Andy Friend is one of the world's most respected rugby coaches
with a career spanning more than three decades.
Andy shares his really clear vision for what it takes to be successful
in a team environment and the clear boundaries he sets up
to make this happen.
My message to all the young coaches when I'm working with the coaches
that I'm working with now is, you know, when they say we've got
a big event on, I say, go home, mate.
Oh, no, no, I've got to, no, no, no, go home.
The loneliness of leadership is something we hear often in this podcast
and Andy Friend shares his passion for setting up support networks
and trusted friends that you can count on.
Yeah, it can be very lonely because there is a perception
that leaders have all the answers.
People often leave them alone.
They go, oh, it's probably too scary to go and have a chat to that play.
This is where I reckon leaders have to have their critical friends
They've got to have three or four people that normally aren't even
So my wife is one, a really good mate who I'll pick up the phone
and I'll ring him if ever I'm battling through with something.
So you need to have three of them.
My father's probably the other one.
Australian rugby has fallen behind the other codes despite its proud history.
Andy Friend shares his thoughts on what needs to change.
We put a lot of games on at 7.30 in the evening.
Tickets became very expensive.
We lost the generation of kids wanting to come through and play it
and kids can't just turn on the telly and watch their heroes.
So that's a real simple, simplistic version to us.
There's a lot of other things going on that need to be addressed
and there are some good people in the building there trying
to address those things at the moment.
It's been a great privilege for us.
It's been a great privilege to collaborate with Andy Friend
in our Elita Connect program.
Andy has in his group Scott Selwood, AFL legend, Cam Serrato from the NRL,
Matt Nielsen of San Antonio Spurs and Jonas Edevale from Arsenal,
a group of elite coaches getting together to learn, to connect
and to collaborate.
You don't need to be an elite coach to be part of Elita.
Head to elitacollective.com today, book a discovery call.
We'd love to connect with you.
Big thanks to the team at Temper Bedding, a mattress like no other.
Appreciate their support of bringing conversations like this
Investing in a brilliant temper mattress is a decision you won't regret.
For nearly 30 years, Andy Friend has been one of the most respected coaches
Former head coach of the Brumbies, Australian men's rugby sevens
and successful stints over many years in Japan and Ireland,
having himself represented Australia as a schoolboy in the late 80s.
Andy has recently launched Performance Friend, his consultancy business
supporting leaders to unlock their potential and find balance
in often highly stressful and scrutinised roles.
It's great to meet you today.
Thanks for joining me.
No, lovely to meet you too, Darcy, and thanks for having me on.
Andy, 30 years of coaching at the elite level, I'm assuming you gather
a fair bit of expertise.
I want to ask you, if you could go back and start again,
what would you tell yourself as a then 23 or 24-year-old that you might do
if you're starting out again?
I would have said slow down.
I was always in a hurry, mate.
Most young people are.
You look back now, like when I was 24, when I started my career,
I didn't feel like I was young.
That was as old as I'd ever been, so I felt like I was pretty experienced.
As you get older, you do realise that with time comes experience,
and probably like everything in my life, I've always been in a hurry
to be the best version of myself.
So I would be telling myself just to chill, slow down, still work hard.
I do believe in working hard, and I do believe in stretching myself,
but probably not be in the hurry that I was in.
So when you say slow down, do you mean just take some more time,
is there more balance in it, that perhaps you delegate more?
What sort of detail would you go into with that?
I've actually been a good delegator, and I believe I'm a good delegator.
Back in the day, like when I first started at DARS, I was a skills coach.
I was a coaching coordinator.
I had a young family, though, and I'm thankfully still married.
I've got two beautiful boys, so we've got a great family.
But it's probably because of the patience of my wife, Kerry,
and the fact that she allowed me to be or chase this career.
But if I do look back on it now, I mean, I gave up a lot of things that,
you know, birthdays, anniversaries, graduations, watching games of footy,
that if I could have my time again, I attempted to be the best father
I could be as well, and there are sacrifices, I think,
in any job that you do.
