How do you learn to trust yourself to make the right calls and know that the path you are taking
is the right one? G'day, it's Luke Darson. The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on
and off the field has been a lifelong passion of mine. With one of my oldest friends, we created
a leader collective. I've had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders in education,
sport, industry, and the arts that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style
of leadership where everyone has a voice. In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic
leaders. I was joined by a person who always seems to be ahead of the curve, founder of Smiling
Minds, Janie Martino. We talk about how she connected meditation and technology, how to
navigate through the tough times in business and fostering a great culture at work and at home.
Well, this feels like the impossible task to do justice to Janie Martino's life's
story. I'm going to give it a try off the top, but I might start, and I'm happy to be fact-checked
here, but I believe at 14 years and 18 months, Janie Martino was wandering around Chadston
Shopping Centre here in Melbourne with her CV looking to land her first job, which she duly did.
By the time she was in year 12, a few years later, she was holding down two jobs, but was academically
good enough to effectively have any course available to her. She ended up going to RMI
to university here in Melbourne, studying a Bachelor of Public Relations, majoring in psychology.
Aged 25, founded Undertow Media. She was the CEO and ended up with a staff of over 30, which she
sold to Bastion Group. She went on to co-found the Smiling Mind app as a social venture, which is just
one of the most extraordinary stories. To have 600,000 monthly users with Smiling Mind is simply
staggering. And in the process of learning how to raise funds in the not-for-profit space, Janie
created the Shout app, which she then went on to sell to the ANZ Bank. She's been an angel investor
in many startups, including in the incredible story of Unlocked.
She went on to become the CEO, which I'm keen to discuss in a moment's time. On top of that, Janie
is a mother to three teenage boys and is also working on her latest venture, which I believe
is in the wellness media space. Janie Martino, great to meet you. Thanks for joining me today.
Thanks, Luke. So good to be here.
Incredible drive from such a young age. If I've got my facts right,
where did that drive come from at 14 years of age?
Yeah, no, your facts were spot on. I had my top 10 list.
And I think, yeah, where I landed was in the top five. I just was born that way. I
come from a family. My dad's an academic. My mom's a librarian.
Had a really simple, lovely upbringing. There wasn't huge expectations. I just think
I have a naturally curious mind and I am inherently pretty fearless. And so the
combination of the two just...
That just means that I'll give most things a go. And that's from a very early age. It's always
been part of me and who I am. And also I've been pretty disruptive all along as well. So I think
that's the other piece. Every school report, literally from prep right through senior school,
I was disruptive in class, talking, answering back. So yeah, I think it's a deadly combo.
Well, the fearless...
Certainly rings true. And in doing my research for this conversation with you, there were
a lot of themes that came up regularly in what you've done in your life and taking a leap and
the courage to jump into something. And I have these words attributed to, which again, I hope
are correct. And you say that a large amount of the shift in your mental state, energy and
opportunity will never come while you're getting ready for the leap. The whole point of the leap
is actually having no safety net. And is that accurate? And it seems as though you've just
had incredible courage to just jump in.
Go after something with everything you've got.
Yeah, I think that's very accurate. I think also it's easier to do when the reason you're doing it
is because it feels like the right path for you and it feels purposeful. And I always find that
when I do things for those reasons, then it feels natural. It feels like the right thing to do.
I also make sure that...
I don't overthink things and I don't have a lot in my mind. And if I do, I feel like I can process
and tell the difference between fear and reality. And so that's been super helpful
as well. And to have in my kit bag, that's definitely helped with the leaps.
Well, it certainly is unique in some ways, Jane. And I relate to that, but I also see lots of
people who spend their life in industries or jobs that they don't have purpose because it's a mean
to an end. And that fear of once you start a family or you get the financial security of what
a job offers you and seeing people trapped in that space, but clearly from a young age,
sense of purpose and then the courage to follow it. It feels like that is the new currency. People
talk about purpose now, purpose-driven organizations, but you're definitely ahead of the
curve on that one.
Yeah. And I think it's also just following what you love and what feels good. And I think for me,
and sometimes that's been a really hard decision to make as well, because I'm not living up to
social constructs or my friends and family's expectations or things that even inherently,
I feel I probably should do, or I owe it to someone to do this or see it through. But
I think the most important thing and how we can really thrive and feel purposeful is actually
doing what feels right.
And I believe you always have a choice. And sometimes that means doing hard things. Sometimes
that means renting instead of buying a house and having a mortgage because yeah, you really
don't like the job you're doing. And so I think we do always have a choice, but we build these
constructs around us that create the reasons why not and the reasons to be fearful. And so
it's whether or not we're willing to knock a few of those things down.
Yeah. It's a great thought. And you had the courage at 25 years of age, having some PR experience
and studied PR to go, I'm ready to take the leap and start your own business, which was a great
success, Undertow Media, that you went on to sell to the Bastion Group. Success was, as I said in
the intro, you're looking back at yourself as a 25-year-old leader. What type of leader were you?
