How do you leave a legacy and what do you impart on those around you
so that they can continuously have a positive impact for years to come?
G'day, it's Luke Darcy.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field
has been a lifelong passion of mine.
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective
and have had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders
in education, sport, industry and the arts
that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership
where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
I was joined by one of the greatest leaders in AFL history, John Worsfold,
to discuss preparing someone for succession, creating discipline
so that those around you ask the right questions
and having trust in yourself to stand up to whatever comes your way.
Our next guest is a two-time AFL Premiership captain
with the West Coast Eagles, 1992 and 1992.
In 1994, he coached the West Coast Eagles to a Premiership in 2006,
played over 200 AFL games, coached 387 AFL games
with the West Coast Eagles and the Essendon Football Clubs.
Twice, he was voted by his peers,
the AFL Coaches Association Coach of the Year in 2006 and 2011
as their outstanding coach.
And he's universally regarded as one of the game's most feared,
tough and courageous, as well as one of the game's greatest ever leaders.
I speak of John Worsfold.
Thanks for joining me today, Woosher.
I wanted to start with 1987.
The West Coast Eagles joined the AFL.
And for those listening that perhaps aren't as familiar
with the world of Australian rules football,
West Australian football had a huge reputation,
South Australia as well, but it was the VFL,
the Victorian Football League, that always considered themselves
the heartland and the ultimate to get to the VFL.
Of course, when it expanded, and I'm told, Woosher,
and you can correct me if this is wrong,
that you always felt a little bit sluggishly,
that the Victorians looked down on the West Australians
as maybe not being as tough as they were,
and that you were going to make it your personal mission
to prove that that wasn't the case.
Is that a fair question?
It probably is a fair question.
It wasn't through me thinking that's what they thought.
It was from listening to people talking about it and reading.
You know, I've still got a small copy of a letter to the editor
of the West Australian over here.
I assume it's a Victorian.
A Victorian has just caned West Coast in our first year
about having no guts and, you know, just not being up to it
and not tough enough.
And, you know, I must admit, I did think at that stage that,
you know, I'm not really comfortable with that.
And for us to be really successful, we need to show people
that we can play pretty tough as well as be a great
outside running team.
Well, you certainly did that, Woosher.
The image I've got of you, and I think I mentioned this to you before,
is that it felt like you went after the opposition's toughest player.
And I can picture you cleaning up Glenn Archer from North Melbourne,
one of the hardest players of his year at Dermot Burton.
I think it was on the receiving end of a bit of John Worsford attention.
Even Tony Lockett, maybe the most feared player in the game at that time.
Was that something you did?
Did you think, you know, as a leader of my team,
if I go after the opposition's hardest player,
they're going to grow around me?
Is that what happened?
No, certainly not by planning it.
Just the way it happened, it unfolded.
I wasn't that talented that I could pick a target and then time
an opportunity to try and put on a big hit.
But, yeah, it did pan out that way a little bit.
Or maybe it's just that they're the ones we remember more because,
you know, if I cleaned up a skinny Ben Hart or someone like that,
people don't remember it.
They more remember those big, tough names.
A very early shirt front I put on was on Rod Grinter,
who was renowned as a really tough player for the Ds.
And I must admit, he did have a few of our teammates a little bit aware of him
when we were playing them.
So, I think it was 1987 or 1988, so first or second year of West Coast.
And I put this really big hit on him and he was getting helped off the ground
by a couple of trainers in the first quarter.
And at quarter time, I had several teammates come over to me
and, like, almost give me a hug, ruffle my hair, pat me on the back,
like, they were just that happy that Grinter was no longer on the ground.
And that did make me walk a little bit taller and maybe that was one
of the early days when I thought, geez, if I can win my teammates' hearts
by just playing the game the way I play it, that's a pretty cool thing to do.
Now, I wish Rod Grinter was known and still is to this day as Balls
because he was as brave as they come and renowned for impacting
a bit of pain on others.
So, for a bit of context, that would have...
He's made an impact for sure.
I actually spoke to him a few weeks ago and he's head of the past players
at the Melbourne Football Club.
Now, you won't remember this because I would have been much more
low-hanging fruit, but I certainly do because we crossed over in 1997
and it was the last game at the Witten Oval.
So, it was a massive deal for the team I played for, the Bulldogs,
the historic ground that we were no longer going to have as our home ground.
And the West Coast Eagles and you and your teammates had been pretty good
at intimidating our younger players.
And so, we decided pre-game.
To target one of your young players, Michael Gardner.
Now, I'm not sure if...
You probably remember that incident and it erupted from there
and there was a punch on in the back line.
And I think it might have been the second quarter.
You ran past me and it was a cheap shot because there would have been
And I can remember just bowling you over from behind.
Without any context, the ball was a fair way away.
But I'll never forget your response.
And I don't know if you remember this, but by the time you looked up
and I don't think it had much impact on you,
but you just looked up very coldly and you said,
you're going to regret that.
And I remember being taken by just the calmness of it.
And it was more unnerving than someone going berserk at you
because you did it, but you did it in a pretty cold, calculated way.
I do remember the game, obviously.
And I remember being pretty riled up because I was down the opposite end
from where Gardner was targeted.
And I think I was walking down towards my position,
so I didn't actually see it all happen.
So, I don't know if I was disappointed that I missed out on some of the action
or whether I was upset.
I'm not a really targeted Gardner,
but I think I might have been playing on Stephen Colin York
or someone like that.
And I just thought, this guy is probably going to pay a prize
for what his teammates have done up the other end.
He may not know why, but at some point that may happen.
But look, I do always felt as though I was in control, Gar.
So, when someone had a crack at me,
I don't think I got too wound up that I was going to lose control
and whack them back straight away.
But I certainly did.
remember things and, you know, I would have brought it up
if the opportunity arose and I managed to put a good bump on.
