of gave the prod and then it all came out.
Like everything was coming out.
so that's seven days now complete.
But curiosity is a huge part.
I think it's also for,
for us as coaches,
it does take out judgment because,
because a client might give you an answer or a client will give me an answer.
And instead of me saying,
you didn't say that last time we spoke,
that seems to be completely different to what you actually want.
So I'm really curious because when we last spoke,
you said that you wanted the promotion,
but now I'm hearing that you're thinking of leaving your job.
Can you tell me more about that?"
So they don't feel judged in that.
They don't feel like I have an edge,
I don't have an agenda and I don't judge.
but that gives them the space to look at,
I hadn't even thought about,
actually I don't want the promotion.
but now that you said that back to me,
actually you don't.
Where should we go from here.
The brilliance is in it.
you explain it to people who might be excited to have the opportunity.
hearing you know you explain it to people who maybe haven't thought about you know the power
of that coaching is having someone to reflect your thoughts back to you isn't it is often a really
it sounds simple but an incredibly powerful thing and I can hear the brilliance of the way that you
go about it you mentioned you're an author you're a coach and you're a speaker communicating with
clarity is the dimension I wanted to ask you about and clearly you've got an enormous skill set in
all those three disciplines have you thought about that to your communication how you go about it
my I've been told that my communication is very direct um I one of my clients called me the sword
of kindness and even another client this week said to me you're very mean to me um and we sort
of had a joke about that but I think it's because this was kind of before before training as a data
I just know that I want to be communicated with clearly not unkindly but clearly and then with
all of Brene's research you know it's very much the idea is that clear is kind unclear is unkind
so I care very deeply about all of my clients I wouldn't work with them if I didn't you have to
care about the people that you work with it's such an intimate relationship and sometimes I have my
own coach I believe the best coaches have their own coaches because I'm also navigating life I
need someone to hold me accountable and mirror back to me my language or what I'm saying or not
you know that I I believe that I've completely lost my train of thought we're talking about
communicating with clarity and if you're communicating with clarity yes and so for me I
want to be communicated with in a very direct way and I and I think it's a real gift when someone's
willing to do that and when I say clear and direct way I'm not talking about aggressive you know I'm
talking the complete I'm not no passive aggressive just giving the information um in the way that
you would want to be receive that information yeah my mind's going to a quick story before um
I ask you the final two questions we had someone share this great story in this podcast um
CEO of a bank who sent one of the team to an office in Hong Kong and the only option was that
all 42 people in that office lose their jobs and sent this beautiful female executive over
there was no chance of uh being able to be integrated the business was being closed and
it turned out six months later the surveys came through about engagement surveys and what you
thought and that office having all been set gave her a hundred percent recommendation for her job
and and and this particular boss well hey something's wrong here there's anomaly in the system
and what he found out was that she was just so crystal clear so full of empathy by the way often
went home in Hong Kong was a real cultural thing about losing your job even if it wasn't for any
of your own actions so she was just so crystal clear and she was just so crystal clear and she
actually asked if she could come home to the families and deliver that on behalf of some of
them she still gets invited to birthdays and weddings of those people she stayed for an
extended period of time she actually of her own accord went and you know became a referee and
found her so even in the hardest possible decision you can tell someone to lose their job
communicating clearly can still be such a gift can't it it's a powerful example I love it that
is such a beautiful story that is such a beautiful story and I think it's a really beautiful story
yeah I love it I love sharing it and and I wanted to talk two things before the final two questions
your brilliant book power women's journey to living and leading a life without apology and
it's so much comes through and in your words and the way you speak about living a life without
apology which I love but can you tell me also about audible series coming up that you've just
created as well I'd like to hear about that too yes I'm very excited about this series so it comes
out um soon and it is called power talks and I
had the absolute honor of speaking to some of Australia's most fascinating women
and what I'm really excited about with this series is that it's so easy to look at public
figures or people that have a large platform and think that they have it all together and we see
