Jules Lund As Open Honest Vulnerable And Giving As He Has Ever Been

This next episode is with the one and only Jules Lunn, and it's fair to say he puts me

right on the back foot off the start of our conversation today, sharing a fairly disturbing

story about the last time we caught up.

Jules was a massive media success before founding his own innovative business called Tribe,

which you'll hear about throughout the podcast.

I can't think of anyone I know that is more open, vulnerable, and self-reflective than

Jules Lunn.

And to be honest with you, his pure honesty will blow you away at times in his conversation.

And in the coming weeks, Jules is actually returning to radio as the Drive host on Disrupt

Radio.

It's an Australian-first audio network specifically built for leaders and entrepreneurs.

He will be brilliant.

He's funny.

He's entertaining.

Couldn't think of a better host.

4 to 6 p.m. weekdays.

If you want to find out more about it, head to LinkedIn for the launch date.

Just simply look up Jules Lunn, and you'll see him there.

Jules is also part of one of our Leader Connect signature programs.

We love having him involved, where we bring together diverse leaders from different backgrounds

in these bespoke, curated, facilitated groups of five or six people.

And whether you be running your own business as an entrepreneur like Jules Lunn, or simply

want to connect with other like-minded people to learn, to share, and collaborate, love

you to check out our work.

Head to elitacollective.com and have a look at our Leader Connect signature program.

Book a discovery call.

We'll jump on the phone, and I'm sure that you will benefit from the value of a leader

to connect.

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Thanks to Jason and the team from Temper for their support of the Empowering Leaders podcast.

Jules Lunn is one of the most passionate and positive people you will ever meet.

His television career saw him host close to 400 episodes of Getaway, The Logies Red Carpet,

game shows, reality TV, live events, and much more.

On radio, Jules was the National Drive host on Fox FM alongside Fifi Box, and co-hosted

Sydney Breakfast Radio with Sophie Monk, Mel B, and Merrick Watts.

In 2010, Jules produced an extraordinary documentary, Every Heart Beats True, The Jim Stein Story,

all about Jules' great friend and mentor, Jim Stein's, for those who don't know,

the legendary Irish-Australian rules champion and Brownlow medalist,

the story passionately sharing the incredible friendship, and ultimately Jim's life-ending battle with cancer.

In 2015, Jules founded his business, Tribe, a marketplace for social influencers and the brands that need them.

Tribe has expanded into the US and UK, and has worked with over 7,500 brands,

including the likes of Disney, Amazon, L'Oreal, McDonald's, and many, many more.

Jules, it's always a great pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks, mate.

Thanks, Das. Last time I saw you, you hit a baby in the face.

Are we going to start there, are we? It's true, mate, and I've had some regret over that.

I was going to get to dodgeball, which to me, let's jump straight in, because that sums...

I can't have a serious conversation with you until we acknowledge the vicious elephant in the room,

which is Luke Darcy.

He comes in to a kids' community social game of dodgeball.

He doesn't break a sweat.

He just marches around, picks up these supposedly soft dodgeballs,

and somehow launches them at such velocity that they don't dip.

You know, you throw something, and it just...

It just slowly, with gravity, starts to dip, and you hurl these things,

and they stay at the same height that it left your hand for 30 metres,

and hits a little baby right in the head.

Now, I'd like to deny that, but the problem is you've got video footage to prove exactly what you're saying,

so I can't even go the deny, deny, deny.

But I remember talking to my wife.

I said, we're going over.

We're going to catch up with...

We're going to catch up with Jules and some mutual friends.

We're playing dodgeball.

And Bette was like, what, hey, are you 10 years old?

And I said, look, it'll be a little bit of fun.

And then, mate, I've got to say, white-line fever kicked in slightly.

And then, as I threw that ball, man, it connected with that beautiful little kid.

And I can remember, you know, little Finn Tunnicliffe saying, he's hit a baby.

And I thought...

And God rest his soul.

Rupert, such a sweet young boy, didn't see it coming.

I'm more than a touch embarrassed about it.

But to me, it sums up you, because who else can pull together groups of people with something

as inane as dodgeball and make it so much fun?

And it's a credit to you, because you're trying to get off...

You're saying, I'm not drinking anymore, and I don't catch up with my mates at the pub,

so I'm going to invent a game of dodgeball.

Is that where it started?

Yeah, I was trying to get away from violence, Luke.

No, mate.

Look, I...

I have the tendency to be very honest, especially with someone like you.

No, I haven't filtered any of my thoughts here.

But I sat down with my therapist one day, and I said,

when I drink, I'm a bit antagonistic.

Like, I want to bait people.

And almost like, you know, like fencing, but verbally.

Which is exactly what...

Which is exactly what I loved about radio.

It was like this challenge at the front of, you know, tripping each other up and having...

You know, it's just...

It's solid banter.

And I said, when I drink, I sort of...

I do it hoping that they come back at me, right?

So it's a contest.

But, you know, many people just look at this six foot three loud mouth and just think I'm

bullying, which is fair, because in effect, I am.

And so I found myself, when I drink, trying to do this.

And my favorite people are those people that sledge me back, et cetera.

But it doesn't always go well.

And so, inadvertently, what happens is I wake up the next morning just self-loathing, going,

what did I say?

Why did I upset them?

Et cetera, et cetera.

And so I said this to them, my therapist.

And she said, so what is it that you like?

And I said, I like the competition.

And I said...

And she said, what are you trying to achieve?

And I said, I'm trying to achieve.

I'm trying to wrestle with them.

I'm trying to throw things at them and dodge things.

How do I replicate this?

And literally, in the same session, we just came up with that.

It's like, all right, you know, how do I achieve that same feeling without alcohol?

And how do I do it in a really fun, welcomed way?

So I'm just not walking around verbally throwing balls in people's faces.

And so I said, look, I want to catch up with all of my friends.

And I want to have relationships and, you know, connect with their kids who are now

getting older.

What's a really fun way to do that?

And, you know, I was acknowledging the fact that I wasn't going to be going necessarily

to pubs and all of that.

So I need to just create something.

So Elstermick Primary School is the gym across the road.

And they've been amazing.

And so three o'clock every Sunday, I just put the word out in a WhatsApp thread and

invite people along.

Unless, of course, they injure kids, in which case they never come back.

And, mate, I was surprised by how much fun it was.

I was doing this the whole time.

You're laughing and, you know, I went along with it.

I'd be good to catch up, but I'll dial in and dial out of that one.

It was just genuinely laughed at the whole time.

And I can relate to the footy environment very similar to me, where you're doing exactly

as you said, maybe not articulating it quite.

The verbal jousting and the sledging, man, it always came back with interest.

And then you worked out after you'd finished.

I did when you finished retiring.

You're saying these incredibly offensive things to people that they hadn't had any

context with.

And they were like, you're just a dick, you know.

And so I sort of got the sort of the intro into radio as well.

And I enjoyed that because for me, I was on air with guys like Mick Malloy and Will Anderson,

who that's their world champions.

And so I just love being cannon fodder because it was like, have a go and then watch it come

back with interest.

And that was the most enjoyable part about it for me because I love it.

I love it.

But I realize I love it when it comes your way because I find it incredibly funny, particularly

when it's guys like that who are highly intelligent.

And Eddie McGuire, by the way, world class, who I did radio with, world class.

If you get in a verbal battle with Ed, he's as good as anyone has ever seen before.

Unbelievable.

So I suddenly found myself as the lightweight of all time, just getting them back.

But you're right.

If you're then around people who don't feel that.

You can actually.

You can genuinely upset people.

So I totally get where you're coming from.

But dodgeball is such an amazing way to find a way.

Well, look, it was my leadership 101.

The first subject for running Tribe, my business, was watching my mouth in exactly that capacity

because, you know, we have 75 staff in five cities across the globe.

And not only is every.

One diverse in ages, but cultures like there is dramatic differences.

