Hey guys, welcome back to Ebbs and Flows, where we talk about the highs and lows on and off the field.
Probably a guest that I've been looking forward to for a long, long time.
Been chasing him on Instagram for a couple of years, but Izzy Folau, bro, thanks for jumping on.
Nah, no dramas, bro. I appreciate you having me on.
Yeah, obviously, what does life look like for you right now?
Yeah, so, man, pretty busy at the moment.
I've got two young kids. I've got my son and my daughter.
So, my son's three, about to turn four, and then my little girl is two years old.
So, that's a handful already.
But, yeah, I'm still playing at the moment. I'm based out in Japan.
I've been there for three years now.
So, loving the experience. My wife and the kids enjoy it.
So, yeah, bro, just the body physically feeling pretty good.
Bro, you look good, bro. You look good, bro.
Thanks, bro. Yeah, just, man, I'm just playing as long as I can.
And, yeah, just...
Just soaking up the opportunity while it's still there.
What's it like being a dad?
Oh, man, it's the best thing, bro.
It's hard to explain until you have your own kids, but it's such a blessing to be able to...
I guess, for me, being a professional athlete for so long, it's all about yourself, you know?
The preparation that goes into that, the mindset and the build-up throughout the whole week.
And then, when you have kids, it's something special.
It's something special about, I guess, bringing a bit of perspective into your life.
And then, also, just balancing things out, you know?
It's, you know, I'm still very competitive, but when I go home to the family and to the kids,
you know, I sort of put my mind away from footy and I'll just focus on the family, you know?
So, it just brings a good balance.
And, like I said, bro, it's just the best thing watching your kids grow up.
They go through different stages and, yeah.
It's the best thing, bro.
Yeah, obviously, you are physically very gifted and your partner very gifted as well.
Is there, like, an expectation from you or outside looking in for them to be sports stars?
We get a lot of family that ask us that same question and even just, like, people in the general public.
Because it is an interesting thought, isn't it?
It's, you know, I think we're, myself and my wife, are blessed to be able to play at the elite level.
I think, from my personal point of view, and my wife is the same,
we just don't want to push that onto the kids, you know?
I think we'll put them in sports and just try them out because I like the concept of being in a team environment
and learning, you know, different principles about working hard and working together as a team.
And also just keeping fit and keeping active.
So, that's something we definitely want to implement into our kids.
But when they get to a certain age,
I don't want to ever...
I don't want to push, you know, force them in a certain way to play sports.
I think that'll naturally come if it's within them.
And, yeah, support them in, I guess, whatever they want to do as they get older.
So, you're not going to be that Islander dad on the sideline?
Bro, my old man, man, he was the hardest marker on me.
You know, like most Polynesian parents are.
They all think the NRL coach is a good dad, eh?
My old man still thinks he is, you know?
But it's just, it's, I guess...
You know, they grew up in a different environment.
Their intentions are always good, you know?
They want the best for their kids.
And so, I guess growing up in that environment,
I took what I thought was good for me as a father now.
And then I'll, you know, leave aside the things that I think didn't work for me.
And I can implement that into my own kids.
So, I'm not going to...
Yeah, like I said, I'll have a different approach.
You know, support my kids in whatever they want to do, whether they play sport or not.
But, yeah, I just...
I just want to be there for them and, you know, be a dad, you know?
And love them, I guess, you know, for whatever they choose to do.
So, what's something great that your dad taught you or lesson that you learned from your dad
that you're going to pass on to your kids?
Oh, man, I think work ethic.
Work ethic was something that my old man instilled in me at quite a very young age.
My dad used to take myself and I had three, two younger brothers, actually.
And we used to, he used to wake us up early in the morning.
Like, six in the morning before school.
He used to take us down the footy field and just make us run, bro.
Like, he didn't know what he was doing, but he just knew hard work was the foundation
and the platform to get us to where we wanted to go.
And we, all three of us, obviously, played footy at the time.
So, he did that for years, bro.
And over a period of time, I picked that up myself when I knew I wanted to play footy
and make that as a living.
And I thank him for...
I guess instilling those, that one important principle in me
because it doesn't just relate to footy.
It, I guess, you know, relates to life and whatever you want to try and achieve as well.
What have you learnt by playing in Japan?
Oh, man, I'll tell you what.
It's, in Japan, it's a whole different environment compared to super rugby
and what you experience over this side of the world.
The game's obviously still developing, but it's getting a lot better.
And, you know, that's because, you know, a lot of the international players now
are flooding that competition, which lifts the level up, you know.
So, I think, for me personally, now being a dad and being an older player,
just learning to work with guys, you know, I get a lot of satisfaction
in trying to, you know, pass on my experience to the younger Japanese guys
and just being patient with them, you know, because that's, you know,
when you go over there, you can't expect...
Bro, the expectation has to be lower, you know.
And, you know, you've still got that competitive side to you,
but you're just not playing with the same players you were over here,
you know, in super rugby.
So, you know, in terms of that, you've got to lower your expectation
and be a lot more patient with your teammates.
But just passing your knowledge and experience
and trying to elevate and bring those guys up,
you're almost a player coach, really, in that environment.
And there's something that's quite, I guess,
There's something satisfying about being in that position, you know.
Bro, something that wigged me out this year,
and you would have seen it, TJ and Jules,
past your super rugby try-scoring thing,
but the thing that fucking wigged me out
was how much tries you scored in a short period of time.
And that was like, I don't know,
because you've been away from super rugby for such a long time,
you forget how good you were.
Now, the question is, do you reckon Wallabies are playing Saffirs tomorrow?
Do you reckon you could walk back into the Wallabies and make an impact?
I think I could, yeah.
That's just my mindset, you know.
Like, I've had that mindset since I started coming in,
you know, playing at a young age
and at that professional level at 17.
So, if I got given the opportunity to go,
you know, go into that changing room
and put on the gold jersey again tomorrow,
I think I'd fit straight in.
And I'm not being arrogant or anything.
It's just the confidence or the mindset that I have about being that.
You know, and I don't like to look down on certain players.
I know the challenge of,
you know, what it's like to play at an international level.
But, yeah, you know, I'm 35 now
and, you know, been around for a bit of time now.
So, but the mindset and the hunger's still there
as if I was 17 and just coming into the NRL.
How do you balance the, like, healthy arrogance that you have
and confidence in yourself with the balance of, like,
as soon as you say something that's confident,
you always sort of go, like, I'm not trying to be arrogant
or I'm trying to be humble.
How do you balance that out?
Or have you done that over your career?
I don't think I've been good at balancing that out.
I think over time, you know, maturing with age
and going through different experiences
that I've learnt to sort of do that.
And a big part that plays within my own personal life is my faith.
So that helps me balance things out.
I don't, I guess I see everyone as equal.
But in terms of, you know, backing myself
and going out there and playing the game,
you know, I do it with confidence, you know.
I think you have to.
Like, being a professional athlete, like you know,
you know, being in that footy environment.
I wasn't you though, bro.
But it's like, you know, you just, you're at that level,
you want to approach it with the mindset of, like,
you know, I'm confident about that, you know.
And it's, I think, you know, over a certain amount of time,
that's just what I've done, you know.
And it's just, you know, like I said,
I don't want to sound arrogant or anything,
but it's a confidence that is from the inside, you know.
And sometimes you don't really have to say it outwardly.
It's just something that burns on the inside
and you don't have to do, you know,
it doesn't have to come out verbally.
Your actions just do that.
You know what, you can see it in people's walks sometimes
when they come out on the field or see it in their eyes.
It's so true, eh?
What do you think, I'll ask Quade the same question.
What do you think is going to happen to Australian rugby
over the next 10 years?
You know what, over the last couple of years,
you can see the game declining, you know.
And that's, me personally, because being in the game,
I've been in the game for so long.
I played, obviously, at the Waratahs and Wallabies
for seven years, you know,
before all that stuff happened in 2019 with me.
So that's, oh, man.
I think now you've just got a financier there
in a tough position.
You can see now guys are looking to go overseas
and pursue their career elsewhere, you know.
And it's just the way, I guess, the game goes.
It's a financier.
There's guys that...
There's guys that stay in Australia for different reasons
and there's other guys that play the game for other reasons, you know.
And unfortunately, here in Australia,
I think the jersey just doesn't have that much of an importance
to hold guys here, you know.
And there's a balance of how important the Wallabie jersey is
and also the financial opportunity of playing rugby as well, you know.
So guys now are starting to balance that out
and they're starting to, you know,
a lot of guys now are going overseas
and the game's starting to decline now,
which I don't like to see.
But I think within Australian rugby,
they've got to find solutions somehow.
And I don't know where the answer is for that.
But I think you're starting to see the talent go away.
You see a couple of guys now signing with NRL
and going across and changing codes,
which I encourage because I've gone down that route myself
and I like to see guys see themselves,
as a brand, as an athlete,
not accustom themselves to just being a footy player.
And that goes beyond just playing footy.
I love that, bro, yeah.
Because you're bigger than, you know,
when you start to see yourself like that,
I think you can open yourself up to a lot more opportunities.
At what age did you start to see yourself like that?
And where did that mindset come from?
Was it like looking at someone like Sonny, maybe Carmichael,
he sort of moved similar to you?
Benny Teo used to just bounce around, eh?
Guys like Sonny and Carmichael and that,
obviously we made the switch at a sort of similar time.
But those guys sort of, you know,
I look at guys like Sonny and that,
they've got a huge profile, you know?
And I watch a lot of the American sports
and you see guys like LeBron and that,
he's pretty much bigger than the whole Lakers organisation.
So it's like, that's just his brand, you know?
He realised how important his brand is.
And I like to think that,
guys now in Australia and this side of the world
are starting to see that and adopt that mindset, you know?
And it's not to say that you are, you know,
bigger and better than the organisation that you're tied to.
But when you see yourself outside of those four walls
of being just a footy player,
you open yourself up to other things too, you know?
Which is, I think is quite important.
Yeah, I done a speech for the Hurricanes starter this year
and I brought up heaps of data.
So like Artie's got a bigger following than the Hurricanes.
Nathan Cleary's got a bigger following than the Panthers.
And what I said was that like,
they're not always going to be bigger than the club
because the club's going to go on
and your career's going to end.
But for that period of time,
you need to maximise that, what you've got, bro.
You're like way ahead of the curve for that.
Oh man, I think it's important, exactly what you're saying.
Because particularly when you're a young kid coming into the game,
you think, you know, you've got all this time playing,
you know, your career's going to go so long.
But man, it goes like that.
I feel like I started a couple of years ago
and I'm 35 now, you know what I mean?
I think it's important to see yourself that way.
And then as it approaches towards the end of your career,
you start to put things into place
because footy doesn't last forever, you know?
So you've got to start to manoeuvre things
and look at different opportunities,
how you can try and maximise that
so that the transition going out of it
can be a lot easier than, you know,
a lot of guys that find themselves in that position.
