Our next guest on the Empowering Leaders podcast is Dr. Anna Rubenstein,
the CEO and founder of the Rites of Passage Institute.
A conversation I think every parent needs to hear,
the idea of how we impact our kids in the most positive way,
particularly through the challenging teenage years.
And Anna is a world expert in bringing back the thousands of years of knowledge
that has been lost in recent times.
As he has sat down with hundreds of thousands of kids around the world
on how to guide them through those challenging years
into being the best version of themselves.
I found it personally inspiring and a bit challenging too,
as a parent myself, on how to raise our kids in the best possible way.
From the moment they're born, find something you can both do together.
I've got a friend who's just had a baby.
He straps the baby to his chest and goes for a walk every morning.
And he said it's the most special, beautiful time of his day.
It creates that safe space where if our child wants to ask us something
or tell us something, they know that we're there,
they feel safe enough and they can come to us.
Very closely linked as these conversations are to the work
that I'm super passionate about, a business we started called Alita.
Love you to check out our Alita Connect signature program.
We're bringing leaders together from sport, industry, social venture and the arts
that has, we think, created a great impact.
Bespoke facilitators.
Facilitated forums that can be life-changing,
where leaders come together to connect, to learn and to share.
What a great honour it was to record this conversation
with Dr. Arne Rubenstein on his property just out of Mullumbimby,
150 acres of beautiful rainforest.
It's a conversation I think every parent needs to hear.
Arne, I'm really appreciative of you inviting my wife, Bec, and I
out to your extraordinary property outside of Mullumbimby near Byron Bay.
We've just had a tour of Mullumbimby.
It's a piece of paradise, really, Arne.
I really appreciate you inviting us today.
Very happy to have you out here.
Well, it's been beautiful.
And I think I need to start with, you run Rites of Passage.
I want to talk about that.
But to have Bec here with me was really special.
And she sat in a special chair and that was a magic moment for me
because you said, okay, that's part of what happens out here.
And I hope I'm not giving away any of the secrets.
But you said now you need to acknowledge your part.
Shall we start with that?
Let's start with that.
one of the fundamental principles of our work,
which is based off, you know, Indigenous traditional communities,
but the belief is that every child is different
and every person is different
and each person has their own unique gifts and talents,
their own genius, their own spirit.
And all of our children have, you know,
their special things that we as parents and carers see in them,
but often they either don't recognise their own gifts and talents
or they don't value them.
So one of the things that we do in our work towards the end of our programs
is something we call honouring,
which is where we get the young ones to sit in front of everybody
who's on the program that we're running
and then their father or their mother or whoever's brought them on the camp
comes up and in front of everyone tells their, you know,
their son or their daughter what they admire about them,
what they love about them, the gifts they see they have,
the talents, the genius, the spirit.
And then we get, you know,
another adult who's on the program can tell them
and sometimes one of the facilitators will say something
or some of their peers and, you know,
it's a life-changing experience for them.
And we believe that every young person needs to be acknowledged
and, you know, we need to be sharing with them what we see in them,
the gifts that we see they have, the beauty in them.
We have a lot of children who say to us, you know,
no one ever says nice things about me.
They tell me all the shit stuff, if you'll excuse the expression.
They tell me what I do wrong.
But when they actually just get honoured and we're basically saying to them,
we love you for who you are,
that can be a life-changing experience for them.
And to see your beautiful wife back in that chair and you, you know,
acknowledging her and thanking her for being the beautiful mother
and woman and partner and, you know, other things that she is,
that's a special thing.
And it's something we should do more often,
but we don't often take the time, even with our own partners.
So that was a pretty special moment.
And then for you, having just met Bec, to do the same,
acknowledge her as a mother.
And, again, I don't think it's something we do enough,
is acknowledge our mothers and the incredible contribution.
And so it's already been a joyful day.
I want to come back a step, if I can, Anna,
and then head back to the rites of passage.
But in 2000, you're running a successful medical practice.
It's a brave decision.
It's an incredible leadership decision, I think,
to take this path.
And, you know, it's not for commercial gain, clearly.
It's all about a sense of purpose.
What motivated that decision?
Well, I'd been working as a general practitioner for, yeah, 12 years.
And I could see that a lot of the issues that I was dealing with
in older people had actually started when they were teenagers,
you know, like self-esteem or things that happened with their fathers
and that a lot of their behaviours were addiction-based,
that compensations, and that were now affecting them.
And I was supposed to give them a tablet or some medication
to fix things up, whereas I'm like, well, actually,
this all started when you were a teenager.
What a shame we didn't deal with it then.
And I also had started doing work in emergency medicine,
and I was seeing all these teenagers coming through the emergency department,
boys and girls, who'd done basically the stupidest thing
you could think of, you know, to try and make themselves feel
And I was a grown-up, and I was like, wow,
there's something really going on here.
