a listener production. Welcome to a special episode of Empowering Leaders. What an incredible
privilege I found it to be to sit down with inspirational and diverse leaders learning
from their life experiences. I've loved every moment of it. We at A Leader believe that success
leaves clues and that there are a number of dimensions of leadership that are consistent
with the 21st century purpose-driven leaders we've spoken to on this podcast. This is episode one,
an insight into how some of our guests view self-leadership and what it means to them.
In season 2022, 44 leaders have sat down with me, and each one has brought a unique and powerful
insight into the way leaders from across the world of business, arts, social venture, sport,
and more lead and collaborate in their world. I asked every one of them about self-leadership
and what it means to them, and I look forward to recapping some remarkable moments throughout
the year. All of these episodes tie into a great passion of mine, and I look forward to
you would have heard me talk about it throughout the year. A business co-founder with a great friend
of mine, Matt Wadowitz, called A Leader. It's a place where leaders come together to collaborate,
to learn from one another. People like the great Ange Postacoglu from Celtic,
Mikel Arteta from Arsenal, Mike Dunlap from the Milwaukee Bucks, just to name drop a few.
But please, you don't have to be an international sporting coach to join us at A Leader.
We are really passionate about supporting a world of collaboration, inspiring connections
from people from a range of different backgrounds,
love you to check out our signature A Leader Connect program, head to a leadercollective.com.
One of our collaborators is the great Andy Lee from Hamish and Andy. He was one of the earlier
episodes on the podcast, and when I asked him about self-leadership, he had a truly unique insight.
The opportunity to reflect in your own world and what you're doing. We talked about this a bit in
our group. One of the mantras that we kind of stumbled across for Radio Craig,
is that we try and create this culture really quickly.
So when you say employ 50 or 60, but you only take 10 on the trip.
Yeah, so we take 10 from Australia.
Right, okay. So 40 US citizens that you haven't met before, you employ on the ground. That's big on a
Then you might have someone in graphics department who's fantastic year one, so you're like,
oh, that's easy. You don't need anyone there. And then the year two, you're over in Britain,
you're like, oh no, we should have got more people here because you don't know whether
you're going to have the same type of skill sets as you travel.
And so what we found was it was important to reflect on every single element of the show and
also every single person that we worked with. And it sounds like it's a bit self-bashing, but
Tim and I and the guys sat down and went, what if it was our fault that this person didn't succeed
or didn't get the best out of them? It's so easy to go, that guy was crap, we need to replace them.
But what could we have done to give them a better chance to succeed?
And that's part of the self-leadership that I've really enjoyed of recent times is like,
how can we give everyone that I'm working with or I was working or working for or they're working
for me their best chance to succeed? And taking a step back and going, what am I doing to help that
rather than just expecting of people? So that's probably the main one.
Brilliant thought. And I think of the sporting environment, Andy, where it always in the past
coaches, he can't kick. He's like, I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick.
I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick. I can't kick.
Not a great mark. Always telling you what you couldn't do. And I always just think,
isn't the art of coaching, we need you to do one or two of those things better. How do I support
you to get better rather than this is a blank line through you because that skill is not something
that's... Can I just follow up? I'm fascinated in that because you're going to live and die by
those 40 people really, aren't you? Did you find you got better? You did several gap years.
How did you identify good people? I mean...
Without stereotyping, you go to the US and everyone can do everything,
and they're the best at everything. So it's actually very...
Is that in their minds or is that actuality? Well, no, it's in their mind. So it's actually
really hard to interview for. So you sit down, you talk to some lighting guy who goes, yeah,
I'm the best there is. I can light this, I can do that. I can light the Statue of Liberty from here.
And you're like, oh, this guy seems pretty good. Then the next guy gives you the same kind of
treatment. So it was actually very difficult to try and work out who to go with. And then you head
to Britain and you're talking to someone who's got amazing credentials and you ask them a question
like, oh, look, I'm not...
I'm not sure if I'd be the best at this.
So the difference in personalities was fascinating. In Thailand, I think it was 50% of the crew
didn't speak English. And same with when we were in Buenos Aires. So you had to trust the top people
that they were translating back to you. So all in South America, the director directed in Spanish.
