It's so exciting. I'm so excited for the world to see what breakers can do. You know, the last time
people had this level of exposure of breaking was in the early 1980s, all those, you know,
retro films and video clips. But yeah, you're right. Everyone thought that breaking died.
The fad of breaking was over. What's happened in all those years in between?
What happened was that it went underground.
A really fascinating guest on the Empowering Ladies podcast this week is Rachel Gunn,
Australia's representative in the sport of breaking or breakdancing, as it was formerly
known as we head into its inaugural debut at the Paris Olympics. It is a brilliant story of passion
and perseverance. You hear her love for her community, passion for a sport very few of us
know anything about, and wanting to carve a path for women in an incredibly male-dominated sport.
It's a story that I think you're really going to enjoy. The fact that Rachel works as a university
professor, lecturing as her day job, gives you a bit of insight into the determination and
discipline of our next guest. Rachel Gunn is exactly the type of person who inspires the
work we do at Alita. Head to alitacollective.com. Our Alita Connect program brings together people
in groups of five to six from around the globe from unique and diverse backgrounds,
a bit like Rachel Gunn. And you don't have to necessarily be an Olympian,
to be part of Alita Connect. We'd love you to check it out. Book a discovery call today.
Huge thanks as always to Jason Nicholas and his team from Temper Bedding. Great athletes,
great performers understand the need for quality sleep, and investing in a mattress like Temper,
NASA designed and approved, is an investment that will change your life.
Rachel Gunn works as a professor at Sydney's Macquarie University, lecturing in the Department
of Media, Communications, Creative Arts, and Language. It's an impressive day job for someone
about to represent Australia in the Paris Olympics in the inaugural breaking competition. Breaking
or break dancing is a style of dance that emerged from the hip hop culture in the United States in
the 1970s. The Paris Olympics, 16 B boys, 16 B girls will go face to face in solo battles
in the open area of the Concorde in central Paris, not far from the Louvre, amazing location,
and is expected to be one of the most sought after tickets with MCs hyping the,
crowd, and DJs a vital part of the breaking competition. Rachel, it's great to meet you.
So great to be on here. Thanks, Luke.
Now I'll look back at the Tokyo Olympics, and for me, Rachel, the introduction of skateboarding,
BMX, and surfing was the highlight of the Tokyo Olympic Games. What does it mean
to have your world, your chosen passion, to now be an Olympic event?
It's so exciting. I'm so excited for the world to see what breakers can do,
you know, the last time people had this level of exposure of breaking was in the early 1980s,
all those, you know, retro films and video clips, and it has just continued to grow and evolve and
develop, and now to get the opportunity on the world's biggest stage at the Olympics to show
what breakers can do, I'm just so excited to be a part of it. And I've got to put my hand up,
Rachel, and say my last memory was probably around those hip hop clips in the early 80s,
that that was just a fad that had disappeared. For it to now pop up in the Olympic Games has put
it on all of our radars. Can you go back and explain the origins of breaking and break dancing
and how it's got so successful that the Olympic movement wanted it as an Olympic event?
Yeah, so, you know, it started in the Bronx in the 70s, African-American, Puerto Rican kids,
community jams, house parties, finding new ways to express themselves in what was predominantly
era. So you had the development of hip hop culture in this setting, the MC, the DJ,
the graffiti writers, and the breakers who were drawn to this breakdown of the music that the
DJs would then start to extend and start to use to records to extend it even longer. Fast forward,
of course, to the early 1980s, everyone's familiar with that global explosion of breaking. But yeah,
you're right. Everyone thought that,
breaking died, the fad of breaking was over, you know, what's what's happened in all those years
in between. And what happened was that it went underground. So the diehard few that were left
in the cities, and I mean, like few, you know, I've spoken to Mystery, who is a old school hip
hopper, breaker, graffiti writer, and he was telling me how, you know, schools went from having
multiple crews in every school,
to there was just one crew in all of Sydney, superstars. And, you know, he could name the
other crews in Melbourne and in Queensland, and a couple of guys in Perth. And they would just stay
in contact through letter writing, graffiti magazines, Australia has a great reputation for
creating some awesome hip hop magazines that traveled around the world. People traveling,
of course, and VHS tapes, training tapes. And that's really where Australia first started making
With the B-Boy All Stars from Queensland. And, you know, this wasn't just in Australia. This was all
around the world, you know, the UK, Italy, South Africa, Germany, LA, you know, there was these
hip hop enthusiasts kept the culture kept the form alive and kept innovating. And then when we get to
the early 90s, that's when we start to see big, large scale competitions reintroduced. And it's
just continued to build from there. You're introduced to it, I understand in your 20s by
your partner, who's,
now your coach. Tell us about that dynamic going into an event like this, having your life partner
as your coach. How does that play out for you? Yeah, look, it's so special that we get to
experience this together. I mean, Sammy has taught me since day one. He's been teaching me breaking
for like 12 years. So I wouldn't want anyone else by my side. But it is, you know, sometimes a tough
dynamic. You know, we are married, and sometimes we have to clarify things. And I think that's
one of the things that we have to clarify between if he's talking to me as my husband or as my coach.