And we'd started running some rites of passage camps a few years earlier,
and I was just seeing how those programs were changing the lives
of these young ones.
And I could see that by changing their lives as teenagers,
we would impact on the entire rest of their lives.
And whilst I also loved being a doctor, to be honest,
I had some serious issues with the system.
And the system for me was more and more about making money
and making money.
And less, you know, in my experience around what I felt medicine,
which is a noble profession, should really be about.
Anyway, this window opened up, this window of opportunity opened,
and I just jumped.
And I just made this decision, I'm going to sell my, I'm going to,
well, basically give away my practice and go full-time
into starting rites of passage and trying to scale it initially
around the country and now globally.
Which takes courage, doesn't it, to leave that security
and understanding.
You come from a medical family.
Just talking to you, you know, your dad was an anaesthetist
and your mum, I think you shared with me, was a biochemist.
You've got a brother who's a plastic surgeon.
And so that's a big call, isn't it, to say into this uncharted territory.
And, you know, I think the words, you know, reading your book
in recent times, you felt like you're still a doctor
but more in the preventative space.
Is that how it still feels?
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like it's exactly how I feel.
I'm a doctor doing preventative medicine.
And, you know, I love what we're doing.
And whilst, yeah.
I guess it was a courageous decision for me.
It was also just a key moment in life.
And when I was honest with myself, I knew that that was what I wanted to do.
I wanted to set up these programs.
I wanted to create rites of passage.
I wanted to find ways to scale them.
And I heard the calling.
So whilst I know a lot of people say it took courage, for me it was a no-brainer
because I felt if I don't follow my heart, if I don't follow my passion,
if I don't follow what I know is true,
then what's left?
And so, like, I jumped.
And sitting out here and seeing what you've created,
you can tell that that is a lifetime of success.
And the impact you've had on thousands and thousands of teenagers
around the world is profound.
We hear parents all the time, and as a parent myself,
we want our kids to be happy and successful.
But, again, reading some of your work, the media portrayal of that
and sometimes the world portrayal of that is, you know,
It's about being rich and having a big house and driving an expensive car
and having their supermodel girlfriend.
Do we need to redefine what that looks like?
And do you think perhaps as parents we are overlaying a little bit of that
onto our kids without even knowing it?
Look, I personally think we've got a major problem.
And I think our values have been really messed with.
And exactly as you described, you know, need to be rich,
for boys and have the big car and for girls to have to look a certain way.
And I think that's actually incredibly damaging.
And we need to review all of those things.
And I feel like a lot of – and technology, by the way,
has just made it all worse.
Technology hasn't caused the problems, but it's now greatly exacerbated them.
And, you know, some of the work that we get involved with is when we give boys
and girls an opportunity to discuss how they're told they're supposed to be
and then to look at it.
And to look at, but how do you want to be?
Forget about what you're being told for a bit.
What sort of adult do you want to be?
What's actually important for you?
And it's quite extraordinary for them when they see the difference between
what their own values are as opposed to what they're being told by media,
the internet, Instagram, Facebook, all of those things.
So, you know, our work is an opportunity for people to just review the story
that they've been told.
And that's what we're doing.
And that's what we're doing.
And that's what we're doing.
And go, well, actually, is that the story that I want running my life
or do I want to create my own?
So, let me ask you this question.
What's the key then to being a good parent?
I think there are a number of keys to being a good parent.
I think that, you know, parenting is an ongoing journey.
There's no perfect parent.
So, it's about recognising it is a journey and we're always learning.
But some of the key things that we recommend to parents,
if I was going to name three, is that we make sure we have one
on one time with all of our children so that we actually form
a genuine relationship with all of them, doing things that we both enjoy
and being present and, you know, you've got four children, Luke,
so that's a big call.
But it's even more important when you have more children
that you get some one-on-one time with them regularly.
The second thing is that we practise acknowledging what they do well
and recognising, you know, that they are different from us,
that they all do have.
They all have their own gifts and a big role for us as parents
is to help them find their gifts, their passion, their genius
and their purpose.
And then the third one is that when our children muck up, and they will,
they are going to do things they shouldn't do,
they are going to do things that fail and are not okay,
that we don't shame them but we actually use it as a learning opportunity
and we support them.
We support them to learn and grow from their mistakes rather
than shaming them, which unfortunately happens a lot
some really negative impact on them.
A lot of the research suggests that the time part,
I'm not surprised you went there first, that fathers and sons
and parents that genuinely spend proper time,
I think on average we're now seeing, you know,
parents are spending less than an hour a day, you know, with a child.
But the research will say that the more time,
the better the outcomes education-wise, socially, health-wise.
Rob Sitch, I've been lucky enough to interview on this podcast
as a genius from Working Dog and father of five
and I love talking parenting with Rob.
I love talking parenting with Rob.
I love talking parenting with Rob.
And he goes there as well.