I might have just had that raw smile looking down saying, you know,
I did suggest that that was going to come back to bite you.
And for context, you're not the most physically imposing
and you weren't really, 180 centimetres, so 5 foot 11 in the old
So it wasn't as though, you know, Tony Lockett just through sheer mass
was terrifying really, wasn't he, for a lot of players.
I mean, he made that impact.
But for you, where did it come from?
You remember as a kid just that because it takes something special
to have that trust in yourself that you can stand up to whatever's coming?
I sort of just remember that I love the game.
I love the competitive nature of the game.
So going hard and win the ball.
But if the opposition have got it, it's fair game to try
and get it back off them.
But also in terms of, you know, in my era, protecting your teammate
was a big part of the game.
And it was legal.
We put on big shepherds, you know, within five metres
of your teammate carrying the ball.
But these days, you just don't see it happen because of risks
of clashing heads or maybe getting them high.
Or if you put a big shepherd on and they're not aware of it,
they hit their head on the ground, players are getting suspended.
So, you know, the old-fashioned run hard an opponent and shepherd
for your teammate doesn't happen.
But I did enjoy giving my teammates time and space.
And taking those opportunities, even as a young kid.
So, and I do, I just have one recollection as a junior footballer,
maybe at 14 years of age.
And you remember that the parents sat within a metre of the boundary line
in those days in their deck chairs and opposition parents,
like, really giving it to me, booing me.
And I'm thinking as a 14-year-old, they're having a crack at one guy
because I think I put on a big shepherd or something like that
right in front of them.
But, you know, that didn't rile me.
It was like, no, I get that.
I get that they're upset because that's their team,
but I'm doing this for my team and that's what counts.
And it certainly, yeah, stayed with you right throughout your career.
I wanted to jump, Woosha, to the coaching part of your life.
And you started your coaching career at the Carlton Football Club
as an assistant there.
And everyone I know that knows you talks about you being really consistent
and your values really consistent in the person that you are.
And I'm told that there was an old occasion,
that may be too strong a word,
but John Elliott was,
was the legendary president of Carlton,
who I think was pretty instrumental in getting you to the Carlton Football Club.
But he crossed paths with you and you had to explain to him where he stood.
Is that a true story?
And can you share that story with us?
Yeah, well, John was president of the Carlton Footy Club
and I was an assistant coach looking after the back line,
but I was also an assistant coach of the VFL team,
our reserves team as it was back then.
Often the reserves, the Carlton reserves,
were playing as the pre-game leading up to our seniors
at the old Prince's Park.
So the good old days, Dallas.
And so I was an assistant coach of the reserves too.
Ross Lyon was coaching them and I was an assistant to Ross.
So in short, John had asked me or John's,
the Carlton people had asked me if I'd be John's pre-game guest
at his luncheon, his president's luncheon
and have a few words before the seniors played,
which I agreed to.
It was going to be obviously after the reserves game,
leading into the league playing.
But the reserves game was whether we had,
I think we had a bad concussion or something like that
and the game extended out and went a little bit longer.
So I finished that game off.
It was a pretty tight game, but did my job
and then left and rushed around to the president's luncheon.
And when I got there, the guy on the door said,
no, you're too late.
John started, you can't go in.
So I thought, no problems.
I'll just go down and prepare the seniors ready to play.
And then after the seniors game, John came down into the rooms.
We must have won because he didn't come down the rooms if we lost.
And he bailed me up and just said,
you were late for my president's luncheon.
Don't ever let that happen.
And I just questioned him on, said, John, I was doing my job.
Where does that sit in regards of the values of the club?
And, you know, I saw my priority as to do my job
and help the reserves team and your lunch for the secondary.
I don't know if he saw it that way.
I don't think he was used to people actually giving him some feedback.
But, you know, I wasn't being offensive.
I just wanted him to let him know what my understanding and expectations were.
And, you know, we got on really well from then on.
Or before that, we still got on very well.
Well, it's interesting.
He was, for those that don't know John Elliott's history,
I think he was president of Carlton for maybe 27 years
through an incredibly powerful era.
There was talk of him being the prime minister of Australia,
he was the head of elders that at one stage were going to try and take over BH,
he was as big a high flyer in the corporate world
as Australia had ever had at that stage.
And perhaps in later life, you know, John's had some challenges.
But that to me, I mean, this podcast is about empowering leadership,
which I want to talk to you about.
But that was certainly the old school leadership, wasn't it?
No one crosses John Elliott at Carlton.
You did because of your values.
And as you said, you felt like that was in the end pretty well received
if you stood up to that and he knew your values, that was a positive.
Yeah, look, I honestly didn't know how he was going to take it.
But it was what I believed in.
It was to let him know the background to it and that I valued my role
and my job at Carlton and, you know, attending his lunches.
It was important, but it was secondary to actually, you know, doing my job.
So I was comfortable to let him know.
And I think he was a bit shocked.
Well, I've got no doubt he was.
But I was comfortable to do it because it felt right.
You know, to me it was right and I needed to let him know that.
Now, I wasn't necessarily thinking of going here,
but as we're talking, Wisher, I've got something in mind that I think of
when I think of you and Carlton had that great successful period
and you end up coaching the Essendon Football Club,
had a massive successful period.
But it was in an era where they were able to go and recruit
unbelievable players out of the other leagues, South Australia,
go and top up with these incredibly talented players,
the great Stephen Kernaghan and Mark Naley and Peter Motley,
this goes on Craig Bradley and likewise Essendon.
And I suppose this is, you know,
controversial, Wisher.
They also had, you know, their issues.
Both those clubs were found to have cheated on the salary cap
and played outside the rules, both Carlton and Essendon.
And you end up coaching Essendon many years later.
Did it feel like to you that sometimes those clubs hadn't transcended their past
and they're still looking to maybe take shortcuts because they've been out of
win in the past doing that?
I think you left a bit of a parting message when you left Essendon that I don't
think was picked up that well.