I don't think I was a particularly good leader. I think there were things I was good at. I was
really good at selling a vision, leading a team, getting everyone to pull together. But I feel
like I was a terrible micromanager. I didn't understand how I could help someone else feel
way more purposeful if I didn't give them the level of direction I felt they needed.
And I actually understood that the people that work with and for me are probably very different
to me. And so therefore, I need to adapt. And I think that's a really good point.
My leadership style, I look back on that and cringe at times for sure. But in saying that,
I also had the person that took over as CEO was with me from pretty much day one of that agency.
So I know that I built something really special from a cultural perspective. But as an individual
leader, I feel like I am so different now. And like you'd want to be, right?
And it's literally decades down the line. But you would hope there would be an enormous amount
of personal growth and leadership growth. But I still believe that so much of how we lead comes
down to our personalities and our strengths and also our weaknesses. And so I think the other
thing about me at that time is I always knew best. I felt like that was part of being a leader,
to be strong, to be always having this...
Rather than now, I realize I actually just share that I don't know all the answers. And the older
I get and the more experienced I get, the less I feel like I know. And the more I want people's
contribution and for them to lead and do what they're good at and for me to celebrate and just
sit back and enjoy that. So I think it was an amazing honor to start a business at that age.
But it was also something that I probably...
I probably hadn't been out in the world enough to realize that to be a really good leader,
I didn't have to have the answer to everything.
Most people haven't got the self-reflection that you've got there, Janie, to actually
understand that and understand their development. But did you look back and think, did that affect
some of the relationships that you worked in within the business? Was that something that
you'd like to have had your time again differently? Or was it just you at 25 doing the best you could?
Yeah, I think for sure.
Would I lead differently now? Yes, I absolutely would. Would I probably get more and contribute
more to my team? Definitely. But I don't think about it often. I feel like I've also worked
with leaders along the way that I've loved them warts and all. I mean, I don't... And we are
completely imperfect. And so I really think that what I built in the team I work with,
many of whom sort of have...
Followed me around and I do still have contact with today, would feel that and they would know
and probably have seen in other ways that the shift and change in me and probably in themselves.
I think one thing I love is that now I've been kicking around for a while, I've also had the
opportunity that people that have worked for me have gone out on their own and run their own
business or been a leader. And often their reflection is, wow, this is really hard.
I didn't realize...
Probably gave you a hard time or I was critical. And I think when we then sit in the leader's
chair, we actually have a lot more empathy as well. So I think that that plays into it also.
Yeah, it's a great perspective. And as you said, at 25, you would clearly think over time,
you are going to evolve and develop and not many had the courage first and foremost to do what you
did at that age. Now you have, as I said in the intro, and there's so much more to what you've
And what are you like now as a leader, Janie, when you look back and compare,
what are the things that you've added to the way that you lead the groups that you work with now?
Well, I definitely am still a really decisive and visionary leader. I think people really
need that and respect that. But I'm much better at including everyone in that process and also
I'm really making sure that actually it's much more about we,
and what we have done, and not at all I. And I think, so the level of humility that I bring to the things I do,
I definitely think as well, I've always been a really positive and empowering person. But I really,
what I think I bring to the table, and whether it's my own business or someone I'm working with,
is really positivity and perspective. So I think...
I probably didn't have... I was much more tunnel vision. So I've got a lot better at standing back
and actually taking a breath and whether it's my own business or helping those I'm sort of working
with to see things from different perspectives. And look, I have to say meditation and mindfulness
has been key in building all of this, in my opinion. It's been the foundation. I've done
a lot of work on myself as well.
And have a black book of all kinds of professionals. But I also think, my goodness,
the ability to have more empathy, to regulate my emotions far better, to see and not take
things personally, all of those beautiful gifts that it's given me has definitely enhanced my
leadership so much. Yeah, so much to talk about on the back of what you said, Dan. And it's probably
one of the misunderstood things sometimes, isn't it? About the practice of meditation,
sort of mindfulness, is that it has that flow and effect and you lower your nervous system and
you recover better and you make better decisions and you can lead as you just described in ways
that you hadn't before. I definitely want to get to Smiley Mind, but you're picking up a language
that we're talking about a lot in the leadership spaces, that shift now from the old hierarchy
corner office of a boss that was command and control to more collaborative and more
inclusive in the way. Are you seeing leaders that you're working with that are that way now? And
you're saying, yeah, I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good
thing. Are you seeing it as a much more effective way, the 21st century style of leadership?
Oh, definitely. I think they're everywhere. And I think that the next generation of people
working alongside leaders demand that. And I know it's the same with parenting and it's the same on
the footy field, in my opinion. It's sort of, you see the coaches that actually sit alongside
and genuinely coach. And that's the definition of what that is.