And, you know, we've got teams, we've got 25 people in the Philippines, in India, you

know, as well as obviously America and the UK and, but they're pretty similar.

But then, you know, I, uh, they don't give a shit about my past.

They don't understand that I was getting paid a lot of money for shock value.

And I'm actually in that moment destabilizing.

It's just highly offensive.

And.

It's inappropriate, you know, the biggest, the biggest journey for me is unlearning everything

up until that point, which was, where is that actual line?

Because we were paid well, you weren't, you were always the, you know, the good cop, the

nice one.

And you always the, oh, wouldn't have thought so, Ed, you know, wouldn't have thought so

Mick, you know, you, you always the one who was, um, playing a straight bat, which is

a critical piece in that sandwich.

You know, uh, for me, I, I was affirmed and, and, and, and being sleazy, offensive, um, you

know, like all of these themes, um, a bit sexist, a bit racist, a bit, you know, just

right up into that line where they can't really put a finger on it, but, oh, it's naughty.

That was seen as what gripped, even if people hated listening to you saying that it was

still seen as compelling, which is the point of radio.

And do you look back?

Do you look back now and think, God, I, I regret any of that at all?

Or do you think, nah, that was the role I played at the time and I'm totally comfortable

with, with it?

Nah, not comfortable with any of it.

I mean, you know, I've got a 13 year old and a 10 year old, both girls and no, you

know, this hard generation as parents right now, it's the, it's the toughest, I think

it's the toughest 180 any generation has had to do in such a short amount of time in

terms of how the world is evolving to what is and is not appropriate well i never saw you jill

sorry i never saw you you know we we always crossed over in the halls and but you you are

mr nice guy of media and and always full of energy and and a smile and you know we know how um

competitive that industry can be but i never saw your reputation as being the sort of combative

sleazy nasty guy at all on here i mean is that is that a you may be being a bit harsh on yourself

possibly but there was definitely you know when you're on air sort of 10 hours a week there's

there's a bit of everything and my point being there doesn't need to be and you know that's

that's our role as much as it's it's it's tough for for parents now to unlearn what their parents

um the environment i mean you know in primary school can you remember the jokes used to say

in primary school like there was like

there was blonde jokes irish jokes aboriginal jokes um you know people with mental you know

disabilities like it was just that was called humor right that's how it sounded it was a setup

and then a punch line and you just heard it from your uncles and and all these parties

now when i sit at the footy and i got my dad on one side right and i got my 13 year old on the

other my daughter mate like that's a whole world difference there's a lot of stuff that comes up

now that i never want her to hear and she would be absolutely fall off the chair if she ever heard

it and she never has and it's my job in that sort of bridge to unlearn and become aware of all that

to know that that's inappropriate and then ensure and shelter this next generation um and that's

bloody tough i mean it's taking a you know all you do is step over the line constantly not knowing

where it's moving and how it's moving even with the best intention yeah and is that

part of you know you had this incredible career in media and you look back and i you know you read

the highlights out in the opening paragraph but a national drive is an enormously high profile

shift in uh in australian media hosting getaways is you know it's hugely high profile and then you

do sydney breakfast radio uh albeit you come after hamish and andy and kyle and jackie so your timing

was was courageous if i could if i could put it that way but did that sort of did you maybe not

feeling overly comfortable with that was that part of it that was part of it that was part of it that

was that why you then went and said you know what i'm going into business was that a conscious thing

or did it did it just happen in terms of leaving radio was it conscious because i felt like it

wasn't appropriate it was more the fact that i was axed luke

they didn't want me bro

no no it's not it's none of that um it's none of that but uh a little bit of some um

no i you know i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i

i was signed for a three-year contract to replace kyle and jackie when they were retiring when i

turned up turns out they were just going around the corner and and then they posted the new address

and all their friends went well we'll go over there instead and that was where the listeners

went so we did a year of that and that was brilliant radio but we were sort of talking

into an echo chamber i think there was only about 30 of the listeners left um and then the year

after i worked with emma friedman we did a brilliant sort of afternoon show and then the

next year of the contract

because you know kudos to them they they uh they you know they even though i wasn't on air

in the third year i was out there working um with the brands and the clients of the radio

network because i've just always loved marketing right i love the sales part of it and how you

integrate those marketing messages in through radio so i was always liking those sort of behind

the scenes meetings and so in the third year that's exactly what i did i would help brands like

i don't know

jetstar or mcdonald's or disney you know come up with these ideas that they've got to promote a

film or how do we layer that through our radio shows across the network and so i loved that and

then i had some ideas of my own and uh since i was still getting paid uh i invested i invested

in starting them and did you do that sales role because you had a contract and you you know

guaranteed money which out of the felt that you needed to do that did you do that because you had

to justify that money or was that something that the network said hey hey jules we got to pay you

we need you to do another role how did that work that's a good point well look they were going to

pay me regardless so they may as well give me something to do but um it was awesome i mean it

was absolutely brilliant i loved it uh flying around the country and running sort of jam

sessions with wade kingsley who's just a brilliant um creative who is working you know between um

fans that came to our big radio network and the on-air teams and so it was about sort of finding

that common ground which if you look at tribe is not dissimilar you know one side you've got all

these brands like disney and jet star and and and the like and then on the other side you've got

creators and the creators in radio are obviously on-air announcers like you know the background

that i've had but in my world i loved visual i've always loved the visual expression

uh pics and clips and it was through my radio time that i actually got as excited about um

the social brand and and the social expression of all of our content and our personalities like

sophie and fifi box doing that visually um through our socials that actually was able to build

a really close and an intimate relationship with our fans

and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point

And this is that moment where we were starting to discover in the industry that people that

liked our radio shows weren't just listeners, they were fans.

So you could give them content via any medium, whether it was a pic of Sophie doing something

crazy and she's caught mid-action and I write caption this and you get 10,000 comments,

none of those people might not have listened to that show that day.

So they're not listeners, they're fans of the brand.

And so that's when I sort of saw this opportunity to be able to, I suppose, connect brands with

all types of content creators, just not radio creators.

That's an incredibly innovative thing that you've done, Jules, to transition your skill

set in that way and try to be a founder and a CEO of a business now for a decade and owners

employing over 70 people in countries all around the world.

You've had some of the biggest brands in the world connect and collaborate.

Tell us about that story.

And that's a huge shift of gear, isn't it?

From what you're doing day to day.

What's that been like the last decade?

Oh, terrifying and sloppy and bad and embarrassing.

And I mean, that's the nature, you know, I set out to create a marketing tech company

and I'd never studied marketing and you F all about tech and I'd never run a company.

So that's the nature.

I've always sort of been.

Okay, sort of tackling things that are terrifying and then I don't mind being a bit shit, you

know, not that embarrassed being there asking stupid questions because I'm like, well, you

know, you don't know until you know, so tell me and it's just like that for 10 years, but

it's one of the things that's so endearing and we all love about you.

Anyone that comes in, you just are completely transparent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there's nothing that is a no-go zone for you.

Is that you from a young age or is it something that you've worked on?

I mean, you mentioned you work with a therapist.

Again, not many people start the conversation of a podcast with that.

Everything's on the table with you.

Is that just you?

Let me think.

I probably lack the skill to be able to repackage it, really.

I mean, I probably maybe I have.

I'm on the spectrum at that point where I can't filter it like I just it's an inability.

But look, I do believe through the work so early on in the REACH Foundation and being around Jim and Paul Curry, who directed and was the brains behind Jim's documentary and also founded REACH Foundation with Jim is to, you know, they were 25 and 27 at the time when I met them.

At the very first course, you know, one of the things, yeah, they they just pressed upon us constantly.

This is a safe space to share whatever your thoughts are.

And so I didn't I reckon from probably 14, 15, I learned very quickly I didn't have to practice on repackaging too much.