But is that a reasonable summation?
What I believe, and I was only at Carlton for a brief period,
two years, and then I had my five years at the Bombers.
But, you know, those clubs are unbelievably old,
traditional VFL community-based clubs is how they started.
You know, they were based right in the heart of Essendon and right
in the heart of Carlton and that's where their members came from.
And, you know, that was a really strong part of the culture.
And they were both obviously the two clubs that have won the most
AFL Premierships in their history.
So very, very successful clubs.
I feel as though they were the slowest to buy into the new era, the new AFL and
control of the era where everyone plays by the same rules in terms of a salary
cap and, you know, an equalisation system.
And I can understand that.
Well, why would Carlton and Essendon that are at the absolute top want to buy
into equalisation with St Kilda and North Melbourne and maybe back then the Western
Bulldogs and these clubs that didn't have the same sort of membership and and corporate
So they try to hang on to the old ways as long as they could.
And it did, I believe, got them into trouble with some of the decision making around, you
know, we don't have to stick by these rules.
We'll do what's always been successful for us.
But they had signed over by staying in the AFL comp.
A lot of that decision making and power was owned by the AFL and they got punished pretty
So, you know, whereas I saw firsthand at West Coast that we said, we're in this, these are
rules, we're going to play by these rules and and maximise how well we do it.
So set up really good list management recruiting systems because we're going to have to work
within these guidelines.
Whereas I get the feeling that those clubs may have said, let's just, you know, we know
where the good players are.
We'll just get them. We'll try and get them outside the rules of the draft or the salary cap.
Yeah. And I suppose your experience at Essendon in the Amwish, I always felt a little bit
embarrassed by mainstream media because I've worked in it since playing, you know, almost
full time or full time.
The way that we sometimes deal with legends, you know, like you finish up as coaches and
suddenly at the end we decide that we want to try and, you know, what's the word I'm
after, diminish great people in the industry because it suits a narrative that you're
leaving. And if, you know, you didn't win a premiership and you're unsuccessful and
not really looking at the facts.
And, you know, I think you did leave a little bit of a message that was went through the
keeper. A lot of people say, hey, there is a system here.
If you're not prepared to do the hard work, planning and get good people in and proper
recruiting and you only want to go back to the old way, was that a little bit of a bit
of a warning shot back to say, hey, I can't work in this system because my values will
only allow me to do it this way?
Not really. I couldn't work in that system.
But just to understand that you have to build a premiership squad.
These days, so many things have to go right.
You can't just think, OK, we're missing this one piece.
Let's go and get it at the end of this season through having more money than everyone else
and being a big name club that everyone wants to come to.
It just doesn't work like that.
You've got to pay a price either by giving up high draft picks to trade or to recruit
in and say we're getting a young kid in.
That's just the way it works.
And the old days of saying we want Greg Williams, he'll add some value to us.
Let's just get him.
They don't exist anymore.
So, yeah, my point was Essendon in particular were just so focused on winning a final.
It's been so long since we've won a final.
It's like, OK, just because of that and because you're a huge, respected old club doesn't
give you the right to win a final without doing the hard work and planning and sticking
to a plan over a period of time.
Just hoping next year is a good year and we win a final.
Whereas Essendon doesn't cut it anymore.
So, yeah, and, you know, what I've giggled at a little bit this year, Darce, is that
people are saying we've got a – Ben Runton's done a wonderful job this year.
He's taken Essendon into the finals, which was not really expected.
But people have been saying let's give him time, though.
They may go slightly backwards or maintain their position next year and the year after,
but everyone can see the pathway they're on.
I like the fact that they're saying let's give this guy time and stick to the path.
And work towards winning a premiership because that's what it's all about.
They're winning the premierships, not just winning a final to heading a list that you're
not comfortable heading, as in the longest team since winning a final.
Aim for another premiership.
To win a premiership, you'll win that final, so it'll take care of itself.
And I know you're not angling at this in any way, shape or form, but you were clearly part
of that succession plan.
You're too humble to do that with Ben Runton.
They're done everywhere in the business world as a natural course of the way you do business.
But I understand Ben Runton is absolutely unequivocal and that the success he's had this
year is due to what you allowed him to do in that last year and give him incredible
guidance and leadership and a clear run to coach the side.
I mean, it's an incredible reflection on the person you are to make that happen.
