Hello and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond
and today I had the pleasure of being joined by Teal Independent, Zali Stegall. Before
we get into the episode though, our obligatory political disclaimer. At the Australian Law
Student, we strive to present a broad array of views on law and society as a whole. We
are by no means politically affiliated and strive for neutrality wherever we can. So
with that out of the way, let's begin. Before her political career, Zali was an Olympian
and barrister, as well as a member of the Olympic Arbitration Board specialising in
sports law. She is currently the federal member for Warringah and in today's episode, we explore
her journey from champion athlete to her career in law and politics, her legislative priorities
and her vision for Australia's future. So without further ado, sit back, relax and enjoy
Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond. Today
I have a special guest with me, Zali Stegall, federal MP. Thank you, Zali.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Thank you, Oliver.
Without further ado, I'll start with my first question. Zali, you're a former winter
Olympic athlete and began your professional journey as a solicitor and then a barrister.
Reflecting on your political career, what started the journey into politics? And perhaps
can you share some anecdotes that have shaped or even changed your view on the law and its
Yeah, I mean, look, I guess it's a big question. I think if I maybe go back to the start of
why I studied law in the first place, I loved debating at school. So I had a probably romanticised
idea of what being a barrister would be and what advocacy would be. And I think that's
what advocacy looked like in the courts and the idea that you could go in there and really
sort of fight for a cause or for your rights. And obviously, at the end, I did my skiing
career. And back in those days, many of the students won't be of the generation to remember,
but pre-Internet, pre all of that, I studied by correspondence. So I did my Bachelor of
Arts in Media and Communications, which was a way I could do an arts law degree, essentially
doing arts while I still travelled around and skied. And then once I got into the law,
I got into media and communications. And I did my Bachelor of Arts in Media and Communications,
Once I retired after the 2002 Winter Olympics, I started my law degree through the Legal
Practitioner's Admission Board and I did that juggling part-time work.
I worked in solicitors' practice and the barristers' chambers and I had two kids.
You know, I was one of those students that turned up at lectures for weekend school with
a baby in a baby's side.
Pretty frightening idea.
But look, I was always really attracted to the law and I think advocacy and litigation
I really liked, enjoyed, I guess I compared even litigation to nearly competing as an
Your preparation is vital to the outcome, right?
You don't automatically control the outcome.
Like in sport litigation, you know, the judge will find their way.
The work you put in is really important.
I think that maybe the responsibility and the pressure of being able to think on your
feet and having to adapt to the situation also had those.
There were similarities with sport, so for me, I guess it was an environment I was really
comfortable with.
There were some of the areas that I was attracted to on top of, I guess, liking debating, you
I used to give my ski coaches a terrible time with always being fairly opinionated about
what we were doing and what the plan was.
So then when, obviously, I was at the New South Wales Bar for about 10 years, I didn't
really practice as a sister.
I went pretty much.
I practiced for about less than eight years.
And then went straight to being a barrister, mainly because I'd been working as a paralegal
during my law degree.
And so I had had a pretty close view of both what barristers practice and solicitors sort
of law firm looked like.
My dad was a suburban solicitor, so I had a bit of a fair view of that.
And I loved the advocacy of the bar, but I guess I felt sometimes a little constrained
that when you're fighting or, you know, litigation on behalf of your client, I guess you're helping
one person at a time.
Versus politics is really systems change because you're really looking at changing
the law that is being applied.
And so then you're having that opportunity to maybe make a bigger difference.
And so I guess the why then get into politics over the course of my career as a barrister,
I mean, sometimes it's, you know, it's incredibly challenging.
I loved the responsibility of the challenge of the day to day, the, you know, the thrust
of the debate in court.
It really brought back a lot of memories of skiing and competing in that sense of the
pressure of needing to get it right.
And then obviously, you know, when you get the wins, you're feeling really satisfied
and then fairly frustrated when the case doesn't go the way you think it should.
But I was, I guess I was concerned of bigger systems changes, you know, when it comes to
gender equity, when it comes to policy areas.
And when I really looked to politics, I saw that that was an opportunity to address it
in a more systemic way.