In fact, I was affirmed and and and I was rewarded for.

Being brutally honest and authentic.

And I saw the benefits and no real need to, you know, like if I I'll cry anywhere, I'll just fall in a heap and cry like that's an example.

Like we were that was a good thing.

We saw that always as a good thing in REACH.

Like if you were just don't hold on to it, doesn't matter where you are, just let it all go and ugly cry.

And so that's just sort of an example where in that environment, if you're feeling emotional or whatever.

You're struggling.

You would just say that quickly because people could help you quickly.

And and the same with, I suppose, me that vulnerability doesn't scare me is my point.

There was always rewards to vulnerability.

So me telling you, you know, that I see a therapist or, you know, I struggle with, you know, the black dog at times or, you know, you can't really use that against me.

It's only a superpower to be able to lay that on the table because only good things usually come from it.

Yeah.

And that's not an easy thing for it.

For a lot of people, Jules, that's why I love you sharing it, because for a lot of people spend their whole life with a mask on and their whole life repackaging to use your your terms.

And, you know, to go back to to that day, you walk into REACH and you're a kid with a fair bit of attitude, from what I understand, for those who don't really understand the legacy of, you know, Paul Currie, maybe Jim Stines, perhaps more in this conversation.

Can you describe Jim to people that didn't have the privilege of meeting him and what that impact has been on you?

Absolutely.

I mean, the REACH Foundation for those, you know, maybe interstate is, you know, it exists and it's thriving today, you know, without the leaders that that that gave birth to it in the early days and even the the rung of leaders that followed them, which was myself and, as you know, Sammy Cav, who was also in that room at the first session.

Sammy Cav is a brilliant, probably the best brain in audio, in my opinion, in the country.

You know, worked behind the scenes with Hamish and Andy for 16 years and he's worked with you plenty, Darcy, you know him extremely well.

Well, he and I were in the very first course at Presentation College, Windsor, in some sort of small room at the back of a convent.

So this was the very first presentation Jim and Paul had ever done.

You're in the very first class.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I walked up to Sam and he was wearing a turtleneck that his mum had knitted.

And I said...

Nice turtleneck.

And I meant it because it was grunge in those days and ugly shit was cool.

The verbal jousting started.

Had you not met him before?

Did you not know him at all at that stage?

No.

No, no, no.

And all my best friends right now are from, mainly from Reach, from those early days because we went through such an experience together.

It was like...

So that was the first...

So basically what Jim and Paul did was...

Jim was a teacher.

Right.

Just innately.

But he also did teaching rounds at my high school, De La Salle.

And so he also used to run leadership sessions for young people through sport.

Sport camps.

And then you had Paul Curry, who was the other end of the spectrum, who did it through drama.

So he worked with teenagers and talked about leadership and overcoming adversity and all this really, really...

I mean, it was groundbreaking.

It was groundbreaking work at the time because all you had is sort of, I suppose, scouts or church groups.

But, you know, to talk about your feelings and all this sort of stuff was really innovative.

And whereas now, you know, it's almost part of the curriculum.

But so they sort of met each other and did a course together and said, we should work with teenagers together and combine a bit of sport and drama.

And it was phenomenal.

So they went out and, you know, to promote this five-week course.

And because he had been doing teaching rounds at De La Salle, he came there to do a session.

And I just tore the session apart and tried to sabotage it.

And, you know, Jim sort of pulled me up, slapped me across the face verbally, but also with a bit of a pat on the back.

And I thought, this guy's, you know, these guys are actually pretty cool.

And I couldn't make him cry.

So they've got some grit.

And I turned up to the course.

And as I say, that was the very first course.

And Sam was there.

And, you know, that was 2014.

That was 25 years ago.

And what sort of ended up happening from there was I just became so infatuated with Jim.

I was just like, far out.

This guy's like connected.

He's positive.

He's and also Paul Curry as well is, you know, still one of my best mates.

I just loved what Jim was doing, how he could command a room.

And so I would wag.

Wednesday sport and ring him up and say, you know, I have a day off.

Can I come and follow you around to some rotary club or whatever?

So, you know, I'd just go with him to teacher sessions or he would be talking out at psychiatric units.

He would be going to schools and I'd be sitting at the back, just scribbling everything, just wanting to be exactly like him until I could write these scripts that he would say.

And then I would sort of run a bit of my own sessions until after a while, you know, I was traveling.

I was in Australia or mainly Victoria with my own valiant Chrysler and a speaker and running these workshops for 18 year olds when I was about 17.

So the nose ring and bleach blonde hair and I was a bogan and I'd go out to these things and crack open the group and, you know, there'd be 150 kids crying and we'd all be sort of having this really powerful experience together.

And I went, fuck, this stuff is this is revolutionary.

And it's actually in its simplicity.

In its simplicity.

So powerful.

Powerful, you know, create a safe space, give them the permission to say and be positive and then have people that are just a little bit older than them be cool and positive.

And just that, which the scouts have done and church groups and people have done for millennia, that is so good and positive.

Whereas the flip is people are a little bit older than you that are negative.

Well, you'll just go that way.

Yeah.

It's incredible to hear you describe it that way, Jules.

And I know the story, but to hear the words come out of your mouth.

And I also had the great part.

I don't know Paul Curry, but I had the great pleasure of playing footy against Jim Stines and knowing Jim for many, many years.

And we're all a bit the same.

We all just were completely full of admiration for Jim.

To come from Ireland, you know, play our game as a pioneer in that space, but not only play it, to play it better than anyone else at a point in time.

And do that just out of pure grit.

Like you said, he's got a bit of grit.

He had grit on the footy field that you couldn't possibly imagine.

Like he played the same role I play, but he was like an elite, elite marathon runner.

So he was as hard.

It was the same role as you played, but you just played a bit better.

Played a bit better.

Correct.

And you know what's fun?

Every time I saw him, we played in this one Friday night game in the MCG, Bulldogs against Melbourne.

I'd only been two or three years in.

And I'm playing on Jimmy.

And I'm absolutely reeling.

Because what he would look at you and go, you can't run with me.

There's no way you're going to run.

And he sort of had this smile on his face.

And that Irish accent would come out.

But in the last quarter, got to a boundary throw in.

And he sort of half nudged me in the back.

But in fairness, I took a dive.

I've never conceded this to Jim ever.

But I took a dive.

And I got this free kick.

And I kicked the winning goal.

And he went ballistic.

He went off his brain.

And every time I saw him, no matter how many, it would have been 50 times, you're fucking cheated.

You're fucking cheated.

He'd said it every time.

Every single time I saw him.

And with a smile on his face.

But he revolutionized the game and the way it was played.

And you thought, God, if I could ever have that ability to run like Jim,

imagine how good you could play the game.

And he played 260-plus games, still a record, Jules, in a row.

And he had broken ribs.

The Melbourne players always talk about Jimmy to have this injury that would keep someone out for eight weeks.

And he'd have all the Irish healers in and the Gaelics.

Incense would be going.

And he'd have all these things.

And he'd get out and play.

And play every single week.

And so I can imagine that in a room of young teenagers, that presence would have been picked up pretty quickly, I suspect.

You're right in what you say.

It's the presence.

Because none of us knew what the hell he was doing in between reach sessions.

I don't follow footy and I never followed it then, right?

I didn't even have a concept.

I mean, I turned up to all of his award things and they said, all right, he's played 12 years of football.

Without missing a game as a ruck.

And I'm like, oh, yeah.

So do I get on the TV?

Like, it was like, I didn't even really know.

I just knew we were going to the Elephant and Wheelbarrow afterwards.

An Irish pub and celebrating.

But no concept.

But two stories about him running.

One of them is, can you remember who told me this?

I was out on the, the old days, on the beer.

And someone said that the day after you won the Brownlow medal, you know, the highest individual honour in AFL,

they were driving to work at like 6am and he was out running.

The day after?

Yeah.