I mean, was that – can you talk me through handing the reins over to someone when you
had 12 months to go yeah well i mean just knowing that you know i was leaving the bombers in in my
own terms uh as in to come home to perth to reunite with my family who i'd been working
remote from them for three years i knew i couldn't do it any longer than three years so
xavier campbell the ceo of essendon was well and truly aware of that we'd been really up front with
all our communication so we knew there was a change at the end of uh at the end of my time
there by five years they decided that they felt ben rutton was a great person to step in
um after i'd finished so it just made sense to help prep him and the squad best way we could
going forward so yeah it had to be it's that it wasn't about me and my last year at essendon and
whether we made finals or whatever we're obviously still striving to achieve the best we could but
in the end it became so clear to me that ben was was ready to take over
way earlier than maybe i we would initially thought we were planning on him coaching some
games in his own right in the back half of the year he ended up coaching every game yeah he
led the pre-season and i said mate you're ready to go so you just coach the team so in effect
going into his first year this year he'd had a full year of having a look at his game plan
educating the players around it working out where he felt players would best fit within that game
it was like a research year for him as much as anything um and i was fully supportive of that
so yeah look i i suppose um if our measure of success of the actual coaching succession plan
was that we best prepared ben for a long successful coaching career not around where
we finished the latter the previous year as on the field so much of our succession plan the kpis
were around getting ben prepared for the all the
extra media commitments he'd have the extra coterie and sponsor commitments that he would
have with the club um having a better understanding about his playing list building those relationships
as as the man who's telling them if they're dropped you know at the start of the year we
did it together but by about round five i'd stepped away and ben did it all himself so
learning that building those relationships and just gave him a head start stepping in as senior
coach um i'm wrapped that he feels as though well i know he felt it was valuable because of the
because we've bounced ideas off each other all year and he was very you know thankful that when
the season finished and i and i headed back to perth so but the fact that the bombers um came
on so well this year i think was a bonus to watch that happen but ultimately i felt as though ben was
better prepared for coaching than if he was assistant coach at another club and got a job
on his own and stepped in cold i feel as though we prepared him well you almost feel like that's
the template right there
but it's interesting it takes uh you know from my observation someone like you who's prepared
and you wore all the heat you're all you wore all of the the bombs that were being thrown publicly
and um you know i suppose it's another great gift of leadership isn't it to to do that with uh
with uh humility it makes me think i'm not sure if you've read the book uh which uh
jim collins he calls uh it's a good to great famous book and you're nodding like you've read
and he talks about level five leaders as being that bracket that uh i think he quite a use i
think he's building endurance and he's building endurance and he's building endurance and he's
doing greatness through a paradoxical blend of personal humility and professional will and
you can get leaders below that who may be a bit more ego that can build a good organization but
not a great one and um you know does that resonate with you i think that the great leaders have that
extra sort of level of humility and will at the same stage uh yeah look i i mean it does resonate
very strongly it wasn't something i'd thought a lot about but to me um to you know my absolute
focus last year was to uh give ben as many opportunities to understand what he was
stepping into what what the senior coaching gig was going to be so he i mean it still would have
hit him in the face when he started but he was ready for it he understood what was going on so
i always communicate to him this is what i'm doing this is what's happening he he observed
my press conferences we pulled them apart afterwards good ones the bad ones we talked
about it so there was just so many opportunities for ben to learn and grow and
um yeah i know people sort of go well essendon called a uh a review an internal review post
season that uh to me was no reflection on the succession plan that was around we want to set
the club up and ben up for the next premiership so let's have a look now we've got a coaching
changeover what do we need to do where are the gaps what are we going to do it made absolute
sense to do that now i got pinned on the fact that we didn't have a successful year on the field but
you know ultimately you know we're going to have a successful year on the field but
i feel as though what the club did uh hopefully they agree or see that what my small role in
assisting ben has has helped them look like everyone's excited and you know to me that
means the succession plan was a success everyone's really excited and see where their club's going
they've got a really talented young coach in charge uh that performed exceptionally well in
his first year and hopefully part of that a small part was the
work we put in together last year the humility is there isn't it uh which all great leaders have
around not taking credit which i know um you won't do um everyone i know that's played under
you wish it talks about you this podcast we've we've titled empowering leaders that you are the
ultimate empowering leader in that you really almost uh so disciplined around not wanting to
just give instruction that you always ask questions of your players you want them to
learn and then come to the conclusions themselves
is that accurate and and can you explain why you you went down that path um yeah it's pretty
accurate i mean there's obviously times when a leader just has to make make quick decisions or
tell people that this is what we need to do and but uh you know through my experience personally
but also you know as a coach over a long period of time i found that uh if players players in
particular but it goes for assistant coaches etc if they work out the answer or the solution to an
issue they have themselves uh the outcome of their actions is so much stronger than me working it
out for them and telling them to go and do it this way so it's that uh you know intrinsic motivation
it comes from you know there's been a lot of studies done around that i've spent a fair bit
of time reading reading about what really what absolutely gets people to want to turn up and
do their job and do it well and you know knowing that they can do it well is one thing but having
i'm empowered to go away and find the way to do this the best drives that motivation and it goes
back and i don't mind i don't think you'll mind me sharing this story but josh kennedy who's been
a wonderful footballer for west coast uh when he first started with us he he came to my office and
he said i've got a problem and so he'd only been at the club for a couple of months and he's a
young guy young 19 year old um i've got a problem um and i'm thinking oh we've just traded chris
one of the greatest players of all time
and replacing you and two months in tell me you've got a problem what's the issue then
and he said i love going out with the boys and having a drink i love it it's like
i just love it and if there's anything happening on there i'm gonna lead the way
i'm you know i'll set up the party games and it'll be a great night and i've got to be there
i said okay i can see why what's the problem with that he said i think it's holding me back from
achieving what i want to achieve i've been getting soft tissue injuries and so i said okay we'll go
think about what it would look like if you achieve what you're telling me you want to achieve which
is play every game and and be a good goal kicker so he did that he came back to me with not only a
report on curbing how many times he went out and had a drink uh but his pre-training plan
what he would do before every training session to prepare what he did after every training session
to improve his skills and that went i think it ended up being like 15 extra things per week
that he was doing and i think that's what he did and i think that's what he did and i think that's
what he was doing on top of just turning up and being told to train and you know it's just
obviously he then went on i think he said his early goals were to kick 20 play 25 or 22 games
and kick 25 goals now he obviously just blew that out of the water and over over the terms of his
career but i never had to go back to him again and tell him to pull his head in or that he need
to be more professional because he just ran the program his program that he came up with and he
went out and did it and i would see him do it again and i would see him do it again and i would see
him doing it i didn't have to check in i could just go you know acknowledge and say it looks
like it's all working for you mate and he was like yeah no i'm on top of it it's going great
so you know it's just a wonderful example of me not saying to him how about you just go out once
every month uh and avoid all the other times and knock off your your nights out at midnight and
get home i don't know if that would have achieved the same as him designing his own program yeah
what a great story he's gone on you know to be the greatest goal kicker in the history of the
west coast eagles and uh you know an incredible story and i love the fact that he felt comfortable
enough to go to his senior coach and say hey this is my behavior you clearly set up the conditions
in the first place washer that allowed that to be the case yeah well that's self-awareness that
he wasn't where he wanted to be as a young footballer and he had some awareness of what
the issue was is was a great sign of a self-driven young man anyway um you know if i had to find out
that he was up to those things