But we've gotten pretty good at having those conversations. And yeah, it's so special that
we get to experience this together. And I think we're also fascinated with
your story, Rachel, because I don't imagine too many university professors are Olympians
or break dancers. You know, when you walk on the campus at Macquarie University, and
you're about to take a lecture, how's the academic world viewed?
Yeah, look, I mean, it depends what part of the academic world, I'm sure. But fortunately,
you know, I'm surrounded by arts academics, be it, you know, dance scholars or popular music scholars.
And my colleagues do really awesome things. They're in heavy metal bands, you know, they're
composers, they're, you know, do their own dance shows. So, you know, I'm really lucky to be among
such an awesome group of creative practice-based people. And I think it's really important that we
get to know each other. And I think it's really important that we get to know each other. And I think
it's really important that we get to know each other. And I think it's really important that we get to know each other.
So it's, yeah, it's, you know, but I don't think there are many other, or many other lecturer
breakers. But there are, you know, there are other people that have done their PhD on breaking, but
maybe, maybe did it around the other way, started breaking and then did their PhD. Not,
not the way that I've chosen.
One of my other favorite things when the Olympics rolls around is that we all of a sudden all
become experts in these sports that we know nothing about. And we start to, you know, we're
become judges of the 10 meter diving and we, oh, that was an over-rotation or I've suddenly
got an opinion on modern pentathlon that I know nothing about. For us, when we watch you perform
and compete, how are we going to know that it's a good performance? What's, what's something to
look out for? Oh, yeah. Good question. Okay. Because, so, I mean, I'll tell you what the
judges are looking at and then I'll, then I'll translate it a little bit. So the judges are
comparing you against your opponent. It's a comparative judging system. So you've just got
who your favorite is, who you're enjoying watching more. They're looking at execution,
technique, vocabulary, so range and repertoire of moves, originality. So what new things you're
bringing, which is probably a harder thing for audiences at home to watch, but maybe,
but also spontaneity is an important aspect of it and musicality. So particularly how you're
responding to music that you're hearing for the first time. So what people at home can look at is
things like how the breaker maybe is using the floor, you know, if there are travels,
if they're confident, how they're responding to key points in the music, how they're engaging
with their opponent, the perceived difficulty of their moves, the perceived artistry of their moves,
the form, the flow,
the lines, the shapes that they're making, the different rhythms that they're performing,
you know, so these sorts of things that, that people can keep in mind. And, and, you know,
once they've watched a few battles, they'll be able to see maybe how the judges are voting and
things like that. But it's, it takes a long time to pick up on all the details of what breakers
are doing. And, and of course, you know, the range of what they're doing. So if they're doing just
headspins every round, then maybe they're a little bit limited and,
and you should think,
what the other person is doing as well.
And I read that trash talking is a legitimate part of this event. That's fascinating to me.
We've got the Olympic code. I mean, how far can you take trash talking? And is that,
is that part of your repertoire?
Yeah, look, I love a bit of trash talking. I can't help it. But yeah, look, you are going to have to
be, you know, the Olympics is a different stage. It's different stakes. So you are going to have
to be a bit more respectful, you know, really show that, that, um,
sportsmanship in that competition. So there are ways to get around it. And what you'll probably
see the breakers do instead of talking is doing a lot of hand actions. So, you know, if a breaker
messes up their move, what they'll probably do is they'll hit the floor. Like the, the opponent
who's calling them out on it will hit the floor, or maybe they'll do this, this hand signal,
which shows like, I saw that you thought you got away with that, but you didn't hit that properly.