So he's down in St Kilda, Beacon Sealed Parade.

He's out training.

Like, he's on track running the day after.

So, and then the other one is what he used to do, because I'd, you know, when I was backpacking,

I went over and visited his family and, you know, he'd get like Craggy Stone, Dublin,

like, you know, these mountains.

And he'd just go up into this drizzle and just disappear.

And he would say to his mum, Mum, I need you to pick me up at the top of that road at like 11am.

Like, do not be late.

And so he'd be running up this hill, hoping that his mum's going to, you know, plod along and save him.

And she'd be like, lose track of time.

And he'd be like, think about what he's running in, like, you know, crappy shorts or whatever.

And he's just running uphill as high as he can.

And it's just blowing.

A gale, you know, waiting for his mum.

And he would just keep going and going and going.

Like, he was just trying to find the most painful, you know, hurt locker, end of the road wall.

And he would always just whinge because she wouldn't be there and he'd have to either keep running or turn around and run back.

But he was massively hardcore.

But phenomenal.

And a real boy.

You know, there was a great playfulness to him.

Funnily enough, towards the...

Before he even found out.

That he had cancer.

And he would have been...

So he passed away at 45.

So he's not dissimilar to our age.

But he found out at about 42.

So it was about three years.

But up until that point, he really had, I think, lost a little bit of...

Lost a bit of perspective, you know.

And he's the first to admit this.

But, you know, he really...

He really had got caught...

He was caught and addicted to the busyness of life.

You know, the gift and curse of Jim Stines was that he could see potential in everything.

The problem was as soon as he saw it, he had to realise it.

So he'd have an idea for a primary school or his own high school that was, you know, alternative teaching and education.

And then it'd be like, right, that's my project.

And then the next day he'd see someone and go, you should be this.

I'm going to invest in you.

And then before you know it, he just was overrun and stressed.

And he was...

He was the chairman of the Melbourne Footy Club trying to save that, which he did.

And he was running reach.

And, you know, he's a father and a husband.

And it was just...

It was spread too thin.

Yeah.

And that's interesting.

You know, I crossed over him a fair bit in that period.

And you could just see how, as you said, all worthwhile, you know, to go back and save his footy club when it was about to go under.

Because everyone turned and went, Jim will do it.

Jim will have the capacity.

And he's the one person that can unite everyone when, you know, the factions are going at each other.

I didn't quite understand that, you know, you would have, just what toll that was taking.

It has been just beautiful to see Matisse and Tien and his two beautiful kids.

Just to see the spectacular people they've become.

And Sam, his wife, is just a super person and a great part of that.

So then, Jules, your great friend and your great mentor, he gets ill and you saw him through that period.

And you imagine the grit.

I remember chatting to him one day.

He'd had his 36th operation or something.

And I remember him saying, I'll fix this.

Once I know what it is, I can find a way.

I can fix it.

Just that determination.

But if you haven't seen Every Heart Beats True, the Jim Stine story that Jules, you need to go and see it.

Even if you've never had any context around Jim Stine.

And now I look back, Jules, and I didn't realise with your film background, it is just a brilliant, brilliant piece of work.

Tell us about what that was like.

Well, look, you know, we're not…

When he told us that he had a really big lump and it was cancerous, his schedule cleared pretty quick.

Because I wasn't able to get very close to him.

Like, I remember he was the best man at my wedding and trying to get him for a fitting for the suit.

He made me feel like shit.

He was like, fuck, you know, this is…

I'm busy and I'm like, this is really special, mate, you know.

But as I say, he lost perspective.

He got busy and, you know, there were really meaningful things around him.

And he was not acknowledging them or soaking them up, if I was to be brutally honest.

So I, you know, I came back from my honeymoon and the next day straight into his house and he told me.

And so, yeah, I said, all right, how are you getting to that appointment?

How are you getting from that appointment, et cetera?

And so, you know, I was able to just…

I had the capacity to spend a bit of time.

And then in doing that, you know…

I'm a content creator, you know.

What I do now in my business is, you know, there was no iPhones or smartphones.

It was like I had a little Casio in my pocket which filmed digital video.

But no one, you know, like I was doing selfie videos, right, blogs or vlogs, you know.

And I would just film funny shit that was happening with him, you know, coming out, being drugged by the, you know, by the anesthetist, getting to say weird shit.

You know, his bum hanging out of those horrible doctor's gowns.

Like…

It was just a couple of idiots behind the scenes of that.

Did he appreciate it?

Did he know that this was…

He knew what was going on, do you think?

No, no, no.

I didn't have an outcome.

Yeah.

No, I was just shooting it like I shoot everything.

I've never looked at any of the video back.

It's just that after a while, after a while, Paul Curry, who's a film director, you know, who created all these amazing drama workshops for teenagers.

He's been, you know, creating films.

And he's highly successful.

He's doing the biopic for Robbie Williams, you know, at the moment.

And so, yeah, he was like, let's pull together some of your content with some interviews.

And that's how it began.

I mean, obviously, Jim was still around.

So then we could actually hire a proper cameraman.

And it was a combination of sort of my behind the scenes interviews and us actually filming some stuff.

And we decided to start to…

What's that word?

Chronicle.

Chronicle.

Yeah.

Chronicle his battle, which was just getting more and more absurd, you know, when he started to drink his own urine.

And, like, he was trying everything.

I mean, this is the beauty of him.

He tried everything.

I've got footage that's never seen the light of day where he's over in Jakarta with, you know, people like weird, weird.

Alternative shit.

And anyway, we followed this.

And when we packaged the movie together, we all believed that he was going to win and fight this.

And so when he sat down to watch, what in the end became his funeral celebration that he was able to witness.

I mean, who gets to experience that?

They're sitting there, getting to watch all of the beautiful people and, you know, celebration of their life, their impact.

It was amazing.

It was a really beautiful thing.

And then, you know, he passed away in the end.

And we never believed it.

You know, we were going to keep filming.

And, yeah, so it was…

I mean, it is a really powerful story.

You know, we played it again on Stan.

It's on Stan at the moment.

We played it again a couple of days after the Melbourne Footy Club won the premiership.

And I just rang the guys and said, mate, you guys are allowed to play this again.

The Melbourne people will love.

They'll love seeing this, especially how far it's come.

Because it means so much to Jim.

You know, he did the debt demolition where they raised money to save the club.

And now they're winning a premiership.

Brutal for Jim never to be able to see it.

But obviously he's up there and he is.

And you think of his legacy, Jules, you know, alive and well in the person you are and Sam Kavanagh.

And the Reach alumni are everywhere.

And they're these incredible people that have got that same spirit that you've got.

I watched that two nights after, you know, Melbourne won that grand final again.

And, you know, I'm a bit the opposite of you, Jules.

My wife always says, you went to boarding school.

And I think they removed your tear ducts at boarding school.

They don't work that well.

But that gets me.

That one, the older I get, perhaps I'm getting more like you, Jules.

And you sit down and just what a special person he was.

And then I see the legacy, him giving Max Gorney's first jumper, who was the captain of that side.

And Max, you know, his first couple of years was all at sea.

But Jim saw something special in Max that perhaps others didn't at that stage.

And the Reach, you know, no pun intended, of that person and the legacy that lives on through his own kids and so many others.

It's just a special, special thing.

And I love hearing, as I said, you know, if it's on Stan, which you just told me it is, you know, have a look at it.

Because it will inspire you in a really profound way, for sure.

Well done, mate.

Yeah.

It is a beautiful story.

But kudos to Paul Curry.

He's the thematic genius in threat.

Reading that story together.

But you're right about the alumni, about Reach.

And it's in such incredible shape at the moment.

You know, I listened to Fergus Watts on this very podcast.

You know, Fergus's story is very similar to mine in a sense.

He came a little bit further on.

And, you know, I was able to spend some time with Fergus at Reach when we were younger.