their highlight reels even though we know their highlight reels you still can think they must have
it all together and all of us all of the women in some way are stepping in and out of their power
and so I spoke to people like Miranda Tapsell the actor um Claire Bowditch musician um and looking
at what it was for them in terms and Megan Gale just looking at what it is to send an email you
know the emails that you craft for three hours and you press send and you're just kind of holding
your breath and you know you're really hoping that you don't go appear a certain way but when
you're doing that you're not in your power you're completely power you're completely powerless and
then one of the women is kind of midlife in her career in an industry where you're told kind of
once you're past 25 there's nothing there's nothing here for you so then what is it to stand
in your power and actually take ownership of your career moving forward
and another one shares about you know the phone call that you want to make but you're really
scared of rejection um and most of these women are really of service to their communities and
the people that follow them and the few of them are looking at that balance that work-life balance
how much am I sharing out in the world but how much is for me so I just know in the same way
that you shared generously Luke about listening to my podcast I know that when listeners hear
one they'll get that sense of connection of oh just like me I had to send one of those emails
last week but also
they'll also hear a coaching session so I know that something will resonate with them where they
get to take an action because I asked them at the end of this series too what one action can you
take today that will allow you to step into your power and having listened to the shift series I
know it will be something that will move you it won't be a note that will then never see the light
of day I think you force people in a brilliant way what was it the the kindness sword is that
oh yeah the sword of kindness the sword of kindness I can see that in you it's like a
but now you're going to go and do this now it's it's fantastic so I look forward to hearing
about that who has been the greatest leader in your life oh wow what a question who has been
the greatest oh gosh I wish you'd given me time to to answer that okay I'm actually going to go
with the first person that came to mind maybe because he just sent me a text earlier his name
is Andrew Griffith and he was a speaker that I saw on stage and he was a speaker that I saw on stage
he's an incredible author and entrepreneur and I remember seeing him speak on stage and he just
stood up in his power as a very you know privileged Anglo male and this was years ago this is like 12
10 years ago now and the way that he shared his story so his vulnerability gave me full permission
to be able to use my voice in the world and that was incredibly powerful for me incredibly
powerful for me and he's now become a dear friend so that is the first person that came to mind
what a great answer what what sort of genre does he write about uh he's a business author okay yeah
he's a business well I love it uh yeah thanks for sharing I'm I'm writing uh notes that I'm
going to action they're not going to stay here but uh I've got I've got books to read and uh
that sounds fascinating I do that actually somebody said that to me the other day they're
like I always go away with like all these things to read and look at when you're right I'm a learner
I just love absorbing
other people's words and ways of navigating the world so I hope it hasn't added too much
to your library I love it you've shared uh beautifully um if you could collaborate with
anyone on anything and your number of passions and I love what you said you said you're
a woman full of passion in so many different areas and it could be an area we haven't discussed is
there someone you thought that's the person I want to collaborate with oh you keep asking now
you're asking me the hard questions because I feel like whatever I say I'm going to be like
leave someone out no I should have said okay I'll be I'll be honest
actually at the moment I'm getting to collaborate with audible and I'm collaborating with penguin
in the US and in Australia and they just feel like magical partnerships where I can fully step
into my leadership and the way that I want to own my voice and the work in the world and to have
partnership you know to have partnerships with those organizations that see me and the vision
that I have for the work that I want to do is an absolute gift so I'm very much enjoying those
partnerships right now what a great answer and um
thanks for sharing I look forward to uh to the new series on audible and uh check out
Kemi's book on power which I'm sure many have before women's guide to leading and learning
without uh apology Kemi I've as I said in the intro I've heard so much about you and it's been
a great privilege to spend some time with you thanks for taking the time out of your full
schedule it has been a delight to speak with you Luke thank you so much thank you for listening to
the empowering leaders podcast powered by temper a mattress light
no other and to make sure you don't miss an episode click subscribe wherever you get your