Are you scared of transitioning out?
I wouldn't say I'm scared,
but there is a bit of a...
nervousness around that.
Fortunately, I've still got two more years
on my contract in Japan.
And if the body holds up,
I'd like to play a bit longer,
but I'm already putting things into place
where, you know, I'd like to go into,
obviously with my wife and, yeah,
I guess, you know, I want to try and get ahead
of that time before it actually comes, you know?
So the transition is a lot easier.
You guys are up in First Division now, eh?
So we played Quaid and its team and, yeah,
I was injured for most of the year,
but Quaid and its team are quite good
and they've been going quite well.
So, yeah, we were pretty lucky to get two games on them
and now we're back up in Division One.
So that'll be good to, I guess,
to compete at that level again.
Do you want to be in Division One?
Because I heard Division Two is quite good too.
It's like week on, week off, isn't it?
You get a lot of time off in between playing Division One,
Division Two, but you just don't get a lot of momentum,
You play two games on, you have three games off.
So I guess it's good from a physical point of view.
Being an older guy, you get a lot of downtime
to let the body recover.
But in terms of playing at that elite level,
yeah, I always want to play at that level, you know?
You want to be competing week in, week out.
And I've been in Division Two now for two years,
so I think I've had enough downtime, man.
I'm ready to go back up.
Do you just, like, jump over Japanese legs?
I can just picture you just, like, specking these guys, eh?
Oh, man, you know what?
Obviously, it's a big part of my game, you know, that skill set.
And I learnt that very early on when I was down in Melbourne.
You started it, bro.
Oh, bro, we used to, down in Melbourne,
we used to do a lot of work with Carlton,
which is the AFL club down there.
And we used to get the big bags over the backs
and guys used to just, you know, kick it
and we used to catch.
And I actually didn't realise I had that skill,
that skill set, until I got down there
and I started doing some work with Michael Maguire,
who was the backs coach at the time.
And, man, I had some guys I could learn off,
like Billy Slater.
You know, those guys were just teaching me, you know,
So I was under some goats, you know what I mean?
They were unreal, bro.
They were teammate, bro.
I look back and I was, I'm still in awe now
that I got to play with those guys
because I finished school in 2006
and in 2007, I've just slotted straight up.
I slotted straight into the NRL squad
and I got to play every game that year.
And it was like, man, I'm playing with my idols, bro, you know?
So it was something that was like an unbelievable experience
and honestly, pretty grateful that I got to play with those guys, you know?
There's some guys in the game right now
who are good under the high ball.
We'll go Xavier Coates.
Zach Lomax is nice.
Probably Tupo's the one.
If you had a one-on-one,
who do you reckon?
Would anyone cause you troubles?
I think they would.
Like, those guys are pretty good under the high ball, you know?
Like, you know, watching the Origin,
Zach Lomax was unbelievable, you know?
Like, he was unreal.
Respectfully, you're jumping over him now.
Zachy's my boy, bro.
Oh, look, like I said, bro,
I'll back myself every day of the week, you know?
But like I said, those guys are,
these guys are athletic now.
The game's changed, you know,
from when I come into the scene.
So, yeah, props to those guys.
Those guys are, you know, great under the high ball.
Do you reckon you can come back to the NRL?
Oh, man, you know what?
I think the game's changed totally, you know?
Like, I like to think I can,
but, you know, I think the speed of the game,
physically, I think I can, you know, play the game.
But just the speed of the game,
and I think skill-wise,
and just the way the game's played now,
it's just, yeah, it's just different now.
I'm probably more of a fan now
than, you know, wanting to come back into the game,
and I admire the guys that are playing,
and now, just because of how athletic they are
and the skill sets that they bring, you know?
It's, yeah, it's enjoyable to watch.
To be honest, I actually watch more league
than I do rugby, you know?
The product's so good at the moment, isn't it?
Oh, man, they're doing such a good job, you know?
And I think, yeah, like you said, bro,
it's a good product.
People want to watch it, you know?
And, you know, the players are, like I said,
they're athletic, and they bring,
yeah, they bring a show to the fans, you know?
And that's what everyone wants to watch.
Yeah, you're probably one of the,
like, sunny, also included,
that were Polynesian boys,
but they were, like, professional.
But you see a lot of the boys now,
and we've got a lot of Polys within the game, bro.
They're all, like, diligent, eh?
Like, all the Fords, they've got engines now,
so it's good to see for the Poly boys.
Oh, 100%, you know?
Back in the day, just come off the bench,
head out, see you later, bro.
And that's what I mean about now the game changing,
you know, because the speed of the game.
Guys have to be a lot fitter now,
so you're starting to see that build.
Body shape change, yeah.
Yeah, the body shape now are totally different now,
You've got guys playing the back row
that can slide in and play centre.
It's not, it's not, that's common now, you know?
But back then, you know, you just couldn't do that,
So, yeah, the guys are, the guys are unreal.
What did you learn from Melbourne
that carried over for the rest of your career?
Oh, man, one thing I love about the culture
and the environment down there was hard work.
Hard work was a big part of their culture.
I mean, I'll play with some, like I said earlier,
I'll play with some.
Goat's over there, bro.
And we had guys, we had guys like Cam Smith,
G.I., Billy Slater, Cooper Cronk.
Those guys were, in their own rights,
like superstars, you know what I mean?
And you'd think that there'd be some,
to some degree, there'd be a bit of ego, you know?
There was none of that.
There was none of that, bro.
And I think Craig Billamy did a good job
at driving that culture,
that everyone was on a level playing field,
regardless of whether you played 300 games
or, you know, one game, you know?
It's, it was just what you had, you know?
And being a young guy going into that,
it was, yeah, just refreshing
and something that you, you know,
I keep, I keep that now,
even, you know, at 35 at the end of the scale now.
The guys, what they showed for me
is something I can, I took and can do that
over in Japan and just, you know,
different people that I come across.
Where does Ballyac sit for you as head coaches?
Oh, man, I think I'd have to say he's,
he's probably at the top, at the top
because I learned so much from him being a young kid.
He was, he was real stern and quite tough
in the way that, you know,
he wanted his players to play at a certain level.
But then he also had a soft side to him
where he can talk to you and pull you aside
and just, you know, tell you that that wasn't personal.
That was, you know, I just want you to do well
and I want you to improve.
So that, I saw both sides of that.
And anyone, anyone that's played under Ballyac,
he's, they know he can just snap, you know,
like you see him in the box and he's, you know,
spraying guys and that's just his emotion
and just his love for the team to want to do well,
you know, and for individuals as well.
So that's, I put Ballyac up there as probably one of the best.
Do you reckon if you put yourself in a different team
that wasn't the Melbourne?
The Melbourne Storm, you'd be sitting here as Israel Folau?
Where you are right now?
That's a good question, bro.
Cause I, I'm not sure, bro.
Cause I like to, the way I approach in going in
and out of different teams, like I, I, I,
the way I think is I can play the best footy
regardless of who I have as teammates,
like whether I have the best teammates or not.
And that's from a playing point of view.
And I've always, I felt like I've always made it work
for me personally, because that's just the mindset
I've had, it's, it's, I don't know.
I just think I have to do everything on my own, you know?
And, and it's, I think it's, it's good to, to some degree
because I don't have to rely on a certain guy
or a certain player, you know, to, to,
oh, you do this or you do that.
You know, I just go out in the field
and I know I've got all my teammates around me
and we're working together, but I'm like, okay,
I can do the best that I can.
Whether you're here or the next guy comes in,
I'm still going to do my best and I,
and I can give my best, you know what I mean?
So that comes from being a hard marker on myself.
Man, I'm so hard on myself, you know,
like just in my performance, in my,
the week leading up to that, my preparation.
And so I, I, I, yeah, it doesn't,
I don't take that lightly.
What does, what does your preparation look like?
Like food-wise preparation?
Like, let's break it down.
Yeah, I, I try and, you know,
a good friend of mine from New Zealand
introduced eating organic to us a couple of times.
A couple of years ago.
I wouldn't say a couple of years ago,
probably four years ago.
And since then I've been educated around, you know,
how important it is to eat obviously organic
or whole foods or, you know,
going down that route pretty much.
And so I realised how important that was
to a recovery point of view
and a performance point of view.
And at a young age, I wasn't,
those, those things wasn't important to me,
you know what I mean?
Like I was eating Maccas and, you know,
going, you know, like most, like most,
Polynesians don't always go KFC or drive-thru, you know?
And I think at a young age you can get away with it
because your body just recovers quite quick
and then you just get on with it, you know?
But I think as I got older,
I realised how, how important those things are.
Not just for footy, but it's, it's after footy as well.
It's, it's more of a lifestyle than, than just, you know,
what it benefits for me playing the game.
So I try and stick to that.
I'd say I'm not, I'm definitely not perfect.
There's, there's days where I, I eat,
eat, obviously take away and, and get those things.
I have kids and that, so, you know,
it's whatever, it's whatever's easy, bro, you know?
Yeah, I'm playing with the kids, you know?
But really, it's just me, you know?
We're, you know, sometimes we've got to get food real quick,
so we just get whatever's easy, you know?
Like, so, but I try and stick to that.
I try and stick to a whole foods,
more organic side of things.
And yeah, I feel great.
I see the difference it makes
from a recovery and performance point of view.
I'll tell you what, after games,
it's, you feel pretty good, you know,
when you have Maccas and that.
Generally get like a double quarter pounder burger meal,
That's the one, hey, man, that's the one, hey.
You got to get the, you got to get the bun steamed, bro,
But yeah, that's, it's, like I said, bro,
my diet's not perfect.
There's always, you know, days where I have,
you know, a bit of a binge, you know, binge feed
and have, have what I feel like.
And I think it's important to have balance too, you know?
You know, that's, that's quite important.
What was the biggest transition from Melbourne to Brisbane?
Because I've knocked about with the Bronx boys, man.
They're a little bit more wild, hey?
That's, I think coming from Sydney, bro,
it's quite quick, you know, it's quite fast.
That lifestyle is quite, everyone's moving, you know?
And when you come to Brisbane,
it sort of slows you down a bit.
You know, it's not as quick as Sydney.
That lifestyle is sort of not the same.
So I think, you know, being in Brisbane
and having my own family now,
it's, it's settled me down a bit,
And I don't really get,
I don't really get to see a lot of the Bronx boys around.
I sort of just keep to myself and, and, and my family
and just keeping busy with the kids and that.
But I understand when I was part of the team
back in 2009 and 10, it can get, you know,
the Broncos is a huge brand, a huge club.
It's like, it's, it's like everyone knows that,
you know what I mean?
And particularly, you know, in Brisbane,
everyone follows rugby league, bro.
So when you're walking about,
and you're just, you know, out, out in public,
everyone, you know, wants to say hi or,
and all that sort of stuff, which is nice.