But my message to all the young coaches when I'm working with the coaches
that I'm working with now is, you know, when they say we've got a big event,
I say, go home, mate.
Oh, no, no, go home.
I need you to go home.
Now, I didn't have that voice on my shoulder telling me to do it.
Certainly, you know, when I started coaching in rugby union,
the game had just gone professional.
I think everyone was trying to work out what does this new professional game
look like, what does it mean?
And I think the answer everyone came to, we've got to be busier.
You know, we've got to fill our days.
So I was definitely a part of that.
But the longer you're involved in the game, you realise that, yes,
you need to work hard, but there needs to be good balance and there needs
to be a good balance.
There needs to be time spent at home with family.
There needs to be time spent on your own to make sure that you're getting
what you need to fill your cup.
I know I didn't do that as well as I could have done.
That's a great message, is not to miss the important occasions along the way.
What's been the biggest shift you've seen in three decades of coaching?
We've gone from what was an amateur game, and only just recently I learnt
the Latin definition of amateur, and the Latin definition
of amateur is I will love.
And I think that's brilliant.
I'm an amateur sportsman.
I will love my sport.
And we've gone into professional sport.
Well, what does that mean?
Well, you get paid for what you're doing.
But if we ever lose the love and the passion for what we're doing, in my opinion,
we've lost the ethos of the game.
We've lost why we actually started playing the game.
So over time, I've seen that the I love, I will love version of the game drop off
because we now get into, well, how much is he getting?
And why aren't I getting that much?
And where else can I jump over to, you know, to get back into the game?
And where else can I get the next thing?
And that's been the biggest disappointment for me is we all start playing whatever sport
it is that we play.
We start because we absolutely love it.
And as soon as, and so in my mind as a coach, I want to encourage that and I need to keep
I need to keep reminding people that's what we're doing.
I do understand that there is times when you'll want to earn more money.
I've got no issue with that.
But don't lose the passion for what it is that we're doing.
And I think over time, that's probably what I've seen.
I've seen that drop off a little bit.
Andy, I think that's the saddest thing you see is, as you said, someone starting out
who loved their sport or loved their chosen profession, that suddenly the stress and the
anxiety or the pressure to perform takes that joy away and you can see it in them, can't
It seems to me that's happening more and more in professional sport that day.
Has that been your observation?
And, you know, I think back when I started, it was all about how skillful you were and
how fit you were, basically.
Were you fast, strong and erratic?
Were you aerobically fit?
And did you have a skill set?
And, you know, I now work on three big pillars in my coaching, body, craft and mind.
The mind never came into it.
But to me, we've always worked on body and craft.
But the mind, as we all know now, Darce, is such a massive part of our game.
So because of the influence of social media and because of the pressure that our young
sports people are under, and everyone has an opinion on how they're going, the way we
can work with our athletes to control that mind and to make sure that...
They've got the right mentors around them and the right messages are getting to them.
And they don't need to listen to the outside noise, then the better they're going to perform.
But that in itself is a massive task.
Performance friend, as I mentioned, the consultancy that you're up and running and passing on
the lessons you've learned over three decades of elite coaching.
If someone's listening and they may be an aspiring sporting coach or a school teacher
or an entrepreneur and wanting to have success, what's the main message you would distill
This little business kicked off, my wife and I were traveling around Europe and I'd said,
listen, I'm going to finish coaching.
I'm back in coaching now, just quietly, so you don't stay away for too long.
But my big message to Kez is, listen, I'm not leaving Canberra again, so we're parked
So I've kept my promise in that one.
But when we were traveling around Australia, with all that experience, and you probably
I probably didn't recognize that I was picking up experience because I don't think too much
beyond what's in front of me at the moment.
When you talk to people, you realize, actually, I have picked up a lot of experience over
When we were traveling around Europe, we said, well, if I was to start a business, what would
And it would be to help leaders unlock potential, exactly what you said at the front end of
But we said, well, how do you do that?