So all the cameramen spoke Spanish and we just smiled and hoped that Tim would be tapping on
Correct. It was bilingual.
Did the humor translate? Were they getting the gags?
Yeah, they got the gags, which is really great. So, I mean, it's a long-winded answer to the
question, but what you needed to do is make sure that you were set up so clearly from the head.
And that is just the structure of what we're trying to create was so clear and so defined
in the head roles that we are taking across there. So they know what's expected of them.
And then they can...
They can then employ the people that are going to answer to those people. So our key personnel
that we hired in country, we were more rigorous with getting them on board and we chose really well.
Jeez, what a great privilege it is to spend some time with Andy Lee. And I love the way
that Andy asked himself and the Radio Karate team asked themselves, you know what, maybe
it's our fault. I think that's incredibly admirable. Always learn something from Andy.
It's not something that you see every day. He's always got an incredibly unique perspective.
Our next highlight, one of my favourite conversations from the year of podcast that
we've done, one of my favourite conversations ever, and that is Jagua Jones, inspirational
singer-songwriter who stood up to the might of Sony Music and sparked a wave of conversation
around the culture of Sony Music and the wider music industry, it has to be said.
Here is Jagua reflecting on her interpretation of self-leadership
and the story behind her song that rocked the industry.
I never thought I was like a leader, but I think
what makes a great leader is someone who listens. Often we have this, you know, picture
painted of a leadership who just takes control and is in front of the pack. But to me, leadership
is you're amongst the pack and you're listening to the stories around you so that you grow
your awareness, you come into your empathy and you make decisions based on what is best
for the collective.
What an answer. It's funny, Jay.
The amount of leaders that I've spoken to who say exactly what you said first. I never saw myself
as a leader. And I think that humility is part of what is the trademark of great leaders that
we're seeing going forward. And I love your song, Who Died and Made You King. And I just can't help
but smile when I, can I just read the opening lyrics for you, back to you? Clearly they're
yours. But to me, this sums up what you're on about in such a powerful way. I'm leading
on the voice of change. Your downfall,
isn't far away. Believing that you're here to stay. Now that you're leaving, we can finally
say, who died and made you king?
I'm the voice of change. Your downfall, that you're here to stay, now that you're leaving.
The song for me was all about, I guess the industry is built on all these little kingdoms
and, you know, you could have even like an even bigger kingdom, but there's this kind
of hierarchy of kingdoms in the industry. And on top of that, there's this kind of hierarchy
of kings, and on top of that, there's this kind of hierarchy of kings, and on top of that,
every kingdom is a self-made king that has somehow decided to give themselves so much
power and exploit so much and cause so much damage because they feel like they are entitled
or have earned the right to that power. And I guess it's all about decentralizing that
kind of hierarchical structure of the industry and, you know, trying to instill healthy relationships
and healthy environments.
Um, it just needs a lot of change. I sit here laughing when you read those lyrics back
to me, but at the time, I was, I don't know if I can swear, shitting myself. Like, I was,
I don't know what, how else I could say it, but I don't know if you can, if I can swear.
You can swear as often as you like, you can do whatever you like. It was an apt description.
I have never, ever written a song like that. That song was,
the first time I allowed myself to feel anger. For so long, I felt like anger was a bad emotion
because the people around me used anger in the wrong way. But what I didn't realize is that I
wasn't acknowledging myself or giving myself the love that I deserve by holding back the anger I
should be allowed to feel because of what has happened to me. That song was this, like, huge
step of change for me. I wrote that song.
So quickly in one day and listen back to it going like, oh my gosh, who is this person with so much
anger and sass? Like, I don't even recognize her. And then I went down this like, um, spiral of,
I'm going to have lawyers all up against me. I sampled someone as the instrumental.
I sampled someone's speech, hypocritical speech in the instrumental.
I just went on this crazy research of, am I going to get sued? How much risk is this?
What am I up against? Should I do this? Am I going to get into trouble? Is it worth it?
It was two months of me being in my head going, I don't know if I should do this.
But I'm so, so, so glad I did because it ended up coming.