I mean, part of my career, I guess I also had the chance to mix sports law and I was
an arbitrator for the International Court of Arbitration for Sports.
So I actually got a chance to go to my fifth Olympic Games to Pyeongchang, to South Korea
as an arbitrator for CAS.
And I was one of the three international arbitrators that got to rule on whether, for example,
Russia was allowed to compete in those Olympics, which was an incredible experience of bringing
And law and all of that.
So, yeah, look, it was obviously, I always loved the advocacy, but ultimately when it
came to politics, I was really motivated that I felt we really needed better gender equity
More women needed to get into politics.
I was very worried that our politics and policies were driven by, well, weren't driven by merit
Like they weren't driven by facts and expectations.
They were driven by expertise, more out of maybe vested interest and power and ideology.
And so on issues like climate change or integrity or fiscal discipline, I found it really frustrating
that policies were not based on sound expert evidence, from what I could see.
And I really wanted to change that.
As a barrister, you have to rely on the quality of the evidence that you get on behalf of
You have to rely on your expert opinions and evidence to back in the main argument
And so as an advocate, I was really used to relying on people's expertise and really deep
diving into issues and understanding that.
And I've really felt that was lacking at political level.
So as an independent MP, certainly I'm not an expert.
And we have to cover so many different policy areas, right?
So many that I have only, you know, I don't have a deep knowledge of.
I really see my role in representing the community is I need to go and get, you know, the feedback
or get briefings by people who are experts in those areas who can genuinely tell me,
is this a good law?
Is this a good proposal?
What are the, you know, what is the problem this law is trying to solve?
Is this political?
Is this well consulted?
You know, is this good law?
And then sort of, I guess, apply a more, you know, like a barrister style.
Like a barrister style or advocate style view on the proposed legislation in Parliament.
That's a really interesting way of putting it.
I suppose that, yeah, sort of evidence, comparing evidence and I suppose expert opinion in politics
and being a barrister, I suppose, as well, sort of a bit of a tangential question.
Did you, in getting into politics, was that, was there a sort of a moment where you sort
of thought, all right, this is what I'm going to get into politics or was it more of a sort
of dipping your toe in a little bit by a little bit by a little bit and then sort of found
No, look, I was guilty of, maybe I was an armchair critic, really frustrated from the
sidelines at the status quo, but too busy to do anything about it.
You know, obviously after my skiing career, getting into my legal career, having a young
family, you're busy, right?
But gradually there was that sense of real frustration over where the status quo was
And I think, you know, as a professional woman, there was a number of incidents that I would
say raised the bar of frustration.
And that was, you know, regardless of politics, someone, the way we treated the first Australian
female prime minister, Julia Gillard, and that was very well represented in recently
in some documentaries, you know, the misogynistic treatment by the media was really inappropriate
And I, you know, that was sort of grating as a professional female.
Then I looked at the, you know, the US election, President Trump, when Trump was elected against
Again, a very qualified woman.
A qualified person versus less so qualified.
And that was grating.
Then we saw the revolving door of prime ministers when it came to obviously Malcolm Turnbull
resigning the way Julie Bishop was treated.
So for me, there was that growing, grating frustration of, I think, a fairly misogynistic
view of Australian politics.
On top of growing concern of, you know, this is not going to work, this is not going to
There's going to be a lot of concern of particular areas of issue like climate change.
So obviously coming from a winter sport in Australia, fairly precarious, right?
In terms of, and very reliant on temperatures.
Having trained in Europe on glaciers, seeing them melt more and more every year.
And then as a parent with, you know, looking at sort of our responsibility to future generations
and just feeling a real sense of we're not on track.
And obviously the previous member for Warringah having been, you know, prime minister at the
time of signing the Paris agreement.
And then very much fluctuating and changing his position and walking back his commitment.
For me, that was really concerning.
And I felt like it was, it was time for, surely we could do, we could do this differently.
And I guess as an individual athlete, I'd never been afraid of being out there on my
own and, you know, taking on the responsibility and doing it.
And so for me, it was a natural fit to go into politics as an independent, because again,
that was on my own, the same way as I had before.