Um, rather than the ones that just stand there and say, do this, do that. Uh, so yeah, I think
it's a combination of general higher levels of consciousness and enlightenment around what
actually helps people flourish and be their best at work and as, as people and how to build culture,
but also an uprising and a demand from people to, uh, and probably also the courage to articulate
As well as a team, you know, I think, um, and, and having, you know, platforms like culture amp and,
and, and things that force the conversation around whether it's anonymous or not, like,
you know, what's working for you, what's not. And so leaders have no choice, but to,
to take that on board pretty much on a month to month, quarter to quarter basis.
Yeah. It's, uh, absolutely how we're seeing it, certainly in the sporting context, we're just
seeing, you know, the next generation, if they haven't got a voice in their environment and in
the past environment that I played in and grew up in was, you just didn't get a say and it wasn't
an option. And no matter how much experience you weren't even thought about, uh, you know,
questioning the coach or trying to add something really in that time. And so, as you said, there's
a generation that just won't tolerate that. If they're not in an environment where they don't
feel like they've got a voice and they can collaborate, then they'll move environments
or they'll get out and they'll do something different, which again, is a credit in some
ways to the next generation of, uh, of what they value and how they see it. There's so much, uh,
there, Janie, that I want to chat to you about, but we jumped into the meditation and, uh, I have
to go to Smiling Mind, which is just an incredible achievement, an incredible story, uh, that you and
James Tutton, who started Moonlight Cinema, to have that vision ahead of its time. I've, uh,
been fortunate enough at a young age to have found, uh, meditation. I've been passionate about
it for, for a long, long while, but, you know, I look back and think you bringing meditation to an
app, you bringing it was, you know, there's a fair bit of, um, hierarchy in the meditation space too.
Get their nose out of joint. You can't put, uh, meditation, you know, into, into the app space,
but you broke a lot of rules, but the impact you've had having 600,000 users monthly is a
great achievement. You must, you must look back with a lot of pride of, of, uh, creating Smiling
Mind and bringing meditation mainstream. I definitely do. I, it's the most joyful
thing I've done in my whole career, you know, and I think it's so funny because
you would look at a person's CV or, you know, their net worth or whatever. However, externally
people may view success. And obviously I've never earned a dime. It's a not-for-profit organization
and it's by far the best thing I've done in my entire career, you know? And so to me, yeah,
it's a really strong reminder of what success means to me. Um, and I get the joy every,
you know, uh, of, of hearing people say, I use that, that's helped my child be able to go to
school. I, now my kids can sleep well, you know, all those types of things. So I'm definitely proud,
but I also use it as, you know, to touch on what we talked about at the outset as an example of
how to be courageous and how important it is to be courageous because James and I started that 10
years ago. And we went,
even though it was a not-for-profit, we went about it and did a business plan
and went around and spoke to an extraordinary amount of people at the time. And like I'm
talking, you know, probably sub a hundred people, um, and thought we just had the best idea, you
know, how to build the, you know, a preventative mental health tool and embedded in the curriculum
and, uh, let's do it through technology. It can all be free and fully accessible. And literally
less than a handful of people told us it was a good idea.
And that they would support it. Like I've never had so many no's with anything I've done. You
know, um, you shouldn't combine technology and meditation. Kids will never do it. They never
sit still, you know, this doesn't belong in the classroom, all kinds of objections. And now it's
on 6 million devices around the country. And so we have been part of introducing, you know, as you,
and there's that many monthly actives, as you say, it's in a third of classrooms. So
we've been part of introducing people to a tool and especially over the last few years that
can potentially help transform their lives. And, you know, that to me is why whenever you feel
strongly about your purpose or something you should be doing, you should take the leap.
And what a gift isn't, as you said, the preventative mental health space and arming
kids, you know, at school age with something that they can self-regulate with and can control
their own mental health.
And, and have that quiet time opportunity. And I, I can't help, but in the same context,
Janie, you and I are sitting in a city called Melbourne in Australia that, uh, unfortunately
has the record now for the most locked down city in the world. And if you read any of the data out
there, uh, that can unfortunately be hard to find. We feel like there's a tsunami of mental health
issues coming our way, not only here in Melbourne, but around the world with kids having been
denied access to school for, for, for whatever reasons without having any political commentary
around it. But I think everyone can agree.
That social experiment is going to cause a strain mental health-wise on the next generation.
You know, Smiling Mind has been a great contributor, an extraordinary story.