And there were five key pillars which we focused on.
The first one was purely a rugby one.
So it's around tactical, technical stuff within the game of rugby union.
My other key message before I go further with that, Darcy, I'm not here to tell anyone what
That's not my job.
It's their own way, their own style.
But I will challenge your thinking.
I will support your thinking if I think it's good, but I'll challenge your thinking if
And I challenge it through a range of deep questions.
So the first thing was around rugby technical, tactical knowledge.
The second one was around leadership.
What is leadership?
What type of leader are you?
Do you know what type of leader you are and what you currently are and what you aspire
And how do you get either to where you're aspiring to get to or how do you be the best
version of that leader that you believe you are?
many different types of leadership my third pillar was around behaviors and values so what are my
values and am i living those out and if i'm not what do i change my values or my behaviors the
fourth one was around building a safe sustainable culture of probably environments probably the word
i prefer but how do we do that as leaders and then the fifth one which is probably the biggest one
which answers your question is self-awareness self-reflection so what makes me as a leader
the best leader that i can be what do i need to have to make sure that i'm at my best thinking
at my optimum getting the right balance in my life because it's only when you're right you know it's
the classic put the oxygen mask on yourself before you help your kids on the plane do the same in
life put the oxygen mask on yourself get the stuff that you need to make your function and when you
can do that you'll be the best version for for what it is you're attempting to do so they're the
five pillars but that
last one seems to be the one that's resonating the most with people and um it's probably the
one i'm working the most on yeah it's interesting that is the question i want to ask you in a moment
what you do to for your cup essentially i'll come back to that in a moment but i'm interested
we had a lot of people i've spoken to on this podcast who have spoken about the loneliness
of leadership you know especially the elite coaches that i think i've spoken to is that
is that something you felt along the way that it can be lonely yeah it can be very lonely it can
be very lonely on lots of different fronts
i think um there is the perception if you're the leader that um you have all the answers no one has
the answers no one has all the answers um i heard john birch and i was on a one of the elite master
classes with him just recently and i loved he said the only thing i know is that i don't know
and i love that i reckon that was brilliant i've stolen that and i've used it a few times because
the only thing i know is that i don't know so i will have an idea on some some things so one of
the things that i like to think i am i'm considered i will consider everything that i know and i'm
more than happy to listen to opinions but i'll i'll either make my own mind up or if i don't know
i'll seek further guidance and advice because there is a perception that leaders have all the
answers people often leave them alone like i was probably too scary to go and have a chat to that
bloke the second part about it is you know you make some pretty tough calls when you're sitting
at the top of the tree you're you're employing people or you're letting people go you're renewing
contracts or you're not renewing contracts you you know you make some big calls and you're not
on on how we're going to do certain things that that won't appease everybody you make selections
every single week that virtually two-thirds of your squad are going to have the the you know
they're going to have the year it's with you because you haven't selected them so there's a
lot of things that your decisions that you're making that have the potential to alienate you
from others but that's part of the job you know leadership's a it's a it's an action it's not
it's not just a title so you've got to be able to live those and because of that it can be a lonely
this is where i reckon leaders have to have their critical friends around them they've got to have
three or four people that normally aren't even in the building so my wife is one for example
i've got a really good mate who i'll pick up the phone and i'll ring him if ever i'm i'm battling
through with something i actually did have one of my one of my last staff was it was a very good
critical friend for me it was actually my ceo and i could just pick up the phone and give give willie
a call and he'd give me his view on something so you need to have three of my father's probably
the other one you need to have three of my father's probably the other one you need to have
three or four that depending upon the pain you're having at the moment you can reach out to these
certain people and they can they can guide you and say no listen you're from everything i've
known mate you you're on the right track or yeah red flag there friendly i'd avoid that one
and uh you mentioned uh leader connect we've been really privileged to cross over with you and
um your group understands that a fantastic connection janice edervale from arsenal and