And I suppose with your background in sport as well, I mean, there's a, there's definitely
a undercurrent idea that when you're studying law, when you're studying, I suppose, anything,
it should consume your sort of entire life.
And for a lot of people, it does, some people give up their hobbies and their sports and
that sort of thing.
I mean, you've, you juggled quite well, I suppose, all these different, well, I can't
say well, but I mean, from the results now, I can say that it's obviously juggled quite
Do you think that those sorts of other areas have helped you, I mean, you've mentioned
a little bit about, about, about pressure and how the pressure was sort of the ability
to handle pressure.
Well, I think, especially when I would say when speaking to students, I don't think there's
any wrong decision, right?
Every piece of experience you can gain along your professional journey is going to be valuable
and it's going to add to what you ultimately make of your life.
And I, I'm a big believer in, there are no wrong decisions.
There are just choices that you make and everything else will flow from there.
And so for me, I think it was really important professionally to find, to evolve my career
in a way that allowed me to use all of my skills.
And so I developed certain skills as an athlete, right?
In terms of pressure, in terms of communications, media, those kinds of things.
Then as a, as a lawyer and as a barrister, you develop other skills, right?
You have to be very meticulous, the hard work, the, the preparation that goes into a case,
You don't just get to a final argument by accident.
You have to really drive the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, you know, drive.
The, you know, the, the direction of the litigation that, to the best that you can, towards making
the you want the key issue or the key argument to be the one you are the beginning identify
as your best chance of success.
And so, but at the same time, I found as a barrister, it was a little, maybe sometimes
a bit narrow, a bit limiting.
There was no public, you know, it's a fairly narrow profession.
It's still very led by convention.
It's still a fairly patriarchal environment, I would have to say.
And I found that after, you know, 10 years there,
I was looking for maybe a bit more diversity, a bit more challenge,
something a bit different.
And that's where I found politics was an incredibly good combination
of my two careers and the skills I'd developed in the two.
You know, it's sort of your marketing, your PR, you know,
all those aspects become really important in politics
because if you can't convey the message,
if you can't communicate it to the community,
then it's like it never happened.
So you have to be able to be a good listener and a good communicator
and then I think be prepared to do the hard work
and dive deep on the issues.
So it's really important.
Really challenging but incredibly interesting.
And I suppose in line with sort of politics and the law,
and observations often pointed out with politicians, I suppose,
from perhaps people in that armchair or people in the media,
that there's a large number of lawyers that occupy political positions.
I wanted to ask you, did you see this as an issue or perhaps a strength?
Should people with political aspirations consider legal training
before entering the political space or perhaps is there room
for people of other occupations to enter the political sphere?
Well, I think for our...
..representative democracy to work,
we need to represent everyone in the community.
So we definitely need more diversity when it comes from backgrounds
and, you know, from more migrant.
We need a lot more representation.
It is not a representative, I would say, sway at the moment
and professional experience becomes part of that as well.
What's been interesting in Australia is we've had this evolution
in the last, I'd say, 15 to 20 years of the professional politician
..young people, passionate, which is great,
get into either sides of politics and start off as...
..maybe study law, but then start off as advisers.
And I think in that sense, the study of law is useful
because a big part of an adviser's job is going to be
to analyse proposed legislation, its impact, how it's going to work
and whether, you know, what should be done with it.
And then those kind of career politicians have been advisers,
you pay your dues.
And then you maybe become an MP and then you make your way
to the front bench.
And my concern with that pathway is you haven't really developed
life skills or professional experience outside of that very narrow pathway,
right, interpretation or experience.
And I think it's really important to have business experience,
small business experience.
So how else are you going to understand the impact of laws and taxes,
for example, on the community?
Medical experience to understand the decisions you're making,
around health, you know, obviously, you know,
the Departments of Health and the Health Minister.
I think community, environment, so many areas really need to...
So all those professions benefit from being there
because then the quality of the decisions that will be made
by government and the qualities of the debate in Parliament
will be better by having all that experience reflected.
I mean, I think traditionally you get a lot of people maybe
with armed forces experience as well because there's that sense
of duty, service, giving back to the community.
So, I mean, I think it's a tough one.