through whispers of others and then confront him uh it probably sends another message that he's not
quite as driven and motivated as what he was so yeah it was uh some players aren't as driven as
that and you do have to push them a little bit harder there's no doubt about that that's part
of the art of coaching that not it's not one size fits all you do have to be aware of uh you know
some guys need more pushing but if you can push them a bit harder to still come up with their
um you're going to get a better outcome and we're sure you know again um you know reacting to what
you say i mean it was an incredible era that you had and you created an incredible vision for the
west coast eagles in 2006 but it wasn't a group without its challenges in the end and they're
well publicized a lot of them particularly you know ben cousins's struggle it's great to see in
recent times it feels as though ben's potentially turned the corner do you look back on any of that
and and wish you could change anything what's your reflection when you look back on
a the brilliant success but be some of the challenges that came out of that time
yeah but if you could change anything and this is just from my own personal values i wouldn't want
any players using any illicit drugs at any time i know they're dangerous and they're not helpful
in society so look i would i would hope across not only my foot my footy club every club and
and across community that there was no access to those illicit drugs that are so damaging and
dangerous but you know that's obviously uh
a bit of a pipe dream but um you can only deal with what's in front of you and you know it has
been pulled apart and assessed what happened through that period all i can say is that it
was extremely challenging period to still do your job and prepare an afl club to train hard
train professionally prepare to be a great team and uh have over a period of time and obviously
things that came to light had to be dealt with and uh and as they did
we talked about the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
some actions and people will say it should have been harder should have acted earlier they don't
really know the full background but other than to say it was uh it was a pretty tough time that uh
that we worked through but we had to make some big calls and and readdress the culture that had
crept in at west coast we did that over a two or three year period and when i finished up at west
coast in 2013 i have no doubt that adam simpson walked into a culture that was a culture that was
was ready to to go and and he acknowledged that he's had no issues in the culture there
while he's been there and that wasn't just because of his values it was what we left him with and i
know he personally thanked me a couple of months in around the attitude of the players and what he
was coaching he felt really comfortable with it so you know that that was a great learning curve
for me for sure it was uh as a young coach it was a massive issue and uh yeah i really applaud
everyone at west coast at the time we made a lot of tough calls um but through the board and uh and
the management and then the coaching staff and the players buying to address that culture and turn it
around it took some tough decisions and you know you can't just do it overnight and a lot of people
say just take these actions and you'll fix the problem it is a bit tougher than that um and you
know in the end uh the culture i left at west coast was way better than the culture i walked
in in 2002 i've got no doubt about that and along the way we won a premiership uh we had some massive
challenges but you know the fact that uh the culture was really uh strong when i left i'm proud
of that again i've got the good to great in in mind isn't it what you leave behind and what happens
afterwards is uh is uh you know an incredible part of uh of any legacy and uh in every organization
it seems that's what happens after after your time is there and you think of the complexity
in society of dealing with illicit drugs and to think that you know you're not going to be able to
a risk-taking group of 800 afl players and not going to be subjected to the same challenges is
is is naive in the extreme isn't it and and australian football dealt with it in the same
way that um well probably better and probably uh with more integrity because it's such a complex
issue i wanted to change gear with you because i know that uh you have been part of uh of a
collaboration that uh i'm really passionate about you and a number of your peers from different
coaching backgrounds justin langer from the australian cricket team ben rutten who you've
handed the reins over to at essendon trent robinson who's got a great history of success
with the sydney roosters matt king his assistant don pike your old premiership teammate and coach
of the adelaide uh crows for an extended period of time into into a grand final and uh and my
great friend matt waterwitz can you tell me about that australian coaching symposium what it's meant
to you to be able to catch up regularly with with your peers and what you've got out of it
it's it's been awesome you know i i'm a big believer in um actually being able to share
examples case studies ideas um with peers across other sports is so valuable so
yeah there's various ways you can do that but to have uh and covet help that in terms of
everyone getting more on board with zoom meetings like this meant that we're all around australia
and at times around the world but we could at at one point each fortnight catch up and
and share those ideas on an ongoing basis so we actually got to know
a lot about each other's backgrounds uh other challenges we'd face and and share those with
each other the the amount of value in that over and above just going and listening to you know
they could they're often highly respected sporting or business uh people been been very very
successful and they tell their story but just to be in the audience and listen to that you can
pick up little bits and little nuggets but they you know there was a like a nugget a nugget every
10 minutes in and out of the room and i think that's a really important thing to do and i think
discussions and our dialogue um around all aspects of of being a leader so it's just been
unbelievably invaluable and the fact that we've done it ongoing fortnightly for you know over
what coming up 18 months you can imagine how much we've grown and learned together and these are all
aren't all fresh coaches a couple of benny rutton and matt king are young assistant coaches and
you know i think for them uh it's just been enormous but
they've been around for a long time we just learned so much and it's uh it's hard to um
i couldn't be more glowing about it obviously um it's just one of those opportunities that came
about and uh i don't think i could have learned any more in any other way without maybe going and
living overseas for 12 months and embedding yourself in a different environment and and
doing it day in day out the way that this has rolled on as it's just been amazing yeah
wish that i'd understand um that you guys have been incredibly open and shared and there's
obviously a lot of stories that are private uh to that particular group but matt and i love the
concept and we'd love to expand on this wish and a bit to get your thoughts around the term i've
got in my mind is almost like your own personal board of directors and to meet people at your
level that you can be vulnerable with you can share the the great uh moments but also the
challenges you've got in real time that to me that would be an invaluable thing for anyone
whatever the background you come from is that how you've sort of seen it is that you know you had
some relationships existing within there but there were some new ones as well is it almost like a
you you tune in and you've got this this support group that you perhaps didn't have before yeah
absolutely that's how it works yeah it's um you know i was lucky enough to spend a little bit of
time with rick charlesworth the great successful one of one of if not the most successful australian
coach you know going around um and i think that's a great thing to do and i think that's a great
um with all his success in in hockey um and pick his brains a little bit over over a period of time
and there's so much learning in in those opportunities and as i said with rick it
might have been three two-hour meetings over a six-month period i've been able to do that
fortnightly for 18 months with these guys with a group of guys so um yeah to me that's the greatest
learning on the job learning is is probably the most powerful when you're in charge and you're
you make decisions and you can assess did that work or not what did i learn from that that's
probably where you do learn the most but sharing ideas with people in very similar positions facing
basically the same challenges just in a different environment whether it's another sport or a
corporate um there's there's so much value to share you just pick bits out and you think wow
there that will fit with where i was heading so well and will make what i was planning to do
even more powerful
just from um something that you know another experienced person has shared with you
i will give a quick plug if you are interested in forming your own uh group uh we'd be interested in
uh in supporting you with that go to a leader collective and register some interest and uh and
we'll get back to you if you want to experience what john worsefold uh is talking about now i've
got a handful of questions i want to get to wish a bit there's one someone like you you don't get
the success consistently without having some pretty strong habits and routines is there anything you
still do today i think you're 52 years of age
you look strong and healthy and fit and dedicated what do you do daily to look after yourself
i exercise pretty much every day um usually an hour's exercise uh every day um first thing in
the morning i get up early and i just really enjoy it that's one and feel great after i've exercised
so i really do notice that if it's a day i haven't exercised i don't feel as good throughout the day
now that maybe just have my mental models my mental mental health problems but i'm just going to go with it and i'll see you next time
The gap there, I've got a jean that's just a bit loose,
but I just love it, you know.