Is it need more funding? What else do we need to do to try and, I suppose, counteract what I think
all of us are seeing coming as being a real wave of mental health dramas like we've never seen
before in kids? Yeah, well, we actually just this week have
released our state of mind report and there's some pretty damning statistics in that, in that
I think it was 41% of parents believe the pandemic has had negative, negative impacts on the mental
wellbeing of their kids. And that, yeah, 78% of Aussies actually have experienced poor mental
health over the course of the last 12 months. So that is, I don't, I, I've never heard statistics
like it. And we have done this report for a number of years. Um, so we're certainly using
that as a platform to talk, not just about additional funding and all of the things,
but I think actually most of the community and the government understand and know,
but actually about prevention, you know, because we sit in the preventative space and that doesn't
mean that, um, we don't move into the critical space and lots of clinicians and headspace clinics
and GPs recommend, uh, Smiling Mind, which we're so grateful for. Um, but actually the importance
of the funding and support being directed towards prevention, because at the moment it's, it's a
Sliver. And that if we don't start actually focusing more on, on that, then we're going
to get, continue to get the blockage that we have at the critical care end. Um, so that's really
what I, you know, what we're going to, and I would love to talk to anyone who'll listen about
is, um, yeah, how to build, how to build resilience and how to build that into people's everyday
Yeah, absolutely. The, the numbers that are tattooed in my brain at the moment,
which you may or may not have read as well, is just, you know, the, the,
in particular here in Melbourne, about 830 in the teenage girl bracket are diagnosed with an eating
disorder every week. We've got self-harming at record levels. We've got, uh, admissions to
emergency with parents so concerned about suicidal ideation in Melbourne, as you said, that's
catching at an end where that system's already overwhelmed and to get an appointment now in our
city for psychologists, from what I understand is almost, uh, impossible for about 18 months. But
she said to put some resources back into the preventative space makes a lot of sense, doesn't
it? And, and, and that was,
10 years ago that you and James were running around having a thought that very few people
wanted to support. It's, uh, it seems like that is the story of you, Janie, that you, you seem to be
a few years ahead of everyone else. Is that been something that you've had a bit of intuition on,
and not only in the meditation and smiling mind space, but in the other areas you've gone into?
I think so. I, well, I think I've just followed my intuition wherever I've gone. And I guess
that's where it's taken me.
I think sometimes with things,
you can be too early as well. Like I think, you know, and so with smiling mind, we were just so
lucky that we did have enough people who believed, even though it was a very small group. And we
actually had a beautiful call with them on Friday, um, to say, thank you, you know, and mark the 10
years and say, if you hadn't actually said yes. And, and, um, you know, thought we were a bit
crazy, but backed us anyway, then smiling mind wouldn't exist. So, you know, I think, yeah,
but I, I definitely feel like I,
I have done things that seem unusual to many people at the time. Um, and I like doing new
things. I love, I love doing new things personally and trying new things. So I think it's also that
sense of curiosity, as I touched on before, um, that feels satiated by doing something that perhaps
people haven't done before.
Janie, what advice would you give to someone listening to this who may be, you know,
is in the middle of a startup phase or thinking about starting a business,
this is someone who's jumped in and, and done it with great courage. What, what advice would you
give? Well, I think there's a couple of things. One is look out for, um, the trough of sorrow,
which is just a normal, I think they call it, if you Google it, I'm pretty sure it's called that,
um, a normal phase. Like everyone you read in the paper about all of these startups getting
funded and you see all the great bits, but actually behind that newsprint, uh, some pretty
grueling experiences. Um, and I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's
experiences from all businesses and all founders. So I think, you know, understanding and knowing
that everyone has experienced those and you're not alone is really important. And to that point,
absolutely making sure that you have two things. One is that you have a professional
network around you who might've done it before, be good or strong at things that you're not so
good at and that you can really lean on. So, you know, when things aren't going as well as planned,
and when they are, um, but also then on the personal front, like I've seen so many founders
and I've definitely been one myself that has put a lot of other things before their wellbeing
and thinks that they're doing it for the benefit of the business and the benefit of the shareholders.
And that is never the case. And I have to catch myself constantly to be balanced. And so it's a
lifelong journey when you're, you know, naturally entrepreneurial,
I think, but I have learned that when I'm good, the business is so much better and the team feels
better and I can give more and I'm still there in one piece at the end of the day, you know,
for my family. So, and the boys. So I think, yeah, that, that's the, the two support have like a,
you know, a squad around you on both sides. To change gear and delve into the story of,
of Unlocked, which was another of the businesses that you ended up becoming,
CEO of, it was initially founded by a guy called Matt Berryman. It was an extraordinary app. It had,
you know, over 330, 30,000 active users at the time. It was geared towards Android,
Android phones, I understand, and advertising and getting rewards for, for advertising views.
And it was a pioneering in a sense. And just before you were about to IPO, and I think you're
the CEO at the time, Janie, Google took it off the Google Play store. And we understand there's
been some injunctions that, again, it's been a bit of a, it's been a bit of a, it's been a bit of a
Google for it, but that must've been an extraordinary time to be CEO of a company
about to go into an IPO listing and to have all that turmoil. How were you as a leader in that
challenging time? Yeah, this is the thing I like talking about the most. A, because, well,
not because it was so traumatic, because that, that's exactly what it was. But because I think
it's the best example I have of what happens when you create a really special culture.
Of, in particular, transparency, trust and transparency. So that business had 60 employees
across the world. It was what everyone would class as absolutely flying. It had a capital
register to die for, you know, with the who's who. I took over as, as CEO, as you said, and
yeah, we were literally a couple of months from IPO. And what, during the time,
when we got notification from Google, we were communicating with the team and kept them up to
speed the whole time. And that was because we'd always, since the business started, had
just such a trust with them. We shared all the numbers, we shared everything that happened in
the business and we decided that this was no different. And so right before things were not
looking so good, we were looking, it looked like we had to put the business into administration.