I think there's a space for some career politicians.
I think traditionally our Westminster system of democracy has been,
you know, you had a certain career, you reached a certain level
of success and recognition in that career, be it law, medicine or whatever,
and then your way of giving back to the community was
to go into politics to represent them, right?
I think that's maybe the Westminster traditional system.
And I think there is merit behind that system because it means
you have people of a certain experience and maturity getting
into politics with the intention of giving back and doing good.
The problem with that system, nevertheless,
is the generational representation, right?
You want young people to also get into politics.
The worst thing that happens is when young people say,
don't relate to politics, it's got nothing to do with me, you know,
it's something quite sort of removed because, you know,
and I always say to young people, especially young women,
if you're not at the table, you're on the menu, right?
Politicians are making decisions about laws every day that will change,
you know, impact your life and impact your range of options, right?
So it's important to be involved.
Everyone has that opportunity to be involved through their vote.
For me, part of the challenge is getting people to re-engage,
re-engage with the responsibility that is being able to vote in a democracy
and making sure you use it wisely.
Well, yeah, I suppose that, yeah, that's a really interesting comment,
I suppose, on the relationship with career politicians
and I suppose getting experience.
I know one of my friends, he spoke to a politician once,
he was thinking about getting into politics.
He's a bit older than me, but he was talking to him and he said,
if I'm looking to become a politician, what's some advice you can give me?
And he said, wait until you're 35 at least.
You know, that sort of gaining life experience.
And I think a lot of people as well sort of are perhaps a bit turned off
by that element as well.
There's sort of a little bit of a lack of trust, I think,
for people who have been in the sort of political system for a while.
But, I mean, I suppose one, I suppose, counter-argument
that perhaps you could comment on is, well, obviously,
you need to gain some level of sort of legal expertise
and sort of understanding of legislation before entering into politics.
So it's something, obviously,
you would see a legal background is advantageous, I would assume.
Well, I guess I could probably give the insight this way.
I would say my job, my job is nearly three jobs,
is how I would break up my responsibilities.
And, yes, I have the job which is the more legalistic one
in terms of going to Canberra, looking at legislation,
voting on legislation, participating in the debate, right,
raising concerns, reflecting the community.
So that's, and obviously having a legal training assists
in how you look at it.
Look at legislation and analyse its impact.
The second aspect of the job is a very community-based job.
It's actually a communications job and it's about,
and it's nearly a service industry in the sense that I'm actually here
to assist my community in accessing federal services.
So it's literally transactional in the sense of NDIS, aged care, visas.
Part of my job and my team is to make sure people can access
those services or if they've got a problem, we can help them solve it.
So it's literally being on the ground, helping people,
going to community events, going to, you know, local organisations,
charities and meeting with people around their views and ideas
and opinions and their feedback.
So it's that, you know, constituent kind of sort of process is the second job.
The third is you're actually a small business,
you're like a small business operator because I have to operate a team,
I have to operate the electoral office for it to work for my community
and you have to operate a team.
You have to do that in a fairly professional way with,
I would say, not a huge amount of assistance.
Now I appreciate a party politician probably gets more head office assistance
in how they run it compared to me as an independent,
but you still have quite a lot to do in managing your small team
So looking at those three aspects of the role and they're all pretty full on
and then you add, you know, you've got to deal with the media
and the comms and all of that side, I think a level of experience,
professionally, is necessary.
But you could be coming from a marketing or an advertising, you know,
you could come from other backgrounds.
It's ultimately it's, you know, I think a politician will only be successful
if they, you know, if the community sees them as a valid representative,
you know, they can be a voice for them, especially as an independent.
Well, I suppose in relation to that, what area of your life
have you felt the most pressure in?
Was it as an Olympian, as a barrister, as a politician
or are they all sorts of different things?
They're all different forms of pressure, do you think?
They're all different forms of pressure.
It's more that the wins are more, were easier to identify before.
So, for example, you know, in sport you cross the finish line
and you've either won or you've lost.
It's really brutal.
Same, I guess, look with court cases as well in the sense of, you know,
your outcomes, there's a range of outcomes that might be satisfactory
and, you know, you get there or you don't.