So I get up, it might be head down to the beach and run for an hour
and have a swim or get on a spin bike for an hour or get in the gym
and push the weights around, do a little bit of aerobic work.
So, you know, I'm pretty religious about that.
There's a funny story.
Actually, my youngest daughter, she's 17 and she's just getting
into the gym age and she's going to the gym and she's getting
on the treadmill and her boyfriend said to her the other day,
I'm going to put a little bit of an incline on the treadmill
while you're running.
And she said, no, don't do that.
It's hard enough as it is.
And he said, she said, no, look, I just don't like running,
so don't make it any harder.
And he said, no one likes running.
And she looked at him and said, my dad does.
She told me that story and I said, Grace, I don't like running.
So, yeah, look, that's my day.
You know, I try to plan my day out so I'm well prepared
for whatever's coming up.
I don't like surprises and I like to be organised.
So I pride myself on that and try and be present in anything
I'm taking part in so I don't get distracted by my mobile phone.
If I'm talking to people in a meeting, that's always a way.
So they're little rules I go by.
Be present, give people respect of listening to them
and showing them that you're there, not that you booked me
into this meeting and I have to be there,
but I'd prefer to be doing other things.
I can't help but think what a brave young man that is,
knocking on the Worsfold House door of his 17-year-old daughter,
which he's going to have some resilience, that young man, for sure.
I've got a 16-year-old daughter as well,
so I might need to ring you at some stage for some advice there.
So these are the handful of questions,
we feel a bit consistent around leadership and the dimensions
that make great leaders and we're hoping to sort of see
if there are some patterns with people like you and others
that we've been talking to, particularly on this podcast.
I want to start with self-leadership, Bush.
When I ask you that, what does that mean to you?
Well, it just means being absolutely clear on who you are,
what your values are.
Our personal values are, I use the term mental models because our values
but also the beliefs we live by.
They, according to where we grew up, they impact us so much.
Just being clear on what they are, being clear that what you believe
is not necessarily universal.
Not everyone will have the same view as you, so I just, I'm always,
I take that into account whenever I'm talking to someone,
that I might think I've got the best idea and this is going
to save the world, but you'll get some percentage of people
that look at you like you're just off the planet.
That's not going to work.
So I don't get frustrated if I get feedback.
Oh, no, that didn't resonate with that person or some people have suggested
it wasn't really valuable to them.
I go, that's fine.
They'll find their way in the world around what they value,
but it's really inauthentic to that.
I just think I've been challenged at times to do things that have maybe
challenged me on who I am, maybe to be a harder coach.
We want to coach this.
You need to really give it to the players.
They need to know that they let us down today.
And, you know, I found that that wasn't who I was.
So I wasn't going to do that even if that's what certain people thought
was going to be good.
And basically my belief was that it was going to be good for them
to hear a coach scream and rant and maybe punch the whiteboard.
I don't believe it was necessarily going to be good for my playing group
and it certainly wasn't going to be good for me.
So I would not do that.
I would do it my way.
And, you know, I like the fact that in my early days coaching,
there were a few players that were questioned by,
media around, does Woosha just scare you with when he really gets angry?
And they said, he never yells at us, but we look at his eyes and we're scared.
So, you know, that they knew when I was serious and when we needed
to knuckle down and improve without me screaming at them.
Yeah, I've heard you say mental models a couple of times now, Woosha.
Have you got that written down?
Have you got your values, your personal values or your mental model?
Or is it something that just intrinsically is you?
No, it is who we are.
You know, that's...
They're embedded in us over our lifetime.
And they change or you pick up some new mental models along the way.
But generally, they're pretty strongly embedded in us
just through our life experiences.
But what I've learned over time is, you know,
when we take over as a leader of maybe a business or a sporting team,
we say we're going to have a set of core values we're going to live by.
And you put a lot of work into getting everyone aligned to them.
We very rarely spend any time reflecting
on what our personal values are.
We just sort of know they're there unconsciously.
You know, we make decisions around what we value.
Do you rush and go through a red light or do you pull up and stop?
That's a value of mental model that you have.
If you're the person who's, no, I can make it through here
and it's a little bit red, but that's okay.
Or you're someone that will not go through the red light at all.
You know, everyone will have a slightly different take on it.