cam serrato from canterbury in the nrl scott selwood uh from the collingwood football club
nelson from the san antonio spurs can you tell us about that experience how's it been for you
collaborating with a group like that oh it's been brilliant darce and and and you know stacy leads
it really well for us as well so yeah just uh i mean it was actually eddie jones that told me about
it when i was having a chat to eddie he said listen i actually a bigger part it wasn't it was
neil craig craig he said to me listen i've got a duck on this elite of course and i said what's
that he said oh you know he shared he shared it really briefly he said give eddie a call mate and
he'll send you the information so i gave eddie a call he said mate it's brilliant so he gave him
and um uh i had a chat to matt and then yeah we we linked up with our group and and we've just
gone into the meeting once every five six weeks and it feels feels distant like it was really
cool when we're meeting every fortnight and we've all sort of said jesus can we can we hurry this
thing up can we not be a little bit early because you you what you realize in in that in the group
darce is you've just got everyone's got the same sort of pains right everyone's got whatever the
issues are you've either had the pain or you're
currently going through the pain or you're or actually it's like oh this is coming then um and
it's just a great sharing which and it probably goes to show the fact that back to your point
leadership and head coaching and at the top end it can be very lonely because people don't share
and certainly people within the same sport don't tend to share because everyone feels that they've
got the secret you know we're going to hold it pretty tight um my observations of that the more
you share the better you become if you don't share you become an island and you miss out on a lot of
so um i share everything i allow anyone to come into our practice you're welcome to come in and
have a look if you're prepared to write to me and say you want to come and observe us come through
the door the only thing i need from you tell me one of three things as you leave or tell me three
things as you leave what was the thing that was most impressive to you what was the thing you
thought you would see but you didn't see and what was the thing you saw but you've seen it done
better and you wouldn't mind telling us about it and so not only when we get people coming through
more than happy to to share everything we're doing but i need to get some growth out of it too and
with those three simple questions we tend to get a bit of growth yeah i love it i love the openness
to learn and as you said take some feedback along the way you mentioned your wife carrie who had
a significant accident in 2010 and on the back of that you organized and completed
a nearly 5 000 kilometer bike ride from cooktown in queensland to canberra and raised
170 000 at the time for awareness and support of people with brain injury it's a great achievement
and yeah i'm happy to tell them about that and i'd like to thank them for that and i'd like to tell
them a little bit about that experience yeah uh happy to actually funnily enough this week i was
meant to be finishing that ride um i'll come back to that in a tix but but yeah so when
carrie had had the accident and uh it happened in may and and i continued coaching with the
brumbies and the second game into the next season i got the sack and at the time it was my second
sack in as a as a head coach but honestly darce shy of when it when you know the surprise of oh
hang on, looks like there's a bit of trouble here. When they sacked me, I had not an ounce
of regret around it or disappointment with it. I was disappointed with a few people, but
it was great. Now I can spend some time with my wife because again, one of those balanced things,
I was a head coach. So I was going to keep talking to, you know, doing my job and probably at the
detriment, although we still did very much managed care, she'd had a severe brain injury. So there
was a lot of work that we needed to do to rehabilitate her. But when I lost my job,
I chose to take a year off to work with Kerry. And one of the things, Kerry and I had both been
outward bound instructors. And when you work, or the more I read about people with brain injury,
there's two things they say you should try and do. One is avoid the clutter of the world. So
go into nature where we don't have the lights and the noises and the crossover conversations
and the phones and all these different things, because that allows the brain to recoup.
And the second thing they said,
is try and allow the person recovering to achieve something and ideally go back to something they
were very strong at. So the bush was really comfortable for us. Kerry was, she's always
been known as the backup queen. So she was always, again, as a wife and as a mother and
outward bound, she was always in the background trying to support things.
Yeah, it's those sliding door moments, the weird moments where I get this thing in the mail saying
there's this bicentennial national trail, the longest horse trail in the world.
Why don't you try?
And it starts in Cooktown and it finishes in Healesville. And then my silly brain says,
geez, I could do that. And Kez could join me. And we get Kerry out in the bush, in the nature.