It's like you can't fake time.
That's the only thing that you can't.
Is that a really good lesson to learn for us
that you just have to put the time in?
Yeah, it's incredibly important.
You know, I grew up with a father who, you know,
was a good man and he just worked.
He was at work, you know, basically before we got up in the morning
he was off and gone and he'd come home late
and he was on call on the weekends and, you know,
and he was doing what he thought was the best thing for the family
but actually we just wanted time with him, you know,
and I still remember the time.
I remember the times we would go away or do something together
as some of the most special times of my life with my father
was when we got our one-on-one time together
and we recommend to all fathers and, look, often it's the, you know,
that hour that you're talking about, probably 52 minutes of that
is the mother's and about eight minutes of it is the father's
and mothers tend to, not always,
but tend to more naturally spend time with their children
and a lot of fathers are incredibly busy
and the kids are incredibly busy
and then all of a sudden we,
don't spend time and they're 14, 15 and something goes wrong
and dad thinks he can just step in
and tell his son or his daughter what to do
and it doesn't work.
So we say, you know, to all parents,
from the moment they're born,
find something you can both do together.
I've got a friend who's just had a baby.
He straps the baby to his chest and goes for a walk every morning
and he said it's the most special, beautiful time of his day
and it's just so important that we create
this individual relationship with them
and hopefully we'll be able to do that.
And hopefully we'll be able to do that.
And hopefully turn off our mobile phone when we're doing it.
And it also creates that safe space
where if our child wants to ask us something
or tell us something, that they will do it.
And that is so important that we are there
and if there's something our child's not sure about,
a question they have or a problem that's happening,
that they know that we're there, they feel safe enough
and they can come to us.
It's that gift you get occasionally, isn't it,
when you're driving one-on-one in the car
and they might have been silent for a long period of time
but if you're not there, you don't get that chance
and they come to you.
They come occasionally where you do get
those beautiful moments which we will cherish
but as we said, you can't be there without time.
Then a change happens in the teenage years
and this is what you've probably become a world expert in
and we'll talk rites of passage in a moment.
But so what's the nuance?
What changes for us as parents at teenage years?
What's your advice there?
Well, everything changes, actually.
No nuance, just everything.
And we have to have, you know,
an almost completely different relationship with them.
and we talk about the move from boy psychology
and boy behaviour into adult psychology and behaviour
and hopefully we'll get to talk about that.
But basically when they're little, you know,
they need to be mothered and they need to be told what to do
and when to go to bed and, you know, those things.
But then they reach a point, you know,
around puberty where that has to shift
and we have to give them space
but also we still have to set appropriate boundaries
and so it moves much more into a mentoring,
supportive type of relationship.
And what we say to mothers is, you know,
we need to let them go but we need to be available
so that when they want to come to us,
they can and they will.
But if, you know, if we try and hold on to them
and still know everything that they're doing
and control everything and they're 15, 16, 17 years of age,
it's just not going to go well and they'll push us away.
And we talk about with fathers, you know,
telling them how to live their lives once they become teenagers.
It's about asking them what they think and what they want to do
and, you know, hopefully being able to discuss it
and supporting them and when something goes wrong,
talking about it and saying, well, what do you learn?
What could we have done differently?
Sharing our stories.
You know, they want to know what it is to be an adult
but they don't want to be told how they have to be as an adult.
So, you know, there's, you know, they,
they're now young adults
and we have to treat them as young adults rather than as children.
And the thing about it is that we're not taught that as parents.
I mean, the language you use makes perfect sense when you say it.
It's the practice of being able to put that in place.
You mentioned your language around boy psychology
to healthy men psychology, healthy adult psychology
and talking to you before we started about almost a crisis in the world
that those boys aren't growing into healthy men
and that's some of the leaders we're seeing on a global scale.
Can you explain what you mean by that and what needs to shift?
Yeah, so my first work was with boys and men
and now we do a lot of work with girls and women
but the first model we wrote was about just between a boy and a man
because we're creating a rite of passage to move from boy to man.
So someone said, okay, well, what's the difference between a boy and a man?
And I wrote this model where boy behaviour is what you typically see
in a six to ten-year-old.
I'm the centre of the universe.
I want consistency.
I want constant acknowledgement and attention.
It's always someone else's fault.
I can't handle my emotions.
If I don't get what I want, I have a temper tantrum.
I'm going to live forever and I want a mother to do everything for me,
to be my servant, to always be there.
And, yeah, that's fine in a six to ten-year-old
but when you end up with a grown man who still thinks he's the centre of the universe,
can still never admit when he's wrong,
still wants to be constantly acknowledged
and told how wonderful he is,
if he doesn't get what he wants, he has a temper tantrum
and wants a mother and thinks that women are there to serve him
and look after him.
That's a big problem.
And I believe that we have a world that's predominantly run by a lot of boys.