And that's just across...
Every situation we're in every day, the way we parent,
the way we lead, the way we treat ourselves.
You know, most of my training sessions, I do it on my own.
I don't need to go...
I don't need to know...
If I don't go, I'm letting someone down because I'm meeting my mate
and I've said I'll go for a run with him.
You know, I don't miss a session because I want to do it for myself.
You know, it's just a strong mental model that I have.
So, yeah, I think if people can just spend some time in their situation,
so as a leader of an organisation,
or of a club, to think about what are my values
and how do they line up with what I want my corporation's values to be
or what they currently are.
Are they strongly aligned and how do they fit together?
Yeah, it's a pretty powerful, simple thing to do, isn't it?
What do I stand for?
What are my values?
What are the things I'm not really negotiable on?
And clearly that comes out in you.
You know, we understand the impact you had in the succession plan
with Ben Rutten and I think a fair sense of how you positively impact
Have you consciously thought about that,
the impact you have on others in your environment?
I've always felt it's a strong responsibility I have.
And, you know, some of the things that resonated most
throughout my whole time coaching have been assistant coaches
that have really thanked me for what I've learnt from being in a program
that I've been a leader of.
So, you know, that means a lot.
And players that – Matt Pritis, when I retired from coaching West Coast,
I think he was a great coach.
I think that year Matt Pritis had won the West Coast Best and Fairest
and in his speech he thanked me.
But he thanked me for teaching him some values that he was going
to pass on to his family.
That's a pretty strong, powerful thing to have someone say to you,
that not just thanks for giving me a game and let me play in the guts
and I've won the Best and Fairest award.
He thanked me for giving him some tools and values that, you know,
hopefully we're going to shape his kids.
Values growing up.
You know, that meant more to me than anything.
So, you know, there's been a couple of examples where players have shared
that publicly but also personally with me which, you know,
that is really having an impact.
And, you know, I've said it several times in the past.
We're there to win games as a coach and be part of a club that's successful
and winning premierships.
But there's many, many other measures of success within that
that mean a lot to a lot of people as well.
One of the dimensions we talk about is,
is vision and how you create and share it.
I've always felt watching you from the outside that teams you're involved
with always had a pretty clear vision.
How did you go about it?
Yeah, look, generally they were developed together so that the players,
everyone who worked really tightly within the football department had equal say
in developing the vision.
So it was around we're all there to win a premiership.
What do we need to be doing that will help us win a premiership, you know,
in terms of whether it's defensive game plan and attacking game plan,
being the most skilful team, being the strongest, most physical team,
whatever it is, let's agree to it and then we will build the systems to get
at to achieve that.
At West Coast, they wanted to be the hardest running team in the comp.
The players agreed to it.
The coaches said that's what we'll do.
The weights coach had to develop his program around helping them be great
runners, not just big heavy guys that can win one-on-one contests
because that wasn't going to be the way we went about it.
The running program that those West Coast boys went through,
through 2004, 5, 6, 7, was gruelling.
You know, it was around building them into running machines and, you know,
other clubs talked about it.
They couldn't believe that, you know, don't think you've ever got West Coast beat.
They will keep running through the end of the game and we finished a lot
of games unbelievably strong.
So, yeah, I did the same with Essendon in my first year there.
We were building a...
We were building a vision for the next three years and then all the
suspensions happened.
So, we had to change it.
It wasn't going to hold up.
So, maybe in November 2015, we designed a shared vision.
Then we lost 12 players to suspension.
So, in February the next year, we did it with a new group once we'd
recruited in the replacement players.
We did a short-term one-year vision.
We're only going to be together one year, boys.
This is, you know, a really drastic situation.
What do we want to get out of the year?
And we all got very clear on that.
And, you know, everything we did that year was around living up to that vision,
which was, you know, in a nutshell, getting better, improving individually
and as a team and having fun, which that was a challenging part because
people were saying we wouldn't win a game for the year.
How do you have fun if you're going to lose every week?
Players said they really enjoyed that year and hopefully they believe they're in a good place.
They improved and got better as well.
Yeah, I've got the image of your West Coast teams being on the field and coming off.
And our midfielders saying you just can't run with this group.
You know, they certainly bought into that.
It was, you know, a powerful running group, almost the likes of which we hadn't seen before.
So, clearly, that was bought into and worked from an outside point of view as well.
You strike me as someone incredibly curious, and we see that as a real important dimension of leadership
As a constant learner, that's come out in the chat already.
How do you think about that curiosity and learning and improvement?
I just think, yeah, the amount of time you have to put into learning to find the bits that really resonate with you,
it's a big commitment to make.
So, you know, I read a lot in the hope of learning small bits that I'll be able to use for when I'm in certain situations
or even ongoing or that challenge my own mental models or that reinforce.
Some of the mental models I have.
So, I don't always look for things that just reinforce me and tell me, oh, yeah, you're doing a good job
because this guy did it that way.
I do challenge myself as well.
And that's where, you know, having the Australian Coach Symposium and bouncing ideas off other guys,
you can go, well, I would never have done it that way, but it worked for you in that situation.
That's now something that I've got up my sleeve that I can read the play and go to if I'm in a similar situation.
Yeah, just learning, reading, listening to people non-stop.
And they don't have to always be the experts in industry.
They don't have to be the guys at the top of the game.
Sometimes talking to a young, fresh coach, even players,
you can pick up some little nuggets from them about what's driven them.
I mean, I love talking to Zach Merritt, who's as driven a young man, young footballer as you would see.
Strong goals, strong focus on what he wants.
But, you know, I learned talking to him, some little nuggets around how he goes.
And when he would question me, why are we doing it that way?
Well, that's an awesome question.
You know, I love the way you go about that.
So always learning in everything you do.
People are always sharing nuggets with you when you're talking to them.
So be open to it.
Sounds like you are a consistent, passionate reader.
What's your go-to?
