What an incredible conversation this week on the Empowering Leaders podcast.
I had the great pleasure of talking to the principal conductor of the Melbourne Symphony
Orchestra and two-time ARIA Award winner, Benjamin Northey.
Listening to Ben's thoughts on curiosity as the ultimate path to learning and the most
important thing we can pass on to our kids, I found fascinating.
Ben's perspective on pressure and musical performance was equally compelling.
I learnt an incredible amount from Ben and I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation.
Ben has collaborated with a plethora of musicians across the world, including the likes of Ben
Folds, Nick Cave, KD Lang, Sting, the late, great Archie Roach, and the list goes on and
And this type of collaboration is a big part of the world I love to explore through Alita,
a business founded with my great friend, Matt Wadowitz.
It's a place where leaders can collaborate and learn from one another.
We've had some incredible names join us, including Hamish and Andy's
Andy Lee, Ange Postacoglu from Celtic, Arsenal's Mikel Arteta, just to name a few.
And we are equally excited about you joining as well.
If it's a space that you are interested in, we would love you to check it out at
alitacollective.com.
Encourage you to have a look at our signature Alita Connect program to understand how people
like Ben, who's part of that program, are collaborating and leading in their world.
Ben, it's a great privilege to spend some time with you.
I've been really looking forward to this.
Thanks for joining me.
Oh, it's a pleasure, Das.
And yeah, I get tired.
Just hearing that list of stuff that's been going on.
But yeah, it's amazing, actually, just to reflect on a few of those things that you
read out and and realize that before that, I actually had a different kind of life as
a performing musician.
I used to play the saxophone and I played in cover bands in Melbourne and did all kinds
And as you mentioned, that diversity has ended up being a strength of mine.
So, yeah, it's interesting.
I want to talk to that in a minute, the diversity of your music passion.
But can I go back reading as young as two?
I understand that you were obsessed with your mum and dad's record collection.
And by the age of three, your mum, who's an outstanding pianist, had enrolled you in a
Yamaha early learning class.
Can you remember as young as that age having music in your DNA?
I remember listening to records back in, I'm born in 1970, so a child of the 70s.
And I remember they, mum and dad, did have a great record collection.
And that was the thing.
You're always looking for what your kids show interests in, aren't you?
You know, as parents.
And they saw me stop when the music was playing and just sit there, you know, and listen as
And so they just kept feeding that interest and that appetite.
And so I do remember actually listening to records.
They, you know, they would play all kinds of stuff.
They actually had a really interesting collection of music for young children by a European
guy called Carl Orff, who had a sort of system of teaching music.
It was called Schulwerk, schoolwork for young.
And I think actually I got a hell of a lot out of listening to that because it was like
the building blocks of music and absorbing that at that young, really young age.
Music just sort of made sense to me a bit more after that.
It was interesting.
You mentioned, you know, playing and your diverse interests.
I read you started with the violin at school.
You moved to the trumpet, the flute.
At uni you played the saxophone, as you said, in a James Brown cover band.
And then you studied the soprano saxophone.
Now I look at you as one of the world's leading conductors.
Do you think that there's so much benefit for you and having played so many instruments
that that has really helped you in what you do now?
Well, yes, but it's a very unconventional pathway.
So if you were going to say to somebody or if they said, I want to be a conductor, that's
not the pathway that you would give them.
It would be much more specialised.
They would say, you know, play the piano, work in an opera company.
Perhaps and accompany singers, work your way up to conducting as the second or third
conductor, get your opportunities in front of the orchestra that way.
Or what's more common now is play in an orchestra for a period of time.
And so I play because I was playing the saxophone primarily as a teenager.
I was in what they call wind ensembles.
So we had no strings.
It was just wind bands.
And that was very different, but similar in the same sense because they're large ensembles.
So I got the same kind of large ensemble.
But when I look at the crazy journey in music I went on because I was sort of curious about
the next thing, it seemed random at the time.
And it's only now that I look back on it and I go, actually, that's a great foundation
for the work I'm doing.
And it's kind of come in really handy for me.
Do you still play?
I actually still own my soprano saxophone.
But, you know, the thing, Darce, is now that I work...
I work and collaborate with so many world-class performers, it's ridiculous.
Like, if I pick up the saxophone after not having played it for 10 years or something,
it's not going to sound great.
And it's going to be even worse because I know what it can sound like, you know, the
way I used to play when I was working at it every day, but also working with these amazing
soloists, you just think, well, the world doesn't need to hear me play anymore.
That's an interesting way to think.
I suppose, as you said, you're with the world's best and your ear must be...
I look at your role without understanding it, but in some ways it's the ultimate leadership
Is it up to 90 musicians in an orchestra?
Yeah, well, sometimes you've got a choir as well, so you can have, you know, 300 people
on stage at times, so it's big, yeah.
And they're looking at every movement you make, every bit of body language, every expression
to take their temperature, I suppose, from your lead.
I mean, what's been the key to your success in doing it at the level that you do?
First and foremost, it's, I guess, your musicality, your sense of having a vision for a piece
of music, because that's what the conductor has to bring, a vision that everyone buys
into and is willing to follow.
So it's very much that classic leader-follower kind of relationship with the orchestra.
But I think a lot of people think that it's about power, and it's not, really.
Power comes with the position, but that's not what it's about.
Like, a lot of people see the...
The maestro up the front waving their arms around and, like, you know, kind of dictating
how this is going to go to the obedient musicians who are following.
It's actually much more collaborative than that in terms of what's actually going on,
this kind of exchange of wills that's happening between the conductor and the musicians.
It's a frustrating job for musicians, and like any big group of people, there's a psychology
that you have to work out, and I think that's one of the strengths that I bring to it.
I'm always thinking about the people that I'm working with, and I'm trying to think
about the best way in which to guide them to an outcome whilst respecting them and involving
them in that process.
So, you know, I'm a collaborator, you know, by nature, and I'm trying to facilitate their
best performance the whole time.
I'm not trying to say, this is how it goes.
I'm like, what is the best outcome for this particular situation and this group of people?
I'm really interested in that.
So, Ben, is that a shift in terms of conductors of the past would have been much more of a
dictatorship and stood out the front, and there would have been that hierarchical, I'm
the boss, and probably the reverse of what you're saying.
I'm fascinated by that because I know you've got a great passion for sport that I want
to get onto through this chat, and we've seen a massive shift as well in the world of sport
and the way coaches are much more collaborative as well.
When I played, you know, the coach was the boss.
You didn't give any feedback the other way.
You did what you were told, or you got, you know, put in your place pretty quickly.
That shift has been pretty profound.
Is that the same in your world?
So what's happened is the power has shifted from the maestro being the boss and being
able to fire people on the spot and that kind of stuff.
So that would have happened in the past, literally?
You're not pulling your weight, hop out of the orchestra.
It has happened, and often for no reason, just because people want to demonstrate their
And, you know, it's the idea of how do you get the best?
How do you get the best out of people?
And I think there was a sense back in those days, we're talking mid-20th century and before,
that fear was actually the best driver of people, which is just an anathema to me.
You know, I'm trying to fight against that all the time, because I think people are much
more responsive in a relaxed state, and they're much more able to bring their best in that
But that's how I work.
So everyone's different.
But the big thing that's changed is the orchestras are much more self-disciplined.
They're very self-determining now, so they are very responsible for who conducts them,
So at the end of a week, they'll fill out their surveys and give an opinion about the
work of the visiting conductor, for example, or their regular conductor, and that determines
whether you come back.