And we actually said to the team, we want you to look after yourselves. We want you to
go and find, find work. So many of them had families, commitments, mortgages,
and they'd just given everything to the business. They're just the most wonderful team.
And not one of them did that. And I still, to this day, and I still obviously speak and have
friendships with many of them. It was the most humbling, incredible experience as, you know,
Maddie created a lot of that as the founder, but just, they were so committed that even
sacrificing, you know, their own personal situations, they weren't going to leave us
standing there alone. And I, I just think that is, it was just the most amazing return on
investment, allowing them the safe space to be trusted. You know, we, we would have very honest
conversations as teams. We knew what wasn't working. We'd be frank about it. We'd be honest
about that. And, and we were very clear if this trust is ever broken or anything leaks,
then it's disappearing. But until then we trust you implicitly. And, and what that created
meant that we, we were standing there with solidarity till the very end. And that was
pretty special. Yeah. Amazing to think back at that and see it as the, as a great story,
isn't it? Through that challenging time. And, you know, Matt, your co-founder had some really
public issues with his own mental health at that stage and had to step away from the role. And,
and suddenly it's you in the chair and you mentioned, you know, you had the who's who list
of, of, of capital investors as well, but that is brilliant. But I'm assuming that comes with
the level of pressure as well. I don't think you could think of a more, I suppose, pressure
filled environment for, for a CEO was, was, were they supportive as well? Did you have moments
where you felt like it was getting on top of you or was it all just transparency and you got through
it, you know, smoothly? Oh, I look back now and I think, you know, I mean,
I went through in that period, um, a marriage separation and that happening in the business.
And I look back now and think, well, wow, I'm obviously pretty strong, but also one thing I do
reflect on is I did manage to keep a really level head. I had a broken heart by the end of it for
sure, because of what happened and seeing, you know, what an amazing business end up where it
did, but I really owed so much.
Of that to meditation and the practice that I had to keep my mind clear and strong, um, and keep my,
my body grounded. Um, I still remember like there's things that have happened probably since
then that are not even close to as stressful and I might feel more overwhelmed. So I can't
really explain why that is, whether it's because I felt like as the leader, that's what my job was.
My job was to be,
the one that was steadfast and, and strong, um, in saying that, you know, telling the staff,
I, I expressed emotion and they could tell how devastated and sad I was. And I was completely
comfortable with that as well. So I think, yeah, the shareholders though were, were fantastic.
Um, but again, we communicated with them really well. So I think the key is always
communication and being yourself as a leader.
I think I just was myself.
Incredible. And that, uh, you know, it's amazing to, to stand you in that sort of good stand under
that sort of pressure you mentioned. And I wanted to touch on this as well. Um, you know, three
teenage boys, you had three boys here back to back to back. That is an extraordinary while you're
running businesses. And then you mentioned, you know, separating as well through, through that
time. And I mean, it's, how did you manage that? How did you manage the parenting part and, and
the entrepreneur, entrepreneurial part at the same time?
I think I was so lucky because Matt, um, stayed at home with the boys and back then that was still
very different, a different sort of choice to make. And he was incredible. Um, and still he is
such a great dad. And I think the thing that made it easier is like every minute of, of the,
you know, the time we were together to now, um, we've been great friends and we've co-parented
really positive, healthy way. Um, and so I'm very grateful for that. And we literally,
you know, we always maintain weekly family dinners and things like that. So when you're in
that stressful environment of work, but even though you're going through something,
you have the consistency of your family. It just looks, the composition of it is just a little bit
different. That helps a lot. Um, because I didn't have to deal with a lot of the other challenges
that can come with it. Um, and so I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really,
I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really,
that process. So I'm very grateful. And I feel like, um, what I would say to people that,
you know, and everyone does, right? Like no matter whether you're running your own business or in
someone else's business or working part-time, you are juggling. Um, and so what I would say to that
is do everything you can to make sure you can have the healthiest possible relationships. And that
will support you. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really,
at work because you're, you know, between work and home, that's where you spend all your time.
So if you can foster a great culture at work and the best possible relationships you can have,
even if they're not conventional at home, then that, that really is a strong foundation to
weather the storms that inevitably come. I think 50% of relationships end up in
separation. And so, you know, you're talking to,
half of people here, but not many do the separation part. Well, from what I can see,
a lot of it ends in the person that you had kids with, you really become, you know,
arch enemies or dysfunctional in the end. It's, you know, certain leadership to be able to get
that right. If you've got, you know, it's maybe a too personal question, but the advice, clearly
you've done that well for the three boys and managed to keep that balance. Well, is it something
that you really thought about and applied a lot of your leadership to? Definitely. I think,
jokes that I wrote an email and we sent it out to our nearest and dearest. And he's like,
it was like a press release. So I definitely use some of my skills apparently, but no,
but I think we, again, about communication, what we wanted that to say to everybody at the same
time was we are okay with this and yes, it's really hard, but we are still a family and
there's no sides to be taken.