What sort of books can you recommend?
Can you recommend a book?
Or two that you value?
Oh, look, I've read so many books over the time.
Going way back, Rod McQueen, former, you know, Rugby Union coach of Australia.
Can't remember what it was called.
It was like from the boardroom to the field, something like that.
I really enjoyed that as a young coach.
I think that may have even been before I got my first coaching job.
But tied in his experience from boardroom stuff to coaching as well.
But Rick Charlesworth's first book, you know, when you highlight pages
or you stick little sticky notes in to say there's a little nugget in there,
like his book has the most pages marked out of any book I've ever read.
We've got the luxury of scanning for articles in magazines,
sporting magazines, business magazines these days.
So I scan and have little notifications coming up and I just have a look
and I say, wow, that's an article.
That I'd like to read because of the heading of it.
So I'll have a read from business magazines to sporting journals.
So that's what I do a lot of my research on.
I was just looking up, I think Rod McQueen, One Step Ahead.
Might be the one that you're referring to.
So I'll put that on the list for sure.
Communicating with clarity, Woosha, what's your thoughts on that?
Clarity comes from knowing, being authentic.
That's the first part.
If you're trying to sell a message that you don't really believe in,
people are going to pick up on it.
So forget about clarity.
People aren't going to embrace an idea you're sharing with them, a message,
if they feel as though you're only half invested in it and they can tell,
you know, that's my experience.
You can call it a bullshit detector, whatever you want to call it,
but especially elite athletes, they pick up on it.
A coach is not really selling this like he's 100% invested.
So be authentic, believe in what you're selling,
what your message is and the clarity, but also, you know,
understanding that no matter how clear and articulate we believe we are
as selling a message, if you're talking to 40 people,
there's going to be 40 different meanings made out of that message.
And if you understand that, that helps you.
You know, they may pick up the general idea of the meaning,
but everyone will latch on to something different and they'll twist it
in their mind about what it means to them.
If you're talking about being a very good defensive team
and you're selling it to an AFL team, the forwards are thinking,
oh, yeah, we're going to play a man down every week because he's going
to put a spare man behind the ball.
So they're already going, oh, my career here at this club is going
to be harder because I'm going to be outnumbered.
And then I'll listen to the rest of the message, you know?
So they'll jump to those conclusions.
The back line, they might be thinking, awesome, defence is number one,
give us a spare man every time, we're going to rack up positions
And smash the oppo and it'll be good for us.
But, you know, when you're sending that message out to a different crew
of people, they're all going to start twisting it around according
to how it's going to impact them.
So make your messages as short as possible and then ask
for understanding of the messages to a lot of individuals as opposed,
you know, don't just ask the whole group because the confident guy
will put his hand up and tell you what he understood by it
and you'll say, yeah, that was pretty close, thanks.
You need to get around to a number of individuals and say,
what did you, what was your, you know, the meaning you made
out of that meeting, what did you understand by it?
And you'll get a better idea of how clear you were.
Yeah, great, great insight on that front.
The word collaboration as a dimension of leadership,
we're passionate about.
You've already spoken about the Australian Coaching Symposium,
a fortnightly collaboration you do with a handful of your peers.
Have you always been a collaborator?
Because I sense that wasn't the world.
I played under or you played under.
It was very much the old hierarchy.
Were you always sort of geared towards collaboration?
Yeah, I think I have been, yeah.
I definitely know that generally you're surrounded by people
with a lot of knowledge and a lot of skills and often they are,
there's different levels of knowledge than what you have.
So to think that you know everything and the most about everything,
even if it's in one specific thing like the way I want my AFL team to play,
you're kidding yourself.
I've always wanted to have collaborative sessions where people feel safe to
share their ideas and challenge things and to bring up new,
innovative ideas and I've been open to them.
And if I've been more than comfortable to say to a coach,
that's a great idea,
you design the plan now,
how we're going to implement it and you run it when we go out and train
and let's go forward.
they walk out of the room, you know,
eight foot tall because, geez,
I just threw an idea up there.
I've only been here for two years and the coach has given me ownership of
bringing this to life.
So you want to see the research they then do into it and the planning they do
to make it successful when it's like theirs to run with.
I've always been open to say let's share our ideas safely,
challenge each other.
And, but, you know,
when the decision's made, we're all in it together.
Incredible life of leadership that you've had,
which I've enjoyed every minute of it.
I've asked this question of everyone.
I'm fascinated with,
you because I've got no idea which way you're going to go with this,
but who is the greatest leader in your life?
Oh, gee, I don't know.
That's a very tough one.
I reckon there's a combination of my immediate family,
my kids and my wife.
They show great leadership in holding me accountable to who I am.
You know, they know sometimes I'll go out of my way to maybe do the right
thing by people as opposed to maybe what's right for,
And they challenge me on it.
And you know what, when they do,
it makes me sit up and take notice.
I love the fact that, you know,
within your family environment to have a 17 year old girl tell their dad
that what he did there doesn't really fit with our values is pretty
And I love that fact, but.
I've had some wonderful leaders that I've been involved with over a long
as my coach for 10 years was the longest tenure.
I learned a massive amount from the way Mick went about it,
Mick had an unbelievably clear vision to be the best defensive team in the,
And he got us all to buy into that across the board.
Peter Matera wanted to help us be the best defensive team in the competition.
People may not realize that as attacking and as brilliant as he was.
We were all committed to it.
achieving that and achieving it for a number of years to help us win two
it certainly made it clear to me that having one person having a clear vision,
but getting everyone to buy into it is,
is the key thing.
I've got many more questions.
Maybe love to do it again sometime.
it's a life full of great values,
great discipline.
Certainly a fair amount of fear that you imparted on a few over the journey
You're calm and calculated and,
and brilliant in how you share it.
It's been a great pleasure to chat to you.
thanks for your time and always great to see you.
very much my pleasure,
Empowering Leaders was presented by me,
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