So the power has shifted, and that's been a good thing, because it's made conductors
change the way in which they communicate and interact with the orchestra players.
We had a very brief chat before we hit record, and you said something that
was very important.
You know, reverberated in my mind to say that the people playing an instrument orchestra
almost feel like they're doing brain surgery.
I think, to paraphrase what you said, they feel that pressure of wanting to get it right
for the expanded team.
Is that how it is for a lot of them?
The expectation is huge at that level.
We're talking about people who have dedicated their entire lives, often from very young
age, to one thing, and because it's a big team, everyone's relying on everyone else.
else and so it's you got to think of an orchestra as kind of one thing it's it's like that's the
goal is to make it this one beautiful in harmony machine of humanity you know that that's everyone's
listening to each other they're all fitting in with each other and some people are leading some
people know when to stay out of the way and balance and let other things through and there's this whole
kind of um you know uh operational hierarchy within an orchestra as well um i think in terms
of the pressure uh and and yes i i think there have been studies done on that where they say
the pressure that people feel when they're playing for for example a solo in an orchestra is the same
kind of pressure that a brain surgeon feels when they're operating on somebody which is it's crazy
when you think about it because no one's going to die in an orchestral context but that's how they
and so you know it's it's perform or or die i mean it's it's like that that's that's the mindset
people come in with and i think that's the same in sport you know you've got to bring it when it
counts and that's in the concert so that that's the magic and the terror of of live music and
that's you know we're not talking about amplified concerts this is just you and your instrument
and the audience and your own expectations and the group's expectations
well to team sport if you have an off day in the team it's pretty obvious you know you you know
there's there's stats and there's data and and most athletes will know very very quickly in fact
everyone does if yet is that the same in in an orchestral sense that's you know someone can have
an off night and and is it do you need a you know a refined ear to understand that or or would the
the player themselves feel as though they had a bad night oh they'd know for sure and it depends
on the instrument you know the the way the orchestra is structured is there's a whole lot of
players like violins violas cellos and basses that's a big section you can kind of blend in as a as
a group in that section but if you're one of what we call the principal players so principal oboe
principal french horn diabolical instrument to play small margin for error everyone can hear if
you've made a mistake like it's if you've got a real sympathy for these people first trumpet
um but you know even on violin if you've got a solo yes it's obvious when something's going wrong
you hear somebody mentally really struggling in a concert it's a terrible scenario because
that i i think from a conductor's perspective what what have what can i do a to help in this
situation and bring them back and um you feel bad because you haven't brought out their best
at that time as well so something's gone wrong might not be your fault but you're the leader
you have to take responsibility as well yeah in preparation for this i you know read extensively
of that collaborative nature of large-scale music making there was one quote that was
attributed to i wanted to read back it's one of the few this is your words one of the few examples
of a large number of human beings cooperating in real time to achieve a very very difficult
end product as a metaphor for what human beings can achieve there's nothing like an orchestra i
can hear the passion in those words does that sort of sum up to you the the reason why you
love getting it out trying to create that sort of joy it is it is and and see
you know as human beings we we kind of want to collaborate i think um by our nature we want
to be part of something bigger the things we can achieve as a collective are much greater than the
things we can achieve by ourselves and that's the truth with music so my daughter we were talking
about um before we started she's just started violin she's 10 years old she you know is doing
a practice she did her first state music camp this year and got to play in an orchestra for
the first time and so she hasn't really been that into the violin she's just started playing the
violin up to this point all of a sudden she gets in the orchestra she says dad you should hear it
it's unbelievable i said yeah i know that's what i do she goes no you don't understand
i really like it's really amazing and so you know it's that kind of feeling of um of of the power of
of um cooperation you know and and the orchestra for all of its crazy kind of old world um
stigma and stereotypes it's actually still a very relevant
institution i want to jump into the parenting thing for a moment they've been pick up on
on that conversation i love talking to leaders like you on a range of things but but with parent
when your dad's one of the leading conductors around the world and you pick up the violin and
and you know i in the same in a football sense i suppose if your dad's played and then you're
you're running around an oz kick there's a there's an expectation do you think she
feels a little a bit of that intuitively that hang on a few more people are watching me than
someone else yeah it's possible it's still early days and you've got to be careful of that don't
you you know because that's the last thing i want want her to feel and the way that i think about
music is that it's really part of a full education so it's one of the things and it's a shame um that
it seems to have been been more peripheral in particularly primary school for example like
you know there were there are schools still out there but when i went to school it was kind of
like you did your music lessons in the in the school time and there was a specialist music
teacher that's changed now so you don't have specialist music teachers in primary schools
anymore and so i i think of it as kind of
this tool to um i guess stimulate her creativity or any child's creativity and that can manifest
then in other areas of of their personal growth so i'm hoping that that's how she feels i don't
want her to feel any expectation being a conductor's daughter but i guess that's going to
happen at some point so ben we see a lot of um you know to use the term that the sort of tiger mom
you're getting a violin in your hand and no matter what there's six lessons a week and i'm going to
you know enforce that that for you for the better good i think the intention's always great i mean
you can hear in your world that you just through curiosity chopped and chained what's your advice
because i think you know we all see now as you said the benefit of creativity through music but
do you need to to to drive a little bit or just let the kids find their own part i don't think
it's a bad thing to drive a little bit because that's one of the things it teaches you like any
any discipline uh is that importance of of actually sticking at it and and that's the
thing about music the more you practice the more fun it becomes yeah the more fun it becomes the
more you practice so it's this kind of loop yeah um so i don't know i i feel like there is a limit
i always say to eva you don't have to do a lot of practice you just have to do it every day you know
it's it's like 10 minutes it's not you know so you can't do this until you've done your practice
and that's the deal and she kind of goes oh yeah fair enough and just just does it look she may
give it up she complains about learning piano that's fine um she complains about playing netball
on the weekend sometimes too but she still does it so you know it's just it's just
part of raising kids that's what i think anyway i love her coming back dad you don't understand
how good an orchestra stands it's just genius isn't it it's brilliant can i ask you for those
that aren't regular listeners to classical music i'm going to put my hand up i in preparation for
this have been i've been loving it and uh and listening to to some of your work and is there
one piece of music you know we all have heard of beethoven's fifth or the you know is there
one particular you know bit of music that sums up the genius of of what an orchestra does
oh that's a that's a really tough one actually luke because there are so many amazing parts of
the repertoire i mean i guess the most impactful ones are the ones that are huge scale and actually
even most people would say they don't know much about classical music you know but they do they
hear it in ads on television they hear it in their computer games in their movies um the the ones
that really stick out for me are the the huge scale works that involve choir and orchestra
so when you've we were talking before about the numbers of people that you can be conducting at
one time uh i recently conducted a piece by an italian composer called giuseppe verdi and that's
the other thing about you know this this kind of heritage of the orchestra that that's joseph green
in english translation you know what i mean but it sounds so kind of inaccessible in in this you
know italian language but he wrote a requiem at the end of his life and he was a primarily an
opera composer and a requiem is meant to be a religious piece of music and it's a piece of
religious kind of work and a lot of the big composers have written a work like this and he
wrote it in this very non-religious operatic kind of style and i conducted it for the first time
this year choir of 250 over in christ church in new zealand one of the biggest projects we'd had
since covid you know so it was a a massive cathartic event anyway and that piece of music
if you want to just have your mind blown i mean it's pretty long but even one movement of it
listen to the dears era the day of judgment
of that particular requiem the verdi requiem and it will blow your mind it doesn't matter
if you're into classical music or not it'll just completely blow your mind and there's i could name
a hundred pieces that are like that and is that the genius of when you get that amount of humans
in a room together it creates an energy that recorded music can never ever uh replicate i
suppose exactly it's a completely different experience because you are witnessing and
in you know the performance case being a part of the creation of that work
but if you're in the audience you're also part of it because the audience and the performers that's
a sacred relationship as well and you can feel that energy in a room like when everybody has
a reaction to the music together in a room the electricity that that creates it's intangible i
don't know how it works but that's what it's all about and and that and it's just it's incredible