And so we're trying to create a shift for the boys
to what we call healthy man behaviour,
which is I'm part of the universe.
My actions affect others.
I have to be able to admit when I'm wrong.
If something doesn't work out the way I want,
I can't have a temper tantrum or punch someone
or start throwing bombs across the border at another country or stuff like that.
And also I don't want a mother.
I want genuine relationship.
And same with girls.
There's a model around girls moving from girl behaviour,
of which unfortunately a lot of it is based on external validation,
being told how beautiful and pretty and good and, you know,
superficial compliments.
To, you know, we need good men and powerful women.
You know, we need women in positions of leadership
who can hold that space and for women to know that, you know,
validation doesn't have to just come from what people say to you.
It actually comes from within, knowing that you are who you are
and why, you know, and what's important to you.
And so, yes, there's a whole model around the girl to woman behaviour as well.
And that is huge.
That's a huge passion of yours, isn't it?
What the Indigenous cultures we read about understood for thousands of years
that, you know, from a men point, and I'm talking male dominated
because your first book is about that around,
they worked out pretty quickly that for the security
and the future of their tribes, they needed the right type of leader.
So they put lots and lots of time into exactly the processes
you're trying to bring back.
Can you firstly explain what is a rite of passage?
Why have we become the only generation that have lost that?
And what is the right of passage?
And how are you going about bringing it back?
And even just before that, you know, having worked in
and spent time with Indigenous communities,
one of the things I notice is the kids are really allowed to be kids.
They're, you know, they're all over the place.
They're creative.
But there's a time when they go, okay, now you're moving to become,
you know, a young adult and we need you as a young adult.
And so they recognise that that process doesn't happen necessarily
naturally and every Indigenous and traditional community
around the world created rites of passage.
And basically a rite of passage is a transformation.
It's something that changes you from one stage in life to the next.
And the one we're talking about today is a child becoming a young adult.
But there are actually many rites of passage that we go through.
There's a rite of passage for some of getting married,
of becoming a parent.
That's a transformation.
Once you become a parent, becoming an elder.
And the Indigenous communities had rites of passage
at all these different stages.
And I look at it like we're on a, life is like a staircase.
And we move up the staircase and at each step it's a rite of passage
and they would have acknowledged and created a process for that.
You know, you became a footballer.
So that's a rite of passage when you join the team.
It's also a rite of passage when you retire.
You know, it's a rite of passage when you go into a new stage.
And what I found in my study is that the rites of passage
were always done in the same way.
So they would always take whoever's going through the rite of passage
and create a process, which we call a transformation,
and then that person would come back into the community
in a different way and would act and function in a different way.
And my work has been around what does it take to create a transformation?
A lot of people say, oh, I want to do a transformation.
I want to change.
But what does it actually take?
And what I've found is that the four things that were always in there
is, first of all, sharing of stories.
And we hear so much now about how important it is to share stories
and stories build communities and create a sense of belonging.
They're also the way to pass on wisdom and knowledge.
If you want to teach your kids how to be good adults,
once they're teenagers, it's not about telling them what to do.
It's about sharing your stories and the things you did well
the times when you failed.
That's as important.
So that's the first element.
There's always sharing of stories in a rite of passage.
There's always some sort of challenge or ordeal.
Like, they want challenges.
They want to be stretched.
They want their boundaries to be pushed.
So there's always a challenge or an ordeal.
There's always a creation of a vision for the future.
You know, who do I want to be as a young adult?
How do I want to be in the world?
What do I need to let go of that doesn't serve me anymore?
that's the... the third element, creating a vision.
And then the final one is this recognition of who they are or the honouring.
When they, you know, or we really find ways to help them see what their gifts are,
what their genius is, what they can bring to the world.
And by the way, a gift is only a gift if you give it away.
Otherwise, it's a possession.
So to get them to realise that they have gifts and that those gifts are needed
and can help their families, their communities and the world.
you know, profoundly, and we still see if we don't formally do that,
like we did for thousands and thousands of years,
then the kids themselves make it up and they often take on all types of risk taking behaviour.
We go back to our own teenage years and we think, God, how did I get through?
I did some stupid, crazy things.
Well, not everyone does get through.
And I know having been an emergency medicine doctor, not everyone does get through.
And they either make it up and do it themselves.
And you see that in gangs, you see it in boarding houses, you see it
in frat fraternities, you see it in early university years when they actually do
really inappropriate things to each other, trying to create a rite of passage.
And most of the elements of the rite of passage are in there,
but they're not facilitated and they're not healthy and they create a wound.
So they either make it up or life does it to them.
And that can be very traumatic.
They, you know, accidents or failures or abuse.
They're not the rites of passage.
We want our children to have.
Then we have things like schoolies,
which is when they finish year 12 and they come to Byron or the Gold Coast or
Bali or Fiji and do the, you know, they get into as much alcohol,
drugs and inappropriate behaviours as they can.