We want you to treat us exactly the same way. And so we wanted to set the tone for that.
And then we just decided to commit to live to that. And, and that literally our boys were
number one. And even when it gets tough and you feel frustrated or that you just anchor back to
that. And so we really did work hard. And I think the other thing was we, we probably went through
the process when we still had a great relationship and a,
a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,
a very strong friendship. And so that, that definitely helped. And that's almost like, I,
I couldn't think of a better person or someone I would want to have a family with. So in that
sense, there's no, it's just also the acceptance of like with your career relationships are no
different. Families are no different. There's, you know, all different phases and all different
ways that things can look and that's okay. Like we don't have to live up to these constructs and,
and have things turn out a certain way. Like we can decide that.
Yeah. Thanks, Janie, for sharing that. It's a common path clearly, but as you said,
they don't have to look conventional. You can still have success and happiness. And
if you approach it the way you do, I like the idea of a press release too. That sounds
as though you had that sorted as well. We've been talking to a whole range of different leaders
and identifying, Janie, what we feel are the dimensions of what makes great leaders in the
21st century. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
Clearly a lot of that language is your language and the way that you approach your life, but
keen for you to be as expansive as you like on these different dimensions of leadership. So
feel free to take as little or as a longer time as you like, but self-leadership is one of the
dimensions we feel really passionate about. When I ask you about self-leadership, what does that
mean to you? I think, well, for me, it's making decisions that are really good for me and that
will bring out the best in me. Like if I'm leading a team,
like I, that, that's my responsibility when I'm leading a team is to make decisions that are
really good for them as individuals and as a group. And so to me, that's what self-leadership
means is, is I'm steering my course and keeping in mind when I do that, my needs and what is
going to help me flourish and succeed. So, yeah, I guess that's my responsibility as
my self-leader and I've gotten a lot better at that. Like I, I think I used to focus a lot more
on shoulds than I do. And I think being a better self-leader, I've, I've over time got rid of that.
So yeah, I think that that would be a big one for sure. Yeah. Great. Positively impacting others
in your environment is something we're seeing as a, as a common dimension or trait for different
leaders. How do you think that's going to impact others in your environment?
Think about positively impacting others, Janie. Well, I think, yeah, my favourite, one of my
favourite TED Talks is the lollipop moment. I don't know whether you've caught that one, but
it's the best. And I talk about this a lot and I try and really live it. It's about,
you can have a moment where you do something really simple and it could just be greeting
someone or complimenting someone, or...
Doing something kind for someone. And it has an incredible impact on them that you don't even
know or understand. And so, yeah, so that for me is making sure that I'm someone that people enjoy
being around and that I actually care about those people and I ask them about themselves and,
and I know about them and I remember things that are important to them, I think is how you can have
positive impact. And I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.
We often feel like we have to be a certain someone or in a certain position to do that. And I think
if you watch this TED Talk, what you see is you, you can be anyone, anytime and make a positive
impact on your environment. The lollipop moment. I'll check it out. And I love your philosophy
there, Janie. It's such a link to so many others. You don't have to be, you know, have a leadership
title to have a positive impact. It's, as you said, it's just, it's the greeting, it's the smile,
Remembering something about someone that they perhaps didn't think you would.
The opportunity is there, isn't it? Every moment to have a positive impact. And
sounds like you think about that a lot of... You mentioned about creating a vision. It sounds like
this is going to be a sweet spot for you, Janie, looking at what you've done. Can you, can you tell
us about how you've gone about creating and sharing your visions?
Yeah, I always, things just come to me in really strange ways. Like I, I remember a few years
before I started Undertow Media, I was looking at mum and dad's, this sounds so nerdy, but there's
this really big dictionary and it just happened to be open at a page and the word Undertow was there.
And I thought, and the definition that something beneath the surface is stronger than what's above.
And I was like, wow, that's really powerful. That's, when I have my business, that's how I
want it to be. I just want it to be that whatever we do is so powerful, you know? And so I registered
the business name like three years before I started it. You know, so I just, then when I
have a vision and pull it together, I guess it's also about building visually around that,
how it's going to be in the world. Like that's a really important part for me. I know everyone's
different, but for me, I need to see what the brand will look like. I need to see what would
it look like if it's up on a website? I need to see what the brand will look like. I need to see
what the brand will look like if it's up on a billboard, you know, like what does that,
yeah, how does it look and how does it feel? And then I can create the plan and the process and
the structure. So it's almost like I need to get that creative bit out of my system.
And then I can get down to the things that are probably less exciting, but just as important.
So that's for me how I do it. And then I'll share it with people and get their opinion,
which I have to always brace myself for.
And you found it different.