the way it unites people like that good luck being at the mcg with the richmond army uh ben
and uh you know singing tiger land and and richmond winning
another uh a big fight it's a collective experience isn't it it is being there there's
no substitute and and we we understood that when they took the crowds away and you know we were
commentating games at the mcg with no one there and the lifeless feeling it was bizarre and so i
suppose it's given us this appreciation but you can't replicate that energy you know you know my
team are the red white and blue but when it's collingwood or richmond or that old history at
a ground that influences the play and it's a collective experience and it's a collective
and the standard of play no doubt when you think about it that's what it's all about
actually yeah like what's the primary function of sport what's the primary function of the arts
and and you can you can um mount a very strong argument that it is simply about bringing people
together and having a sense of belonging that's you know that's very possible that that's the
main game here actually and it's a great segue ben to wanting to talk about where we've intersected
uh a space we created called elita uh seven years ago and you know connecting him with you has been
a great joy and and we love that world of collaboration bringing people together from
from unique backgrounds and the group that you're connected with if you're happy to share it
fascinates me because you've got michael voss who i played against as one of the greatest players
i've ever seen play the game a triple premiership captain of the brisbane lions now coach of
uh carlton trent robinson is a legend of uh of the rugby league world and
uh revered as one of the greatest players i've ever seen play the game and he's been a great
lead coach of the roosters and had success everywhere dr chris brown people knows the
bondo vet but a beautiful person chris and incredibly smart richard opp he's probably
got the biggest marketing job in the world he looks after um global brands for a business
called abm bev which is budweiser and the biggest consumer brands in the world and and ben norther
coming together we love the idea of sharing and learning and collaborating together can you tell
us a bit about what that's been like for her it's been an amazing experience uh i've learned so much
at the beginning i i
was thinking gee i'm really the odd one out here you know coming in um from the arts i mean it was
good chris was there as well because he's sort of coming from that um television world as well
um but i because i had so much respect for uh all of these these guys on this panel
and i was just thinking gee i hope i can bring something worthwhile to this conversation as it
turned out they were very interested in the orchestra and and what how it worked had a lot
of questions around the the structure of it um and and and and and and and and and and and and
my role and it made me it made it reinforced the idea that um leadership there's so much common
ground across disciplines you know we're all dealing with the same kinds of things and usually
it's just about people it's about our relationships with people it's about our relationships with
ourselves looking deep into how we how we are going about our our leading and how how we can
improve and that's been the beauty of this is being able to have those discussions with those
learning so much every time i mean i just take pages of notes in every meeting that i reflect
on later and look back on and and think wow that's a that's a really great idea i wonder how i could
apply that to the orchestra and and just being challenged on things too things that you've always
done in a certain way and somebody sort of challenges said what about this why don't you try
this um that's been really interesting and also it's made me realize what i what values i admire
and um and and which people who've helped me and why do i kind of look back on with so much
affection for those people and so much gratitude because they they kind of you know believed in me
to the point where i started believing in myself really that's kind of the one thing we've all got
in common i think we all had someone who believed in us at some point i think so and i was going to
ask you about that i love the fact people like you with a schedule that you've got and and all
those people and we really love the idea
and as passionate about you know people listening to this and say i'd like to get together and
collaborate and learn and that accountability to show up and say is there a better way you know
can i learn and and share you know particularly when you come from different backgrounds i love
hearing the you know obviously um you know private conversation but uh you know that world of a leader
connect if you are interested we are really passionate about um sharing and expanding that
space so please um you don't have to be ben northing doing what ben's do to to do the same
thing and and and share that you've had great mentors and i've had great mentors and i've had
along the journey in reading about it and you've made that path to go and study overseas and
you know names that probably don't mean enormous amount to me and i might even be able to pronounce
leaf segstrom is it like segastam that was close enough close enough john hopkins i can get out
but it sounds like you've had people that as you just said before have really seen something in
you can you tell us about that yeah well it was mainly john i mean the idea of a saxophonist
um you know i was in my late 20s at this point so i'd had a performance and i'd had a performance
career i went back to university as a mature age student to do my bachelor of music which i dropped
out of when i was in first year back in the day and and started working he started getting gigs
in melbourne had this fantastic life of a performing musician playing in as you say um
a james brown cover band so were you done with study at that stage did you see or did you always
think you'd come back or no i didn't at all no i i kind of thought no i'll be i'll just be a
professional musician i'll just i'll just work and do gigs and and and then the lifestyle you
know we're working four or five nights a week and i'm just like i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it
a week and um you know i guess the fun had started to to wear off a little bit maybe i'd
burn myself out having a bit too much fun um so i went back to the conservatorium and and picked
up where i left off and um that was where i met my first conducting teacher john hopkins now i'm not
one of these guys who's like i have to be a conductor i have to be that guy standing up
in front of the orchestra um i didn't think that was possible from what i where i was and what i
was doing hadn't had a uh you know long career in orchestral music at all
so this amazing teacher john hopkins who was an old man by this stage he had just turned up to
set up a conducting program in fourth year you know kind of a elective that you could do
and um he'd done everything in australian music by this stage and he was an extraordinary
person to learn from he was interested in the power of music as a medium for social change
and really big picture thinking you know and that and also this
power of interactions with people as the the main sort of area of expertise as a conductor
so he ended up uh you know seeing something in me and encouraged me to continue my studies and said
look okay you're playing catch up i get it but let's come and study with me i'm setting up a
master's program here it's you know two years give it a go you're gonna have to stop everything
else that you're doing and i was still working at that point
and i didn't have a family or anything so i thought oh if i'm ever going to do it
now's the time how often do these opportunities come along yeah and i i i said to him i said i
just don't see how this is possible he said you don't know what's possible he said that's the
beauty about it nobody knows what's possible we're all just making it up as we go along
there's no rules and and that's the beauty of possibility you you just the books the books
empty so it was so inspiring and i remember um just working really really
hard uh for that two years and then i won this competition and and went overseas to study and
you know spent six years learning how to do it and then started work i mean it's a really amazing
kind of pathway genuine sliding doors moment that isn't it for someone to see that in you
and then for you to have the uh ability and the dedication to take that opportunity and
and then to go overseas you know you know i read in research that when you are applying
in finland and i um you know apologies to the life for uh
but i'm told that you you just aced the the exam and that you're asked to listen to some music and
write it down i mean was that something you felt comfortable with at that stage i did actually
because i'd done so much work in music production so i used to do a lot of work for advertising and
in the recording studio and often people would give you a piece of music and say i need a backing
track or something for this you know and you'd have to make it and that involved you listening
in micro detail and kind of deconstructing the piece and you know putting it back
together one line at a time so i knew how to do that um and that was the thing i sort of realized
more and more as i went through all of my musical experiences were exactly the kinds of things that
i needed to be able to draw on and especially at a time when orchestras are changing so much
the kinds of concerts orchestras are doing now so different than they were even 20 years ago
and so my sort of diversity and and the all these crazy experiences all of a sudden became very very
at that point but yeah i was surprised when i got into the sibelius academy and i kept being
surprised you know i just kept thinking how's this happening you know this is ridiculous this and
and then at some point you know you start to believe yeah and that's that's when you can really
um build uh on your skills because you believe that it's possible i mean that's the thing about
performance isn't it you know sport anything the belief it's so it's so uh often spoken about
but unless you've actually felt it it's really hard to explain what it is you know and is that
you know it's a great uh point i think you know sports people and other will relate to that sense
you know i go back to what i was in do you belong are you good enough to play it and then
then you get a few games and then you look around and think you know i do belong out here and and
then the opportunity is there to to take it to us to the level that you that you possibly get
is there still nerves you get in front of the london philharmonic orchestra on a performance
night yeah you still oh no no i'm
I mean, I don't mean to say that I always believe I did then, but yeah, of course you
go through ups and downs with that and belief comes and goes, um, confidence comes and goes.