You know, you get the support and that,
but sometimes it can get overwhelming and,
and guys can either take that on quite,
quite good or it can get, it can get to them
and they, you know, sort of react in a different way,
From speaking from experience,
just looking at the Broncos team,
grand final, got knocked over.
Everyone expects for them to rock up.
They're not even going to make the finals this year.
Just from an outsider looking in,
speaking from experience,
what do you think happened to, to Brisbane?
To be honest, I actually don't watch,
I haven't watched too much games, you know,
I've watched the highlights here and there,
but I think, you know, they've got so much,
they've got a big expectation on the Broncos.
There always is every year, you know,
like you've got superstars there,
you've got Reece Walsh, you've got Payne Haas,
you know, you've got, you've got some big name players there.
So the expectation's always going to be quite high,
but I think during that, it's always after that origin snap
you know, the origin period where, you know,
you've got their stars and that sort of hit,
what I've seen this year, they've sort of hit a slump,
you know, and that's due to, you know, maybe, you know, fatigue.
You know, guys have just hit a wall, you know,
this time of the year.
It's quite a long season as well.
So I think, yeah, I think, and also as well,
other teams have gotten a lot better, you know,
everyone's talking about the Broncos,
but you've got to give credit to the opposition as well.
They might be just playing better footy, you know,
at the end of the day.
So sometimes it's not even on, on the Bronx, you know,
it's, it's on how well the other teams are picking up.
And that's due to, I guess, their, you know,
origin players coming back and lifting the morale of the team
and just different things, you know, I think you can't,
you can't just put it to one thing, you know,
I think, yeah, with the Broncos, like I said,
there's always pressure on them to, to perform and do well,
particularly with how well they did last year, you know, so.
So, yeah, man, it's, it's a hard question because I,
I actually lost it.
A lot of people when I've been in positions where teams are going bad
and like, no one can put their finger on the right thing,
but it's just accumulation of a lot of things.
And sometimes you just get seasons like that.
And it makes, um, like what Melbourne do,
what Penrith do now so impressive.
Like all the teams that have played Penrith in the finals,
the past couple of years, never make the top eight the next year.
So then you look at Melbourne, they've been doing it for like 20 years.
Um, the decision to go to AFL.
What was it like going through it?
Oh man, I tell you what, it was, I didn't want to do it to be honest.
I, I, the main reason why I went,
I went to AFL was purely just to help my family financially.
And that's one of the big pillars for being a Polynesian kid is,
you know, when someone cracks it and they're, they're the one,
you know, bringing the, you know,
the money and the resources for the family,
your decision is not based around,
just you personally.
It's, it's based around who, what can benefit the whole family, you know what I mean?
And so at the time, well, I, I went back and forth with my parents and particularly my old man.
I, I didn't want to go.
It was just something I just never wanted to do.
So I wrestled with that for a long time.
At the end of the day that the money was, was too good to refuse.
And I, and I went purely just on that one, one choice was just.
I respect that, bro.
And that's the truth, bro.
Yeah, a hundred, a hundred.
And I, I did it for, I did it at such a young age, you know,
and I didn't want to do that, but I, I, I did at the time and I did it for family reasons
and, and purely just because of that.
Do you reckon it's the right, like we're in a different time and age right now
and obviously understand the pressures that Polynesians have kids to provide
and not everyone's going to have the career that you have.
Do you feel like it's, it's the right mindset?
I know it's cultural, but do you think it's the right mindset for where we are right now?
I think it depends, you know.
One thing I did take from just that experience was that even though I was getting,
paid big money, money can't bring you happiness.
Like it doesn't matter, you know, like I was, I was rocking up to training
and hating like going there, you know, like I just wasn't enjoying it, you know.
So I think everyone that makes those sort of decisions to, to hop and change codes
and to lead different teams for certain reasons, I think it's, it's, it's up to them individually,
you know, what, what, what that dynamic looks like.
And I think for me.
A big part of that now, which I understood, at that time was, it was cultural, like you said.
But now, I think if I was to give any advice to, to young kids coming through and, and Polynesians,
you know, I think it's, it's always a good mindset to help your family out and, and to financially do that.
But you've got to do what you enjoy.
Like you, you, you're just, you're just going to last longer there because you, you're, you're loving what you do
and you turn, you want to turn up and do it, you know, so I think it just gives you more longevity.
I talk about this a lot with Polynesian boys where it's like, it's hard to talk to your dad
because when you're a kid growing up, like what your dad says goes, you know what I mean?
There's no, there's no time for like conversation and back and forth.
As you get older, I think a lot of Polynesian boys struggle with authority and that can be a head coach
where they might give you criticism and you, you don't know how to communicate back, back and forth.
And what was your experiences like that?
Like, especially having those tough conversations with your dad, but also being like the superstar,
so being able to communicate what you needed as a man and as a player to move forward
and not only life, but also in sports, like how did you navigate that space?
I think, yeah, I didn't, I didn't learn that until late in my twenties, you know,
because I was quite, I was quite, you know, respected my old man, you know,
for who he was and what he's done for our family.
And I used to bottle a lot of things up on the inside and so my thoughts and what I wanted to,
you know, communicate to my old man, I never really did it, you know,
and it wasn't until I went through those experiences, like going, going to the AFL.
And that was when I left, then I communicated to my old man that I didn't want to do that in the first place,
you know, and so we clashed a lot, but I think you had, you have to sort of go through those,
those, those moments of clashing in order for you to, to get through and for them to understand
where you're coming from, you know, and now.
Um, you know, Al, he, he, he can totally see it from, from, from my perspective now being a professional athlete,
but that just comes with time and growth, you know, through, uh, experience.
And so I see a lot of young guys now, um, you know, in, in, uh, in a, um, footy environment,
um, you know, they, they put their head down or their eyes, you don't, you don't see eye to eye with a,
with a coach, you know, and that's just because they respect them, you know,
but I think from the other end, they think that, that they're not,
they're not getting that respect, you know, but culturally that's, that's how you respect your elders,
you know, because you don't want to make eye contact, you know, and, and so we just naturally
take that into the environment that we're in, in terms of footy and that.
So I think over time, it's just more about understanding each other.
Um, and, and that, that comes in time, but yeah, I didn't, I didn't really communicate that early on,
um, until I actually went through that experience of playing the game and I ended up leaving.
Um, and I, I left on my own without telling,
my parents, it was just something that built up over time.
And I just told him, I said, I'm, I'm done.
I'm done with like wanting to do what you want to do for me.
I want to do what I want to do.
You know what I mean?
And so it got to that point, you know, so.
Did it feel good when you said it?
I felt like, I felt light, but like there was a part of me that like, I felt, um, like I didn't,
I didn't want to upset my parents, you know, I wanted to always make sure that they were happy and,
um, you know, happy with what I was doing.
But at the end of the day, you have to,
uh, grow out of that and become your own man, you know what I mean?
Which I think is quite important.
And it's huge, bro.
You have to, bro.
And that, and that, and part of that is going for those, um, those moments of, you know,
clashing and, and, and going for those tough, tough conversations.
And the reason why this scares me for Polynesian boys is because obviously, um,
coming into a new age now, there's a lot of money coming within the game, a lot of
management coming within the game.
And if you can't communicate in like boardrooms or with your management, I feel like a lot
of the Polynesian boys are.
Soon going to get fucked over because I had a Polynesian boy hit me up one time and he
goes, Hey, this is the contract that my manager has given me.
It was seven and a half the first year.
And the next year went like 10 and then 12 and a half.
And I was like, do not fucking sign that.
And he goes, he goes, nah, isn't this normal?
I was like, nah, it's not normal.
And the other part of being Polynesian is like, you don't talk about money.
You know what I mean?
So like, um, Artie was big on this where when he was resigning, he'd reach out to guys in
similar position to him.
He goes like, Oh, it's like a, I know we don't talk about money, but.
Do you mind if I ask what you're on?
Cause I'm about to negotiate my own contract and like, I don't want to get like fucked
So I think, um, if we can sort of open up those spaces for the Polynesian boys where
we can educate them through like management or even communicating with coaches, um, cause
the game's predominantly Polynesians now and we haven't been taught how to do business,
what to do with your money.
Like, I think it's going to be really important coming into the game pretty soon.
I think that's one of my passions about, um, about wanting to help Polynesians particularly
Obviously I'm one and I've come into the game quite early and I went through, um, some,
some experiences with my, um, ex agent.
Do you have an agent now?
I have an agent now, but I had one previously that, and we, we had a fallout, you know?
So, um, I think, um, through those experiences, um, one of the things that I'm, I'm passionate
about wanting to do is project that onto the younger guys coming through that are playing
league and union or whatever, you know, whatever sport they're playing, just advising them
on, um, on just educating them themselves about, um, contracts and, um, management fees
and all that sort of stuff.
And, and just giving them a heads up on, uh, what to expect.
Um, and cause I don't want, I don't want guys just signing contracts and getting done over.
You know, like that, that's not what you want, you know?
And I think now agents, um, look at that and they know Polynesians are naturally like that.
So they'll take advantage of that.
And I don't like that.
I don't, I don't like that, you know?
The nature of, of a Polynesian kid is always just to be nice and respectful and not say
anything, you know?
And, and I think, um, now is the time to sort of come out of that and get educated.
You're not, you just need to respect yourself and know, uh, what you bring to the game.
You know what I mean?
And, and, um, I think it comes back to the conversation we had earlier, bro, around seeing
yourself as a brand, you know, like you're not just the footy player, you know, you've
got to see yourself as, yeah, you're doing that right now, but this is long-term like
you're, you're building yourself a brand to, to, to, uh, go out of that and post footy,
So I think, um, yeah, I love what you're saying, bro, around that stuff.
And, and guys like Artie and that are sort of leading that way at that level.
And guys are looking up to him and like, oh man, I want to do what he's doing, you know?
Artie's the guy, yeah.
Oh bro, he's, he's unreal, you know?
Like I, I, I'm, you know, I admire what he's doing at the moment, you know?
He's, he's setting a trend in, in, um, wanting to, you know, go down that route and just,
be your, your own self and be a voice, um, that you can do what those other guys are
I think, I think, uh, Polynesians see themselves as, um, sometimes lesser than everyone else,
And that, that comes from a humble point of view, you know?
I think you can be humble, but also confident, you know?
Like you can be confident as well.
Because we're so talented at a lot of things, eh?
But like, the thing that probably balances us out is like, no, just like be humble, be
But like, we're like, jump on stage, can sing, like we can perform, yeah, play sports,
you, you, we're naturally gifted, you know what I mean?
Just can't swim, eh?
Bro, I still can't swim, bro.
You just can't do it, you know?
Like, um, but yeah, bro, it's like, yeah, Polynesians are so, you know, like, uh, naturally
gifted, you know?
So, I think, um, that, that's a learning thing to slowly come out of your shell and, um, just
be confident about who you are and just be like, no, well, hang on.