Every day we'll leave from point A, but because I'm on a horse trail, she can't
follow me in a vehicle. So she needs to navigate and get her way to wherever we decided point B
was going to be. And that will give her a sense of purpose and achievement. And over 93 days,
we did it. And we got to Canberra and we had a brilliant response from the local community
and supporters and raised the amount of money that we did. I've always had it in the back of
my head though, I needed to finish this ride, right? So we landed back in Canberra on the 26th
of December, I think it was. I tried to ride in January the next year, but we got rained out. We
had three days of rain. I got to Tom Groggan and we couldn't cross the creek there. So a ranger
pulled us out and then I had to go to Japan and coach. And I've pretty much been away ever since.
So this week was to be the week that a mate of mine and I were going to do it, but unfortunately,
his mother needed an operation. So we pulled out, but we will complete it. We'll get down to
Hillsville, mate. I've got about 600K to go and we'll get that done just as a bucket tick. But
yes, listen, that ride itself, we call it the friendly ride. Amazing in so many ways, but the
most important thing that we did was rehabilitated my wife. And, you know, she's
incredible lady and she's very, very strong now off the back of that. And, you know, she's a
survivor of a brain injury. What a great story and appreciate you sharing it. You did mention
just briefly that, you know, that happened, which would have been a life-changing moment for you and
Kerry. And then you get sacked shortly afterwards. It's a brutal sport at times, isn't it? You didn't
have regret at that time. I mean, how have you dealt with the inevitable highs and lows of
coaching and getting sacked? Well, yeah, I said there before, mate, that was the second sacking
I had. But along the way, I've had some other tragedies, like real life tragedies where I've
lost a player in South Africa or where Kerry had had her accident and we nearly lost her.
So those things, whilst you never want those things to happen, they do happen. That's life.
And it just puts everything in perspective. So certainly my first sacking from the Waratahs in
2004, I was broken. I couldn't work out what had happened and why would this happen to me?
And I always felt like I'd worked really hard and been very honest with what I'd done. But
the head coach made a decision and I was the one that suffered from that.
The second one, when that came around, I said I'd had these other tragedies occur within my life.
And I honestly, it just paled into insignificance into anything else that had taken place. So
I think ever since the heart, the real heartache things that go on in your life,
you do get real perspective on things.
I want to win. I want to be successful. I want to win every game we go and play,
but reality is you can't. And if you can't, oh well, next. I'm not going to get too caught up on
that. Whereas previously I would have been caught up on that. Because again, I've seen the real
tragedies of what life can throw at you and losing a job is not one of them now.
And Australian rugby's had incredibly proud history and its place in the Australian sporting
landscape has over time been enormous. But as an outsider,
watching the sport that you love and you've spent your life in it, it appears to be a sport
struggling to keep up with the other codes. Why do you think it's fallen so far behind?
Yeah, it's a great question, Darson. It's one that a lot of people are trying to answer at the
moment. We definitely are falling behind on lots of fronts. I think the game at a base level is
still very strong, but certainly our national team and the top version of the game, the Super,
is nowhere near as popular as the AFL or,
NRL is at the minute. A big reason for that is it's not on free-to-air. It's very hard to access
that. I think the bigger reason is when the game went professional, the focus was on the top
1% of people. And the game is, it only survives on grassroots. The bigger you make that foundation,
the base, the better it is. I grew up in Melbourne, so a mad AFL supporter. So my team's the
bombers. Why? Because as an eight-year-old, I grew up in Melbourne, so I grew up in Melbourne,
ran out onto Waverley Park, and I touched Paul Van Der Haar, and he signed my autograph book,
and I've rusted on ever since. And people say to me still, who's your footy team,
Freddie? Bombers. Who are they? They don't play rugby. No, they don't. They're AFL, mate. But
he was my hero back in the day because I could go and touch him. And we don't have that in rugby,
sadly. Well, we lost that. We lost that. Why? Because we put a lot of games on at 7.30 in the
evening because of the Super program that was running at the time. Tickets became
very expensive. We lost the generation of kids wanting to come through and play it. And kids
can't just turn on the telly and watch their heroes. So that's a real simple, simplistic
version to ask. There's a lot of other things going on that need to be addressed. And there
are some good people in the building there trying to address those things at the moment.
