Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and in
today's episode I was joined by stellar law student Daphne Fong. When reaching out to Daphne
it was apparent that her passion for law is something that really drives her. She was
recognised for this formally winning the Women in Law Law Student of the Year Award in 2023.
Still in fourth year Daphne has authored and co-authored articles in the Lawyers Weekly
and is currently a paralegal at Mark Lawyers, a law firm which stands out for its novel approach
to the legal profession. In the episode Daphne shares how she spearheaded the firm's social
media presence and I discuss with her more broadly the balance that needs to be struck
with professionalism and the evolution that social media brings. She also shares her wisdom
on how balancing law school with a wide variety of extracurriculars is very important. So without
further ado sit back relax and enjoy the show. Hello everyone and with me today I have Daphne
Fong. Thank you Daphne for joining with me. Thank you for having me. I'll start off with
my first name. I'm Daphne Fong and I'm a law student. I'm a law student. I'm a law student
first question. You've made significant strides in merging law with social media. Even at a young
age you've contributed to articles in the Lawyers Weekly to spearheading your law firm's TikTok
account. The legal industry seems to be gravitating towards a more active presence on social media.
In your view what's driving this shift and do you see it as beneficial as a beneficial trend
for the future of the legal profession and perhaps you can also talk about perhaps how
you started your law firm's TikTok account. Yeah so my law firm,
is Mark Lawyers and I started it alongside one of our secretaries Georgia and the way that this
happened was every year we have a firm retreat and at our retreat two years ago I think we had
to brainstorm ideas about what we wanted the firm to basically do or be like or what we saw for Mark
in the future and I had this idea that you know we could start a Mark TikTok account and I was
next to my supervising partner at the time who thought you know what I'm going to do with this
and you know what we could actually do this and so um we basically had to come up with like a pitch
or like all of these reasons why we should have a Mark TikTok account to the partnership and they
turned around and said yes um so yeah we just got started and we started brainstorming ideas
and filming videos and I think that you know that push for more of a social media presence
has come from like myself and Georgia being younger like I'm 21.
Georgia's 25 and so you know we're on TikTok we're on Instagram and I think that um overall
if you look at like the legal landscape you have these young professionals that are starting to
you know like do day in the life videos on TikTok and be like day in the life of a lawyer or day in
the life of a paralegal and I think that um that has definitely started to grow and you're seeing
an interest in that from the public as well who are asking questions like what does your typical
day look like or um tell us more about you know the Clarkship program and you know what we're
going through in the process or something like that so I think that that has been a push and you
know firms have started to catch on so Mark has now done that there are some other firms which
are also on TikTok I know that some of the bigger firms also have uh Instagram accounts which are
specifically aimed at Clarks or graduates so I think that there is a growing push for it and
firms are starting to recognize the value of harnessing social media through recruitment
getting clients by also demonstrating that you know the the firm has a personality to
it and that can actually show the public that you know we're not just these serious intimidating
law firms we actually have lawyers of people and we actually are you know we can be funny or like
nice and like you know it's just changing I guess the way that lawyers in our profession
is perceived to be um so yeah and so I suppose there will be some
listeners out there that perhaps are in law firms that perhaps are having this thinking this is a
really great idea it might be able to do that I mean uh you said you did this two years ago you
would have been at 19. how did you um how did you strike up the the brain rest of the guts to to go
ahead and suggest such an idea or was it um do you think it might be simply because your law firm's
just a really great environment that you know you're able to do that you know what would you
say to someone perhaps who may be a little bit more intimidated by introducing such a creative idea
I think it's that um my law firm is quite open to new ideas and they're also you know they have we
like have this kind of like um emphasis on doing more differently and trying to you know basically
counter what many firms are doing have done traditionally and so I think that's why um the
firm was open to letting us do this TikTok idea and I think a lot of it was also kind of my partner
supporting me and being like hey like we can actually do this and like basically listening
to what I had to say which I understand that not every
um law firm or like you know not not all partners will actually listen to what you know the young
paralegal has to say so I think yeah but I think if you are in in working in an environment that
is kind of less open to um creative ideas like that I think top like basically pitching it from