Once again, that's not the rite of passage I want for my children.
Or they don't do it at all.
And then they end up as adults, but still feeling and acting like children.
So our thing is about creating responsible
and facilitated, appropriate, powerful rites of passage for young people
to really acknowledge and celebrate that they're becoming young adults.
And I'm sitting here in this incredible
place that you've called home for over 20 years.
It's surrounded by forest, you know, mango trees.
And as I said, it is magical.
You feel this calmness and this energy just sitting here now.
And you have for many years now brought groups together, diverse groups and parents
and mothers and daughters and sons.
Can you share some of the stories of what
happens when you do it right, the transformation that happens?
Sure, I'm happy to.
Well, so we do a lot of story sharing.
So every night we'll sit in a circle, adult child, adult child, adult child,
around a fire, hopefully, because we love fires.
And we get the adults to talk about, you know, what was it like for them when they
were the age of the child they brought on the program?
And what was their relationship like with their father or their mother?
And, you know, we just hear the most
incredible stories and often very difficult stories.
And especially, unfortunately, I talk about their fathers,
often very disappointing, emotional stories.
And then at the end, we say to the to the to the boys or girls who are on the
program, you know, if you become a parent, what would you like your son or daughter
to say about you? And the answers that we get are so profound.
You know, they've been listening the whole way through and they want to be good
parents. And we hear them say, I'll be present for my child.
I'll spend time with my child.
I'll go and watch my child play footy or basketball.
And, you know, many ways they're talking
to their own parents when they say it, but they're consciously thinking.
those who come on the program will be better parents because of coming on our work.
And, you know, I also see that often when they arrive, you know, their relationship
with their parent, you can see in the body language that there's some issues and
they're sort of standing close to each other.
But it's not a great look and all the rest.
And then, you know, a few days into the camp, you see a dad and his son sitting
there and the boy's got his hand draped over his dad's shoulder or his dad's got
his arm around him or, you know, the girls and their moms are cuddling.
And, you know, it has a huge impact
on the relationship between the parent and the child.
And also, don't forget, we're coming into the highest risk factor for these young
people because those years between 14 and 18 are the time when they're most at risk
for mental health issues, suicide, drug use, risk taking behavior and family breakdown.
And by reestablishing and getting them to
think about the relationship they want to have as teenagers.
And we even get them to do a visioning
process when they think about what sort of relationship they want to have
with their parent or what sort of relationship the parent want to have with their child over the next five
or so years. And they talk about it with each other.
And, you know, I think that has a major impact on their lives.
And I'm lucky because we've been doing it for 25 years.
I'm seeing kids have been on these programs 20 years ago.
In fact, one of them is our program
manager and he's in charge of running the programs.
And I get phone calls from kids who are like, oh, I've had a child and he's
or she's six, seven, eight years old. I want to bring him on camp.
So I want to come back and get involved.
And it was a change my life.
And, you know, we see it and we
hear about it. And I am convinced that which you don't
need, that that is such a profound thing that you're bringing back to the mainstream
world and what a legacy, isn't it, to give up the certainty of what
you studied into this is such an incredible story of leadership.
And check out Rites of Passage.
We'll get all the details together if you are interested.
And what I love also, you read your book, which is brilliant around, you know,
teaching others to create Rites of Passage and do it.
Clearly, there's an unbelievable amount of experience and knowledge that
you bring. We want every kid to go through a Rite of Passage and a healthy Rite of Passage.
And, you know, like we talked about putting back in the honouring chair.
We want every child to go in an honouring
chair and be told what's special and what people love about them.
And same for adults.
But, you know, we're talking mainly about children.
But, you know, as I said before, it has a profound and life changing effect on them.
And we've been I've been really fortunate to sit down with diverse
leaders, whether it be from sport or from industry or social venture or
now Rites of Passage.
It's such a I love the experience.
You learn so much.
And I'm reflecting a lot on our own parenting.
I know Bec and I have walking through your property today.
But we're seeing these dimensions of what
we think make great leadership in the 21st century, whether you're a sporting coach
or Dr. Arne Rubinstein. So please reflect on these and give me as much or as little
as you feel. But we feel all leaders understand this idea of self leadership first.
That it starts there.
What does that term mean to you?
Well, I think leadership has changed a lot.
You know, leadership used to be about getting people to do what you wanted.
And then it used to be about finding out
what you think they're good at and making them do that.
And, you know, I definitely agree with you.
It has to start with the self.
So, you know, I believe that, you know, if my theory is that every child is
different, every person is different, have different spirits.
Big thing for me is, well, what are mine and how can I use mine in the best way?
And I am a doctor.
But I think, you know, true medicine is also about making people as healthy as
they can and helping them find what they really love.
And I know and the research shows that when someone is healthy and when someone's
doing what they love, they actually shine.