The nerves are absolutely at the core of this business, uh, and actually controlling your
state, um, before you walk out onto that stage as a conductor with this immense responsibility
of guiding these musicians through a performance that can be a crushing burden. So you have to be
very mentally prepared for that scenario. So I'm nervous every time, not to the point of like,
you know, throwing up or anything like that. Like I'm sort of, I've got a routine. I put myself as
close, um, as I can to in the zone, um, as, as it works for me at least. And I try and be, um,
you know, calm and stable out there for the musicians. So, you know, that's the
I feel the responsibility to them. It's like, I have to be as good as they are at their job
and then we can do something amazing, you know?
Beautifully said. I read that you're a fan of, uh, of visualization and meditation and
mindful. Can you tell us about your practice? Can you go a little bit micro there? What sort
of things do you do to achieve that?
I do a lot of visualization. I mean, it's funny, the way that we prepare as conductors is that,
um, we learn a piece of music from the notes on a page generally,
you know, you can access recordings and things, but that's not really the way you do it as a
conductor. You're building up your own version.
I had a naive question. This may, uh, embarrass me here, but as I was reading and watching
and listening and in preparation for this and looking at you reading music, is that universal?
So if you're reading a piece, it is. There's no, so there won't be a German twist to it or
a Spanish twist to it. It's music's written.
In, in Western music. So, you know, um, yes, the notation is universal. That's the beauty of it
because any musician can go to these countries that use that.
They can create a system of notation, um, which has been built up over centuries now
and make music. They don't have to speak the language. They can just make music and conducting
is like that too. Every conductor is different, but there is a framework that is universal.
So that means you can communicate through music without words anyway.
Yeah. And I'm sorry to interrupt your train of thought. You're talking about what you do to
get into that state, into that zone.
Yeah. So visualizing. So when I'm reading the score, you know, the, the goal is to build up a,
a sound picture in your mind of how you want the piece to go. And that in itself is a visualization.
It's sort of just a sonic visualization. So you can sit in a chair, close your eyes and imagine
a piece from start to finish. And that's really powerful because not only are you, are you thinking
about the music and sort of forming your interpretation of the piece, you're actually
visualizing how you want the performance to go as well. So that's one aspect of it in the,
in the immediate, um,
you know, standing side of stage and in, and in the dressing room waiting for the,
for the call. Um, obviously there's breathing and that kind of thing, but for me, it's,
it's the reinforcement of basic principles. It's, it's exactly like, you know, sport in that sense.
I've heard so many sports people talk about just going back to basics and simplifying everything
down to, for me, it's forget yourself. Think about the music. So take my ego away,
for that period of time, when I'm out there, you know, I can, I can put it back on when I'm finished,
but honestly, for that time, it's just take away everything else and focus on what your job is.
That's the music at that point in time. And then the music becomes everything. So that's that when
I, when it's all working, that's how I feel. It doesn't work all the time.
And does that help you in, in life as well? Having that capacity, I'm going to ask you about
meditation as well, but I suppose that ability to be out of compartmentalize and, you know,
in other areas of your life.
I'm not so good at that. Yeah. I feel like I use up a lot of my discipline in, in the, in the work.
So, yeah, I, I, I, I feel like, well, like, you know, if I come back after, you know,
three weeks on the road or something, or, I mean, at the moment I've just done 12 weeks because,
you know, after the pandemic's not over, but after the lockdowns, the arts organizations
are making up for lost time. So it's just been flat chat.
So I am usually just really burned out at the end of those long stints. And I feel like I haven't
managed that very well in my life. So it's, or it's been, you know, too, too kind of high octane
in terms of the approach to taking all the work. And that's the thing when you're a freelancer,
you think, oh, well, if I'm free, I'll say yes, you know, and I love the work so much,
but I have to get better at actually managing my time.
And making sure that I'm not neglecting my family, making sure that I'm doing good work,
making sure I've got time to prepare, recover, all that stuff. So, yeah, I, I would say I,
I am a work in progress in that area, Luke. I think we all are, Ben, aren't we? It's that,
I find that same challenge, isn't it? You want to achieve enough and support your family enough
by achieving. And, and that's, you know, without that, we really aren't able to do anything,
but at the same time, not miss the point of life, do you? And I always talk, you know,
in guilt that we, I've always felt, you know, as a father of four and, you know, even our travel
through being on the road through winter and you miss out on certain things, it's that sweet spot
you're always searching for. I'm not sure we ever exactly find it, but perhaps even just in the
consciousness of trying to do it, we may be at least ahead of the game in that sense that you
are thinking about it. You know, what I have learned from it all is being present in whatever
moment you're in. That's the one thing, because, because the music happens just in real time. It's
That's where it is. It's then, and you know, you, you, you, as a leader thinking ahead a bit,
but actually it's all happening in that moment and you're fully aware and you're in this heightened
state of awareness actually as a performer, because of all the nerves and the adrenaline
that's flying through your body and the alertness levels and all this kind of stuff.
When I'm with my, with my kids and, and, um, Joe, my wife, you know, I try and bring that
same level of presence and just like, okay, I'm just going to be here now.
And concentrate on my kids. And so I have learned that. Um, that's one thing that I'll say.
That's a great gift to share because you, you know, you can be around, but not be there,
can't you? And so the guilt is I'm away, but then a lot of people are there and not there as well.
I have to touch on the sporting connection to the family. Uncle John,
he's a legend of, uh, of the game that I, uh, loved and was lucky enough to play. He's a
two-time premiership player in the brilliant Richmond sides, 1967 and 69. And then,
and coached over 300 games. Is, does your love of sort of Richmond come through Uncle John Northy or?
Yeah, we were always Tigers. So growing up, um, because of the premierships, I was born in 70.
So I missed those flags, but, uh, dad is, uh, his name's Bob. He's John's older brother.
And, uh, he taught him how to kick and they were brought up in Darren Allum in the Western
district. And dad was a very fine footballer as well, but ended up being an academic.
And so he went to uni, uh, Johnny famously went on to play for the Tigers.
And, and, uh, I was just fascinated by his journey, you know, cause I was a teenager when
he got to Melbourne, but he'd been coaching in Ballarat before that he was coaching country
league, um, Victorian country side. I think he was coach of that, that team initially
Redan back in the day in Ballarat league, uh, three premierships in a row. He was captain coach.