Or if they're saying, if they're,
they're noticing that they're repeating movements because you shouldn't be repeating
movements, you know, they might count or they might be like, oh my gosh, how many times have
you done this? You know? So there'll be little hand actions that they're doing as well, which,
which can, you know, still get through to the opponent, but it's less kind of, you know,
It's intriguing. What a, what a fascinating, uh, sport for us to all understand. And, and
you recently won a sports person of the world.
The year award. And I listened to your speech in the last 24 hours and almost just the joy of
saying, Hey, you know, this world of breaking, which very few people know about is suddenly
you got this legitimacy. Is that how it felt for you? Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think many
people, yeah, misunderstand breakers. I think the, the level of dedication and hard work that
it takes to get good at breaking, you know, many people, many breakers in Australia have had to,
to put, you know, their studies or their careers or other things on hold to try and really excel
in this sport, in this dance. And also at the same time where their families are like,
what the hell are you doing? Why are you still dancing? You know, like, can't you move on with
your life? So it's, but suddenly now it's in the Olympics. There's a whole new level of support
and legitimacy that comes with that.
Certainly families and friends are asking how training's going, asking about, you know,
your preparation. And so, you know, the, we as breakers always see breaking as legitimate,
but it is definitely Olympics has made it legitimate for all the people around us. And
it's important because that's opened doors for us, you know, doors that were previously closed,
that people disregarded us, you know, be that in the sporting world, be that in the artistic world,
be that at community halls, because they thought,
we're going to ruin the floor, you know? So it's just a really important moment for us to try and
get the story, our story of breaking out there. And as I mentioned in the intro to be literally
in central Paris, you know, with the famous Louvre and all of the history of Paris and not far from
the Eiffel Tower to have DJs and MCs and just see, this is going to be something that people
will be desperate to get around and get involved in. It couldn't be a better platform, could it?
Yeah. I mean, the, the, the location of it is absolutely amazing. I, I was in Paris earlier
this year and I saw them building all the venues and, you know, the Arc de Triomphe is just down
the road and it's just like phenomenal. It's just in the middle of Paris and this, this amazing,
beautiful urban environment. And, you know, the tickets, every time they release tickets,
they sell out so fast. I mean, the men's have totally sold out. I think the women's have just
about sold out now too. So, you know, everyone's that like, Oh yeah, this breaking.
Well, I tell you what, it is popular. They couldn't get more seats in. So yeah.
That's why I love that the skateboarding at Tokyo was your 13 year olds winning Olympic gold
medalists, uh, becoming Olympic gold medalists and, and just seeing the, suddenly the, the passion
and the skill of a sport that maybe a lot of people had dismissed in the past. Uh, we have
this saying, Rachel, that success leaves clues. And I love talking to people from different
backgrounds about their story. And for you to have the dedication to do a PhD, you know,
in the creative world, to have that overlaid now with something that you, as you said,
you must've had your family and people saying, what are you still doing? Why is this still
happening? And we, and we think that it's hard to have a leadership without this idea of self
leadership first. Does that ring true to you in, in your world and the way that you've gone about
it? Yeah, look, absolutely. It's, it's really been tough for a long time. I think I've always
kind of been seen as, as a bit of a weirdo for what I'm deciding to spend my time on,
build my career on. Like, why is she doing a PhD on that? Why is she spending her nights,
you know, out in front of some local courthouse break dancing, you know, with all these guys,
like, what is she doing with her life? But, you know, I, I knew that this was important. I knew
that there was something here and I've just had to keep, you know, working and building at it.
And now people are finally starting to understand. So you've got to have faith in what you're doing.
You've got to have, um, that passion, that belief. And, you know, even if it didn't get to
this point, I would still be doing breaking. I would still be researching. I would still be
competing. Um, so I'm so fortunate that I've had this Olympic opportunity. Um, but yeah,
you really do need that self leadership. It's so important. It's a great story of perseverance,
your story. And we see people like you are really conscious of the impact they have on others. And
there's going to be now a young generation of people that this is their thing,
that maybe would have given it away. I'm, I'm assuming, has that been something you've
been conscious of that impact that you can have on, on others around you in the next generation?