He's now the CEO.

But, you know, same thing.

You know, he was a bit of a smartass.

He's at school and Jim's come out.

He's tried to challenge him.

And before you know it, you know, you're young.

And it's the old switcheroo where all of a sudden you're the biggest supporter of the presenters

as opposed to the one pulling them down.

Jim was just the master at that flip.

Hey, Jules.

It's been a great pleasure in recent times to connect with you in a space that I really love

and am passionate about, Let It Connect, where we're forming these bespoke groups.

And, you know, your name just kept coming up.

People kept saying, I want to connect with Jules Lahn.

And I know what you're like.

It was great to pick up the phone.

You said, I'm in.

No need to sell any further.

I'm in.

I did say, how much is it going to, how much damage?

I got no money.

Actually, you did say that.

Yeah.

In fairness, I love your brutal honesty.

I'm in, but I'm not paying anything.

But I love the group that you're in.

And if you don't mind me sharing, I'm keen to get your thoughts.

Mike Mansfield, who played a couple hundred games for Geelong, is a great story.

Great human being, Mike, in every sense.

Hunter Johnson.

Johnson, who's, you know, I see in a similar way.

What Hunter's doing with the Man Cave is just brilliant.

I had the great pleasure to talk to Hunter in this space.

Michelle Nolan is an extraordinary individual who's at the MCC in HR.

Mim Bartlett is just a champion.

And, again, I've spoken to Mim in this space before.

And she's just an incredible person in her own right.

I need another hour to sum her up.

And Jason Nichols was a great friend who actually helps me bring this together

through his work as the CEO of Tampa Betting.

So I love the diversity.

You're bringing people together, Jules.

How have you found it?

It's extraordinary.

And, again, it's so powerful in its simplicity.

I mean, what you've done is you've assembled, you know, like-minded, hungry,

open-minded individuals who don't have a fixed mindset.

And then you've got an incredible facilitator in Stacey Moorlang.

And Stacey...

I've known for many years.

She is, you know, a superstar lacrosse player.

Like, played in the World Cups.

And how did you connect with Stacey?

Stacey was in one of our groups.

She was signed up and joined one of the groups.

And everyone who meets Stacey falls in love with Stacey.

She's just incredible.

And we convinced her.

And we just every day we go, are you happy?

Can we make sure you're happy?

Because we want you to stay around.

And she's doing a great...

I'm glad to hear that.

It's nice to get that feedback of...

And we get it everywhere.

She's remarkable, isn't she, in the person she is.

So, yeah, she's facilitating the group.

And so, yeah.

And, you know, in essence, we have a number of themes that we touch on each week.

You know, we get together every couple of weeks for about an hour and a half.

And it might be, you know, one week on vision or today was curiosity.

And I had a session just before this chat today.

And we had a guest, Dr. Michael Hewitt-Gleeson, who has co-founded the...

The School of Thinking.

And, you know, ordinarily what we might do is we might take turns.

So, last week I sort of battered up a hurdle that I was struggling with.

Like, what's a challenge in my life when it comes to leadership?

It's all under the theme of leadership.

And, you know, you're able to unpack that.

And for me it was, you know, I've done tribe for 10 years now.

I usually change...

Careers every five or 10.

This one's taking this sort of...

This adventure is taking a little bit longer.

It hasn't worked out exactly as I thought it would.

And each time I sort of feel like I'm getting to the finish line, the ribbon moves again.

And I'm just...

I'm fatigued, you know, despite the fact that we've never been in a better position

and I've never been more excited.

So, I almost need to just, you know, reconcile some of the past

and then take a deep...

Take a deep breath and then start the next leg of this journey,

which is exactly what this has helped me do.

You know, get that...

Ignite that fire in my belly.

So, that was what I would bat up and say,

has anyone got advice?

And then these brilliant diverse minds will start to, you know,

offer thoughts and feelings and, you know, have you tried this?

And someone, you know, once told me this.

And so, you've got all these practical tools that you can take out,

start to implement and then come back in the next session.

Yeah, mate, thanks for that brilliant description.

I've always wrestled with trying to...

I tell you, you did as good a job as possible.

And have you found that that's got real-life applications for you

where you genuinely go, I can take that and use it in my day-to-day?

Yeah, it's practical stuff.

It's not...

I mean, yes, there's a bit of...

I suppose there's a bit of theory there.

Like today, we did some brilliant thing with Dr. Michael, you know,

a guest speaker who's sort of breaking down GBB, which is...

Actually, is it BGG?

GBB.

No, it's GBB.

Good, better.

Yeah, good, bad, better.

Yeah.

And I won't do it justice, but, you know, in leadership

and in coming up with ideas, the toughest thing is trying

to escape your own point of view.

And it's just a very simple process that rather than you coming

up with preconceived ideas.

And so, the concept today was like, you know, someone's come up

with the idea to take all seats out of buses, right?

And so, what you do is we went around the group and talked about,

like, what are the good things about that?

Oh, okay, well, there's less plastic in the seats.

Oh, people can stand up.

You know, you can get more people, so the prices are down.

And, you know, you go through all the good things, right?

And you scrape the bottom of the barrel.

And even at the bottom, you start to realise there's more good things

that I wouldn't have thought of.

And you've got different people's, you know, mindset and suggestions.

They're things that you would never think of.

So, that just shows that there's no hierarchy of ideas.

And then you go, what are the bad things about?

And you go through the bad things, right?

What about people who have disabilities or people that are old?

And you smash it that way.

And then you go, better, all right?

What is a better idea than that, encompassing a bit of the good and the bad?

And where that thinking takes you is phenomenal.

Like, it's amazing.

So, you start to go, oh, okay, well, you know,

saving money is a really good thing, but some people need to sit down.

So, maybe some buses don't have them and some buses do have seats.

Or maybe the bus is broken.

And that's just a really simple, you know, archaic or crude example.

But if you apply that to so many other things,

rather than jumping in with the negatives

and then annihilating the spirit of the discussion,

because, you know, if the CEO goes, that's a bad idea,

like, brainstorm over.

So, it just forces a discipline there.

And I just think it's remarkably powerful.

And I look forward to,

you know, using that more and more to get out of my own way.

Yeah, and what an incredible person, you know, Michael Hewitt Gleeson is.

And you go back in his history on the school of thinking.

And it's what we're loving, Jules, as that community is growing,

that shared life hacks, that shared opportunity.

As you said, it's a gift now, isn't it, to be able to –

it's an uncommon thing to be able to share and debate.

And, you know, cancel culture has become so prevalent now.

We don't even take the time off to think of walking in someone else's shoes.

And so, yeah, we love – you know,

it can be lonely, can't it?

You're CEO of Tribe.

You're the decision-maker.

A lot of people –

Well, I'm not.

I'm not.

I mean, I'm the founder, but I do have a CEO.

Okay.

And I should probably acknowledge him.

I let the first one go past, Luke, because I really like the sound of it.

And then your honesty kicked in, didn't it?

You couldn't help yourself.

Mandatory disclosure, Anthony Skurskas.

Join me right at the start.

And he is absolute – he's a phenomenal leader.

And he and I, our partnership through Tribe over the years

has been probably the greatest reward from this whole venture.

It's been amazing, but not easy, you know.

As everyone will say, a marriage is tough.

But, you know, running a business together is incredibly challenging

and takes a lot of communication, more investment than my marriage, I reckon.

Were you friends beforehand?

No.

No, we won't be afterwards.

We'll be there.

Hey, Jules, I love it.

No, joke, joke.

Yeah, we fair.

He just drove into a pole listening to this podcast.

But so many people have had partnerships before that go off a cliff.

And, you know, I've been in that situation before, and it's awful.

But when it's good – and when it's good, you still have – as you said,

you have to work on hundreds of things, you know,

maybe more than, as you said, your own relationship.

But the reward –

The rewards in it are spectacular.