Clearly from Smiling Mind to what you did with Undertone Media at a young age and what you've
done in so many different areas. Have you found that people can get that when you visually paint
that that's obviously clear to you? Does it take more explanation or have you found you've been
able to get that across pretty well? I think when you create a visual of how
something will be in the world, it's so much easier for other people to grasp as well and
see your vision. And perhaps that's why I do it because that's probably the most important thing.
It's probably what I need as well. So I, you know, and it depends how you learn as well and
connect with things, doesn't it? And obviously that's the type of, I'm a visual learner,
obviously, but I think, yeah, for me, it helps me talk about it probably with a bit more conviction
as well. So hopefully that helps people connect with it also.
You mentioned curiosity a lot, and that's another dimension we see is really identifiable in leaders
in the 21st century.
Style of leadership and then curiosity probably through the lens of approaching learning and
development. Can you talk about what curiosity and how you then go about your learning and
development? Yeah. So I, my curiosity is my learning and development. I think I've always
done by doing, I call it the school of life. Always people. Yeah. My boys will probably be
listening to this and quote it back to me, but I always say when people are thinking of
going on to do more study, which I think is, is so valid. And, and obviously my father's an academic.
I respect it greatly, but I also think and say, don't do that at the expense of also what you
could learn and experience in the school of life. So I think for me, that's my learning and
development. I've done various sort of courses and things, but I love getting involved and doing
things I've never done before. And for me, that's my learning and development. I've done various
courses and things, but I love getting involved and doing things I've never done before. And for
me, there is no better learning and development than that. Like you just go up the curve so
quickly because you're thrown in the deep end. And my curiosity has caused me to want to apply
the skills that I have and what I'm good at to many different things. So whether that's being
on the board of Melbourne football club, you know, and applying what I know about, about business
and wellbeing and marketing and digital to a football club, um, or
whether that's, you know, getting involved in a startup in the property space, you know, it just,
it's, I believe being able to apply what you have in your toolkit to something new, um, and also
learn a whole new industry and environment is just so valuable from a learning and development
point of view. So that's really what I've focused on. And probably to be honest, like I've really
focused on my personal development. And so I think that's, I think that's, I think that's
and I've probably prioritized that. And I feel like that has been just as powerful in my
professional life, the work I've done on myself, um, and how I've evolved than it has been in my
personal life. Yeah. Brilliant. I was going to get to the Melbourne footy club board, which you
spent five years on and who just won their first premiership after 57 years. Uh, an amazing story.
Unfortunately, at the expense of the club that I, uh, was hoping was, uh, was going,
but they were amazing in a grand final and what a, what a transition it was after that amount of
time. It's a, it's another great story for, for another time, but it's a diverse range of, uh,
of interest that you've had, uh, Janie and applied your skills to a long, uh, over a long period of
time. Um, communicating with clarity is something that we talk about a lot, Janie, given you founded
a communications business effectively at 25 years of age, how do you approach that?
Well, I've actually, it's funny. I started out in communications because it,
has been probably the most helpful thing in business because you're communicating with
stakeholders all the time. And I think what it taught me was to not only how to communicate
clearly and succinctly, but also to think about who I'm communicating to. Cause that's like PR
101, right? It's like, who's the target audience, you know, do your background research. But so
often in business, we just kind of,
we're so busy and there's so much going on. We don't actually sit back and say,
Oh, actually, if I just communicate this message to my team in the same way I am communicating it
to my shareholders, that needs a very different approach. Definitely thinking about stakeholder
management and target audience and, and understanding that and, and taking the time
to really think about the messages that will resonate to different people and how to deliver
Um, is, is something that I've, I've been very grateful for my whole career because I've had it
in my, in my, um, backpack.
Um, collaboration, uh, how important is collaboration to you?
I think there's a time and place for collaboration. Like I think I love collaborating and I,
I particularly in the not-for-profit space, duplication is one thing that makes me feel
like we're just being ineffective with resources that are already there.
Quite, you know, well, they're sparing. Um, but I think there's also important to know
what's more powerful to collaborate on and choose that really carefully because I think
collaboration is also complex and, you know, pulling multiple parties together,
getting them to move in the same direction, getting the results that collectively everyone
benefits. So I think it's about choosing where's the power in doing things as a group.
And where is there actually power sometimes in doing things more individually, uh, and being
quite selective about that? Cause otherwise you just get drawn into a vortex of group think and
doing things by committee, which sometimes that can be the death of the very best ideas.
Interesting perspective, you know, because clearly, you know, to get some of the things
done you've had, you've had great collaborations and great success, but it clearly there's a part
of you that at the end of the day, you're not going to be the same person. You're not going to
when the decision needs to be made as a leader, you're, you're comfortable in, in that, in your
own skin enough to do that regularly. Is that, is that a fair reflection of what you, what you said?
I think so. I think you have to, as a leader, you, and I, I will often, there are key people
in my circle that I will pressure test things with before I make final decisions, especially
if they're big ones, but yeah, like I'm, I'm happy to back myself to make a decision. I'm
also happy to back myself to make a decision. I'm also happy to back myself to make a decision.