Look, totally. I'm, I'm so hopeful and excited to inspire the next generation. And that's always
been something that's really conscious for me because the thing, so when I started breaking,
you know, I was with my partner and all his mates and it was, you know, a bunch of guys
training in a PCYC, you know, doing flips and stuff like that.
And I was like, what is this world? What is this space? You know, it felt so uncomfortable at the
beginning. And, um, I'd been to some jams and it was so, so maldominated, you know, and, and so for
so long, I didn't think that women could break, you know, my partner had showed me clips online
and stuff, but it just couldn't connect to it. And it wasn't until I went to a big event,
the Australian B-Boy Championships, you know, B-Boy was a term for all the dancers back in the day.
Um, B-Boying was a term for all the dancers. So I went along and, and they did actually have a
B-Girl, um, category. And I saw a girl in person break for the first time. And it wasn't just in
the competition. It was just in the ciphers, in the circles before the jam started. And it just,
I was totally blown away. I was totally inspired, you know, her getting down in this circle with
all these guys around, totally intimidating. And they just nodded their head as she was doing her
thing. They gave her a clap. They gave her some, you know, a little bit of a, you know, a little
props and she just got up, you know, like it was no big deal. And it just totally put me on a
different path. And so from that moment on, I was like, all right, I'm going to train really hard
and I'm going to enter every battle that I can. And I did, I, you know, entered every battle that
came up. And sometimes that was being the only woman at an event because we didn't have enough
B-Girls to have our own B-Girl category in a local jam or sometimes even in a national jam.
So, you know, one time I entered a Red Bull BC1 and there,
there was like 50 or 60 B-Boys and me, you know, but I felt like if there was a girl in the crowd
or someone in the crowd that saw me and be, they could be inspired to break, I could inspire the
next generation. And so I'm just taking, you know, that is a continuation. The Olympics is
now a continuation of that thinking of trying to inspire the next generation through representing
myself. I don't dance the way that the most of the other B-Girls that have qualified dance.
They do a lot of power and freezes, whereas my specialty is style and creativity. And so I'm
going out there representing the dancers and representing the people that, that choose a
different path and dare to do things a little bit differently. So, you know, it's, it is really
important to me. Well, it's another ceiling that's been broken through that a lot of us didn't even
know about and, and great congratulations again to you. You do a PhD then at the intersection of
breaking and gender.
I'm assuming that's a topic that hadn't been covered before, but now, as you said,
you've gone through to take this to an Olympic games. It's a vision that you had, and you've
been able to, I suppose, be fulfilled by it. Can you tell us how you went about that? As you said,
you must've had some people raising their eyebrows at the start with your, with your PhD. How did
you go about sharing that vision? Yeah, look, my, my PhD, oh goodness. That was one of the
hardest things I did. I did a PhD, I did a PhD, I did a PhD, I did a PhD, I did a PhD, I did a PhD,
until this year. I think this is one of the hardest things I've ever done now. Um, but it,
the PhD was something that, you know, the, the topic continues to evolve and change over the
years because you are researching, um, and you're finding out more as you go. And, you know, while
all my previous studies, I'd been interested in youth cultures and music subcultures and things
like that. I was starting to learn breaking at the same time. And I, you know, there wasn't much
research on breaking and my experience.
So breaking my knowledge of breaking, you know, gender just became, was so important because it
was so male dominated. And, you know, in Australia, guys dancing isn't the most masculine thing
normally, but yet in breaking, it was, they're so masculine. They're so in your face with that
masculinity. And so that's kind of what inspired me to, to start thinking about gender performance.
And then, you know, as I'm learning breaking totally in the minority as a woman learning
My body's changing, my way of moving is changing. I'm doing different kinds of actions and things
and people are starting to go, yeah, but are you sure you, you don't really want to get big
muscles though, do you? And can't you do something a bit more feminine and all girls can't do those
moves. And so just gender became so important in, in everything that, um, that I was experiencing.
It was there. Anytime I went out, I wasn't just representing me. I was representing all B girls.