the angle of this could actually be beneficial for the business and thinking about it from the
perspective of partners is quite important because if you're trying to you know it's
basically marketing if you're trying to show like demonstrate that your firm
um has a really good culture like that's a that's a key reason why you should start a social media
account on TikTok um if you you know want the potential to hire more if you want to hire more
graduates or clerks or paralegals or secretaries like those are the people that are on Tik TOK and
so you know we have hate we've had heaps of um people emailing and us basically to work with us
because they've come like they've seen us on the TikTok feed so I think that you know recruitment
um the prospective clients is another one
clients can also um see you on tiktok and we recently um actually had a client reach out to
us and brought in our client through tiktok basically so that's a pretty cool like thing
that's happened um and i think also within the firm itself it's actually quite fun to make them
and it just adds to the culture um and you know some people are less hesitant to get involved
than others but it's really nice especially looking back at videos that you've done you know
from like an event a year ago and then just having that like nostalgic feeling like oh that
was really fun like it's good to see like this summary of it so you might have the you might
have the best paralegal job in sydney like to be able to make tiktoks and all that i mean i suppose
one of the other questions in relation to that is that um did you face any pushback or did you face
any sort of saying oh look like what are some of the considerations i mean you do have to be careful
i mean you we are um entering a profession and you know part of being in the profession is to
be professional um obviously
obviously there are you know there's a place and a time there's context that's required and
what sort of stuff how do you balance all of that and yeah i suppose did you face any pushback
so i think we thought about that and to kind of prevent that pushback we kind of propose that
um for instance within mark lawyers like we have um myself and georgia creating the content and
the videos and then we run it past emma who's one of our um senior associates and she also runs the
mark lawyers instagram so basically to make sure that we don't accidentally just post the
video or something that could you know be bad or be misinterpreted or you know get us cancelled yeah
like she just checks everything checks the captions make sure everything's okay and then
afterwards it's like ready to upload so it's just like an approval process which is kind of funny
because it's almost like you know you send your partner an email in a draft form and then they
approve it and it's like good to go so yeah it's very similar to that and you know obviously like
not every um personal firm is going to think that a law firm belongs on tiktok but so far
there have been you know only positive things that have come out yeah i think i think as well
it's like the evolution of the industry is definitely hating that way and i think um
people that are resistant to that the market will correct it and so um yeah it's kind of a thing of
you know survival of the fittest and um if if there is a lack of social media presence there
definitely will be a lack of talent coming in through the door so that's definitely a really
important area i think that that's that's you've brought up and um definitely an area that should
i think and thought about by a lot of people so um moving on we'll talk a little bit now um about
last year and um in 2023 you were honored with the women in law awards law student of the year
um could you share more about your journey to be awarded such an honor and what does this
achievement mean to you both personally and professionally um i think for me
you know when i was in kind of late high school i started to get involved in like you know advocacy
and started to grow this interest in law because i did things like you know doing
ugu Really you know media and sporting and all that stuff i care and i started something
of a really interesting thing about you know debating and mooting and mock trial and all
that stuff and then um i started doing some work with UNICEF and um i was a young ambassador for
them where basically what we'd do is like we'd go and speak to children and young people in schools
basically educate them about their rights and then go and speak to politicians about
um what children and young people are essentially saying to basically ensure that their voices are
heard under the children's convention so i think i think
of politicians I kind of felt as though you know I wanted to do something where I could actually
create change and I had an interest in that um and so yeah I just I started uni started working
in first year um at a personal injury firm and then now I'm at Mark and I think that um in terms
of like winning the award I guess um professionally I think that um I guess like the the work I've put
in over the past few years it kind of feels like oh it kind of paid off for something um and I think
on a personal level um it has opened up a lot of opportunities for me which I'm really really
grateful for and I've been able to meet a lot of people who are just really inspiring and also
just super lovely so I think yeah it has yeah meant a lot what was the process like so obviously
you're nominated and then do you go through an interview or a couple of interview rounds what's
the process like?