It ended up coming out, um, hand in hand with the Four Corners, uh, like documentary
behind, I guess, um, a particular story in the music industry. And it became this like perfect
storm of all these elements locking into place so that, I don't know, survivors can finally find
this voice and give themselves the anger that they deserve and charge on through demanding change.
Wow. That song, Who Died and Made You King,
what an impact that had. Such a great representation of self-leadership and the
reflections that Jaguar Jones had about herself and her attitude. Incredibly inspirational and
amazing. So moving from the world of arts to the world of finance, fortunate enough to have for
the incredible Scott Pape, the barefoot investor on for an interview earlier this year, man who
sold more books than anyone in Australian history. He started his self-leadership reflection with the
idea that he wasn't a leader, but finishes with a piece of advice that shows to me why
so admired. Yeah, again, I don't really see myself as a leader. Um, one of the things I've
tried to do is every column for nearly 19 years, the, uh, I don't know why I started doing this
from the very first column. It was that my sign off is Tread Drone Path. And to me, that has been
what I've tried, kind of my North Star in that, um, I wrote a book, I did very well. Um, and then
I looked at it and thought, what am I really interested in? I'm interested in people who've,
who struggle, or I'm interested in making sure that their kids and all kids learn this stuff.
And I'm interested in my kids and spending more time with them and less time, you know,
running around promoting myself. So I guess for me, it is the whole Tread Drone Path ethos and
not buying into more money is better because I've, I've learned enough through meeting other people
who have become very, very wealthy that you can't buy back the time that you can spend,
with your family and your kids. Can you sum it up? What, what, what are the things that kids
need to know? What are the basics they need to know coming in and out of school? Well, I mean,
I think, um, in, in a primary school level, um, my view is that you need to understand it sounds
really basic, but I, you need to understand it's fun to work. It's good to work. Um, um, it's good
to spend money. No one wants a tight ass, you know, it's good to spend money, but I'm, I'm careful
about the money that I spend. And I'm, I'm kind of, I understand that I'm going to be,
manipulated by marketers to, to, to want certain things, especially on social media and influences
and stuff. Um, uh, it's good to invest. That's how you get rich, right? So your money grows while
you don't have to work. Uh, and it's good to give, you know, it's, it's the givers in this world are
the people that are the happiest. So they are re they're, they're behaviors, right? That's not,
that's not getting too technical, but if you can teach a kid that it's good to get up and work,
I know 35 year olds that haven't got that lesson.
You know, that, that, that just hasn't computed for them. So they're those basic lessons that you
can, if you can instill them in your kids, right? The thing I say is that with no one wants to raise
a spoiled brat, it just happens, right? And the way it happens is you give kids money for doing
nothing, right? And you don't have a focus on giving. Yeah. So if you, if you get kids to,
to do some sort of giving within their community or they, some of their money has to go to giving
someone other than them and working hard, I think that's important. Um, for the high school
kids, um, I created a program, uh, and, and the, the book Barefoot for Families, um, is around this
idea of the Barefoot 10, these 10 things that you can get your kids to do, you know, having your
kids, um, be able to cook a delicious, nutritious meal, right? Rather than getting Uber Eats, um,
having them apply for a job. So they actually have to go and sell themselves when they're
teenagers and they, you know, grumbly and stuff. Um, you know, having them hopefully getting a bad
You know, rides them a bit, you know, so that they actually have to work out, you know, that
whole power dynamic and relationship. Um, learning to invest, you know, or just these little learning
lessons that you can do with your kids that while they're still under your roof, they can,
they can make those mistakes, but they just have that ability because what I find is I will meet
23, 24 year olds who say when they're 16, I'm not really good with maths. I'm not a really,
not a good numbers person.
Um, and so what happens is they turn 18, they get a credit card, they get after pay debt,
and then they wind up in my office saying, see, I'm, I told you I was no good with money and I've
got the credit card balance to prove it. And so for me, what's important is trying to get kids to
learn that life skills before they graduate, because as soon as they do, they are the most
heavily marketed to generation in history. And all, as you said, all the financial institutions
have been doing that.