I mean, you can share a passion and build it together.

That's as much joy for me as doing anything in that space.

It's brilliant.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

But like everything, it takes investment,

and it takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable, you know.

We've had plenty of really highly awkward conversations over the years,

and it's the only way through, you know.

If you don't, you don't get to the other side,

and you can become pretty stagnant pretty quickly,

like in any relationship.

No one could be more comfortable in the awkward than you, I reckon, Jules.

You would be world-class.

I just – I know you've put them all out there.

As you've heard in this conversation, it's as brutal an honesty as you ever get.

We love – I love sitting down with people like you

and tapping into your thinking and the diversity of thinking

and learnt so much in doing this.

It's been my favourite thing ever in media to learn from people like you,

and we're seeing these traits that are coming through,

starting with self-leadership, Jules.

What does that mean to you?

Look, I think I'm a better self-leader than I am a group leader.

I think I'm quite judgmental when it comes to group leadership.

The things I expect from myself, you know, I can control and deliver,

although I am…

I am pretty hard on myself.

But I do struggle, you know, with judging team members.

I think I'm good from a lead-by-example group leader.

And when I'm excited, I think I can sell a vision.

However, if I'm not aligned and I'm not in line,

I can flow, I can have that opposite effect.

And that's one of the things I'm challenging myself on at the moment

through A Leader Connect, your program, which is, you know,

I'm a good natural leader, but when the going gets tough for me

or the company, if I'm not in a good space,

I struggle to have the discipline or the rigour or the framework.

I'm just very emotional.

But in self-leadership,

I'm really…

I've had some tough years.

I had tough years, obviously, through COVID, like many of us.

But I've come out far stronger from Melbourne lockdown.

And I have a, you know, insatiable appetite to experience things.

And so I'm really leaning into scary stuff that, you know,

I find is the quickest way I can access pride.

You know, pride for me is my drug.

You know, I want to be proud of myself.

Guilt for me can just…

Or self-loathing, which is why drinking booze.

You know, I just would…

After a while, I'd just be mouthing off or just, you know,

I just didn't like that version of myself.

And I couldn't actually cut back.

I was not finding the balance there.

So I just, you know, as Sammy Cav said, you know,

it's a lot easier making one decision than lots of hard ones.

So rather than trying to go tonight do I drink or tomorrow night,

just like one decision and commit to it.

How long is it?

How long has it been?

Over six months.

You coping all right?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's nights like I'm getting frustrated and pent up

that I want to sort of blow off some steam

and just sort of have that escapism.

But crystal meth is, you know…

You'll have to cut that out.

Surely not.

Is it a lifetime choice, do you think?

Do you think you just give it up?

I don't know.

I know it seems stupid,

but having mid-strengths and light beers actually sort of made it worse

because then when I couldn't get them, I'd have heavies

and I wasn't match fit.

So I'd end up getting a little bit more piss

than if I was just always drinking heavies.

I know it seems silly.

So I think I just struggle with that.

And no, I immediately felt better.

A lot of fear, anxiety of like, oh, what could I say?

Or, you know, what would happen?

You know, that lack of control, all of that lifted

and I immediately…

I immediately felt more control.

And then I had a greater capacity, you know, in my life.

So I've been, you know, I'm really scaring myself with,

like I want to do a ultra event in Catherine Gorge,

which is like 2K swim, 4.8K kayak,

then there's a 10K, you know, run up a cliff,

then 40K on a bike, 18K mountain bike, and then a 10K run.

And I'm nowhere near that.

So I've run marathons,

and I do that regularly, but I've never swum.

So I've started with Johnny Van Wees.

You know, I remember…

I remember Johnny for sure.

He's a great guy.

And Tammy, his sister's the legendary swimmer as well.

So Johnny's going to…

That's a fair training partner, mate.

That's a high bar to start with.

He's amazing.

Well, I've just…

I haven't swum since I was 14.

And so I'm swimming and then starting spin classes

and, you know, soon I'll be shopping for Lycra.

Well, mate, it's a great…

That is a great answer to self-leadership.

And I love hearing you talk because it's just…

Not many people can have the thought and then action

and say, this is not helping me.

Very few have got the discipline to follow through

and answer it the way you did.

It's a pretty profound thing.

We see leaders are really conscious, Jules,

around their impact on people positively.

And that links into what you just said.

You felt like, you know,

your lifestyle wasn't helping you impact people positively

and you're waking up the next day with regret.

When you walk into Tribe or you're at home

or you're…

Yeah.

Whatever event,

how do you go about impacting people positively?

It's funny.

All I…

My brain just takes me to all the negative impact.

Like, I just, you know, being harsh on myself,

I just think, God, I could be better there and better there.

How do I positively impact?

Well, I genuinely believe that people should have a big swing.

You know, I get super excited by speaking to people

who are a bit hungry.

Like, that to me is…

That to me is something I'm super passionate about,

which is that sort of 18 to 22-year-old, you know,

where you're out of school

and you're trying to look at the big wide world.

For me, I love that innate coaching, you know,

when I speak to them and I'm like,

what are you going to do?

Are you going to travel overseas or I do…

You know, like, I just love that coaching.

And so I think when I speak to friends who are like,

you know,

what do I do next?

I get…

I think I positively impact them by, you know,

helping them strategise, you know, write up a plan,

be clear on their vision to confront limiting beliefs

and then start.

See, I see you just in the times that, you know,

we've encountered each other, you have that impact on everyone

just instantaneously in my mind because of,

you know,

and people will hear that comes through in this today,

that the humour and the fun and the authenticity,

like there's nothing fake about you ever.

And in particularly crossing in the corridors of media,

which can be incredibly fake,

it's refreshing or fronting up to a game of dodgeball

and seeing the joy on your face.

I mean, that to me is just,

I don't think you even understand the impact you have

because you're unique.

You know, not many people have your attitude to life.

I think it comes out of you whether you like it or not.

But creating and sharing a vision,

Tribe's a huge vision when you think about

what you've done with that.

How have you gone about trying to share that

and bring that to fruition with other people?

Well, it's been a long journey, to be honest.

You know, originally the concept was to build

a self-serve technology platform.

The brands could jump online and write up briefs.

And then,

the creators of all walks of life,

whether they had followers on social or not,

could respond to these briefs via an app.

And so, the original vision was that at scale.

And, you know, it was difficult because, you know,

that world didn't exist yet.

And, you know, I could imagine how all of those

fundamental forces could interact and create

both different types of content.

And, you know, I think that's a real challenge.

And I think that's an opportunity.

And a problem which we could help solve

for brands and creators.

So, I think that sounded like yoga babble bullshit.

But my point is...

And does it still, does that still form part of Tribe?

So, do people still...

Because the concept is brilliant.

It absolutely is brilliant, isn't it?

Everyone who's got any business wants to try and market

and wants to influence in a way.

And it's hard at any level, even if you are Unilever

or Amazon, different scale.

But...

Is that still what happens?

People write up briefs and...

Yeah, it is.

With one key difference.

And this is where I'm...

My vision is evolving right at this moment.

Like, I'm...

Anthony, our CEO and CFO and myself are going with

Oscar Trimboli, who is an amazing executive coach,

one of the best in the country.

And we're doing a session in a couple of days.

And it really is about that recalibration of vision.

And it's sort of what I was talking about with that hurdle

at Alita Connect.

But...

It is exactly that, except that we're moving

and have moved away from self-serve.

In other words, it was meant to be a technology platform,

I suppose, like an Airbnb or an Uber,

where people...

And there was a volume play of everyone interacting

and technology was the only facilitator.

But what we've realised is, unlike Uber,

where you have one rider and one driver

and...

And it is a success if that driver gets that rider

to where they want to go.

So that's complete.

What we have is Nutella putting a brief in,

asking to celebrate Nutella through desserts.