Like, I'm not going to let this person tell me what, what I'm worth or what I can and
can't do, you know what I mean?
And that's just coming with education, like you said.
The conversations I was having with Artie is like, when you get to a certain point as
a football player and I'm, you probably got to 19, 20 years old where like your value
as a player was already, already set.
And like what I was saying to Artie was like, he goes like, you might be worth say 800K,
but like you, that's your market value.
But anything above that, if your manager can negotiate that, he can get a clip of that.
He shouldn't be able to take the 800K cause like your parents have got you there.
Your coaches have got you there.
Your manager's coming through just to sweep up the, you know what I mean?
Just have the conversation.
So bro, there's heaps of different ways to do it.
Another one I was saying to the other boys was, is like, bro, get a contract lawyer and
get a mentor or someone that you trust that's not a part of your family and then pay them
So that might be $500 an hour.
You negotiate the contract deal.
That might be six hours worth of work.
You pay that guy 3000.
You're not giving him 7% of a million dollar contract over three years, which is going
Because, because a lot of us sign these long-term contracts and lock ourselves in with, um, um,
agents and that, but outside of like getting you a contract with the actual team that some,
some of them don't do anything else, you know, that's it.
And so you're paying them that percentage for just over that period of time.
And I think, yeah, like you said, bro, you can just use, use someone you can trust.
You can pay them a one-off fee where you're not tied in, locked in for a long-term contract,
you know what I mean?
And you still get what you're worth, you know what I mean?
Um, so someone gives you a bunch of money now, you don't have to say what you exactly do
with it, but how would you like split it across certain things?
Like, are you saving a certain amount?
Are you invested in it straight away?
Uh, some young Polynesian boys that are coming into a lot of money right now, what would
your advice to them be?
And obviously this is just like, like it's not.
Yeah, it's not financial advice.
So don't, don't take this for my word, but I'm not a, I'm not a professional or anything
like that, but I think just from my point of view, um, over the years in that sense
playing, I was introduced to, uh, property real estate quite early.
So I, all the money that I was getting at the time.
Um, I sort of saved the portion of that and then the rest of that was going into investing
And I didn't, to be honest, I didn't really know too much about it, um, early on and I
didn't really care about it.
Um, but I knew, I think I was, I was blessed that my old man or my parents pretty much,
um, you know, put me on the front foot to sort of invest that.
Then I think in longterm, you know, I think at a young age I was quite immature, 17, I
just didn't, didn't know much about money.
And, you know, I just, you come out of school and you get this contract and you're like,
oh, I just want to spend it.
You know what I mean?
That's just how it is for a young kid, you know, but so, um, I think investing is, is,
is the right thing, whatever, whether that's, um, property or whatever you're interested
So that's something that I think, um, guys should be looking to do, um, with their money
because your career is not, you know, it doesn't, doesn't go for long, you know, and, and you're,
you're lucky to play, you know, five to 10 years or whatever, you know, um, if you pick
up an injury, a serious one.
That, that could be it, you know?
So I think it's, you gotta be wise with, with your money, um, and one of the things I, I
think with a Polynesian, with families and that, is that the parents and all the siblings
that like to spend that money as well, you know, and, and I think an advice for, uh,
parents, uh, just educating them around how they should see it as well is you can, you
can get a piece of the pie long-term if you just invest.
That early and let the money grow for you, you know, rather than just like, you know,
the money's just come in and you're like, oh yeah, let's all just use it right now, you
know, and spend it all up.
And at the end of that career, like he's got nothing to show for, and he can't do anything
for the family, you know, he can't help them out.
So I think, uh, you just, you gotta make sacrifices right now in order for you to benefit long-term.
That's a good way to put it, bro.
How you said, um, even if you are giving money to the family, it's like giving money to the
family to put to something long-term.
Like you said, a lot of them just get out and buy a car or, you know,
We send money over to the, to the island and that's fine, you know, I think you can do
that and you should do that, but there, there should be a, uh, a part of that as well that
should be going into investing that, you know, like to, you want to grow that money, you
know, you want to maximize the, the, the salary that you're getting for the time being, you
know, cause you're not going to get that, you don't get paid that, that amount for the
rest of your life, you know, but you can do that if you make, if you invest it right.
How close of family do you have to be before you send money over?
You know what, when I'm, when I, when I cracked it, bro, everyone was like, messaged me, we're
related to you and this and that, you know, but it's just, it's the island way, bro.
That's just how it is, you know, but you just, uh, yeah, I think guys now a bit more, um,
smart around what they're doing now.
Um, and you, you could learn from a lot of ex players that have gone through that.
Um, you don't have to go for it yourself, you know.
Do you reckon you're better at league or rugby?
Good question, bro.
Uh, I, I think, I don't know, I think I'm better at rugby than league.
You were, you were, if you were the man, if you were the man at league, don't get me wrong,
I'm special in rugby, bro.
I think I'm, I'm, I think I'm better at rugby than, than league, um, and I, I enjoy playing
rugby a lot more than league.
I'll tell you why, because being an outside back in it, um, when you're playing league,
if I'm playing on the right edge, I just, I'm just there the whole 80 minutes, you know
when you play rugby as an outside back, you have the freedom to roam around and go and
play on both sides of the field.
So that's something I really enjoy and, um, you can pretty much pop yourself up anywhere
you'd like, you know, so, and, and I guess, you know, as, as a fullback in league, that's
what they do obviously in that game.
Any outside back can do that in rugby, like whether you're winger, centre, fullback, doesn't
You know, you can just pop up wherever you want, you know, so that's something I really
There's so much like tactics that go into the game as well.
Um, there's a lot of, you know, field position's big and so you gotta, there's a lot more that
goes into it, you know, whereas I think league is a lot more of a basic game, but physically
more demanding to play the game.
I think it transfers, like, I think the reason why it's done so well, I think it transfers
social media well.
So if you look at our phone, like we start 10 metres back, there's contact, you know,
and um, I think that the art of rugby's got lost, like, cause people see a scrum where,
a scrum or a line out and they go, oh, that's like, a scrum's boring cause it's collapsed
But if they understand like the dynamics, and it wasn't until Angus Bell broke it down
on the podcast for me where, where I understood like, oh fuck, scrums are actually important.
You talk about scrums and like, I've played the game for a long time and I still don't
really know the technical side of scrums, but I realise how important set pieces, which
is what they talk about with the scrum and line out, you know, a lot of the attack is
launched off the back of that.
Um, or you don't, you get dominated in that area, you're sort of playing on the back foot,
So that's, that's how important it is.
Um, and so, um, I think people that understand, really understand the crux of the game, they
know how important, um, you know, the scrums and the line outs is, whereas if you're more
of a fan of it and you don't really understand, uh, the, the ins and outs of, of what the
game is, you, you do think it's boring, you know?
Cause you, you know, there's a lot, a lot of stoppages, there's scrums that, you know,
collapse and they, you know, go on for three minutes or whatever, you know?
You're just there watching the scrum, you know?
I sweat if you're a backhand.
For me it's all good, you know?
I sweat for the back.
You just, you know, you get a, a, a breather, you know?
You're just standing out there.
But, but yeah, I, I really enjoy playing the game.
It's, um, I think it's a, it's a great game and it's, it's a global game too, you know?
So it just brings a lot of opportunity, bro.
Bro, that's the big thing.
So like international season right now, like the games are so much more exciting and I,
I know, like I'm still a leagy and I, I, the best part about international rugby league
at the moment is the Polynesian side's coming through and obviously you're a proud Tongan
dude and you would've been pumped to see that.
But realistically it's the NRL just in different players in different uniforms.
You know what I mean?
They're representing it.
And, but you look at international rugby, you watch the All Blacks and they've just
played England and the fucking Marcus Smith's fucking carving, he was like, who's this dude?
He's carving us up.
And then Bodine jumps on off the bench and plays, plays position for like 20 minutes
It's just so much more exciting.
And like you said, rugby's played in a different style, you know, cause every international
team, they play a certain style, you know, so you're, you're going against, you know,
you watch the South African team, they, they, they build everything around their physicality
cause they got so many big players.
Sometimes they might, you know, just to people, they might play a boring style, but it works
You know, the kicking game and, you know, their back to the fence and, and they got
some outstanding plays in that, but, but you just, yeah, like you said, bro, every team
brings a certain.
Style to the game and it's exciting to watch from a, from a fan's point of view.
And like you said, bro, as soon as someone breaks it down, even you just breaking down
like how the Sapphires play where like they'll bomb landed on them and just like bully them
And then get a, get a, like a penalty and then kick out set piece.
And it's like, and like sometimes from an outside looking in, it does look a little
bit boring, but once you understand the dynamics of a game, it's fucking so much more interesting.
Oh, exactly, bro.
And I think me personally as an outside back, you know, I, I don't really, I don't really,
I don't really, I don't really, I don't really, I don't really, I don't really, I don't really
necessarily enjoy playing that, that style of, of game, you know, cause we don't get
chasing them out.
We don't see much boy, you know, you're just back in the defense and all that sort of stuff.
But I guess from a team point of view, it's, it works, you know, you want to get results
and you want, you want to get the wind, so you do whatever it takes, but, um, yeah, there's,
there's other teams out there that, that play a good balance of back in the defense and
then they just like to throw the ball around, you know, they're the best to watch, you know,
like they, they just, to me, they play almost like you watch their style.
It's almost like a league style, you know, with their players, you know, running out
the back, out the back, out the back, you know, and so they're one of the teams I enjoy
Um, and then you've got England, obviously the All Blacks, you know, they're, they're
always consistently up there with the way they play and something, something I like
watching from afar, you know?
I think the All Blacks are cool cause like, as soon as I get that counter, I just, the
ball's on the other side of the field and Rico's just cruising down the side somewhere.
Well, they've got the players to do it, you know what I mean?
So that, you know, why, why not play that style?
I think they'll be going up against Richie Moe this, I'm, I'm interviewing him next week
Yeah, he's, he's going to be here.
Oh bro, he's, that's unreal, man.
He's, he's, he's a guy that, man, like for a, I admire what he's done, you know, for
the All Blacks and, and, um, you know, being a Polynesian guy as well, it's like, man,
you always just want to see these guys doing well, you know, whatever, whatever team they're
playing for, I don't care, or whatever field they're in, whether they're playing footy
or not, it's, it's always nice to see, um, you know, Brown guys being successful, you
And like yourself.
Yeah, I interviewed Aaron Smith maybe a year and a half ago, a year ago, and, um, like
the way he breaks down football is really interesting, and he had about a five or ten
minute segment and it was fucking basically based on you, bro, and I found it so interesting
and he was saying like, um, normally the All Blacks tackle at like a 94%, when they played
you, you missed 12 tackles and they go down to 83, and they, they'll, he goes, their whole
video session was planned about how do we not get the ball in your hands, what's it
like hearing something like that?