I was constantly being judged against all women. And these are really common concerns for, for all
women in sport, you know? So it just became a topic through which I could explore broader
questions around gender politics, gender performance and identity within the Australian
context. So, you know, it, it's, I think. Yeah, it's been really interesting, but it also helped
me understand how to grow the, the B girl scene in, in Australia and in Sydney. And, you know,
we've got tons of B girls in Sydney now. It's amazing. So, you know, that's not saying that's
all because of me, you know, there's a, there's a few people that have been really key in helping
to grow that, but it's definitely helped to kind of understand those motivations and those barriers
to women's involvement. And maybe in a, in a, an addition to that, the, the success of the
Matildas, for example, having record ratings, uh, the numbers speak for themselves, investment in
female sporting teams in the U S in particular are becoming
commercial successes. So there is zero tokenism at all. The, the actual finances are following
through something that you obviously saw as a, as a huge challenge previously, but the success of
the AFLW here locally has been overwhelming. So it must fill you with a lot of joy now to see that
a lot of these challenges are being met head on. It's fantastic to be part of this new environment
where, where people are excited about women's sports. I mean, yeah,
the Matildas, you know, watching Caitlin Clark in the U S as well, an amazing, amazing female
basketball player. Um, and it's, it's just so exciting and it, and it's great to see that,
you know, once we've given women's sport a chance in terms of, you know, having, having the airtime
or, you know, um, building those audiences, the audiences are there tenfold, you know,
people are really, really excited. You know, I love watching the women's state of origin. Like
fantastic. And so I've, I feel really, um, fortunate to be able to be coming up in a time
where people are excited about women's sport. Um, and I know that, you know, there's a lot of women
over the years who have done a lot of work to help get us here. Um, and you know, I'm so grateful
for that, but it's, it's such an exciting time now for women's sport. Rachel curiosity is a word
that we hear a lot in this world that people who do things like you have and break a new ground
are incredibly curious. Is that something?
Totally. Totally. Yeah. I, and I really like challenging myself and, and particularly
it seems challenging myself in areas that I'm not naturally gifted, like, which is kind of,
which is, you know, it took me a long time to even start breaking. I don't have the upper body
strength that others, I don't have a gymnastics background. You know, I was a decent student at
school, but then I got really, I get passionate about things and I work really, really hard.
Um, so, but, but curiosity and, and with curiosity, it's about being, having the courage
to follow a new path, um, is so important. Uh, and I think I was, I'm so curious about breaking.
I'm so curious about everything to do with breaking and it just keeps inspiring, you know,
the next moves or my next training, or it inspires my next article or my next research project.
Thinking about these different aspects of breaking, you know, why people
think a certain way, why people, you know, train a certain way or why, um, you know, we,
I don't know, you know, different, all these different sides of breaking. So yeah,
curiosity is just so important.
Rachel, you've become a great ambassador for your world and you communicate the story
beautifully. And I've seen you on a number of different platforms. How have you gone about
that? Is that something that you've.
Really thought about the way you've been able to communicate your world?
Um, I, it's so important for me to use this opportunity to, to communicate, to translate
breaking to as big an audience as possible, because this is such a unique moment. And also
the, as a breaking, as part of the breaking community, you know, we learned a lot of lessons
from the early 1980s. There was not enough of an emphasis on what this dance and culture was about
the term break dancing being used.
And I think that is, is, is an example of that. You know, it was used to describe a few different
dance styles and didn't really take into account the whole culture behind breaking. So this is such
an important opportunity for us, you know, with the visibility, we want to have the explanation
that goes alongside it of, this is a culture. This is a culture that started in the States,
African-American and Puerto Rican kids. But we've also had a scene here in Australia since the late
1970s, you know, there's many, what we call OGs, you know, like, um, around still that would be
able to tell some amazing stories of what the scene was like in Sydney or Perth or, you know,
Melbourne, et cetera. So it's, it's really important to use this opportunity to communicate
what I think are the, the really important aspects of breaking at this time. Yeah.
Right. You mentioned earlier that you're turning up to competitions, this
50, 60, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50,
males, you know, fully masculine and putting it out there. You're the sole female that
takes a fair bit of courage, but I'm assuming collaboration has been a big part of how you've
been able to work your way through this. How important is the collaboration part been for you?
Uh, it's, it's totally important. Breaking is a social dance as well as a competitive dance.
Um, so I wouldn't have been able to do all that I've done without the support of my crew,
which is kind of like a,
a self-made team, if you will, um, who always had my back at every competition that I went to,
you know, so these were intimidating situations that I was in only because I was the only girl
and only because I felt so different, you know, sometimes it'd be a bit in your face, but not in
a dangerous way. And it just was really nice to have their support always there. The other way
that collaboration is of course so important in breaking is because of the way that we learn and
the way that we train.