I'm also happy to say that was the wrong one and I'm sorry. And what do we do now? That's also the,
you know, you don't just get to make decisions and they all work out well. So as long as you
realise that and are comfortable with it and you feel like you're solution oriented enough to,
if it is the wrong one, work out what you're going to do, then yeah, I think, I think it's a good way
to be and a clear way to lead. Jane, I've got a couple of final questions for you. I've been
asking you a lot about the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about
the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about the, about the,
who is the greatest leader in your life? To be honest, my kids.
Yeah. The three boys. Yeah. What, why, why does that, you thought about it and then you,
you went straight to the kids? Well, I just, because if I look over my life,
the thing I've, I've learnt so many things from so many great people and I could sit here and
reel off names of very well-known people that have had a huge impact in my life. And,
I'm not taking away from that. But if I look at cumulatively the amount I grow and learn
and get, and what makes me better, it is absolutely my boys. And I think, I hope it's
also because I've brought them up to say what they think and they call me on stuff constantly.
And, you know, and they also give me the opportunity to know myself better and
realize that there can be someone who's been around the block way less times, but can actually
be far more wise than I can. And I think that's a really important lesson to understand, especially,
you know, when I used to be a 25-year-old know-it-all. I think, you know, it's, it's
pretty transformative. So yeah, I, I think, and we underestimate our young people way too much.
Yeah. Way too much. I mean, yeah, my, my boys have said and done some of the most powerful things,
you know, that I'm just blown away by, so proud of, but they're not, they're not, you know,
winning best and fairest at footy. They're not getting certain grades. They're, you know,
one of them breaking up with his girlfriend, not coping very well. And
I think I need to see our psychologist. Like that for me was just an amazing leadership moment
because I, and I said to him, oh my God, it's taken me 40 years to get to the point where I say,
I need help. And you are, it's just astounding. So, you know, I think if we look a little more to
that are younger than us, I think we can learn so much.
What a brilliant story, Jane, isn't it? The mirror up from parenting is such a,
an intense thing, isn't it? And if we try and look away from it and, and as you said,
the lessons are there and how awesome to have young males in the next generation, as you said,
you know, my generation would have been nowhere near the capability of doing that and to understand
that that is actually the strength of being able to work out that clearly we all need help and to
get that at a young age. What a, what a brilliant moment for you to have,
in the spirit of, of collaboration, asking this question as well. And I loved your answer before
about your sense of self strong enough that you pick and choose your collaboration. But
if there was one person in the world you could collaborate with, who would it be?
Well, it depends. I mean, it depends whether we're thinking,
you know, thinking, I mean, music, it'd be Lady Gaga, obviously.
So, you know, I'd love to do a collab with her. I don't know that I bring much,
to the table though, Luke, so I don't think we can count that.
I think she would be very happy to get your phone call, Janie,
Lady Gaga, if she's listening.
But I'd have to say Brene Brown.
I do have Brene on my vision board and joke with my friends
that we will be besties one day.
She's taught me a lot.
I feel like, you know, what we could collaborate
on would be unbelievable for the world and we'd bring different
strengths to the table and I would just love to work with her.
I think the message that she has for the world
and what she's been able to do through her TED Talks
and then the work since I think is powerful for people personally,
powerful for people in business and the Dare to Lead sort
And, you know, for business I think is transformative.
So, yeah, she'd definitely be up there with Lady Gaga.
Oh, what a great answer.
You know, the power of vulnerability and vulnerability
as a strength has had such an impact on so many people.
Her work is incredible.
That would be a collaboration I'd like to be in the meeting on.
I understand you're working on something.
I'm not sure how much you can let us know, but what's the next venture?
Is it in the world as media space?
Did I read that correctly?
Yes, I've been chipping away at – I had a bolt
I had a bolt of inspiration a year or so ago to really bring together –
well, one of my best friends describes it as a scalable genie.
It's basically an opportunity for people to diagnose
where they sit on a wellbeing scale in a science, you know,
from an evidence-based perspective, and then from that build basically
a dynamic daily dose of wellbeing content.
It's delivered in a really unique way, and it's really – it's pulling content
from all around the world, video, audio, you know,
excerpts from podcasts, just – and it really is exactly what they need
and what we know they need and moves and evolves as they move
up the wellbeing scale.
So, yeah, it's – I'm just tinkering away, but I think, yeah,
it should be in the world fairly soon, so.
Given what you have done, yeah, watch this space and watch it quickly
because it seems as though the –
the delay between you having a thought and getting something done,
it seems very, very quick, and I love it.
It's an amazing inspiration to see how you attack things
and your thought process, and I really enjoyed meeting you, Janie.
I heard a lot about you over a long period of time,
and it's been a great honour to have spent some time with you.
Thanks for sharing as openly as you have,
and hopefully we can catch up in person at some stage.
Thanks for your time today.
Sounds good. Thanks, Luke. Loved it.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy,
produced by Matt Dwyer,
with audio production by the Australian Broadcasting Company,
and production by Darcy Thompson.
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