So you get nominated and then afterwards you have to kind of they send you like a questionnaire
and then you like answer the questions and then there's also a video element to it um and then
from what I understand um they basically mark each response and then tally them all up and then
yeah it's basically just based on the marks to your responses and then there's a category winner
and then there's an overall winner as well where they like basically take
take all the different you know like barrister of the year like legal sole practitioner of the
year apparently like i'm sorry law student but yeah so i think that's how the whole process
works and that was for women in law and there's also an australian law awards one which basically
just for everyone but yeah yeah and so were you a favorite do you need to win like were you shocked
at the night when you won or i was quite shocked to be honest like i was seated you have a speech
ready no they didn't they didn't tell us they didn't tell us about the speeches and so like
the first winner got up i think it might have been academic of the year or something i don't
really remember but anyway she got up and then she was like oh like it would have been nice to
be told to have like the speech ready um and i was seated right at the back in like it was like the
the back row of like all the seats i was like oh there's absolutely no way like they would put all
the winners at the front so they can easily get up the stage and like you would have been told
surely so you could go and like say a speech but no um and then i just yeah i honestly was i wasn't
it and then on the way up because i was so far from the stage in my head i was just like okay
like what what am i gonna say like just just be ready so like yeah but anyway you got there and
you killed it i imagine you did well i think i went okay yeah i would i would change a few
things probably just like look a bit more like less frazzled but anyway well i suppose thinking
on your feet is definitely a good uh train as a lawyer so anyway for all those who go to these
awards perhaps having a bit of a yeah getting ready to prepare something maybe but law school
can be a pressure on you
so i think that often there's this stress to constantly kind of be on the ball and like you
know you have to finish your readings in time and you have to
make sure you're prepared because like the cp in class and you know people are applying for
things and i think it's really um easy to get caught up in that but i think you know doing
something that you're passionate about playing a sport even just like taking a break from things
sometimes that can be good to just recharge is really important i think and just yeah that
balancing the workload and not feeling like you're overwhelmed with managing everything
and so are you an advocate for the user of like calendars um to-do lists
what do you use personally i use google calendar and i love it i i to be fair i use trello for work
because i think that's a really good way like setting out your to-do list but um for everything
else i use google calendar and i like add in reminders about things throughout this that
way like i'm on the ball and then we'll make it like you know a day before so that i know what's
on for the next day um yeah i used to do the whole like get one of those like pretty like diaries for
2024 but then it just doesn't stick so google
calendar yeah it's also meant to happen electronically i think yeah um yeah right
and so yeah making time for things that you enjoy i think a lot of people at times perhaps get a
little bit um a little bit saddened or perhaps a little bit um disheartened when they uh are in
law school or in the real study or something perhaps they've picked up a subject that they
really don't like and then they get started to have second thoughts about am i good enough am i
really enjoying this is this for me um has that something that you've faced in your
as a law student and um how have you overcome that is it just about sticking through it or
is there perhaps um perhaps a greater thought process there of well yeah perhaps this is
something you need to reconsider i think that definitely happened to me in equity and trust
yeah yeah i yeah i think it didn't help because on reflection i definitely went in being like
oh like this is going to be hard like i don't know this is if this is for me and then
when i was actually doing it i was like how is everybody around me like
fine like i was finding it really really difficult and just super challenging and i think at the end
of the day um using the people around you to support you and like work off and collaborate
with is really important because it's almost as if you know at least at law school you're kind of
going through a similar thing as everyone else and even if you're not even if you think you're
the only one in the room that's you know feeling overwhelmed or feeling like it's a lot to handle
there is bound to be someone else who's feeling the same way if not like everybody else in the
room so i think that you know leaning on each other and talking about how you're feeling is a
really good way to get through it because you feel as though you're kind of going through this like
shared experience or someone would say like shared trauma together so yeah i think that um that yeah
that's probably i think the most effective way if you have people you can talk to at work as well i
find that that's quite helpful especially if they're older and they've already been through it
like go and complain about it every second day and everyone would be like don't worry like it's hard
for all of us like trust me like so many people fail like all this type of you know all that type
of talk so i think that kind of helps as well because people have wisdom that they can pass
down to you yeah yeah i think that also like contributes to the to the real community that
the legal community has i think um it's no it's no um surprise and i mean so some people sort of draw
um perhaps a bit of attention to the fact but you know bachelors are friends with judges judges are
often friends with uh some of the people that are involved in the legal community and i think that's
one of the things that i think is really important is that you know the the the legal community is
all-encompassing and it's because there is that shared experience i think of trauma there so so
yeah it definitely is um great advice you should lean on other people so um yeah thank you for
listening to the australian law student podcast the following segment is questions from the bench
here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better and
to get key advice to help you on your journey each week we also take a question from you our audience
bachelors and send us a message to get your question answered thanks for listening
i suppose now we're going to move on to uh the set of rapid fire questions that we asked all
our guests um to allow our listeners to get a bit of insight into you as a person and to get
to know you better um so without um so with starting off my first question I'll ask you
what's been your favorite subject in law school this far definitely public law yeah I think it's
amazing what was that it was just I think it was mainly because I
uh learned about the Australia system and like how to kind of create change throughout that or
like look at looking at the issues with that throughout it um and how to actually change
those things so I think that's yeah that's why it's that's such a great fun subject yeah what's
um one habit that you believe has been pivotal to your success as a law student
I honestly feel as though you know obviously there's things like time management and you
know and all that stuff but yeah but I think like talking to people has actually been quite helpful
And I think, you know, I'm not a HD student or anything like that, but I think a lot of
what I've done is literally just come from like making friends.
Like people say like networking and stuff, but like, you know, there's obviously like
networking events and stuff you can go to and like make really meaningful connections
and actually, you know, find opportunities off other people in each other and whatnot.
But I think talking to people, learning from their experiences, having a mentor, I think
all of that stuff has been like crucial to everything.
So I think, yeah.
So that's great advice.
Can you name a book or a movie that's been significant to you and one you'd recommend
I'm going to cheat a bit here and say a play.
But it's a really, really good play.
It's called Jail Baby and it's by Susie Miller.