So I only went to a studio for maybe about a year to learn the basic techniques of breaking the rest
of the time. I've just been at my training sessions with my crew and I would work on key
skills or moves. And I would, you know, work on going into the circle and practice. And my crew
mates would teach me, they would teach me cause they've all been breaking, you know, a decade,
at least longer than me. And they would teach me different moves and skills. And so it is a very
collaborative culture.
Very social, very collaborative. The knowledge is shared and you're in this together. The same,
you know, on the dance floor, when you're battling, there is that social exchange as well. So
you, you are constantly kind of thinking about others as you're dancing. It's not just a solo
Fascinating world. We're obsessed with great leadership. Who's been the greatest leader in
Oh, that's such, that's such a tough question. I mean,
look, I mean, my, my partner has just been amazing, um, and, and constantly helped to keep
me, to guide me, to support me, to ground me, you know, whether it's giving him a draft of my
article before sending it off to a journal or helping me prepare for a battle, you know, I'm,
I'm just so lucky to have his, his wisdom and his knowledge and his guidance there. I think also
just in terms of the practice, I think it's really important to have that kind of, you know,
the breaking community. There's, there's a B-boy called Poe One and he's, he's maybe third
generation breaker. I don't, I can't quite remember, but he's, he's been around for a very
long time and he was a really big name in the early nineties, you know, from LA, his crew style
elements crew is, is, is a really well-known crew. And he's been going around teaching workshops,
judging, and he has so much knowledge and I've done so many workshops of him and he's become a
real friend. And I constantly am thinking, you know, what would Poe One think about this? You
know, what would Poe One remind me of? And, and he says, you know, one of the things that he says,
it's not his line, but he, he says it a lot in his workshops is each one teach one. And that's
the ethos of breaking, you know, so you learn, but you then have to share that learning. And I
think it's really important to, to have that groundedness, to be humble in that sense and to
keep community at,
at its core. And, you know, he's, he's one of the most esteemed international judges help design the
Olympic judging system. You know, he's just one that I always am inspired and, and go to for
thinking about, for thinking about leadership. I love your taking us into this world that is
just a completely different universe. Poe One and, you know, second, third generation breakers.
It's the fact that we didn't, you know, so the collective, we, most of us didn't even understand
still the thing is just so interesting to me. The idea of collaboration, I'm going to come back to
a final question to you. Obviously this is a world that you're immersed in. Has there been one person
you thought, God, I'd love to connect with that. It may be in a different area of your life, but
that's someone that stands out in terms of someone you'd like to connect or collaborate with.
Yeah, this is a, this is a really tough question actually, because there's so many breakers that
inspire me in so many different ways. One person, I mean, I was lucky to,
actually learn off this breaker at the start of the year. He came to Australia and taught some
workshops, but B-Boy Amir from Kazakhstan is just an absolute phenomenal breaker. And he
fortunately qualified. So you will see him at the Olympics and he's just developed a totally new
way of moving. You know, he's such a unique breaker in the way that he changes levels and uses
contrast and dynamics. And it's just absolute, that's totally his style.
That he's developed, but he also does a lot of kind of artistic videography things as well on his
Instagram channel. And I just think like he would just be so amazing to work with in some capacity,
if it's, you know, in training or in, in an artistic capacity, I had a good chat with him
at the work after the workshop talking about great films and things like that. So that would
be pretty amazing to collaborate him with, with him in some capacity.
But your last line there sums up to me,
the best of the Olympics and why we all have so much hope when it comes around that someone from
Kazakhstan growing up in that part of the world is inspiring Rachel Gunn from Sydney and getting
together in an Olympic village with now breakers and a hundred meter sprinters and pole vaulters
and everything else that the United Nations of the world coming together. It's brilliant that
your community is a huge part of it. We celebrate you. We wish you all the best for Paris and
appreciate you joining me. It's nice to catch up.
Thanks so much, Luke. Appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to another episode of the empowering leaders podcast. Huge thanks
as always to our great friends at temper, and we encourage you to check out our leader
connect program. New episodes are out every Wednesday morning at 6am.