And so they're not, they're not going to do it.
Um, so they're not going to do it.
an A-B split tests. They know exactly how to get you to spend their money. And so I just think that
the banks have become very good at selling money. We need to get better at helping our kids resist
that. The game of rugby league, let's change tack for a moment, is a brutal one and it isn't often
seen as an environment where people can open up and be their most vulnerable self. But the way
Trent Robinson, the coach of the Sydney Roosters, legendary coach I have to say, talks about self
leadership and reflects on his methods of leading himself and then others, shows how much this 21st
century style of leadership is impacting the way we live our lives. I think there's often a, like,
am I on a path myself just because I've got a role? Am I thinking that I'm a leader because
I've been given a title? And I feel like that self-leadership is, I don't expect to be perfect,
but I have to be on a path.
To getting myself better as a leader, you know, there's a real responsibility for that.
So self-leadership, I feel, is me continuing to, you know, get better and open myself up to
more leadership and different leadership methods. And I think you need to lead yourself
well first before you can lead others.
I love the contrast. You're training athletes in one of the most brutal sports in the world.
And effectively, you know, to spill blood on the field and it happens regularly in the amazing
intensity of NRL, but at the same time, you know, the heart and the softness at the same time.
You would have found that though with, you know, the teams that you play with, because this is,
you know, when I talk about that, it seems like a, seems a bit airy-fairy, right? So it's something
that is a bit weird to go into. But...
You know, the best teams that you played in,
there was an emotional bond or connection with those players that I mentioned.
100%. I couldn't agree with you more. I just love that we're openly talking about it now as a,
as a, as a, you know, I say new generation coach, you've been doing that for a long while. The best
people in my life were exactly that. And those connections and friendships to me is the best
part of sport. When you do open yourself up and you do break down, you know, that level,
as you described it so well, isn't it? You maybe start with your,
your partner and your wife, and then you really truly, uh, drop all of, uh, the facade amongst
your friends. You end up with these lifelong friendships in sport. So I love that it's come
to where you are now, where it's talked openly about. And it seems to me the Roosters are
destinations for people wanting to be in that sort of environment from what I can see.
Well, that's, I mean, this is the part of it, right? Because it always felt like it's a bit,
um, soft to talk about it in, in a brutal sport. But the more work we've done is, you know,
that's what warrior cultures are about. Like they've understood there's a, there's a Trojan
warrior that used to talk about this. It's written around how he would spill blood in
the morning and carry his baby in the afternoon. And what's more of an ultimate warrior than that.
And so we talk about sport and we want to see the warrior on field, but you have to balance that off
the field. You know, the samurai used to talk about how they would, you know, swords, the swordsman,
that they were, and they used to defend their clans, but they also used to have the imbalance
of doing, um, poetry or painting to balance out their sides. Cause they understood that they,
that's how a warrior was. And so there's no difference in our walk through life is we've
got to balance the two. And that's, I guess that's what I'm talking about there is, is being
open to talking about both sides. True. My mind's going, I've had a great pleasure in, uh,
in this series. So,
on this podcast, talking to a range of different people and, and Steve Butoff, uh, comes to mind
who's the author of, um, you know, sold over 4 million books in Australia on raising kids. And
his book, Raising Boys was one of the bestselling books. You would, you would have heard of Steve
and he speaks about being in rooms of big theaters and he presents to, to big groups and, and, and
often to, to females. And he asked them a question around, what do you want in a man? What's the
ideal man? Which he says is an interesting question. And, you know, you start off with the,
the banter, but he says, well, I want to be a man. I want to be a man. I want to be a man. I want to be a man.
And he said, it comes down to two things really quickly. Females want a male with spine and a big
heart. And he sort of puts it in those two categories, which I think sums up a little bit
of what you're talking about, isn't it? Yeah. And that's, you know, that's our role. Like I say,
just coming back to rugby league or our sport, we, we get men walk in at 17, 18 and walk out at 35.