Oh bro, someone of his calibre, like I, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I
don't know what he's done in the game and what he's done for the, for the All Black jersey,
like, I, I actually heard that, I heard that interview and I watched it and I was like,
man, that's, I, I'm like so, I feel privileged, you know, to be able to be talked about like
that from, uh, a guy that I've played against and, um, a guy who is regarded as, as one
of the, one of the best players they ever put on the Black jersey, you know what I mean?
So, to, to hear that and to get a bit of an insight, uh, into how they, uh, approach,
Um, the game when they played the Wallabies, particularly, um, me as an individual, I've
always wanted to know what it's like being in that environment, you know, so it was,
it was quite interesting to, um, actually hear it from, firsthand from him, uh, like
I said, but I, I always, my mindset going into any sort of game, um, is I back myself
and I don't, I like the challenge, the bigger the challenge, like bring it on, you know,
and that's, that's the way I approach it and so, yeah, I mean, it's, um, to hear it from
him, it's actually quite humbling.
Cause I'm like, man, that's, uh, someone I actually admire and what he's done in the
game and to, to hear what he, you know, those comments is, is actually, um, yeah, just good
insight into, to how they approach, um, it was, it was like so technical and like the
data behind it was, I was like, bro, this is crazy.
He was even dropping like numbers and that, like you said, like percentages and, you know,
from a defensive point of view, it dropped to 80 something, you know, he goes, we would
work to this corner and would box kick, but then like someone who's playing fullback will
give your heads up where you are and then they'll go, fuck it, let's kick it to quaint.
Quaint is getting, getting fucking rolled.
It's, it's, uh, bro, and, and I think, um, there's a guy, Mick Byrne, he used to, he
was a coach with the, with the All Blacks and he come across to the Wallabies, uh, I
can't remember what year it was, and he started coaching us and he, he did say to me at the
time, he goes, bro, we used to, we would never want to kick it in the air to you, um, we'd
always try and find grass to you, so for you to come forward at the ball, yeah, just make
it harder for you.
And I thought, oh yeah, that's, you know, I, I never, I never, I never, I never, I, I
never, I never actually saw it that way, you know, and I, I, you know, it wasn't until
he said it, I was like, yeah, true, I, I wanna, I wanna, you know, if I'm trying to, uh, limit
his, his time and space, then put it on the ground, you know, and, and, and make him come
forward at the ball rather than go into his strengths, you know, so that's, that's something
that, yeah, I, like I said, bro, hearing Aaron Smith say that, I was like, wow, just blown
When they kick it across the ground, do you try and pick it up one-hander?
Just to, just to scare him off, eh?
Yeah, just, I, I try to, bro, but, uh, it's, uh, sometimes I've, it never worked, you know,
but it's, uh, yeah, that, man, I, I, I always enjoyed playing against the All Blacks, it
was something I always looked up, uh, looked forward to, you know, and, um, you know, growing
up, actually, I, I didn't really follow rugby that much, but I actually went for the All
Blacks growing up.
I should have come play for us, bro, it would have been alright.
Oh, man, it's, it's.
We would have, we would have found a spot for you.
I think, I think, like, just admiring Jonah, Jonah Longwood, like.
Growing up, he was, like, every Tongan kid's idol, you know what I mean?
Not even just Tongan kid, but everyone's idol, you know, I think, for me, personally, he
put rugby on the map, like, he was the guy that was just, like.
He was the OG personal brand, eh?
He was the OG, bro.
You know, like, he, he was doing, I was, I was fortunate enough to, to get to know him
personally, uh, in his later years before he passed, and he, man, he, he did some crazy
things, bro, doing ads with, like, um, he did a couple of ads in McDonald's ads, and
Like, he just, he just put rugby on the map, so he was a guy that, um, that I looked up
to, bro, and that's why, yeah, growing up, I supported, supported the All Blacks.
Bro, what, what sort of, um, like, I listen to guys like Mike Tyson talk, and they always,
like, drop knowledge on, what was, what's some of the stuff that he said to you that
really stuck out?
Oh, man, I think, like, he, he, he was, like, he, he was big on seeing yourself as a brand,
and he was one of the guys that I picked that up off, you know, and, um, I think you can
see it in the way that he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he played, um, he, he just said, man, I, I'm, he used to say he was bigger than the
actual All Black brand, you know, and he, he, he said.
To be fair, he probably was, eh?
To be fair, he was, you know, and, and the way that he played the game, man, he was,
like, doing that, you know, like, can you imagine, can you imagine if he was operating
at 100%, like, without being sick, you know, with carrying that kidney issue, you know,
so I think, man, I, I would have loved to see him playing at 100%, he would have been,
like, devastating, you know, so, uh, yeah, that, that's one thing, to me, you know, he
was, see yourself bigger than, than the actual brand, like, than, than the organisation you're
Do you reckon you could jump over him?
Well, I imagine just speaking to him, that just sounded like.
I think I could, but he, he, man, he was quite quick, he had, he was.
Oh, he was rapid, bro, rapid.
I think he ran 100 in, like, 10-something.
He could move, bro, for a big man, you know what I mean?
I always think of those tries in, like, 95.
Or 98, 99 against England, just like.
Yeah, bro, just running over guys like nothing, you know, so, I think I could jump over him,
but he's definitely got me in speed, and strength, and size, and everything.
Yeah, getting bumped off from Jonah would be a privilege, wouldn't it?
Oh, bro, I'd love that.
Um, so, obviously, when you come from AFL, you cruise to rugby, you could obviously walk
back into most NRL sides, salary cap dependent, what made you want to go to rugby?
Bro, back in, back in 2011, when I decided to leave AFL, I actually didn't want to go
back, I didn't even want to go to rugby.
I, um, I, I sort of had that fallout with my agent at the time, and, um, I, I rang up,
um, so, I did the whole move with the AFL, that went out, um, pretty good, and, and the,
the, the club was really good, you know, I told them I, I wasn't enjoying it, um, they
weren't going to keep me on that much money, just, you know, just for the sake of it, you
know, signing a, a long-term contract, so, the club was quite good in that, they, they
helped me transition out quite well.
But in the background, I had a bit of a fallout with my agent, and so, I had to pick up the
phone, and at the time, I called, um, Sticky, he was the coach at Parra, and I called him
and I was like, oh man, like, I want to come back to league, you know, I, like, what do
And I, I, because I had that fallout, I essentially was negotiating my own contract, so I was
going back and forth with, um, with, uh, Sticky, and this time of the, it was, I think it was
November, December, that time of the year.
Was Hainsey still there?
I think he might have been, yeah, yeah, he might have been, yeah.
Oh, I'm merging that, bro.
Oh, bro, and, and I, yeah, so that, that was happening in the background, and, um, because
I left it so late, like, late, uh, in the year, I think most guys, most, most rosters
are, are quite full, you know, and so, salary cap-wise, there wasn't that much money, um,
to sort of play with, you know, so I, I, yeah, I was, I was talking with Sticky at the time
Could you, could you have gone for less, or would your value from the NRL be too,
like, say if you picked up, say, $250,000, $300,000 at the time, but your actual value
is worth $750,000, NRL would have blocked that straight away, or...?
So, so, I, I was happy to go, so, I was happy to sign, the first year was obviously at a
lower amount, and they'll backdate that in the, in the, um, later years, and I was happy
to do that, but the NRL blocked it, they just blocked it, bro, and I was like, um, I was
quite upset at the time, bro, and I was like, man, what are they doing, you know, like,
um, anyways, went through all that whole process of, um, trying to come across, you know, trying
to come across, and I obviously didn't end up doing it, uh, and I was gutted, and that's
why the route changed for me, I ended up going to rugby, which I never, I played a couple
of games in high school, and that was it, but I never, never grew up playing the game,
and so I ended up signing a one-year deal with, uh, with the Waratahs, um, in, uh, 2013,
and went across, I still had the mindset of, like, I'll just play out this year and then
go back to league, you know, because that, that's what I grew up playing, but, like,
I would say, like, I would say, like, I would say, like, I would say, like, I would say,
about three, four months into the transition, I fell in love with the game, loved it, bro,
loved it, didn't have any, what was the, what was the moment, what was the moment that you're
like, fuck, this is it, I think, um, I think just the, like I said, bro, the freedom of,
of just playing a game, uh, learning a new game, and then, um, having the freedom to
sort of play and just go around anywhere on the field, you know, because, uh, at the time,
Michael Cheka was a coach, and he, he just wanted to make it basic for me, he goes, well,
I just want you to go out there.
Just play, just go wherever you, you want, and just try and get the ball, uh, the ball
in your hands, you know, and so, I didn't have any expectation, I'd had, I had none
at all, um, and I played my first couple of games, and I was like, man, this is unreal,
bro, I love this, you know, like, I just, I just love what the game brought, like, from
an attacking point of view, and I was like, I thought, hang on, this, this is probably
something I, I, I want to do long term, you know, and then I started to see how, um, global
the game was, and what that brought, you know, and in that year, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
I actually joined the, the Waratahs, was the British and Irish Lions, uh, tour, and
that was like, I don't know nothing about it, you know, I was just like, oh, yeah, I'm
playing the game, and then when I knew I, I, I enjoyed it, and I wanted to do that,
that's when I started to, uh, set goals for myself, and like, okay, I want to play for
the Wallabies, I want to do this, and, you know, I want to go and, and, um, you know,
play against the Lions, and, and do all that sort of stuff, so that, that was sort of,
I would say, four months into the, the transition.
What was the hardest part about transitioning, because, like, like, we talked about this
before, I don't, people realize how technical rugby is, and like, you're a guy who played
rugby league, and like, you see someone, you match up with a center, you're like, oh, this
is a one-on-one battle, I can take you on, I can do whatever I want, but eventually I
want to hit the ground, and I want a whole position of the ball, and I want to play it,
where you can't, like, if you get it one-on-one, you're on the outside of someone, did you
still have the same mindset, where like, I want to take you on and try and beat you,
but then you're like, oh, fuck, where's the help coming from, like, you know what I mean?
Like, what was the big change?
What was the big change for you?
So, the, probably the biggest change for me was the, um, understanding the ruck, you know,
and, and when someone was to get tackled in it, I had, if I was the closest one there,
I had to go clean out, you know, which was something that was so foreign to me, and so
that, that was probably the biggest one, and then also, uh, what you mentioned earlier,
from an attacking point of view, I had the mindset of, whoever's in front of me, I'll
take you on, you know what I mean, so I'll, I'll try and beat you, but then understanding
where you were on the field, so, um, you know, you, you needed to support the other players,
otherwise you'd turn the ball over, so that was something I picked up quite early, because
my mindset was to attack from anywhere on the field, you know, and so, I was doing that
early on from inside the 22, you know, and so, you know, from a, you know, attacking
point of view, that's, can be quite dangerous, because, um, you know, when you're doing a,
when the opposition are kicking down, and you're, um, you know, it's just you and your
winger, but your winger's quite far, but I, I was, my mindset was, bro, I want to counter
attack, I want to attack everything, you know, and so, I was running everything, and sometimes,
um, you know, I'd get tackled, like, inside the 22, and the support was, like, just coming,
and I'd turn the ball over, you know, and I'm like, oh, I've got to pick and choose.