And not only that, they perform best and they also make healthy life decisions.
And when someone's doing something they don't like, they're more likely to make
healthy life decisions. They're more likely to come home and drink,
do drugs, find ways to escape.
And, you know, so there's a real medical side to helping people do what they love.
And for me, it's been about, well, how do I want to live?
And, you know, I live here on 150 acres in the forest.
I think I have a beautiful house, even though I call it my shed.
But, you know, it's right for me and the work I do is right for me.
And even though, you know, I haven't met other people who just do rites of passage
in the modern world, you know, it's very different from the medical experience
that I had, but I know it's what I'm supposed to be doing.
So that's sort of my definition
of spirit leadership is to think about not only in my work, but in my
exercise and well-being and relationships to really do it in the best way that I can.
The ultimate form of self-leadership, you can tell everything you do is about purpose.
You know, listening to what you're saying before about finding that sense of purpose.
And I've heard one of your lines to say
depression, you see as a sickness of the soul and that if you are living a life
of purpose, it's almost impossible, very, very hard to be depressed.
It's it's it makes sense.
But it feels like that message has been
lost a bit in this overmedicated world that we want to fix with a pill every single time.
And when we look at the fact that something like one in three of our teenagers are on
it might be one in four, it might be a bit less.
It might actually even be a bit more.
You can't find out from the schools what percentage of children are on medication.
But it's way too high.
How is it that we are medicating, you know, between 20 and 40 percent of our
children every day just so they can go to school and get through?
There's got to be something wrong.
And, you know, finally, we're starting to realize that, you know,
we need to look at well-being, we need to look at helping them find
their passion, their purpose, find what's important for them.
We need to teach them 21st century life skills.
You know, we need to give them a holistic
journey and that school is not just about academic results and maths and science
and English, you know, it's got to be about the journey
from the child who comes into the school to the future ready young adult who leaves
and is capable of surviving out in the world and actually wants to make a positive
impact on the world.
Yeah, incredibly well said.
We see leaders, another common dimension of their leadership is they're really
conscious about how they go about positively impacting others in their environment.
I mean, that's your life. That's what you do.
I mean, how have you gone about thinking
about that day to day, positively impacting others?
Well, I think the greatest gift and the
greatest impact we can have on any person is to help them find out who they are,
what they love doing, what's, you know, what's true for them and as much to
help them find what's not right for them, because I see a lot of people, I saw this
as a doctor, I still see it, who just do today what they do because it's what they
did yesterday. They're on the wrong train in life.
They know they're on the wrong train, but they don't know how to get off and they
don't even want to admit publicly or whatever.
Most people know, you know, what's right for them and what's not.
So if we can support and what I love doing, support people to find out what do you
really want to do and what do you need to let go of, what's just not serving you for
the want of a better expression. And when people do that stuff,
you know, I believe that creates an incredibly positive and and and, you know,
worthwhile shift for them and for everyone around them.
So that's a big thing for me, working with people just to get them to be honest about
what they really want to do and what they, you know, shouldn't be doing anymore.
Yeah, I find that, you know, incredibly sad when you see adults working in
an environment you know that they don't really love when they look really,
you know, unhappy in that space, but they feel wedded to it because of income or
they can't make a change and we feed them the story that more money is going to make
them more happy. Sure, we need a baseline amount of money.
But, you know, this thing that if we have that more will create happiness,
I think that's a very, very dangerous assumption.
I love your vision, which is bringing rites of passage back to the mainstream.
You might give me a more clearer version of that.
But we see the great leaders we work with are really clear on creating and sharing
their vision and how they go about it.
Can you share with us, is that the vision
that wakes you up every day and how have you gone about sharing it?
Well, it's about health and wellbeing.
And I think a rite of passage is just such a critical part, because if we stay,
for example, in child behaviour and we're teenagers or in our 20s, 30s or 40s,
it just doesn't work because people are not going to acknowledge us all the time.
They're not going to tell us how tremendous they are.
set up for, you know, someone who thinks that it's not it's not there to serve us.
We're actually there to serve the world and the community.
And and so, you know, a big part of my vision comes into
education and awareness, you know, talking to people about rites of passage,
about what we can be doing for our children, because I'm incredibly not OK
with the mental health levels that we're seeing, about building communities,
healthy communities, about
building well, we actually have something called transformational education,
which is about for children building strong communities, teaching them critical
21st century life skills like resilience and emotional intelligence and creating
healthy rites of passage for them rather than them creating their own potentially
disastrous rites of passage. And I believe we can do those three things.
Communities, 21st century life skills and healthy rites of passage.
We have an impact on those children and we have an impact on those
children's children down the track.
And we want to see it mainstream.
So it's about normalising it, bringing it into schools, bringing it into communities,
bringing it into families, you know, using it into sporting teams, all of those different places.
Yeah, it's incredible legacy that you've created and continue to do.