Um, and if we're not looking at that part of their life,
you know, if we're not trying to help walk the path of that, um, that building that man, and,
and then, you know, we're missing the point of coaching. We, we've really got to, we've got to
do that. And that's a, you know, that's, you know, Steve and his books have been really key in,
in how do you, you know, how do you develop yourself and the people around you into being
that? And that's, there's no difference. Like, that's why I say brutality is really key for the
roosters, how we play. We have to play a hard style. Um, but the method about getting that
across has, um, it has changed over the years. You know, it's been, it's getting more open.
And to be honest, the hardness is, is harder than ever. It's just, um, the, the walking the
path of a good man off the field is, is, is, is getting a bit clearer.
How impressive is Trent Robinson? Love the insight that he offers and such a new way of
Which we love to see from the world of sport to the world of business. We have loved talking to
a range of leaders and up next, Jeff Harris, the co-founder of Flight Centre, one of Australia's
most successful business people and an incredible leader whose self-leadership journey comes with a
story that I found interesting talking about his time as a board member at Hawthorne in 2008,
they were determined to win the premiership, but it took an incredible sense of self-leadership
to make it happen. I think it's more just being,
totally honest and transparent with people, um, doing the right things by people, what comes
around goes around. Um, and, and people will see through you if you're not genuine and you're,
and you're not communicating directly and honestly with them. And, and as I said,
and have their backs as well. That's the basics really. Um, it's hard for me to explain.
Jeff, you know, I find that fascinating and it has been a common response with people like you,
clearly you've had an extraordinary life of leadership. The humility,
to say, I don't see myself as a leader, but as I asked that question, I look at some of your
points on your, on your document. Point nine, leaders must radiate optimism, enthusiasm,
a can-do spirit. Point 10, leaders must raise the bar, lift expectations,
set a clear and compelling vision. So many of, uh, the things that you clearly have done throughout
your life. Can I mention at that point in a clear life example, again, this was Jeff Kennedy,
who's president and Jeff, you know, he's got, he's got people who love him, people who hate him,
but he was a crash through leader as a politician. And I remember in,
in 2008, when he was president of Hawthorne Football Club, I was next to him as vice president
on a board meeting and we were, we'd won the first nine games that year, the Hawks. Great,
Luke, it was fantastic. Um, and, uh, we had the youngest list in the comp and, uh, and conventional
wisdom was Geelong was going to win the grand final because they'd won the previous year in
2007, if you remember, and they had the oldest list, the most experienced, most successful team
around, but all the media was saying Geelong's going to win. So we won the first nine and Clarko
and Chris Fogarty, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and a footy manager at the time come in for a board meeting to report on one of our monthly
board meetings. And Jeff was there at the end of the table and they're doing the report
on nine zip. And all of a sudden, Jeff, he's fidgeting with his papers and he, he bangs
the table and he says, okay, I've heard it all. What do we need to win the premiership?
And we all sort of looked at each other and he, and he said, what resources do you need
extra? This is our year to win the flag. We might never get that opportunity. How are
we going to do it boys? What, what extra resources do you need? So he said, do you need any other
physios? Whatever you need, we will supply it. But this is our year to win the premiership.
I expect us to win it. So, and it was sort of, not exactly that language, but, but the
moral of the story was the leader raised the bar. The leader raised the bar. And us, me
and Mort was looking around, well, shit, we're not competing for the premiership. Now we
are expected to win the premiership. So what that did was the leadership group in the football
department, the players, took it upon themselves to get in Stuart Chew, who'd been with Port
Adelaide in the grand final and said, we're expected to win the premiership. We think
we can win the premiership now. We're not just competing because the favourites are
going to win. What do we need to win the premiership? And so all that sort of stuff started to happen
and we won the flag. So the moral of the story is the leader has to set the tone in terms
of where the organisation's going. And that coach was fantastic. It was really a wonderful
bit of leadership.
How did the coach respond across the board table to that? Because that's a delicate relationship
Well, it was, but I think Clarko was a fantastic coach and leader. He meant it. He was a fantastic
coach anyway as well. But sometimes there's that imbued in the fog of battle. It's hard
to look above the parapet. So I think someone clearly setting the expectations and the fact
that, yes, you are good enough, coach. Yes, we have the player list. And these boys, these
young boys might never get an opportunity. You know, we have to seize the moment. That
was a mantra, seize the moment. So I think that was, yeah, that was wonderful.