So he was still playing. It was amazing. Yeah. And his body was stuffed and, you know,
he was still out there, um, you know, yelling at people and leading by example. And then, yeah,
he got that, that, uh, initially job at Sydney, then Melbourne, then famously Richmond, which I
was rapped about. I was like, you beauty, here we go. And you know, the 95, um, I think it was,
well, it was a qualifying final. It was, you got to a 95. Yeah.
The game before that against the Bombers, that was, that was something where I went, okay,
well, there's a sleeping giant here that I didn't know about really. And that was, you know,
Richmond one in 80, but I was sort of a bit too young to really experience that fully.
But I remember thinking, wow, there's just,
a beast ready to wake up here and didn't wake up until 2017, but it got there in the end. But no,
I learned a lot from him, seeing him work, hearing him talk about his role, um, and just observing
his journey, the ups and downs of that journey. That was, you know, quite brutal in the end,
you know, he got fired from Brisbane. And I just remember thinking, and after the 88 grand final
where Hawthorne belted the demons, I know he came around the next day and he just didn't speak,
you know, he was just sitting at the table, just destroyed, you know, and I just remember,
thinking, oh my God, look at what this does to you, you know, or can do to you. It was amazing.
It's a, it's a brutal role that isn't it. And maybe even more so the scrutiny's, uh, become
so extreme and you know, it's, you're a hero to zero, isn't it?
Yeah. It's, it's incredible. As he, uh, cross over into the music and arts world, is there,
is that shared in the family? Do you?
Well, dad, dad plays the guitar and he was sort of into, um, acting a bit, I guess,
because he'd gone to uni and done, done a bit of that there.
And, um, but Johnny, not so much. So, you know, he's more into sport and business and that kind
of thing. And so, but I mean, it's been interesting to talk to him about people management and that
was the one thing he was good at was bringing out things that people didn't know they had
in motivation. I think that was probably his greatest strength, that constant underdog thing
that he had, especially with Melbourne, um, in the eighties and getting people to achieve things
they didn't think they were capable of achieving, you know, and that I thought I can,
really use in, in music as well.
Yeah. What a gift that is. And you hear all those that played under the great sweeper
norther, your uncle, uh, the connection that you had with his probably ahead of his time,
really. And we see a lot of the great coaches now so much more about the whole person, but from,
from what you hear, uh, his players love playing, uh, for him. And it's, I love hearing that shared
sort of, um, you know, crossover in, in learning. Uh, Ben, we've been talking, you know, about what
great leadership looks like in different settings. We're becoming a bit obsessed with it. And I love
hearing from your world, a world that, you know, isn't, isn't from mine and these dimensions of
great leaders, as you said, learning people management from your uncle in the sporting
world. But we think all the leaders have a sense of self-leadership that they start there and
understand. Does that resonate with you? Um, what, what would self-leadership mean to you?
Uh, for me, I think it's, it's, uh, turning up, turning up ready for, for work. I mean, that,
that is such a big role for me. If you're a leader, you have to have a vision in order for
people to follow you. Like it's, it's so,
simple. It's ridiculous. But sometimes, you know, if you're really flat out and you haven't done the
work, you can turn up and you're a bit underdone and you're sort of making it up as you go along.
People just notice straight away. So as a conductor on the podium, it's kind of like,
you know, there's this x-ray machine, um, that people can just strip away any pretense and they
can see who you really are and where you're at. So there's no point trying to pretend that you're
anybody else. So for me, turning up ready, that, that would be the first thing. I guess the other
thing is what difference?
You're making, you know, and, and I try and do things, um, in my working life that I, that are,
that are mirrored by my values. And, and, you know, John Hopkins, this first teacher we talked
about, he was big on that. He was like, you know, think about the power of music as something bigger
than just, you know, you up there conducting the orchestra to a bunch of paying customers. What,
what can it do as a tool, as a medium? And so, you know, I'm often reflecting on my year,
like I get to the end of the year and I look back and I go, well, how, what did I do? What did I
achieve this year? And where are those areas that I think are the real value areas, you know, not
the great experiences of, you know, what's the best concert, but actually what difference did
you make for other people? And, and I reckon that's probably self-leadership to me, you know,
where are you making the difference? And music has unlimited potential in that area, uh, just in so
many different ways. And actually the,
orchestras are doing really good work in that area too.
Yeah. What a brilliant answer, Ben. And, you know, coming back and listening to you and thinking of
all the challenges the world currently, you know, faces and, you know, we've still got wars going on
in 2022 and what's happening over in that part of the world is incredibly upsetting, of course,
in Ukraine. And, and then you think of what you do with the universal language of music, being
able to go and bring teams of people together and show that collaboration and connection doesn't
have different, uh, you know, it doesn't, uh,
require borders. You can actually share with anyone. And, you know, it feels like, you know,
do you sort of think about it, that altruistic level in some ways that you're an example to
what great collaboration and connection looks like?
I'd like to think so. Every now and again, you feel like, you know, some major world event
happens. You think, well, what can I do? You know, as a musician, how ridiculous, you know,
what a peripheral kind of irrelevant activity, um, this is, but actually then you realize,
well, it's, it's what you decide to do with it. It's the tool that you have, right? So our
expertise, whatever it is in our lives, that becomes the way that you can, uh, influence
others, make a difference, improve the experience of life for people. And I just think in terms of,
yeah, what, what you're talking about in, um, listening to and cooperating, collaborating,
but it's actually, um, it's understanding other, other people, their perspectives,
including people in the experience of an orchestra is a powerful gift that you can give to people.
It can change people's lives. We've got a completely new generation of musicians coming
through now that are from extraordinarily diverse backgrounds. They're enriching the culture of the
organizations that they're joining, um, bringing these new ideas and perspectives. Uh, we're able
to connect with people in different ways now than that the orchestras never did before. You know,
it was always seen as a sort of a high level elitist activity. It's sort of still is that,
It's not only that it's much more than that. And it's much more, um, relevant and accessible to
more people now, which I'm really proud of too. It's brilliant. Ben, we're seeing leaders are
really conscious of how they positively impact other people every day in their environment,
listening to you already talking about your humility and turning up for the musicians and
taking your ego away when you stand up there and conduct an orchestra. I mean, clearly that's
something you think about regularly. Is that, is that how you think about daily having that
positive impact on people? I think so. I hope it's the right thing to do.
Like, I'm not convinced that it's, you know, I, why do you say that? Well, only because, um,
there's a time actually to just be strong and, and stand there and go, no, no, no, this is what
we're doing. And have you got that in you? Do you do that? I, I, it's, it's sort of subtle for me.
Um, so it's, it's there, but it's sort of like a, um, what would I say? It's a insistence,
a quiet insistence rather than a throw your, you know, the toys out of the cot kind of thing.
Um, and every lead is different and I can probably work on that. Actually. I've seen,
I've observed recently, even other leaders just being way more direct. And I think actually,
that's probably the right thing to do. That's, that's going to save a lot of time and just get
straight to the point. We've talked about that actually, um, a little bit in, in the
leader group as well. Um, but yeah, I, I sort of, I like that because it works for me and,
and it really comes down to respecting others and, and, um, understanding that they,
they want to feel empowered as well. They want to have their chance to
be part of this creative process. They don't want to just be drones who are sitting there,
you know, taking orders. They want to feel like a leader as well. All, everyone wants that,
wants that sense. So if you can create an environment where everyone feels like they
can contribute, wow, you know, that's when things can really spark.