Oh, that's why they kick.
Yeah, that's, that's why they kick, you know, it's all about field position, and, and just
knowing when to attack, you know, so I think, um, that was probably one of the hardest things
to, that I had to pick up, um, but I enjoy that, that side of the game.
Um, do you reckon it would have been harder if you went from league straight to union,
because obviously you spend time in AFL, which is a, like, foot-dominant sport, rugby's,
70-30, like, kicking's very important.
Do you reckon that transition helped you a bit more, transitioning over?
Yeah, definitely.
I, I think, because AFL was a totally different game, you know, when I joined rugby, it was
like, um, it was like, yeah, oh, bro, I was, man, I got down to 95 kilos, bro, and when
I was playing league, I was about 109.
At, when I was at, um, um, the Brisbane, yeah, bro, and that's a lot of, that's a lot of
weight for my height, you know what I mean, so, um, yeah, when I went to rugby, I was
like, I, it was like, I felt like I was at home, because I, it was, it was like going
back to NRL, because, because I've just come out of something that's totally foreign, it
was, I think it made the transition a lot easier, you know, so, um, I'm, I'm actually
glad I, I, I went through the experience of playing AFL, because, like, there was a lot
of things I learnt, um, both, uh, on the field, and then also off the field as well, that
was, that was something I, you can't buy.
What did you learn more, what, what's the difference between rugby league and AFL with
the boys off the field?
Um, rugby league and AFL, I, I'd say, I, I find the league boys a lot more looser,
you know, but a lot more looser, you know what I mean, and then, and, and I would say
the same thing even with rugby, bro, yeah, I find a lot of the rugby guys a lot more
tamed and, um, presented, well presented, you know, in the way, in the way that, uh,
they carry themselves and communicate and that, and I, I don't know what it's from,
but I, I think maybe going to private schools and, and, um, and that, it probably has an
impact, you know, it has a, it definitely, it definitely has an impact.
It has an influence on that, but, um, I think that those are the two major differences
It's funny, it's funny you say that, because, um, we were down in, uh, Melbourne and we're
knocking about with AFL boys, bro, and like you said, bro, we're at races and, like, bro
suits, I, I know, I know it's a race, but, like, when they're out, bro, they present
themselves really well, shake hands, communicate with you, and I didn't realise these were
some of the biggest AFL guys in the game, but do you know what it is, in my opinion,
we, in rugby league, we put the larrikin on the pedestal, like, you look at all our content,
Bo Ryan, like, Joey Johns, he's the greatest, but we celebrated because he was a party guy,
you know what I mean?
Like, um, we put those guys on the pedestal, and then someone like, say, Corey, for example,
like, he would have been the leader of a locker room, because he was, like, the loose guy
that could party, that was fun, but he could back it up, too, so we're like, fuck, he's
the man, because he, he can drink for two days and come train, you know what I mean?
So, that's a big one.
Oh, totally right, bro, and I think, um, a lot of people see the game as, like, a, it's
a blue-collar game, and then you look at, like, um, rugby league, and then you look
at rugby, it's, it's like the, you know, it's the private school boards, you know,
that are playing the game.
I think it's, it's important, like you said, bro, like, guys need, um, you know, they've
got to see themselves, like I said earlier, as, as, you know, a brand, you know, so you've
got to carry yourself, you know, both on and off the field professionally, you know?
I think it just, it's just, it says a lot about you as an individual, you know?
But, um, but yeah, I think that culture plays a big part in that, um, but yeah, like you
said, bro, it's just naturally, I think that's the way league has always been, you know?
It's fun, though.
I love it, you know, because it's, because I've talked to a lot of guys that actually
play rugby now, and they, they watch all the league shows, you know, because they, they
find it funny, you know, as they find the rugby stuff quite straightforward, you know,
and prim and proper, and I think that's the, the upside of, of, um, of league, you know,
and what it brings.
Um, I always found it funny when our union boys used to call someone who was loose a
Right, and I think a lot of the guys still look at that, um, league guys that way, you
It's just, um, yeah.
They're, they're always joking around, going, oh, man, what's the next headline coming out,
Because in the off-season, there's always something, you know?
There's always something.
Um, bro, what's harder, a blader or, or origin?
Oh, man, I, I would say origin, bro.
By, like, like a lot of guys ask me what's the most, um, what's the hardest arena I've
Like, it's just, something's, there's something about origin, you know, the, the whole build-up,
um, and just playing at that level.
Guys that, that I've played with and guys I've played against, um, like, superstars at
the NRL level, but then they go into the origin arena, and some of them don't play as well,
And I think a lot.
Why is that, bro?
I don't know, bro.
I think maybe, maybe the pressure of, of how big the occasion is, um, sometimes gets the
Um, I just, I don't know.
I can't put it to one thing, you know?
I, I asked Aaron Smith about this, bro.
And I go, like, I asked about Dan Carter.
And the, the exam.
The example he gave was, like, um, he goes, bigger the moment, the slower everything went
Where everyone else, like, it just goes quicker and quicker.
But then I asked Dan Carter the same thing.
He goes, nah, I was, like, shitting myself.
I was like, oh, what the fuck?
So it's crazy, eh?
Yeah, it's crazy, bro.
And I, I think, like, I don't know, bro.
Like, and I think it's mindset, too, you know, going into the game.
What was your mindset?
Same mindset when you rocked up in origin?
Like, I'm, I'm just like, bro, I'm, I'm here because I'm good enough to, to, to be here,
18, because that's, that's when I played the game.
Like, origin was when I was 18.
I was like, bro, I did, I'm here, you know, I'm here now, you know, like, I'm, I can match
it with these guys here, too, you know?
So it's, um, I think it's, it's how you look at the game and how you approach it.
Is that a try when you spec him, get up, is that your favourite try ever?
I would say, yeah, that, that's by far my favourite try, yeah.
It was, I, I still, I still can't believe I did it, you know?
Like, I, I, I watched back on that highlight and I'm like, man, that, that was, yeah, was
that me, you know what I mean?
But the kick, like, the kick was.
It was a pin point, too, you know what I mean?
And I think, yeah, like, it was a skill set I learnt, and I, I'm.
I feel like your range of where you can catch a ball, though, like, pin points, like, vary,
like, you know what I mean?
Oh, man, I, you know what, I think.
You just, like, because I used to kick for Manu Votivai and he used to go, just put it
around here and, like, I'll go get it.
Yeah, and that's the same, you know, for me, you know, when I used to communicate with
Cooper Cronk or Darren Lockyer, those guys, I'm just like, put it in this area, just put
Just put it in Suncorp?
Just, just, just put it in there, you know, and I'll, and I'll back myself to get up there
and compete, you know, and, and I think, you know, like, having that skill set and, and
there's a difference between catching on your chest and catching, you know, off your chest,
you know, there's, that's a major difference, bro, you know what I mean?
So, you know, that's, that's something that I, you know, you see a lot of the wingers
now doing naturally, you know, but back then there was something I, I learnt off of being
in Melbourne and, and learning off the AFL guys we used to train with.
What is, what is the ticky for that?
Do you start wide, come in, like, how would you break it down?
Oh, man, I think, me personally, my angle coming into the, to the ball is, it's never
It's always sort of a little slight arc coming into it.
Like a high jumper.
Yeah, like a high jumper almost, you know, and it's, it's always watching the, the, the
flight of the ball in the air.
You don't want to get there too early because you'll get under the ball and you don't want
to get there too late because you'll get, obviously, you won't get a proper jump on
So, I think a lot of guys that play in that position.
Um, you, you, you tend to think about where the defender is or, or you look down, you
know, but I think the key thing is, is always watching the ball.
So, you just track it the whole way.
You just track the whole way, bro.
Like, don't worry about who's in front of you.
You just track the ball the whole way and get a, get a nice angle, um, coming into the
It's all about timing, bro.
And then just, you know, projecting whatever foot you jump off and just, yeah, just, just
being in a strong, having a strong body position because when you get up in the air, um, obviously
you're only, you're going to get that physical contact.
Do you go chasing that contact or do you just, just accept that what it was?
Nah, I just, I just, I just watch the ball the whole time.
So, I, I, I think naturally I, I, I jump off my left foot and I have my right leg up as,
as protection, but it also balances me out when I get a bit of contact in the air that
I come down landing the way I want to, you know, or keeps me up there to, to, to be in
a strong position to catch the ball.
Did, um, Billy Slater teach you to kick him in the face?
Because he, he was, he was like, his, like, defense mechanism when he was in the air,
Man, he, he wasn't big at all, but he, he had a, he had a good jump on him.
He had a good spring, spring on him.
I think naturally it's just a, you know, it's just what you do to, to try and protect you
from, uh, getting that contact in the air.
But yeah, I mean, I, yeah.
It's like, um, if you cross the street and a car was going to hit you, naturally you'd
Yeah, you're just like that, you know?
So, I think that, that was his natural, um, instinct in trying to protect himself, you
So, yeah, he was, um, man, he was one of the best too, bro.
I know the high ball.
I watched this clip the other day.
Do you know Speed, the, the streamer?
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
Did you see him jump the car?
No, I didn't actually.
Oh, there's like this Lambo zinging and he jumps over it.
Do you reckon in your prime you could have, you could have.
I think in my prime I could have, I could have gave it a go and, and did it.
I couldn't do it now.
I've got bad knees, so.
Cause I, I remember this video of, um, Christian Nenny jumping over a car, like sideways.
It was like a small car, but he runs and jumps over it, bro.
Bro, he was, he was one guy that was, um, I would say in my top three, one of the most
Naturally gifted guys I've ever seen play the game.
He's good at everything, eh?
Bro, like good at everything, bro.
Like just, just natural, bro.
Him and Haynesy, you know what I mean?
Like it was just, they were both freaks, bro.
Well, he's from the same area.
So we, we, we all grew up in like, um.
So we all sort of, um, you know, come across each other.
We all, we all went to school with each other at Westfield.
Oh, you're Westfields too?
So I went to Westfield.
I went, I went there for a couple of years and then we moved up to Brisbane.
So, uh, yeah, I know those guys quite well, you know.
We, we used to hang out, hang out a lot down in Minto and, um, where we grew up.
So, bro, we were playing touch footy and there was all those guys, you know.
I remember like, um, Haynesy when he first, oh, I mean, um, Chris, when he first come
to Warriors and he could just grip a, like a steed in and he could zing it like 50 metres
and hit the crossbar.
I was like, bro, this is crazy.
And, bro, Chris, bro, he loved lollies, eh?
Go to training with like tiny titties and shit like that, eh?
Oh, man, it's, it's good to see him.