And one of the great grand final wins.
That was fantastic.
That was Geoff Harris, the inspirational co-founder of Flight Centre.
I encourage you to check out his episode. It was a masterclass for me on leadership
in life and in business. Moving from Geoff to one of the more recent episodes of the
year, the five-time Olympian and the 2010 Olympic gold medal winner, Lydia Lassler,
who chatted to me all the way from Lapland in Finland in an episode that covered sport,
business and parenting. Lydia's take on self-leadership was incredibly valuable.
I'm the leader of my life. So, you know, we have, you know, yeah,
this is a very important part of my life.
It's life because we've engineered it that way. It's not happened by chance or by, you
know, some kind of extraordinary gift. It's been a lot of grit and hard work and steadfast
kind of resilience to stick to what is important to you. So lifestyle for me is important.
Being able to work abroad and do what I want to do and give the kids these opportunities
is important for me. So that's something that we've engineered over many, you know, over
and so lead it, leading your own life, leading others. You know, I've run a couple of businesses
now for nearly 15 years from, from overseas, from my laptop, from abroad. And so I think,
I think I'm a pretty good leader. I'll have to ask everyone later on, but they don't say,
they don't seem to complain too much. And, and, you know, that whole leading by example is,
is kind of true because, you know, if I portray self-discipline and then if I give people a go and
give them independence to show me what they can do and, and to do their job without breathing
down their back is, as I do my job without anyone breathing down my back, I think it
empowers people. So I really try to give them the confidence to, to get the job done and
to, to develop their skills and to encourage them to develop their skills. So that's kind
of, you know, within, you know, my remote workplace, that's, that's how I suppose I,
I lead. I encourage them all to find, you know, a balanced lifestyle as well. You know,
it's really important if you're happy at home, you tend to be happy and productive at work.
So balance for me is important and finding, you know, and that balance through your relationships
and through your own learning and through performance and career and, and through,
you know, giving back as well, like contributing,
is, is really important. And so that's, you know, I mentor athletes as well. So I, in
a way, you know, I'm leading them or guiding, guiding them through their own journeys and,
and teaching and, and passing on and contributing in that way, passing on things that I've learned,
which I believe is a lot about myself, but also about the process of being successful.
So I really enjoy guiding,
helping athletes and giving them that kind of information or helping them flesh through their
own, their own story, you know, not just story, but process and, and what makes a difference to
their training and their, their performance on a, on a daily basis and help them find things
outside of their sport that they're interested in so that they can be a wholesome athlete,
you know, and a well-balanced athlete. So I really, yeah, I think leadership,
for me, you know, my dad was, you know, ran his own, he was, you know, an entrepreneur in his own
right. So he ran his own business. And so that was instilled from a young age for me. I never
really envisioned myself working for anybody. I've always thought I'll just be like dad,
you know, and run my own show and have school holidays, have a lifestyle. And, and in certain
respects that has definitely, you know, flowed through to me and, and our kids, you know,
are seeing it now leading, leading,
our children through life. You know, they see mum and dad working from home.
They always have, they've never gone to a nine to five job. So they've no,
they don't know anything different. So they might want to go to an office to work,
but who knows, they might want to do what we do as well. So I think you just, yeah, I think
ultimately if you can figure out how you want to live your own life and find that balance that we
all strive, you know, start with leading, leading your own life. But,
it's important to empower a team as well, even as an athlete, you know, I was still leading that
team of physio and coach and management and telling them what I wanted to do and how,
and then we all did the little jobs to get there. Now I can't replace the physio and I
can't replace the mental trainer and I can't replace the coach, but you can empower them.
What an incredible insight from a remarkable set of leaders. All those episodes are available in
the Empowering Leaders newsletter.
We encourage you to check them out and get an even better understanding of how all of those
leaders lead in their world. Next week, we'll be featuring highlights from the next question I
asked all of our guests throughout the year, how they view the idea of positively impacting others
in their environment. Empowering Leaders is produced by Ed Gooden with sound design by Matt