And then you have, you know, thousands of creators

that come up with their ideas of how they want to do that

through TikTok or Instagram or Pinterest.

Someone's...

So photos and carousels, someone's through a video

and there's all these variables

and they've got different prices

and they've got different engagement.

And so it's not just one-to-one

and you're connecting them and it's a success.

In our world, there's a huge amount of variables,

like thousands.

And we were trying to achieve that purely through tech.

And what we've come to realise is,

in order for both of those parties to get what they want,

they need a layer of support.

They need some human interaction.

And so now we're a combination.

We're a combination of both tech plus team.

And when you start to work with team,

then you start to work with enterprise clients.

And so the point is,

when we used to work with just anyone who could jump on,

now we've invested nearly $20 million in our technology.

We are working with enterprise clients.

So we're working with Mars Pet Care, for instance,

and the contracts are, you know, a lot higher than what they were.

So that vision has changed

because I said, let's unlock the world's creativity.

And it was better than that.

It was about a broad play.

And now what we're doing is we're working

with a smaller amount of companies,

but it's on a far greater scale

for their global creative transformation,

which is still phenomenal and exciting.

I'm just in that recalibration of exactly what you said,

which is that vision.

And that's where it's interesting

because, you know, you've got to move with the market.

Yeah, great answer.

And, you know, I can see, you know,

where you started and like most things, don't they?

I think almost every one of these stories you tell,

there's genuinely a fork in the road moment, isn't there?

Or a few of them.

And, you know, you find the solutions

and it sounds like you're well on the path to doing that.

Thoughts on curiosity.

I know you've been discussing this with Alita Connect.

Does that resonate with you,

the idea of being curious

and approaching your learning through that curiosity?

Yeah, look, curiosity is a fun one.

And this is where I give an example.

I've been disappointed with myself the last couple of days

because we had a conversation with our board

and they brought up AI and chat GPT

and all of this stuff that we're seeing around the globe

and how many businesses are integrating that.

And we think it's going to be phenomenally valuable for our world

because there'll be content that's generated,

which makes human content even more valuable.

However, when my board brought that to me,

I found myself having cynical thoughts

and wanting to wait a little bit longer until the dust settles

because we've just spent a few years on Web 3.0 and NFTs

and NFTs, non-fungible tokens,

I still call a bit of bullshit on.

And, you know, some of your listeners will understand them,

some won't.

But it was the concept,

that all of a sudden content was going to be verified

using blockchain in a very different way

and you could have a board ape image

that's now worth millions of dollars.

And then everything just tanked.

And I was just sitting back going,

everyone's going, we need to have a position on this.

And I'm like, it doesn't make rational sense to me yet.

I just want to let this thing go.

And I didn't want to invent...

Sorry to interrupt you.

There were some extraordinary things, weren't there?

Like a piece of a digital photo,

effectively like a screenshot of, you know,

of whatever it is.

It was going for tens of millions of dollars

as an original...

Yeah, that was a non-fungible token, wasn't it?

And that world has sort of gone off a cliff, hasn't it?

Is that...

Well, it was just going to be the next big thing.

And it may be, you get a bit of a touch,

but I just find myself quite cynical, you know.

There was a few years ago, it was voice assistants,

the Amazon, the Google Homes.

You know, it was just all of a sudden,

we weren't going to be...

It wasn't going to be visual advertising.

Now everything was going to be done sonically.

And I just, my gut sort of...

I sometimes just...

I just go, nah, this is a whole bit of bullshit,

but I don't want to say it out loud

because you don't want to be the idiot that's the sceptic

and you put it in a tweet and everyone shows you

you were shit-canning the internet

and it became a real thing.

So, but I sit there and now I found myself,

when it comes to curiosity,

less curious around chat, GPT and AI.

And I'm like, oh, I'm exhausted.

I have to get across this again and everything,

which is a really bad attitude, is my point.

It's not a...

It's that cynicism isn't...

Isn't great.

It certainly isn't a good innovator.

And my title is Chief Innovation Officer.

So I'd want to be innovative.

So when you ask about curiosity, I find myself,

I am curious about certain things.

I'm certainly turned off when it's the hot, cool, new buzz term.

I find myself almost gagging on that.

But I've got to set my judgment aside

and love the exploration and imagination of what could be.

And so...

So that's my interpretation today of curiosity, Luke.

Thank you, Jules.

I read with interest today, the chief,

known as the godfather of AI,

or so termed anyway in the mainstream media.

So he may have been at it for a couple of weeks.

Who knows?

But it sounded like he had an instrumental

in Google's use of AI.

And there'll be stories like this.

He quit saying,

this is the journey out of the bottle

that will never come back in that space

and started...

Talking really, real examples around the nefarious use of AI

when it's put in wrong hands and what it can mean.

That is going to...

I'm curious.

I haven't jumped in and learned anything about it at all,

but it's something we're going to speak a lot about,

I'm sure, going forward.

You're an incredible communicator.

It's a gift that you've got

and it's sort of formed a fair part of your life.

Do you think about it?

Have you been strategic about it

in the way that you communicate?

I feel like I'm wearing a dress.

I'm about to say, do I look fat in this?

But I'm not fishing here,

but I hate the way I communicate.

I mean, I'm so encouraged by Mark Burris,

who is very scrappy and a bit messy in his delivery,

but I find him incredibly captivating.

So why do you hate the way you communicate?

I've got to cut you off there.

I mean...

Why would you sub in it?

Yeah.

I listen to communicators, you know,

even my CEO and yourself.

And when I actually listen to how people articulate,

they're just so efficient, right?

They're succinct.

And like when I used to present TV,

I would write my stuff and recite it.

Like, yes, there were off-the-cuff moments,

but for me to turn to a camera and just start talking,

oh my God, it'd be three minutes of absolute mess.

So hosting Getaway,

you'd hand-writen...

You'd write your throws and memorise them, would you?

Oh, mate, the Logie's red carpet,

you have no idea how hard I worked

to make it look like I didn't work at all.

I'd be...

So I'd know there was 14 celebrities I had to interview

and I had about 30, 40 seconds each.

And what I would do is my research,

I would write down their questions

and then I would interview my wife with a hairbrush

and I would...

I would tell her to mess with me

because I knew that I had to somehow follow up

to that next question off whatever she gave me.

And I would go through every interview 10 times

and then I'd have an open art,

which a big crane would come down,

there's people screaming

and it's like being in a washing machine trying to present.

So I would learn that days ahead.

I'd write it, script it,

every off-the-cuff was bullshit.

Like I would...

All of it.

And then I would be so confident and relaxed on the day

because I literally have already hosted it 20 times

that I'd turn up and I was so relaxed

that I had the presence of mind

to be unbelievably spontaneous and off-the-cuff.

And so there was a combination of all this magic

of like how the hell did he...

He was so relaxed.

He thought of that thing that happened in the moment

that you could never plan for

combined with all of this shit that I totally planned for.

And that was the magic, apparently.

Well, there's genius in that

because I don't see that as, you know,

watching and working alongside, you know, comedians,

they are so prepared.

And to be consistently good,

you have to be prepared, really.

And the amount of writing that goes on

to make a joke look funny and look spontaneous

is the gift, really, isn't it?

And no one, you know, you listen to Seinfeld,

I know those guys,

it's the amount of effort and work that goes,

even at my very, very,

very low level,

I talk to myself all the time

and don't realise the kids say,

Dad, you're doing it again.

And what I'm doing is, you know,

something's coming up I've got to talk about

and I am rehearsing it in my brain.

But the words start coming out loud more often than not,

which may be a sign of insanity.

But I think it's hard.

I mean, I'm not sure anyone's good enough, are they,

to do it all with that preparation.

I used to watch Ed and he'd be down the barrel

and able to have a thought,

and deliver it, and then thought, and deliver it,

and have a thought, and deliver it.

And I know he's well rehearsed.

