S1 E5 From Law School To Courtroom Tyson Monicolos Insights On Being A Criminal Lawyer

Well, hello and welcome to the final episode of the year for the Australian Law Student Podcast.

My name is Alex Nilsen, and on this episode, my co-host Oliver Hammond had the privilege

and the pleasure of talking to Tyson Manicolo, a solicitor at Chambers Criminal Lawyers in

Victoria. Tyson and Oliver talk about their careers and the path to criminal law. They

also talk about the age-old question, what does a criminal lawyer do when they know their client

is guilty? Without further ado, enjoy. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the

Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host, Oliver Hammond, and today I've got a very special

guest, Tyson Manicolo. He's a criminal defence lawyer based out of Ballarat in Victoria. He's

got quite several years of experience being a criminal lawyer. Tyson, thanks for joining me.

Good afternoon, Oliver. Thank you for having me.

Well, without further ado, we'll get straight into it. Tyson, why don't you share a bit about

yourself, share about your journey towards becoming a criminal lawyer, and were there

any key moments or influences that you've had that have helped you to become a criminal lawyer?

Sure. So, I've been a criminal defence lawyer pretty much for my entire career. My fascination

of wanting to study law came about because I read a couple of true crime novels that were

playing around the house when I was a teenager that my dad used to read. So, my dad's an avid

reader, and he used to read a lot of true crime novels, and I stumbled across a couple of them,

and I read them and thought what an admirable career it would be to be a criminal defence lawyer.

And yeah, so I became a criminal defence lawyer

because I enjoy the idea of standing up for people in court, advocating for people, being

people's voice in an environment or in a jurisdiction where they may not know how to speak for themselves.

So, I was admitted back in 2016.

And I worked initially for a generalist firm where we were doing a bit of crime, but also a bit of family law, a bit of employment law, and a bit of civil law.

And after doing that for about two years or two and a half years, I did a stock take of my week one day, and I thought, okay, on Monday, I drafted a will.

And that wasn't all that exciting.

It was really exciting, really, to me at the time.

The next day, I did a drink driving plea for someone at the local magistrate's court, and that was really exciting.

Then after that, I drafted an enterprise bargaining agreement for a company.

And again, you know, with that being disrespectful to employment lawyers out there, I just thought that wasn't as enticing.

Yeah.

As the plea that I did.

And I just figured after that, that, yeah, look, crime is definitely where my passion lies.

Yeah.

So, then I went off and I worked for a firm that specialised in criminal defence work, and I was there for about four and a half years.

Yeah.

And I really enjoyed my time there.

I learnt, you know, the more finer points of criminal defence work.

The strategy behind criminal defence work.

And I was certainly at the coalface in terms of my practice.

You know, I was at the magistrate's court every day, sometimes doing three or four cases per day.

Yeah.

Doing bail applications, instructing in trials, instructing barristers in the court of appeal.

And it was just a fantastic time in my career.

Yeah.

So, you mentioned in your early days, for those two years, you were working in that more generalist firm.

A lot of law students and young lawyers, I think, often start off like that, working in that generalist firm.

And they're kind of perhaps questioning, oh, do they enjoy this area?

They don't enjoy that area.

Did you say that you found value working in a generalist firm, even though perhaps you didn't enjoy some of the smaller points in terms of wills or other areas?

Do you think that was still a valuable experience?

Absolutely.

I think there's great value in working for a generalist practice when you first are admitted.

Because although you may lean towards a certain practice area when you're studying law, as in, you know, you might go through university and you might be steadfast and think, I'm just going to practise incredibly.

I'm just going to practise in crime or I'm going to become an insurance lawyer.

I'm going to become a tax lawyer.

Yeah, yeah.

But until you actually practise in those areas, you might not realise that it just might not be for you.

So, I think there's a real benefit in starting off in a generalist firm before pigeonholing yourself or before deciding to specialise in a particular practice.

Sure, sure, sure.

I think it also breeds more well-rounded solicitors too, or practitioners too, when you've had exposure to other practice areas.

Because it's very rare these days that a client will come to you with just one legal problem.

For instance, in crime, a lot of clients who come to you with just one legal problem.

Clients who come to me also have corresponding family law proceedings happening in the ground too.

So, having a bit of an understanding of family law, it's helpful in navigating them through their criminal matter.

Because they don't happen in isolation.

What happens in their criminal matter might impact what happens in their family law proceeding.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm not suggesting that you need to be a pundit or an expert in everything.

Every single practice area, believe me, I'm certainly not an expert in family law.

But at least having a tiny bit of an understanding, or at least it being in your radar, so that you're aware of it when you're strategising the criminal law aspect of their case.

Yeah, okay.

Well, I suppose that's definitely different, I suppose, to the reality of what law students and young lawyers might have in their head.

There being sort of very extreme expertise.

And I think you painting the picture that a more holistic understanding of other practice areas that might be related to it actually provides you better expertise to do your own thing that you're passionate about.

So, that's really interesting.

And I suppose moving on from that point, reflecting on your early days as a lawyer, were there any expectations that you had about the law, about criminal law, about practice, or maybe even work-life balance or family or anything like that?

Yeah.

Related to law that were proven sort of incorrect or evolved over time.

Look, there were many expectations that I had during my university days or before I started practising that were modified as I entered the realm.

Yeah.

I think one of the craters that I had was that I had a lot of experience.

And one of the greatest reality checks that I had is that not all clients give their case the attention that you would probably give if you were in their shoes.

And that was something that really struck me.

You know, I just almost had this preconceived idea that if you're a criminal defence lawyer,

that every client that you have is going to be, you know, entirely committed to their case and is going to be harassing you, wanting advice and wanting to know what the plan is and all that kind of stuff.