And I love your language, man, because it's what we really see is this big shift is that you don't
need the title. You don't have to be the conductor.
You know, again, not knowing your world, but the person who turns up plays and really has that
positive energy to the person that supports them to play a little bit better, or it's just kind in
the way they approach it. I mean, you can genuinely make significant impact with small
gestures, can't you? Yeah. And you can model that behavior. I think that's the biggest thing. It's,
and, and culture of, of these big groups, because they've got a massive negative bias. So the
psychology of the large groups of people is negative. That's just how it is.
In all the large groups, do you mean?
Well, I think orchestras in particular, because it's a frustrating job as an individual,
you feel powerless, you know, and, and so you're relying so much on the conductor to set the
culture, set the tone. And, you know, I've, I've felt, I've found that that's a big part of the
job actually is, is, and culture. I mean, that's so important in every organization, you know,
is this a good working environment? Are we creating an atmosphere where we can
really be our best and contribute and, and,
and bring out the best in others and respect other people, all that kind of stuff. And also
acknowledge that there is an expectation that we bring in. If it's not being met, address it
head on. Yeah. So, you know, there's all these things around organizational culture. You just
got to keep at those things. It doesn't happen automatically. And all the research says,
I mean, the amount of time and effort and money and resources you put into improving culture,
you get returned back exponentially, almost more than any other thing you can do in any business
or in the world of arts or social venture or whatever it is. But it's often the thing people
overlook because you'd rather put another person on sales or sell another ticket. But we know
sustainable success comes from clearly what you're doing, which is building great culture and
continue. We've heard you talk a lot about vision and it's, it's the next dimension I'd ask you
about. So Lee's really conscious about how they create and share their vision. It sounds like
you've got a pretty clear formula on that. Can you share that with us?
Well, I've got ideas. I've got ideas. I've got ideas. I've got ideas. I've got ideas. I've got
ideas around the ultimate performance of a piece, you know, when I, when I come out onto the podium,
um, but it never works out that way, you know? So, so it doesn't like my vision can be very strong,
but it's always got built in flexibility. And that's what I'm talking about in, in it's
collaborative. It's not a power thing. It's not like, this is what we're going to do. I can say
that at the beginning of a week. And that's great. That makes everyone feel like, okay, good. This
person's got a clear plan. Can I understand that for a second,
man? Sorry to jump in again, but I'm trying to, so you've got the vision for the, for the piece
and you're conducting them in the way that you are, but a certain section suddenly, you know,
gets, catches fire for want of a better term. And you think, Hey, that sounds better. And I can
let that go more than I initially planned. Is that the sort of living, breathing?
Exactly. Yes. You've worked it out. So, so that's the thing you let it, you know what it is? You've
got to know when to help. And that means lead.
And know when to get out of the way and let them, let them do it. So that's, that's the,
the balancing act that's going on there. And so, you know, you might hear something,
you might hear a player play something that you really like, and it's different than how you
thought about it. And it's great. And you just, what are you going to do? You get to get out of
the way, let, let that magic happen. And it's different also, depending on where you are,
what orchestra you're working with that particular group dynamic, what their strengths
weaknesses are, the hall you're in, different acoustic sounds, the occasion, you know, energy
levels of the group, time of the day. I mean, there's so many variables around this that you
have to be ready to respond as well as lead. You know, that's what I've learned. It's, you've got
to be so alert to be able to respond. I'm fascinated by it. I find it so, so your, would
you have a good read if you go over to London or, you know, I mentioned in the intro, the,
the international space.
Have you got a good idea who the French horn player is and the oboe? Is it to that level of
detail or on the night you're getting surprised by how someone's doing something that you didn't
Oh, that, that happens. That spontaneity happens in performances, but it's more the rehearsal
process because that's when the conductor really does their work. It's, it's away from the
performance space. It's, it's the working the orchestra out, especially a new orchestra. So
one of the teachers in Finland, he said, know who the divas are in the orchestra.
So if there's somebody who you really need to be aware of, find out early, get there though.
Yeah. Just yeah. Principal oboe. Yeah. Okay. Be ready. Be ready. And so, you know, you,
you were, and that's part of the working with the personalities as well, but also
celebrating what they can bring as, as individual leaders in, within the orchestra itself. There's,
there's all of that hierarchy going on as well. So.
It's amazing. I heard you talk about curiosity a lot. And as, as a kid, just following curiosity
into different instruments, we see the leaders now really curiosity is their launching pad for
then how they learn and continue to develop. Can you share with us what, what curiosity means for
Yeah, I was lucky that particularly mum, cause she was the sort of the musical one in the family.
She allowed that to happen. So she, when I was playing the violin at primary school piano,
Primary school. And I, I think it was in grade two. And I said, I want to learn the trumpet,
you know? And I, I don't know if my kid said that to me. I'd probably say, yeah, sure. But
deep down, I'd be thinking, oh, is this the right thing? Like, shouldn't I make them stick out one
instrument for longer? And she was like, yeah, no worries. I was, I'm not going to play the violin
anymore. Okay. So went and played trumpet for four years and then grade six, I want to learn the
flute mum, you know? Yep. Okay. No worries. I'll get you a flute and, you know, ordered a flute
And then it was, oh, I want to learn the saxophone. And so there was this constant permission to be
curious as, as a kid. And I think, um, you know, that, that taught me a great lesson because it
was like, well, I, you know, this isn't a bad thing to be sort of moving on to the next thing
all the time, to be fair. When I got to the saxophone, I really zoomed in on that and, um,
that became my thing. Uh, but you know, that's at the root of development and, and has to be
rewarded. And, and actually, you know, the things that we've spoken about in that,
the group often I've been struck by the curiosity of all of those high level leaders in their roles.
That's actually probably the one thing that they've got in common there. They're constantly
looking for the next way to learn and progress and develop. And that's curiosity. So it's at
the base of everything, isn't it? It's all learning, you know, that's what you want to
teach your kids to be curious. It's all, it's better than teaching them anything concrete facts,
anything like that. If you can instill a sense of curiosity in a young mind, job done.
What a brilliant, uh, summation of, uh, you know, it's inspiring to hear you to, to sum it up in
that particular way. I mean, communicating with clarity is something that we see leaders are
really understand their communications strategy and yours is so unique again, isn't it? Because
it's not spoken word when you're performing. And, and then also, I suppose, you know, you,
you're incredibly articulate as well in trying to expand your space and
bring people together. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's
I suppose that's part of it. Can you explain how you've gone about your communication?
Yeah. I, um, had some really great models here. There's, there've been some great communicators
in music. You know, we're talking about, um, there's an older American conductor who,
who passed away decades ago, Leonard Bernstein, right? And he might be familiar. He wrote West
Side Story, musical theatre expert like you, West Side Story. I conceded that, uh, I married a,
uh, musical theatre performer back and, uh, was pretending in the early phase of our relationship
that I was a very much, uh, an attender of, uh, musical theatre, but got found out pretty quickly,
but, uh. No, no, but he was a great communicator and educator and he talked about music a lot.