Like, I know he's one of the great masters of, like,

do your preparation and, you know,

don't leave anything to chance and all of that.

But, you know, it's like my leadership.

You know, when it's natural and I'm chatting to you,

it feels, you know, you say I'm a good communicator.

When I'm sort of, when I have to deliver,

I find myself sloppy and I get,

you know, disappointed in having to use so,

like, my vocab is so minimal.

Like, I would feel, I wish I read for 30 years

to have vocab-like people around me where I just go,

holy shit, that was crystal.

Like, bang, bullseye.

And I'm, like, talking about warm and fuzzies

until someone just nods and goes, yeah, I get it.

You're incredibly harsh on yourself, mate,

is what I'm hearing come through the airwaves big time today.

Like, the sense of collaboration we see

is a superpower now for the leaders.

How important has that been for you

in your work life, collaborating?

Well, I was really bad at it in radio.

I mean, I came from Getaway and Getaway was,

I was the host, you had a cameraman, sounder and a producer

and the four of us would go away.

And for 10 years, I would do that.

And, you know, I was in control of my particular piece.

It was very clear defined roles.

Before that, yes,

I was working with workshops with Reach for 15 years,

but I didn't really like working with other people

because I felt like I couldn't rely on them

as much as I could rely on myself.

And so that's why I chose,

rather than running courses and camps and stuff,

that I would just go lone wolf, stereo, car, run a workshop,

rely on myself, stand up there.

And I loved that.

So when I got into radio, Sammy Kev, you know,

this is the circles around life.

When I got into radio, he was my executive producer.

And, you know, so he's known me since Reach, since we were 15.

And so he was able to just keep bashing it out of me,

like stop being a lone wolf because you've got other people on air.

And it was very difficult.

So I only achieved so much.

But then when I started Tribe, I really got it.

Like I went, oh, shit.

Because even in radio, I still had to protect myself.

Whereas in Tribe, Tribe was myself.

You know, if the 75 didn't work and it failed,

then that was a reflection of me.

So it really genuinely felt like I had to get out of my own way.

And I still struggle at times with that because, as I said,

I can be judgmental.

And I have high standards, but it's bashed the shit out of me

in terms of getting me out, you know,

just making me realise that being right is just so toxic.

You know, you've got to be kind.

You've got to, you know, and understanding all of that,

the beauty in diversity, that it's not like what you think.

And that's the point.

Whereas I always was affirmed everything I thought and did

has worked really well for me in the past.

And then I come into this and go,

well, I'm just going to keep doing that because I'm right,

because it's worked and I've done well.

But really, what got me there is not the same person

that would get me to the next stage.

And that was exactly all around collaboration.

And you say that, but yet at the same time, you know,

you pick up the phone and you're up for this collaborative

leadership group we're into called Leader Connect.

I mean, so it's not as though you're not prepared

to put yourself into that situation.

No, I know it now.

I do.

I do.

I know the value of it.

I just get in my own way.

But it's, you know, that example that I used before about like,

all right, what are the, what's good about taking all the seats

out of a bus?

What's bad about that?

Yeah.

That was really, it was a real penny that dropped during that

because, as I said, I came up with my ways and then I heard

all these others and it was undeniable.

I'd never even thought of that.

I didn't even come from that perspective.

And it was just like shit, just in that simple thing, you know.

And the more simple it is, the more overt it is, was, holy shit,

you can't do it by yourself.

If I had just done that by myself, I would have stopped there.

Whereas with them, it was just so much broader and better.

So it's amazing.

Yeah, it's a profound thing, isn't it?

I love hearing you talk about it because it's that gift, isn't it,

of having different ways and different minds and different backgrounds.

And, you know, diversity is one of those words at the moment, isn't it?

You know, for a lot of people, it's just tick that box because I have to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

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Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You mentioned Stacey in our space.

She brings a perspective I could never, ever think of or an amazing way about her that

is so far removed from anything I could ever create and think.

So, you know, getting better and better at understanding it as you get older.

But asking these two final questions to everyone, Jules, starting with an answer I think I might

know.

Who's been the greatest leader in your life?

Mick Malloy.

That one.

That was not what I was expecting.

I know.

That's the only reason I did it.

He's the best, though.

Oh, Mick Malloy is the best.

He's the greatest.

Can I, because, you know, I had the great pleasure of working with Mick

for eight years of Breakfast Radio, which anyone who knows Mick,

that is a miracle because no one lives, you know, can I just tell,

I've got to get Mick on, I've got to get him on this podcast

because it'll be brilliant.

And just this is a man, Jules, who, you know, had in his contract

that if he got pissed and had a big night, he could just play a gold card

and have the day off the next day.

So he had six or so and his brother, you know, the great Richard Malloy,

they just negotiated.

And the only person I've met, the more that he fucked up,

the better and more people loved him.

It was like, what a genius.

You know, and he could just negotiate whatever he wanted to,

which is probably why we had him for eight years.

But he is a genius.

He is unique.

So you mentioned him because.

I just, I mentioned him because, you know, he's the most authentic,

colourful character and he has just created an amazing brand

and also a great world for him.

But in terms of leadership, Jim was phenomenal.

And, you know, I miss the big fella.

Yeah.

He would have been doing so much, so much more.

You know, he, by now he would have been, already have been the Lord Mayor

of Melbourne and off it again, no doubt.

You know, he'd be doing something in politics, but he was only halfway.

And although he lived a full life in only half,

he would have just done so much more and, you know, I miss him.

So I am very much thankful for him, but also so many people like yourself, Luke.

You know, that really have unbelievable emotional intelligence

and create environments that I still can benefit from.

Very kind of you, mate.

If you could collaborate with anyone and any particular one of your passions

and you're full of passion in many spaces,

have you ever thought of, I'd love to get hold of that person?

Is it anyone springs to mind?

Scott Galloway is a marketing professor.

And yeah, I have a non-sexual crush on him.

But specifically on his brain, I just think he's, you know,

he's in his fifties.

He's just a, he's a very cool guy.

He's super smart.

He's ballsy.

He's articulate.

And, you know, I just love his opinions on the world.

Got his own podcast, Jules?

Yeah, called Pivot.

And then he has section four, but you can Google Scott Galloway

and he has a weekly newsletter.

And whether you're in,

whether you're in marketing or in tech or in business,

regardless, you will just absolutely fall in love with his writing.

And so every Saturday you'll get, you'll get an email and,

and it'll be something fascinating.

It'll be about AI this week or it'll be about Elon Musk last week.

And I just find him to be absolutely captivating

and would love to collaborate with him.

Yeah. Thanks for, for sharing that.

I have on your recommendation, listen to an incredible thinker,

isn't it?

Incredible, clear and smart and, and, and articulate Jules.

I've loved every minute of sitting down with you and I'm up for round two of dodgeball,

mate.

I need to redeem myself.

I've been ruled out, have I?

Yeah.

It's just a bit full this week.

Really?

Maybe the week after.

Maybe, maybe Max, you can come, maybe Bec, but yeah,

I just think, you know, I would love to have you.

We'd love to have you.

There's a lot of people that want to get you back.

I think there's a return to, I might have to share your,

your vision just to, to, to actually tell people it did happen.

It wasn't a great moment.

Hey, Jules, I've fully appreciated you and thank you so much for being open-minded as you are to,

to join a leader connect and sharing with us the benefits of it.

Really appreciate it.

I know a lot of people listen to this and think, well,

it's a profound life that you've lived, mate, with so much more in the tank to give and always enjoy catching up with you.

Thanks again.

Don't be stupid.

People like,

still aren't listening at this time.

They lived ages ago.

No one gives a shit that much about what I have to say.

I promise you mate, no one has left at all.

All right, here's a tip, pineapple, pineapple.

That's the code word.

If you're still listening, tweet pineapple at Jules Lund.

Done, done.

You watch, you watch.

Thanks mate.

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