The idea of curiosity is something that we
see as a common trait with leaders that we're talking to.
And they approach their own growth and learning through curiosity.
something that resonates with you?
You know, the National University of Singapore did this big piece of research
in 2017 and they were the first ones to stand up and say a child's academic
results at the end of year 12 are not the major determinant of their future success.
So what your kid gets when they finish school is not the main thing that's going
to determine their future success, which is pretty revolutionary comment.
And they identified nine critical 21st century life skills and curiosity was one of them.
So I love hearing that.
And it's interesting.
I got approached by a group from China who wanted me to do some work over there.
And I was telling them about this curiosity being a life skill.
And they said, wow, we don't do a lot of curiosity in our schools.
It's about how good you are at maths, how fast you can run, how skillful you are at
piano and everything you're doing is to try and get your score up.
So there's not a lot of room for curiosity because that's taking away from your ability
to get your score up in these things that you're being judged.
On whereas when you go to some of the progressive companies, you know,
some of the ones like Google give their staff, you can have one day a week to do
anything you want if you're curious about it.
And we're introducing into schools,
curiosity projects where a child can do a project on anything that they're curious on.
They might do it on bees.
They might do it on the pyramids.
They might do it on candles.
They might do it on orchids. Doesn't matter.
Just if there's something you're curious about, we'll give you time to
explore that. Spoke to Michael Hewitt Gleason,
Edward de Bono's business partner on this podcast.
And really, the two of them, that's where Google time emanated from.
And Jack Welsh was a big devotee of, you know, X10 thinking is Michael's language
where you spend time thinking about getting better.
And again, it's, you know, if it's good enough for Google and the success
that the Google AdWords came out of that think time, it's been the single biggest
commercial, you know, idea that's ever been.
Created in mankind.
You would think that we would understand
that more, but it still feels like an uncommon gift to share.
We see ladies are really conscious of how they communicate with clarity.
Is that how have you gone about communicating your message?
Well, I'm trying to get more and more clarity.
I did write a book called The Making
of Men Raising Boys to be Happy, Healthy and Successful.
Can I recommend that? Just it is brilliant.
And I found it really, you know, Bex here with
us today and I was on the plane, I was reading it on the way up and you wanted
to pass the page back to her, then she passed one back to me.
There's a few tears there as well around as a parent.
It's confronting sometimes.
And so I recommend if you haven't read Arnie's book, go and do it.
It's brilliant. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Yes, I agree with you.
And we have sold twenty five thousand copies around Australia and around the world.
So that, you know, it's had a good impact.
But I'm writing another book and it's about,
you know, you could call it rights of passage.
It's for dummies, even though that's not what the book would be called.
But really explain I want to explain to people clearly about why rights of passage
are important, how we can bring them in, how we can create them.
And this idea of having a transformational mindset.
And what I mean by that, we've heard about, you know, having everyone has
a mindset and we have we can get to peak mindset.
And we talk about a growth mindset.
But a transformational mindset is like it's that ability to find the next thing
in our lives. But that's not necessarily just
a development from the thing that we're doing.
It's a you know, it's another step.
And in order to do that, we have to actually periodically remove
ourselves from our normal life space and have time, you know, time out.
We actually, you know, time to think about things.
And that's why going out into nature is so powerful or, you know,
on a well-run workshop or things like that, where we can leave everything else
behind and actually look at, well, hang on, let's take some time out.
Who am I? What's really important to me?
What do I want to be doing?
What do I want to not be doing?
everybody needs to periodically get those opportunities so that we can keep growing.
Yeah, I love it. I love the way that you think about those things.
It's a profound message to share.
We see leaders are really passionate about collaboration now more than ever.
How important is collaboration?
Oh, look, I think it's more and more important all the time.
I mean, when I first got involved in Rites of Passage was 1993 when we first ran
the our father son or men and boys program for twenty seven people.
And it was just life changing for me and I started running one a year up here.
And then we discovered that there were
other men around Australia running programs who was doing similar stuff.
And so we all got together and then we
formed a company together, which was back then called the Pathways Foundation.
and now we work, you know, not only with men, we work with women and we're talking
to the to the man cave and Hunter Johnson, who they're doing incredible work in
Victoria, New South Wales about, you know, how could we collaborate?
You know, they're super young, super keen and they're young and ambitious and got
all these great facilitators and we've got lots of experience and knowledge
in different ways and what would happen if we actually collaborated.
And I think, you know, finding good collaborations.
That's that is a really incredible way to create a step change and a transformation.
Yeah, I look forward to hopefully catching up with with Hunter Johnson.
And I know there's a close connection there around the work that he does.
And so it sounds the power of the man cave and hopefully get to share that story
at some stage as well, but asking these two questions, any of all the leaders we
spoke to around who has been firstly the greatest leader in your life.