And this is funny because music doesn't really need to be spoken about. It can just be experienced
and everyone experiences it differently. And it's, there's no right or wrong way to experience music,
but it is interesting as, um, a way to learn how to appreciate it more to hear someone talk about
it. So, um, you know, I've done a lot of education concerts for school kids and all kinds of even
adults as well, where we unpack a piece of music and talk about how it, how it's built and possible
meanings behind it. What's a composer trying to say, uh, through this piece of music. And yeah,
I, I've enjoyed that aspect of it. And I do, as you could probably tell from this podcast,
enjoy talking. Uh, so I, I now incorporate that into the beginning of my weeks, you know,
cause I've realized the orchestras appreciate,
that as well. So take my five to 10 minutes at the first rehearsal, just to talk about what I want
to achieve out of the week and what I think, what our goals are and our mission and why this is an
important week reset everybody's, you know, expectations and possible prejudices against
a project or something. And, you know, explain why it's important, get everybody buying into that
first and then get into the music after that. And you don't have to talk so much. So yeah,
it's, it's interesting, but,
but conducting of course is a, a non-verbal art form. So in the concert, you're not speaking,
uh, it's all gestural and body language, facial expressions, and you have to communicate
everything with those tools. So that is a big challenge.
And is that something that just evolves as well? Are you, did you, is it a learned skill in, in,
in, and is it, is there a certain cues that all conductors use? I mean, or is it?
Well, there are, there are musical cues to invite,
to invite someone to play at the right time because often they don't play for ages. And
then suddenly they've got to come in with an entry and you can, you can, I call it an invitation
rather than a cue. Like it's not point and say now, you know, it's like it makes a magic. Can't
wait to hear this. Um, and then there are other players you learn very quickly, never look at
them. They, they, they perform worse when you look at them and create that expectation. And so I've
worked out there, you know, not many, but there are some players that you're better off just
Um, and, and doing their own thing.
And understand that they will be watching along anyway. And, and yeah,
they'll know, they'll know what to do. And they're in their own world and they're,
they're, they're better like that. And they're going to perform better. Particularly we're
talking about French horn solos. Like often it's them who are, who are just like, no, no, no,
I don't need any distractions. I just need to be in the zone here in my own little world to make
this work. Um, but you know, some players enjoy a smile. Um, it, it all depends on the, the musician,
but also the music. So you're sort of trying to visually paint the emotions of the music
in your face and in your body. That's really interesting.
I know I'll keep going back to the sporting analogies, which, because they're so profound
for me and what you do and the way coaching has evolved in the, you know, in the past, it was,
this is the way, you know, it's done. And if you're not capable, then you're out and you're
weak and you're, and it was really left a lot of people who just had different as you know,
needs of how they needed to be coached. It just was so,
so unproductive when you look back and you think the sophistication now to understand that,
you know, people respond differently. That's just the way it works. And so
to hear that in, in the orchestral sense as well as.
Don't you reckon that's also the expectation that the leaders felt?
Yeah. Yeah. In fairness to them, I agree.
They thought that was the job.
It's, it's really interesting.
It's a good point. And I reckon I'm a little, you know, you're trying to apply 2022 logic to
it's never fair, is it? No, it's never fair. I think probably spawned,
a generation like you though, who probably looked and thought, certainly did in, in sport
from my, I went, I think there's a better way. Yeah. There's a, there's a better way.
I think there's a healthier way that.
We'll achieve more success. So it's, it's a profound how it's happened in, in our time.
Collaboration is your world and we see collaboration now for leaders as being
something they really value. I mean, clearly you don't get to do anything without collaboration,
but can you, can you describe what it means to you?
Yeah, I, I, I love that part of the job and for me doing the different kinds of, um,
combinations of genre. So you'll have the orchestra and, uh, you know, a comedian,
or you'll have an orchestra and a rock band or, um, artists from different areas,
non-classical areas, often a theater thing, or, you know, just, there's so many different
kinds of, um, uh, areas of music that orchestras are reaching into now and reaching a much wider
audience through that as well.
And that's the, that's the bringing of two worlds. Uh, and, and that conductor becomes
the kind of person who's the translator, you know, between these two worlds. And,
uh, I love that because that's the understanding. And often when people get, um, to the point where
they've got a concert with an orchestra, if they're, you know, a pop singer or somebody,
somebody who doesn't work with orchestras all the time, that's like a serious high point of
their careers. Like I'm here with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. I'm about to perform with
them. And they are,
I'm terrified most of the time. And that's another part of my job is to kind of say,
no, no, it's not this big, scary thing, you know, well, it can be, but it doesn't have to be. And,
and so let's find what we've got in common here and let me be that conduit to, to take some of
that heat off how you're feeling and it's going to be fine, you know, don't worry about it. And so
I really enjoy that role. I gotta say, I just, I love bringing these, these, um, incongruous
kind of worlds of, of different music together.
You mentioned that in, you know, you've worked with Ben Folds and Nick Cave and James
Morris and Archie Roach and the list goes on and on and on and on and other classical, uh,
legends, uh, of music. Is that been one of your real passions around, you know, bringing that
sort of those combining those worlds? Is that?
I think it's just been a product of my background because I have played in very many different
kinds of musical groups. I mean, the Nick Cave, Warren Ellis one was very interesting. Um,
Warren Ellis turns out it's from Ballarat, same as me.
And we had the same, uh, flute teacher when we were kids, which we didn't know. And, and,
you know, Warren's like, you know, mega rock star and, uh, he and Nick have got into composing
music for films and they came and worked with the MSO the first time they'd ever worked with
an orchestra. And, and these are two legendary world musicians. And it was all of a sudden,
like they were little kids again, you know, like with the orchestra. Yeah. They were just like,
this is a world we don't understand. And, um, you know, that was such a
collaboration because it showed to me that they had started their lives as, as, um, rock musicians
in bands. They've gone on this amazing global journey, evolving their musicality and now they're
writing for films and now they're absolutely comfortable being celebrated with an orchestra
playing their music. That's amazing. Like that journey there, that, that to me is, is just,
how open-minded the musical world is now. And, and that would very rarely have happened, um,
in decades gone by. Yeah. So I, I just think that's a fantastic development, the, the open-mindedness
and the fact that you can have these, these, you know, diverse experiences musically. It's so great.
My mind's going, uh, Ben to, to, to, if I'm driving in the car with Ben Northey or I'm,
I'm at home, what are, what are you listening to and how diverse? I mean, is it, is it mostly
classical or is it? No, no, God, no, no, very rare.
I mean, that's, that's kind of work for me. So, um, yeah, ABC classic is a great radio station
and I do listen to it every now and again, but I'm, I'm, I'm in a different listening space. I'm
critical. I'm analyzing, you know, I'm working. So as soon as you're listening to an orchestra
play, your mind's constantly, I'm, I'm on the podium. Yeah. I'm on the, I'm, oh, they could
have done this or, you know, why aren't they? And, oh, that was really good. Like, you know,
you can learn a lot from listening. I don't mean to say I never listened, but, um,
no, it's not, it's not classical music. The kids are dominating the air, the airwaves at our house
all the time. So there's heaps of music that I'm discovering for the first time through them,
but no, it's a wide palette, a lot of jazz. Um, I've, I've gotten in recently to, uh, I've been
doing a spot on ABC Melbourne, um, afternoons, which we call calm the farm. And it's like little
two, three minutes snippets of music just to give everyone a chance to actually recenter their day
and go, okay, just let's take a breather for a second and recalibrate and just listen. Just,
that's all just focus on one thing. People have got so much out of it. We did it during the
lockdowns and it was so popular. They've just kept it going. And, um, I've actually discovered
a whole genre of music called contemporary classical, they call it. And it's often piano
based, very meditative, minimal, not kind of new agey at all, but, but just beautiful and really
relaxing and, and, um,
sort of affirming to listen to. And so I've actually started using that quite a lot now.