I do think the women's space, which is the space I've just got myself into, I think that's a great
target for us because I think our female athletes in this country are phenomenal. And we do have a
home World Cup in 2029. I was in Europe traveling when the Tillys did what they did in 23. But the
only time I said to Kez that we need to pull up in a caravan park is when the Tillys were playing
because I just wanted to watch them. Now, I don't mind soccer, but I'm not a mad soccer
supporter. But I had to watch that because they captured the nation. And I reckon our girls could
do the same in 29 if we get the funding and the support that is needed between now and 2029 to
get them on a home World Cup. We could do that. So
I still hold hope for the game. I love my AFL. I love my league. I love every sport,
to be honest with you, mate. But I'd love to see rugby genuinely because of the good reasons,
not the bad reasons. Fill up a front page of a newspaper or the back page of a newspaper and
people go, it's a great sport. Let it continue. I love you sharing that story, isn't it? The one
moment with Paul Vanderhaar, the great Vander, and that you forget, don't you, the impact that
an athlete, just one moment can be someone rusted on for life. And
it's a powerful thing to remind everyone. We mentioned these patterns of leadership that
we're fascinated in. I'm interested that you went there yourself when I asked you about,
you feel as though the most important pillar you teach people is this idea of self-leadership.
I wanted to ask you, how do you make time for you to feel your best so that
you can lead others? What do you do on a self-leadership front?
Yeah, I'm an early riser. I've always been an early riser, but that's the time when I can have
my time. So between about 5.30 and 7.30, that's pretty much my time. Now,
my 5.30 to 6.00 always starts with making quesacapa because I are with that at least.
But after that, mate, I love my bushwalking, my mountain biking, my cycling,
heading to a gym and just being in my own little world. And if I'm walking, I've got podcasts on
or I've got my books on. I'm a big listener to audio books. If I'm cycling, I'm just in the zone
knowing that I'm helping myself get fit and stay at the level that I want to be at.
Similarly, if I'm in the gym.
That first hour, hour and a half of the day is where I fill my cup. If I don't do it,
and sometimes you can't because you're traveling or you can't do it, I get through the day. I'm
fine, but I'm nowhere near as good as I could be. And then the last thing I do is certainly when I
was in the head coaching role, I would never come home back to Cares without having completely
decompressed and solved the things that I needed to solve through the course of the day. And then
when I got home, I turned my phone off. So that's the first hour and a half of the day.
And again, in Galway, where we just came from at Connett, I always walk to work. That was part
of my routine of getting my listening in or talking to loved ones back in Australia. Coming
home, but that walk is 25 minutes. Coming home, it could be 25 minutes, but it could be two hours,
depending upon the day I'd had. But I had to have that time to decompress and maybe make phone calls
and maybe make texts and just deal with the things. So when I walk through the door, that's all done
now. I'm sorted. And I got into a really good routine and space of doing that. But I know that
I've got to fill those cups before I can be anywhere near the best version of myself or others.
What's the one piece of leadership advice that you pass on the most?
It's not a popularity contest. So you're going to have to make tough decisions and don't be afraid
of that. In fact, I never go looking for trouble. I honestly don't go looking for trouble. But
when I see it straight away, I jump on it straight away,
because here's a great chance to learn. And here's a great chance to lay down some markers.
So I hear a lot of people say, I struggle with tough conversations. I don't call them tough
conversations. I call them real conversations, because no one wants to do anything tough, right?
But I'm happy to do things that are real. So I'm happy to have a real conversation. I'm happy to
tell you exactly what I think. And if you've crossed a line on something, I'm happy to pull
you up on that. In fact, I said, I'm not going to go searching for it. But as soon as I see it,
I do not turn a blind eye to that. I jump onto that straight away.