Politics is cutthroat in that each, you know, every three
or so years, you know, you've got to be able to do something
you have an election and there's no second place, right?
It's first pass, you've just got to win and that, you know,
if not, you're out of a job.
So it's the most brutal job interview you can ever do, right,
with your community every three years.
But your wins in terms of the work are a lot more nuanced.
Like you, you know, for us it's part of the, it's advocacy around issues,
putting them on the agenda, getting them on the, you know,
nationally with the media.
It's negotiating amendments, pushing the government
through creating social licence to get the government to go
to new policy areas.
It's obviously, you know, holding them to account
when they're failing to do that and we've seen a lot of that
in the last few years.
And also, you know, bringing integrity and accountability back in.
So, yeah, look, it's in terms of the pressure, I think,
I guess I feel probably the pressure the most now,
not in the sense of a personal outcome for me.
I'm not a career politician, you know,
I'm not trying to make my way to the front bench.
This is not a career trajectory move for me.
But I feel the response, I do feel the responsibility keenly
when it comes to the issues because ultimately if I can't, you know,
my main motivation for getting into politics is to create a, you know,
ensure we have better policy for the future for your generation
and your kids' generation and especially when it comes
to climate and opportunity.
And ultimately, you know, the win is if we've moved the dial.
But the beauty of, the beauty about it is also this is not a race
we can ever quit and every fraction of progress is good progress.
You know, sometimes you'd want bigger progress,
but every little bit matters.
And so I take, you know, that's it.
So I'll never move on to some standard questions we ask all our guests
to get to know them a little bit better.
With the first one, what was your favourite subject in law school and why?
I'm having trouble remembering.
That was just, it was a bit of a blur at times.
Look, I did like contracts, you know.
I liked just, I liked the, you know, the reasoning and being really,
you know, the methodology around it.
I guess I quite enjoyed that.
I did also do copyright and what was trade practices at the time,
consumer law now.
I quite enjoyed that.
So, yeah, they were probably the areas I enjoyed the most.
And do you have a book or a movie that's significant?
Do you have one that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students?
Jeez, that's a tough one.
Look, I'm a big, I'm a bit of a soft touch for the motivational stories.
And, you know, like as an Olympian, as a sports person,
I like the, you know, the come good stories.
So as a kid, I actually always, you know, like the power of one in terms of,
especially when I had races or events where I really challenged,
you know, was feeling daunted.
It's that, you know, remembering to, you can set a big goal,
Don't let yourself be intimidated by that goal.
Step away from it and then work out baby steps, how you get to it.
So for me, that was a big part of it.
Look, I'm a big fan of, you know, the recent movie on RBG.
Obviously, I thought, you know, on the basis of sex,
I thought that was a great movie.
And obviously she was, RBG was such an incredibly inspiring leader legally.
But obviously a lot of her legacy being now at risk, which is quite sad.
I suppose now moving on to our final question.
What's one habit?
You believe has been pivotal to your success in the legal field?
What a habit, what a habit.
Look, I think you've got to back yourself.
Like it's really easy to second guess yourself and people, you know,
as soon as you let too much doubt creep in, it becomes very hard to be confident.
A huge part of success is being able to sell it.
And even in litigation in court, just being able to meet the eye of the judge
and hold it, regardless of how strongly, you know, how confident you felt
about what you did.
You have to deliver it with confidence, regardless of what you're feeling
It's a little bit the same in politics, you know.
Sometimes that can be tough.
And I think for many also, and I know sometimes students really, you know,
imposter syndrome can be really tough for people, especially when you're
in fields where you're, you know, you might be expected to know a lot.
And then if you feel like you're not knowing as much as others,
whether or not, you know, that people start to question themselves.
So for me, it's always been.
I think being able to say to myself, what's the worst that can happen, right?
Failure is not going to kill you.
So failure is, you know, it's part of learning and you will ultimately build
from that to success.
That's what I learned through sport.
I think I learned that through my legal career.
And it's definitely applicable to my political career.
Well, Zali, that's about the amount of time we have for this episode.
So thank you so much for joining me today.
And I wish you the best of luck for the rest of the year.