He's doing well, actually.
I've been coaching and I never thought that would come.
I think he's just, yeah, he's coaching at Salford, I think.
And he's just, he's just signed a five-year deal.
So, yeah, good on him.
Haynes is not a nutrition guy.
So, yeah, obviously your time in rugby come to an end.
You, obviously, a proud man of faith.
What was the experience like?
Obviously, I went through the post the other day.
It's still up there.
Good, good on you.
Just like live, right?
Bro, I ought to fucking shit myself.
Bro, but what was that experience like?
Oh, man, it was, it was, it was obviously challenging, you know?
Like I, I, when I put up the post, I never, never thought that I would get terminated
You know, I just, it just never crossed my mind.
So, when I went through that period of time, it was just, yeah, test of faith, obviously.
And it was something that, it was funny.
I always tell this story.
A couple of months, probably two.
Three months before it all happened, I, you know, I said a prayer and I was like, you
know, asking God, you know, bring a challenge on that will really test my faith, you know?
Because if I say I'm a man of faith, I don't want to just say it with, you know, giving
I want it to be genuine, you know?
And put me through something that's like actually going to test me, bro.
You were asking for this.
And I was like, I asked it, not, not really thinking that he was going to give it, you
So, when it all unfolded, I remember.
I remember that moment and I was like, man, I actually asked for this, you know?
Like, here I am in this position.
Okay, this is, this is what's important to me.
I'm, I'm going to stick by it, you know, and go through with it.
And, um, I didn't just go through it myself.
My wife also went through it as well, you know?
And she was still playing at the time.
She was still playing netball.
And so she had to, she had to go through it as well, as much as I did, you know?
And, um, I think when I look back and we talk about it a lot, when I got terminated, it
Cause I, I could just be.
I could stay in the house and not go out in public and just hide away from everything.
Where she, she still had to front up.
She still had to front up, go out there and play, uh, try and perform under all that pressure
that, that was, that was mounting on us during that time.
But man, like coming out now, it's, it's five years since all that happened.
And I'm like, um, you know, we talk about it a lot.
I said, man, I'm thankful that, that, that actually happened.
And we, we've, um, walked through that experience cause it's, it's actually made us a lot
In our faith, um, and brought us, uh, closer to, you know, what was the hardest part during
The hardest part was like, cause I got offered a couple of times to, to take that post down
and then we weren't, they weren't going to terminate my contract.
Um, and, and that the hardest part was, was, uh, falling, you know, being tempted to, to
just like, oh yeah, I'll do that then.
You know what I mean?
Would you have to issue like a public apology?
Off the back of that too?
So, so part of the deal was, uh, issue apology and, and, um, you know, obviously say sorry
and, and do all that sort of stuff.
But I, I thought about it deeply and I was like, no, this is, this is important to me.
Very important to me.
This is, it's actually the most important thing to me.
Um, I, I'm not going to back down, but the whole thing around the whole, that whole post
was a lot of people misunderstood the actual post as well.
Um, and, and the media played a huge part in taking, taking it.
And, and obviously spinning that one word, one word, they, they, they stuck on it.
And, and then everyone I come across during that, during that time, they were just like,
but they'd come up to me, like I would sit in a cafe and like have a coffee and someone
would just come up to me and start blowing up, bro.
Like just dropping F-bombs here and you're like this and that, you know, you're hateful
And I'll look, I'll, I'll, I'll respond in a way that's not hateful and, and talk to
them and, you know, understand, understand their point of view.
And then they'd understand my point.
And at the end of the conversation, bro, they would shake my hand and just walk off.
And, and, and I think, um, if you know me personally, you know, the intention behind
And I think that the media played a huge part in, in taking it and spinning it the way they
wanted to, you know, and, and I think that built all that pressure and momentum, uh,
which, which, which went that way and ended up going, you know, ended up what, um, getting
terminated, which is, which is fine.
I understood as well from the, from, uh, Rugby Australia's point of view, from an organisational
But I think we, we could have understood each other a bit more, you know, if we just spoke
a lot more in, in, in, in depth around understanding each other.
Cause they would've got a lot of public pressure and just like, like, just fuck it.
And, and I think at the time, um, uh, this is just my own personal thoughts, uh, Qantas
who were the, the major sponsors.
You know, at the time they, you know, they were paying X amount and I don't know how much
they were paying.
See, see, yeah, it was gay, eh?
Yeah, he was, you know, and I, like I said, but I've got a lot of family members that
are, that are gay, you know, and this is like, and I still love them the same.
It's not, it's not, it's obviously comes from a point of view of, of, um, of faith
and, and I believe in the Bible and what that truly says, um, which is why I stand by that,
you know, but, um, in terms of, um, you know, uh, hate or anything towards, uh, the, the,
the LGBTQ community, I actually don't, you know, like my intention from, from the, from
my heart is to want to, want to, uh, spread that in, in love based on what I believe in
from the, what the Bible says, you know?
So I think there was a lot of pressure from the sponsors at the time, uh, and which is
why they made that decision, which is, you know, when I look back again, I understand
from a, uh, business point of view and, uh, organization point of view that they had to
make that decision, you know?
So, uh, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the,
like I said, I, I, I believe I'm a firm believer in, in, in God controlling all things.
And so it was out of my hands, you know, it was out of my, the outcome was not in my control,
which gave me a lot of peace and understanding during that time because, because I could
rest, rest on knowing that I'm not in control of the outcome.
So there's a, there's a higher being that's, that's driving that, that, um, the car and
I trust him and I'm going to follow.
that lead did it um were you like that the whole time or was there moments where like because the
way i look at it and i'm probably a little bit more petty yeah i'd be going well this guy's done
this yeah and he's allowed back in the game and this guy's touched a woman yeah he can come back
in the game or this guy's done gbh you've just expressed the belief through a social media post
that was one-eighth of like you know what i mean like that's uh i don't know i'm obviously we're
very two very different people but that's that's what my argument no no exactly bro and and um
bro you'll see it like like i said to you earlier um before we jumped on here like my wife and i
started the podcast and we had one of my teammates on on the on on the first episode actually sami
karevi and we we spoke about we unpacked a lot of this stuff and we wanted to ask him from his
point of view because at the time he was the captain of the reds you know and and he brought
that up he brought the point up you just mentioned like about guys um
you know there was guys that are committing dv you know actually committing actual crimes you know
and here you are just putting up a post um from a religious point of view and you get terminated
like get sacked you know like you're not even doing any physical harm you know and i think you
you know a lot of guys that i come across they were you know that you will see this unfair and
at the time i did see it unfair i was like oh hang on like i didn't this is just my belief which is
i think universe like it's a universal like belief you know
across all christians you know it's like i'm not the only one i'm not the only one that believes in
that stuff so oh yeah even though i publicly like uh you know posted that it was i'm not on my own
on this and to me the bible's obviously been around for so long so i at the time there was
times where i thought you know i've been treated unfairly but then it brought me back around to um
it just just my trust again having my my faith firmly on on who god was and understanding that
um he's in control of those things you know so i uh yeah i can look back now and confidently say
that uh yeah i'm glad i went through it bro like i wouldn't change it again if i went back in that
time again and could change certain uh you know things i wouldn't just just the growth that i've
gotten from it um as a person it's worth it like it's worth it big time bro it's like um
it's like there's a story in the bible that uh you know there's a guy named
daniel gets thrown into the lion's den and um you know i see that you know in the in the event
that i've gone through was pretty much you know put put in the lion's den but god you know saved
him um from from getting attacked by the lions and i see the same thing happening and i was like man
i can't take any credit for it because like god was the one that orchestrated everything and he
put me through all that all of that and brought me out of it as well so i'm uh i'm forever grateful
question if someone posted that exact same post right now do you reckon i'd get the same
consequence for that personally i don't think so yeah i don't think so i don't think so i think
you were just the exact it was good timing for you but the exact wrong time or right time for
like that woke culture yes that timing of it and that was all and that was during that time
um a lot of that stuff was happening you got that let's cancel cancel yeah yeah so you got that you
got let's not understand let's just cancel yeah yeah just and and and at that time it was bro it
was hot like same-sex marriage and all that
sort of stuff you know and i think uh in terms of that it was the wrong timing in terms of that but
to me like i said but it was the right time you know from a from a i guess a godly perspective
um but yeah i i think you know when i look back at it it sounds crazy bro when all that
stuff was happening there was a piece there was a piece on the inside that was it's unexplainable
like it was something that like i just had comfort knowing that it was going to be all right
because because i got i got terminated in april bro and it went on up until like i i ended up
we ended up settling with rugby australia in like december and it went on like it was in the media
like the whole year you know and i i had to live with that my wife had to live with that my family
and that but it was just there was a sense of peace about the whole thing that it was
that was a fine you know it was always going to be good um i think like i think about athletes
now and i think the arty talks about a lot because he wants a like a lot of people to be able to be
through everything as well
and I think it's slowly
where it's more like
socially accepted
where it never should have been
not being socially accepted
you know what I mean
there was that little period
let's just turn a blind eye to it
but I think it's starting
to get back on that rise again bro
I think it's cool you know
the Polynesian guys
is probably one of the most
important things to them
I think they should be
to expressing that
in some sort of way
because if you think about it
it'll actually benefit them
which actually benefits
because it's a big
driving force for them
part of their identity
yeah you're starting to see now
it's a lot more common now
for guys to come out
if that's their thing
being a man of faith
or whatever it is
not shying away from it
and not being ashamed of that
you're starting to see that
what happened to me in 2019
you saw the manly guys
what they call it
manly six or seven or whatever
where they had that little
hiccup with the jersey and that
you know those guys stood for
what they firmly believed in
you know to some extent
understanding each other
when you strip everything
it's just a belief
it's like a belief system
you believe something
I believe something
why can't we just like
agree that we believe in
I think you can agree to disagree
that's the world we live in
you talk about tolerance
you talk about um
have to go both ways
I never thought of it like that
it's not a one way street
and that's where it comes into
agreeing to disagree
like I can have a civil conversation with you
like whether you're
a Christian or not
it doesn't matter
like love you for who you are
I'm not gonna like
stand here and like
want to have a fight with you
that's just not what I
people just have to understand
you can exist to do that
like you don't have to
your belief should be shut down
because it's not what we believe in
it has to go both ways
that's one of the reasons
I love having chats with Artie
and we talk deep about
a lot of different things
I believe in a higher power
I just don't attach it to a religion
like you know what I mean
so like I understand it
from my point of view
but whenever me and Artie
he never tries to push anything
like you always relate
something to a story
and it's always a great metaphor
so I love having chats
what I learnt about
that post in 2019
being more understanding
different backgrounds
I relate to people
when I'm having a chat
to them face to face
cause you see the real me
you see the emotions
you know the heart