Who has been the greatest leader in my
Well, what comes up for me is I had a mentor when I was growing up, a man named
Rene, and it was my mother's best friend's husband.
And he used to take me fishing and
on the bay in Victoria and even better was when he take me fishing at night.
That was like super exciting.
And he just talked to me and he'd share stories and he had a very colourful life.
And I could ask him any questions that I wanted.
And he treated me like.
He treated me like a friend.
And he was a mentor, I guess, more than a leader.
But he had a profound effect on my life.
And then there's people like Michael Trail, who was, you know, one of the he
started Macquarie Banks, one of their big departments.
And then he left and he set up Social Ventures Australia to set up and support
non-profit organisations around the country who are doing good work.
And, you know, I became very close with him and men like that who had the
opportunity to make big amounts of money, but got to a point saying, you know, it's enough.
I want to do good.
I want to really do good and I want to do good in the best way that I can.
So I've been fortunate to be around men
like Michael and other men and women who I know.
Someone like Jan Owen, who ran Foundation for Young Australians for so many years.
Yeah. And then I see leadership, I'll just say this in small ways.
I see amazing, well, not small, but leaders who are not out there on the world stage
doing it, but who are just good parents and soccer coaches and who are really there
and present. And I go, well, if that's not leadership, you know, what is?
Can I go back to Renee?
Was that something you think your mum set up formally to have that influence?
Or did it happen naturally?
And then part two of that, I know you're concerned that we're losing
people's particularly for males because of, you know, you know, there's a link
to the horrific pedophilia that went through a generation.
And there's this sort of, you know,
an older man with a young boy now is perceived in the wrong way,
which is a bit of a tragedy. Yeah.
So, look, I don't think it was set up deliberately,
but I think that Renee was just a good man.
And the interesting thing with mentoring is that there's as much benefit for the boy
as there is so for the man as there is for the boy.
And I set up a program with the Penrith
Panthers in outside, well, in Penrith, outside of Sydney.
And they wanted to do a program called
From Boys to Men for Boys at Risk in Penrith.
And they got 16 boys and they put an ad
in the paper to see if they could get 16 mentors in the local community.
And they were targeting, you know,
businessmen and ex footballers and things like that.
And on this on the particular evening, when they were hoping 16 men would rock
up so they could match them with the 16 boys, 67 men arrived.
And there are many,
many men out there who want to mentor, who are good men, who want to support
boys and girls growing up.
And it is a tragedy because that because of the disastrous and so not OK actions
of a few that we are losing a generation of mentors.
And I believe that's something we need to turn around.
And, you know, the the role of mentors in my life has been huge.
And it's something that I actively seek
to go out and do and mentor boys and I have for many, many years.
And I continue to do.
Another great message to pass on.
We are passionate about collaboration and
what we're doing in the space I was sharing with you before at A Leader.
We're connecting leaders together in different diverse backgrounds and getting
them to share and support each other is a passion project through the world
of A Leader and part of the reason why we wanted to catch up with you so keenly today.
If you could collaborate with anyone on any part of your life, is there
someone that springs to mind?
Oh, well, I'm currently searching for older men
who are kind of like further down the track than I am and who I, you know, I still want mentors.
I'm 58 years old and I still want mentors, older men or older women.
You know, I've had some fabulous old aunties in my life who I just valued so
incredibly deeply and unfortunately, most of them are past.
I had one old auntie who she went through the war.
She was in a concentration camp.
She had the tattoo on her arm.
And, you know, she was the most incredible woman.
And I would spend hours and hours with her and talking about all sorts of things.
So I would collaborate with some older men
or older women who have been down the journey.
And I feel like the leadership I need now
and the mentoring I need is into the next stage of my life, which is sort of eldership.
I don't think it's my role to build another empire.
I think it's my role to learn how to really be
a good elder and I'm very interested in the elder space because I think,
you know, we've kind of lost eldering, which is so important.
And that's a whole nother podcast.
But yeah, so the collaborators I would be looking for are probably ones,
once again, who are in normal houses and look quite normal,
but actually have a lot of worldly experience.
And I love that you've still got that mindset, isn't it?
That you give so much knowledge, you've got so much to share, you mentor other people,
but you're constantly.
On that self-improvement, self-learning journey, which is the great passion that
we see people with that never stops, it never ends.
And that search for wisdom is there.
I feel like I've learnt an incredible amount again today.
You want to come away and you want to be a better parent.
I, you know, the rites of passage just resonate so strongly.
I feel like I need to apologise to Sam and Sienna at 19 and 17, didn't find you quick
enough, but look out Will and Max, our two youngest.
I couldn't think of anything more worthwhile than coming up here and and
benefiting from the great thing that you've brought back, hopefully to mainstream.
It's been a great pleasure to spend some time with you.
Thanks again. Thank you.
Thanks for coming. And thanks for interviewing me.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me,
Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer with audio production by Darcy Thompson.
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