But you've got to make sure as a leader, you're prepared to make those real decisions that may be
uncomfortable for some people. But for others, they shine a light and they give them the direction.
Yeah, I love that concept of real conversations. We're interested in vision and setting a vision
is one thing. But how could you pass on some advice on how you deliver a vision to a team?
That's something you've been doing for a long period of time.
Yeah, and it's probably something that I've always, up until recently,
I've struggled with. That word vision, what is it? But in my last contract with Connett,
so I had a three-year contract and then they offered me a two-year extension. And
Kerry and I discussed it at length. And I went back to the CEO and I said,
Willie, I'm happy to sign a two-year extension. And he said, and what's your vision, friendly?
And I went to rattle something off really quick. And he said, no, no, pause. He said,
I want you to look over your shoulder now and imagine you're driving down
away from the spot. And I said, no, no, pause. And he said, no, no, pause. And I said, no, no,
college road. The sports ground was on a road called College Road. You're driving down the
sports ground at the end of your two-year tenure and you look over your shoulder. What do you want
to see? And again, I went to race into something. He said, no, no, no, go and have a think and come
back and tell me. It was a great question. So I went away and I thought about actually,
what do I want to see? And that became the vision. The great Stephen Covey started at the end and
worked back towards that. So that's now exactly how I set my visions is I start with,
what it is that I want to see at the end of it. And then I start to share that with people.
So I can have the vision, but how they can influence that and their input into that is
really important too. So I make sure that it's a vision that, for example, one of the key part,
I want this to be a really safe place to work. I want you to be able to walk through the door
and just be you. Is everyone comfy with that? Friendly, that'd be brilliant if we could do it.
Sweet. So how are we going to do it guys? And then we start to layer on the steps that we need
to do to make sure that's going to happen. What do you need for me for that to work? What do I need
from you? What do you need from the other staff? What does it need to look like when we win? What
does it need to look like when we lose? What does it need to look like when we're 40 points down
after 20 minutes? What's it need to look like there that you're still safe? And we just have
these conversations and we build it ourselves. It's not, you know, it's friendly's vision
potentially, but it's a collective vision that we've agreed to. But how are we going to live
this out? Everyone has input into that. And over time, that's when I've learned that the best vision's
are actually, they come to reality. We love the quote, the cost of leadership
is time. And how do you juggle your workload and your demands while still promoting a culture that
fosters collaboration in the work you do? Well, I think the first thing that we talked
about before, I make sure that I'm getting what I need. So the start of every day, and quite often
when most people are asleep, I'm making sure that I'm getting my fill. Yeah, that allows me to do
it. The other thing is, and I haven't always been great at this, but
recognizing that family time is family time. I've stopped watching the news. I've not watched
the news for over 10 years now. And so I'm actually really ignorant with what's going on
in the world, but happily so. So I'm terrible to have on a trivia pursuit night or on a trivia
quiz. I just can't, I might be able to tell you a grand final team in the late eighties or early
nineties, but, and scores on footy games. I can tell you all that, but in terms of what's going
on in the world, I have no idea. And the reason I stopped is because
I want to live with my feet. I can't control any of that other stuff. I don't like some of the
stuff I hear. And that's one of the reasons I'll turn it off too. They're never telling you good
stuff, but I can't control it. And as much as the stories are sad, if I let it fill my head,
then I can't be the best version of myself for my family and for the people I'm working with.
So that's one of the big things that I've done over the last decade anyway, which
it's given me a lot more space to work with the people who are directly in front of me.
And to actually listen intently to what it is that they're saying and to try and support them
in the best manner that I can without these other little noises going on in the background or for me
wasting my time on someone's Twitter account or whatever other accounts go on, like they're time
wasters, mate. And again, as you said there before, for leaders, we don't have a lot of time.
We don't have a lot of spare time. And if I am going to have time that is not in my business,
I want it to be in the business of whoever I'm talking to. So,
that's been a real asset or a real strength that I've adopted over the last bit of time.