what I really want
understanding that person
on different journeys
you know what I mean
you gotta realise
and understand that
where they are in life
love goes a long way
like loving someone
I believe in that
but also standing on the truth
because I believe
that's what sets people
something I'll take
it's hard to stand in the truth
it is hard you know
cause when you stand in the truth
not everyone's gonna accept that
the way you think
get opposition you know
that's fine you know
to me I don't take it personal
I'll never take it personal
it's understanding people
I'll give you the truth
what I know to be true
that's not up to me
that's not in my power
or in control of that
I wanna share that
that's it you know
I'm not gonna keep
and keep pushing on you
to work on people
to know who he is
like the best way
teach someone about it
live the full version of it
and be inspired by it
like you know what I mean
so if someone's like
you're gonna be a fat cunt
where if I see them
living on his highest purpose
and like training
naturally I'm gonna climb
like being a Christian
if you keep telling someone
becomes a set of rules
you don't wanna listen to them
you know what I mean
there's a passage in the Bible
showing your fruits
you see the fruits
and so that's exactly
what you're talking about
if someone's telling you
and you shouldn't be
eating this and that
you won't respond to that
whereas if you see him
setting the example
bro that would make
you wanna lead that way
this guy's actually
he's leading a good example
bro you put it in a good way
that's exactly what the
what the Bible says about
a tree by its fruits
that's just how it is
is there any parts of the Bible
that you ever question
like I don't know
it's something that
I grew up obviously
going to church and that
fully invested in it
you're playing touch
bro I didn't care bro
you know what I mean
I don't wanna get in trouble
that's just how it was
it wasn't until I went
personal experience
that I found God myself
this is why I'm so
my own relationship
with who God is to me
I know what he's done for me
wasn't always like that
you talk to me about
like I would say like
I don't wanna hear it
yeah in terms of the Bible
like I'm still learning
a lot about the Bible
the Bible's quite
and so there's a lot
I'm still learning
everything that's written
I guess my identity
what was the moment
leaned into faith
was something going wrong
a little bit lost
what was the moment
I experienced success
I grew up in a family
you know good morals
when I went to Melbourne
I had the freedom
because my parents
when I left school
and I went to Melbourne
that was the first time
and doing everything
bro like you know
hooking up with girls
and I'm just being open
because it's the truth
just to paint you a picture
of what it's like
I got caught up in that
and so when I went there
for four years bro
I was at Melbourne for two
every time I say this bro
everyone thinks bro
it was only four years
it was only four years bro
it was only four years
I made the change
when I went to AFL
I always tell people this
this was the most pivotal
moment in my career
from the inside out
in that period of time
is something I could never get
in another experience
at that point in time
going on a down spiral
like there was so many things
I was doing off the field
because you don't know
like no one knew my personal
they just watched the game
on the on the field
and they'd see the 80 minutes
but what was happening
behind the scenes bro
going on a down spiral
getting into this
everything you could think of
and you know what
that environment's like
like I was just so
lost and empty bro
like I said to you earlier
I grew up going to church
it was something that I never
it didn't mean anything to me
something we did as a family
and in that period of time as well
I hadn't gone to church for years bro
for about four years
I didn't go to church
so I was just doing whatever I want
and I loved it bro
but there was something
there was something on the inside
that I knew was missing
and I had everything I wanted bro
I had everything you think of
but I was like bro
something missing
I just feel like there's
there's something that I need
that needs to be fulfilled
and I don't know what it is
a church one time
my auntie and uncles
they were both pastors of the church
I had nothing to do
oh yeah I may as well just go
I haven't been to church for four years
I'll just go anyway
you know what I mean
the experience I had
it's hard to explain
like I was singing
and I sang a song
I was singing the lyrics
and something hit me bro
and I couldn't stop crying
but I was bawling my eyes out
like a little baby
bro what's happening to me
like I don't know what's happening
couldn't stop crying
I was singing the lyrics
I played out all the things
that I was doing at the time
and I realised how bad
like how bad I was
I was as a person
and the song's about
never felt like that
what's this feeling
that that was God
it was just the journey from there
and God started to really
that was the experience
that really started for me
like I'm not perfect
through that experience
that there's a higher being
that there's someone
that's in control
and that we're not just put here
there's like a purpose
behind why we're here
and I understood that
and for the first time
I was actually convicted around
what I was actually doing
behind closed doors
God really worked on me
from that time onwards
as you said it right now
everyone's got their own
what do you think
I believe my purpose
obviously to serve God
as a higher being
and to serve others
I want to elaborate
on serving others
in each and every one of us
or like a skill set
something that's within you
that's why you're so
for example clothing
you're passionate
about certain things
and I believe God's
in order for you to be
not only benefit you
but can benefit others
and that's ultimately
what our purpose is
that are different to mine
because I love that
we're wired differently
we all got different
passions and things
and I think it's all
supposed to line up
not only benefit you
but benefit other people as well
or the people that
are in your environment
a question I always
sort of ask people
what do you want your legacy
good question bro
part of what I do
is bigger than that
and someone that's
the best that he can
both as a husband
and as an athlete
that's a big part of my life
in wanting to give
the best that I can
I'd like to leave
that legacy behind
and all the achievements
that I've ever achieved
I'm grateful that
I've got to do that
I've played with some
unreal players bro
been in some big games
big arenas you know
I want people to see
a man of integrity
and that's just honest
and sticks to his principles
like you hear yourself
talk about sports
but you talk about faith
you see your whole
body language change
people that know me
like faith is like
the most important thing to me
only because of the experiences
I've gone through
and like I said earlier
if you'd known me
like 10 years ago
like if you brought up
I wouldn't be interested
like I love talking about
I love talking about family
I love talking about life
but I love talking about
all of it you know
you know gets me excited
and gets me driving you know
oh so you're starting
when's that coming out
my wife and I started
we just winged it bro
like we actually don't know
like I'm actually
you know I was quite nervous
we didn't really want to do it
it's gonna come out
the Izzy and Marie show
we'll launch that next month
we probably have to get you on bro
when we come back
we love talking to different people
people of different backgrounds
she's born and took too
she rips that hard
she's a proud like Kiwi
and just you know
but yeah we love getting
different people on
and just talking about
you know their background
and where they've come from too
it's all happening
yeah I think it's exciting
it's a big part of a transition
post footy as well
I forgot this question
a little bit earlier
but Joseph Swilley
physical comparison
super talented young guy
transitioning to rugby
have you been in contact
what's your advice
for someone like him
moving into that space
it's kind of following your path
you know what I mean
when he was still in school
I talk to him every now and then
I drop him a text
man he's like a talent bro
and I see a lot of people
comparing him to me
personally I don't like
an individual point of view
because I think he's talented
but I just don't like
when people compare
people putting pressure on him
and play you know
you can see why though
I'm just like man
like I want this guy
to succeed you know
he's done a lot already
and I was quite happy
obviously seen him sign
he's got a rugby background
that helps a lot too
one piece of advice
don't put any pressure
forget about what
the media is saying
or your teammates
might be thinking of you
just go out there
and play freely bro
just back yourself
and just play the game
how to play the game
guys who experience
and they might be on
don't get me wrong
could have been a similar
experience with you
going to like AFL
you know what I mean
so is that the advice
you'd be giving him
I'd give him that
he wasn't in control
you know in terms of
yeah is he meant to
yeah what's he meant
like every player
that's playing the game
the biggest and best
contract you can get
personally you know
so if they were in
the contract as well
so but I understand
from their point of view
you know they've been
they've been serving
the game a lot longer
and he's just coming
you know that's on
that's on those guys
that are deciding
decisions you know
or any expectations
the way they play
and just play the game
because he's so talented
what posi do you reckon
could he play fullback
I don't understand
made the switch over
I never kicked either
so that's something
that's a skill set
you can just pick up
and learn you know
he kicks conversions
so like naturally
you think he'd be able
to like strike a ball
size balls too eh
when you hit them
they're nice to kick
he could probably
he's quite a big body
hopefully he can get
some ball at centre
that's the other part
yeah that's the other part
I wouldn't put any
like if I was him
I wouldn't put any
pressure on myself
I would have loved
like in either Japan
France or England
playing here in Australia
relieve that pressure
like away from you
come back after that
that's personally
what I might have
certainly done that
like you went to France
you went to France
I think it's just
a good way to learn
away from all the pressure
from here in Australia
like you were just
in another country
just enjoying that experience
next minute signs
we'll get him done
we'll get him done
could transfer over
he's fucking cool
probably the best centre
at the moment in the game
he's locked down too
you can't get past him
defensively he's like
man he was rock solid
bro you saw that in origin
and you just see that
I don't know about
I don't say many forwards
the change from going
to being a forward
technical and complicated
that the transition
would be an issue
I spoke about that
with one of my mates
and just talking about
he'd be a good number 8
and I said the same thing
he'd be a machine bro
like him off the back
athletic and quick
can move for his size
he'd be a good number 8
because a lot of people
he's not that big bro
he's actually not that big
he's got a big heart
he's got leg drive
there's some talent
one thing I would say
like I would encourage
like if you can do it
it's like now's the time
because like lions
World Cup's coming here
I was talking to Nathan Cleary
would you transfer over
I'm just such a leaguey
you've fucking done everything
like you know what I mean
he would kill it bro
because he'd be a student
and he's got like
I wouldn't say Dan Carter
but like he can kick a ball
obviously the technical side
very different conversation
he'd be a good number 10 bro
does his job well
takes on the line
just knows the game
if he was to go over
there's a short window
look at the option bro
of trying to do it
what's the right age to go
when you've still got time
or maybe like the 27
where you could go like
union and go overseas
for a couple years
like if you were to have a
I think it's different for a lot
depending on where they are
I obviously did it quite early
and I was fortunate enough
I was young enough to come back
they love the game too much
they love league too much
and they just wanna
and do everything that they can
maybe make the switch
is probably the deadline
that's where you don't wanna
if you're going beyond
then it's probably too late
it would take a year and a half
to pick the game up
and it depends like
what position you're playing
yeah you'll pick up the game
yeah yeah yeah bro
those guys are different
when they're born
they live and breathe that bro
it's always good to
actually look at those options
rugby's a global game
there's things that you get
that you probably wouldn't get from league
catching up with Normie actually
who was the good ones
you talking about
nah yeah he was at the league team
you should see these guys up here
fucking helicopters
to nightclub appearances
who's that halfback
but knowing that bro
you can play like
I think longevity was
from a career point of view
you can play a lot longer
and you're not bashing yourself
you know you put your body through
that it's just like
they make you earn your money
it's just the way the game's played
and here's a 16 week pre-season
to add on to that
and here we are in Japan
we're playing like
we get 2-3 months off
at the end of the year
yeah you just can't get that in league
I just want to say thanks for your time
our hour 50 minutes bro
it feels like it's gone like that
I know you don't do this stuff too often
so I was grateful to
get this opportunity
to speak with you
and bro I've loved it
I hope we can chop it up again
so thanks for jumping on
no I appreciate it bro