And Susie Miller is actually, she's an ex-lawyer and now she's become a playwright.
And like, fun fact, her husband is actually Justice Robert Beach Jones, who's just been
appointed to the High Court.
And the, I won't spoil too much, but the play, it's just amazing.
It's basically talks about, you know, someone that's been incarcerated and it kind of talks
about two young men and it really highlights issues of power and privilege and what happens
to young men when they go through the justice system.
She has a lot of good plays.
There's another one called Prima Facie, which I haven't watched yet, but I've heard very
good things about.
But anything by her is just amazing.
We've never had a play recommended before, so we'll hold on to the first.
For students aspiring to make an impact in the world, what skill or quality do you believe
is the most important for them to develop?
I think, I guess it's kind of touching on what I said earlier, but being able to connect
with people and being a people person, I think is a really, really important skill to have
and actually like following up and developing relationships with people that, you know,
obviously that they can be useful to you in a sense.
But like, I think at the end of the day, it's connecting with people when you have
shared passions or, I guess, shared goals.
And that way you can kind of use those relationships to then, I guess, progress and better yourself.
I think at the same time, being passionate is also really, really important and finding
out your purpose and why you actually are doing what you're doing.
Like, are you just sitting there like reviewing contracts all day for the sake of it?
Or are you actually like, you know, doing something meaningful?
And I think that once you find that purpose, once you find that passion and also surround
yourself by like-mindedness.
And I think that that is a really effective way at, you know, creating an impact.
Yeah, that's great.
And for, and this is a question that we usually ask people that have graduated, but did you
always envision yourself practicing in the field you are, or perhaps that you will be
And if not, what did you think you'd do when you started law school?
What do you think you'd do in high school?
What was the sort of, how has that changed, that perception changed?
I think in high school, I thought I was going to be a barrister.
And then I actually worked with barristers and I realized I don't want to be a barrister.
And then I guess when I first started working, I worked in personal injury and I realized
And so now I'm doing litigation and I absolutely love it.
And I think it's what I want to do in the long term.
But in saying that, I think sometimes it's a trial and error game.
Like you will do something and you'll realize you don't like it or you'll do something and
And I feel like there's so many areas of the law.
I haven't had the opportunity to try yet because I'm at such an early stage in my career.
But I still would say that I do have a love for commercial litigation.
And I think it's something that I want to pursue in the future.
And so what's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and who gave it to you?
So I think the greatest piece of advice I've received has actually come from my partner
at work and my managing partner is when they pulled me aside.
And we're basically like, you're 21, like you need to experience the world and travel
and, you know, go and exchange if you want to.
And I feel like personally, I had felt a lot of pressure to just kind of continue working
and just, you know, like work your way up the food chain and whatnot.
But I think that advice that's yet to be put into practice was quite helpful because it
really showed me that, you know, you have the rest of your life to work.
And I think that, you know, while many of us are lost, we're not going to be able to
And I think that, you know, a lot of law students were also still quite young and we have a
lot of the world to see and a lot of things to do.
And, you know, you can always, you know, do something for a couple of years and then
And I think that, yeah, just taking a break sometimes and ensuring that you can experience
as much as you want to in your young years is important.
Finally, a question from one of our listeners.
In law school, should law students prioritise gaining work experience to enhance their
Or should they focus on maximising their legal education?
How do you balance the importance of practical experience against academic achievements?
Historically, I think firms have placed more emphasis on marks.
However, I think that is gradually changing.
And I think firms are starting to want to hear about your practical experience a lot
And I also think firms are looking at you as like a whole person.
They obviously marks are important.
A lot of people have good marks, but they want to see whether you've got some practical
experience, whether that be in law or outside of law, whether, you know, you go horse riding
or do karate or something like that.
So I definitely can see a shift in what firms are looking for at the moment.
I also think, you know, if you compare two students, right, you have student A and student
B and student A might be sitting at a HD, but hasn't really had much outside of uni,
whereas you have student B.
Who might be sitting on, I don't know, a 70, 75 or something like that.
However, they might have a few years of experience working as a paralegal.
They might have some other experience working in hospitality.
They might also have a few hobbies or run a podcast or something like that.
So I think that, you know, firms would probably lean more towards person B now considering
like while their marks are a little bit lower, they're still good.
But there's so much more to them as a person in terms of their own experiences in life.
Yeah, I think there is definitely a gradual change, but marks are definitely important
to some extent to get your foot in the door.
Yeah, that's a great answer.
And I think I think, again, it's like a lot of these answers, it's transitional.
And yeah, I think there is a transition from perhaps the more traditional way that people
are employed to sort of more of the new, more modern ways.
So anyway, that's about all that we have time for today.
So thank you very much for joining me today.
And I wish you all the best for the rest of the year.
Thank you for having me.