Talk a lot about communication in this space as a leader. Do you have a mantra
you live by when it comes to how you communicate?
I'm considered, I said it before, but also like the Stephen Covey quote of,
you know, seek to understand before being understood. So, I think we're all quick to
jump to a conclusion without really getting to know. So, I ask, I call them deep questions,
I ask a lot of deep questions. So, if I meet somebody and we start talking,
if the first five things that come out of my mouth are a question, I'm happy with the fact
that I've done that. And it's really just to learn a little bit more and to learn, you know,
where they're coming from. So, that would be certainly one thing, mate. I believe I listen
actively. I really listen to what they're saying. And the thing that gives me the indication that
I'm listening is because I can ask a deep question after that.
Because I have listened. I'm not there to tell them. You know, as part of my business thing,
as I said at the front end, I'm not here to tell you what to do. It's not my job. You know,
it's your life. You can do what you want. And with that, actually, you know, I found that to
be really, really powerful because I have a view on the way I may do it. And I always use a simple
analogy, Das, like eight plus two equals 10. That's how I would get to 10. Das, you might
get there five plus five. Brilliant. I wouldn't have done that. You might get there seven plus
one plus two. Sweet. It still gets me to 10, but I wouldn't have thought of that.
But if I just kept pushing down, go the eight plus two route, then I'm not seeing all these
other ways that we could get to that 10. As long as you get me to 10, I'm real happy as a leader.
I'm real happy. And I learn as well. So by sitting back and giving people space to explain
how they're getting there and why they've chosen that route, I pick up so much knowledge and so
many insights. It's really powerful. So I attempt to listen really deeply. I attempt to ask questions
before I answer anything. Yeah, I think by giving people space, you get to learn a lot more.
Andy, who's been the greatest leader in your life?
Probably my father. He would argue that. But just in the way that he talks to people and the way
that he conducts himself. Thankfully, he's still around. He's still with us. But he's a very
special man who he has a lot of knowledge, but he sits back and he waits until the right moment.
It is to deliver that. Sometimes you won't say a thing. You just sit in the corner and someone
says, what are you thinking there, Brian? What are you thinking there, Pop? You go, I'm thinking
this. And I've always admired that leadership style. And Andy, we're a bit obsessed with this
idea of collaboration when you bring unique and interesting people together and you've got a clear
passion and your life's been dedicated to the world of coaching elite rugby. Have you thought
of someone you'd love to collaborate with them on that passion or another passion?
Well, again, our leader,
Connect Course, it's been brilliant. Everyone in that group, I absolutely admire the way they're
doing stuff. And that's why I said I miss when our calls are longer than two weeks, you sort of
miss what's going on. I watch all the games that are going on and there'd be so many, I reckon.
There's probably no one person. Nelson Mandela, I was a huge fan of what Nelson Mandela went more
just because of his ability to stay on task and to get through real adversity.
I've read a few of his books and so I've got a real fascination for the leader that he was and
what he stood for. In the sporting world, Sir Alex Ferguson, I've watched a lot of his stuff.
Anyone that can survive as long as he did and have the success that he did had to be pretty special.
So he's probably another one that really stand out. But yeah, listen, anyone who's
at the top of their game and prepared to share, I've got a real fascination with them.
And Andy, that feels like...
I think a great moment to end on, your openness and willingness to share. It sounds like a real
cornerstone of who you are. And as you said, people are welcome in your environment, but you
want their own learning experience yourself. I certainly found chatting to you a great learning
experience. You're such a clear thinker and I'm not surprised you've got the reputation
that precedes you. Thanks for joining me. I really enjoyed it.
No, thanks, Dars. Thanks for the questions too, mate. Really good.
Thanks for listening to another episode of the Empowering Leaders Podcast. Huge thanks,
as always, to our great friends at Temper. And we encourage you to
check out our Leader Connect program. New episodes are out every Wednesday morning at 6am.