Um, just in the middle of the day, just go, okay, I'm just gonna, it's like a meditation,
I guess, but it's like three minutes of just listen to music. That's a meditation as it turns
out. Calm the farm. I love it, Ben. It's funny that I consider myself not musical in any way,
but there is not a moment in the car and that's something he's playing constantly. And so you are
really, and you, and you can appreciate everything and, you know, and through your kids, you suddenly
There's a whole, you know, um, you know, there's a fair bit of rap going on this morning before I
I've got, I've got this, uh, band called Tokyo Machine that, um, cause Leo, my eight year old
son, he's massively into video games. So it's disturbing. We went to PAX on the weekend and
this big convention.
What a phenomenon that is.
Hundreds of thousands at the convention center in Melbourne. It's the biggest convention by a
factor of about two, I think.
So, so, you know, and music is huge in this, right? So video games and music, it's like film, but
video games are huge.
Video games is a bigger industry than film, all film.
It's amazing what's happened there. But anyway, he's listening to this band, Tokyo Machine and
it's all computer game music and like remixed and all this kind of stuff. And I'm listening to it
going, wow, that's like nothing I've ever heard before. That's amazing.
And you can appreciate it in that sense.
Oh yeah. Now good music's good music. That's the thing. It doesn't matter what genre it is.
It's hard to do it well. And when you hear it done well, it doesn't matter if it's a good music,
it's a three minute pop song or a 50 minute symphony, you know, there you can appreciate
the artistry in each of those things.
I love it. Ben, I've got so many more questions, but in the interest of time,
there's two final questions that I've been asking all the ladies. I've had a great privilege to sit
down alongside and learn from, as I have from you incredibly today. Who has been the greatest
leader in your life?
Wow. Big question. You know, I'd have to say the,
one of the teachers at the Sibelius Academy is a guy called Jorma Panola. And he is considered to
be the world's greatest conducting teacher, right? And he is in his nineties now, still going around
the world, giving masterclasses to groups of conductors. He's dedicated the second half of
his life to this teaching role. And he found you, didn't you? You won the prize.
Yeah. I first met him in 2001, where he was the main teacher of this Symphony Australia
Young Conductor of the Year competition. And that was the first time I'd ever met him. And I've
never met him. So it wasn't just a competition. That was a 10 week development program that
culminated in a competition that I unexpectedly won, much to the horror of some of the other
participants who'd been doing it for years. But that led me to the Sibelius Academy and he was
there as well, even though he wasn't the main teacher, I still worked with him and finished
my studies with him at the Stockholm Royal College of Music. It was like learning from Yoda,
you know, like this is the, we're talking about like Zen kind of teaching. And it was from him
that it was that.
forget-yourself-only music. He was an extraordinary person in the way that he taught. He allowed
everybody to be themselves. He brought out the strengths of everybody. He didn't have a one-size-fits-all
approach. All of his students are very different than each other. But the big thing he did was he
set up a structure of teaching that has endured. And that was the thing that struck me. I thought,
wow, the great leaders, they actually leave a legacy that remains. And so he set up a new way
of teaching conducting, which was video analysis. And people never thought about it before. And he
set up like three cameras and did all of his teaching in the video room, not while the
conductors were in front of the orchestra, which is generally how teachers had done it up to that
point, or just let people sink or swim, work it out on the job. So I really admire the fact that
he was able to reinvent conductor training globally, but also what he gave me personally,
which was just, again, like John Hopkins,
he made me believe that I could do it. And at the end, I'll never forget after I did all this work
with him, for five years or something, I worked with him and I saw a lot of him. And at the end,
he just looked at me and said, you're welcome. And it was really so moving to have that, you're ready.
Amazing. That's where I started my career. What a great story. Did he stay in touch and
follow you? Would he drop in if you were- Look, because he's in Finland,
really. And I think that was also part of his, that was your welcome. It's time for you to go
out on your own now. I've got the next group to look after. And so I keep in touch with him,
send him postcards and email, and he'll send a reply every now and again. But it was really
that sort of period of time was my time with him. And now it's other people's time with him. It's
really amazing. I love it.
In the spirit of collaboration, Ben, we're obsessed with what great collaboration looks
like and including what you're doing with the Alita Connect group we mentioned and collaborating,
bringing people together to share. Is there anyone in the world, I mean, or maybe even
historically, if you could come back and get Mozart back or if you could collaborate with
anyone on any project and anything, is there someone that might spring to mind?
Oh, there's so many people you'd love to reanimate. I mean,
there's so many questions I'd have for some of these bloody composers that you work with,
because, you know, they write this stuff down and you've got to work it out and you can't call
them up and ask questions and everyone's got a different idea. I think, you know, this is a
little bit in my area and I'm sure there's more interesting people out there that I could think
of, but actually asking Ludwig van Beethoven some questions at a dinner party would be very
appealing because he was somebody who,
who incorporated politics into his music. He was one of the first people really to do that
and the meaning behind what he was writing about, he sort of covers more spiritual terrain than any
other composer and people talk about Beethoven and I don't know what people's image is when they
hear that name, you know, of this grumpy old composer with grey hair and everything and
he was that, but he just had this amazing humanity in him as well.
But he was using music for something bigger than what it was. So he was trying to send a message
in his symphonies. So Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is about rebellion. It's about resistance. It's
about not, you know, putting up with, at that point it was the Napoleonic Empire and sweeping
through Europe at that time. You know, there's always these subtexts to music. Beethoven's Ninth
Symphony, the Ode to Joy, the Choral Symphony. That's about borderless worlds. That's about one,
you know, one planet, everybody being united through music. So it's that kind of level,
I reckon that, you know, it's a great model to look back on. I'd love to ask him more about that,
that's for sure. Was it controversial at the time, the politics? Did that create some enemies for him?
He had to be very careful. Yeah. So he was in Vienna at that time,
when he was in Vienna, he was in Vienna, he was in Vienna, he was in Vienna, he was in Vienna,
the Fifth Symphony, and that was a police state basically. And he was very subversive and he had
to be very careful. He did, he did get into trouble every now and again, but you know,
there's composers through history have done that. Some of the Russian composers, Shostakovich in the
20th century had his music cancelled by the regime over there, Stalin. So, you know, the musicians
have been using their music in all of these ways for centuries, you know, it's been going on.
And was Beethoven as appreciated at the time? Was he as massive as he should have been?
Yeah, he was one of the guys who actually was revered when he was alive. Now, many of them
weren't. So, you know, Mozart, you know, famously died at 34 and nobody celebrated his passing. And
it was only later, because back in those days, you didn't re-perform music of people. They would
write it for a certain thing and you just do it and then it was done. And it was only in the 19th
century, people looked back and they were like, oh, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,
we're getting onto another podcast here. People would look back on it and go, you know what,
we should play that music again. And that's when the understanding came. Now we're probably
overbalanced too far where we don't play enough new music. You know, we need to get back to that.
It's brilliant, Ben. As I said, I keep having questions. It's a space that I'm
fascinated about and I'm really grateful that you've taken the time and explained the genius
of your world. It's a great story. I feel really grateful that you were able to take the time.
Thanks so much. No, no worries, Luke. Anytime.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer with audio
production by Darcy Thompson. To start your leadership journey, I encourage you to go to
elitacollective.com, take our Empowering Leaders indicator tool and understand the impact you have
on your environment. Join us at Elita to learn, lead and collaborate.