When in reality, there are some people who unfortunately bury their head in the sand because they don't want to deal with the stress of their upcoming court case.

Yeah.

So, it's in fact you harassing them, you know, trying to get them in for a conference before court or trying to engage them with services that might assist them both personally but also in court.

Yeah.

So, that was probably one of the greatest reality checks that I had was that, yeah, that not every person deals with issues in their life in the way that I might deal with issues in my life personally.

Yeah.

So, I think that's probably a really great way to deal with it.

Yeah.

The other, I guess, expectation versus reality check that I had is that when you go through university and you study your various subjects and I'll hone in on criminal law subjects and evidence-law based subjects, you learn about those

Yeah.

Learn about those subjects from the lens of arguing really nuanced arguments, invariably in the Court of Appeal or in the High Court.

And, you know, there might be some really particular issue that you micro-analyse and find case law from 1860 that supports a position or debunks a position, whatever it may be.

But the day-to-day practice of a criminal solicitor isn't really like that.

A lot of your practice as a criminal solicitor is in the magistrate's court.

And you're typically there not necessarily, you know, defining a word in a piece of legislation and arguing whether or not it applies to your client or not.

So that was another.

That was another reality check that I had pretty early on.

The final reality check that I think I had was also the commercial aspect of running a law practice.

Again, you know, when you go through law school, you don't really turn your mind to the commercial aspect of your practice.

And.

And setting fees for your clients and sometimes having to remind clients their fees are due and and also just estimating what does a case cost?

What is a what is a fair and reasonable fee for the type of case that your particular client has?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and and estimating that.

And look, it's not so bad when you're an employee at a firm because the firm normally sets the fee structure that you just adhere to as an employee.

But then if you decide to go and start your own practice.

Well, then you're now responsible for determining what your fee is going to be for particular court hearings.

Yeah.

And so that commercial reality.

How have you been able to sort of get more honed in?

Is it perhaps been a more senior lawyer that's kind of educated you more in or is that sort of been trial and error, I suppose?

And how how is that commercial side of understanding that lawyering and being a lawyer is is a very intrinsic part of that is business skills and understanding your business?

Look, it's probably a combination of a lot of things.

Starting off with mentoring from senior lawyers when you work at a firm, then it's just experience and trial and error.

Then it's also speaking to other lawyers who aren't necessarily colleagues, but they might work at other firms.

And if you're close enough with them, you might just ask them.

You know what they would charge for a particular type of hearing or, you know, if it's if it's a trial, it's going to be quite complex and quite involved what they think is is an appropriate fee estimate.

So really, it is a combination of things.

But ultimately, I think it boils down to just from your experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I imagine when you're dealing with this, especially when you're.

Outside of outside of a firm and you've got your own practice up and running, this work, I feel very easily tends to consume you and dealing as a criminal lawyer.

I imagine there are some things which are confronting and which perhaps weigh on your mind and do sort of affect your areas of mental health.

You are dealing with aspects of humanity which are kind of down upon.

You're dealing with things that are really important to you.

And I think that's a really important thing to be able to kind of sort of sweep to the side and that sort of thing.

Do you often find it easy perhaps to detach from your work?

I once knew someone who is a psychologist.

One of my family friends who said that if she sort of took everything that she learnt or everything that she knew and everything she'd done at work that day back home with her, she wouldn't really be able to function.

And so she'd just have to switch off and and really not want to talk about those areas of work.

So, you know, with your friends, are you talking about work or are you talking about other things or do you have other interests on the side that sort of keep you grounded or is it are you really someone that enjoys your work so much that you can really just let it sort of live throughout your life?

That's a great question, and it's certainly something that I think a lot of practitioners grapple with, regardless of which practice area you're in.

For me personally, look, I'm sure that due to the confronting subject matter that I've been exposed to over the past eight or nine years of my practice, that it's affected me or changed me in one way or another.

There's there's no doubt about that.

I'm sure that I have biases today that I probably didn't have, say, 10 years ago when I was still at university.

The thing that I struggle to switch off from is not necessarily the subject matter or the, you know, the details of the cases that I'm dealing with.

What I'm more struggled to detach from is whether or not I'm prepared enough for court tomorrow.

And if I've got, say, you know, a bail application or a plea hearing or appearing in a contest mention hearing the following day, I'll normally mull over it in my mind the night before.

And it's very hard to break that cycle where I'll be sitting in front of the TV at night and just thinking, you know, am I prepared for this issue or am I prepared for that issue?

Or, you know, has my client done enough or have I advised my client to do enough courses ahead of his or her guilty plea?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's that aspect of practice that that I find personally difficult to switch off from.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also, you know, a paranoia, I guess, of.

You know, did I do a good enough job today if I appeared in court that particular day?

Did I do did I do a good job in presenting my client's personal circumstances to the magistrate in in asking for a, you know, asking for a more lenient sentence than would otherwise be imposed?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kind of stuff.

Then also as a business owner.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the business aspect or component that you also need to give a lot of attention to and make sure that you're on top of, such as trust accounting in particular, which is a heavily and rightly so a heavily regulated component of a law firm.

Yeah.

So, look, it is quite difficult to switch off.

But look, I am quite lucky.

Yeah.

I've got an endlessly supportive.

Partner who is my biggest supporter and is always very encouraging of me.

And, you know, she's always prepared to, you know, let me vent if I'm feeling frustrated or, you know, counsel me through any issues that I'm dealing with.

So, look, I do have a very fortunate and balanced home life as well as also.

Yeah.

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It's such a well-worn piece of advice that so many lawyers and so many other professionals give, and that is to find a work-life balance.

Yeah.

i am a little bit skeptical whether the perfect balance really does exist in this profession

um but i think despite that it's still important that um people do still search for it yeah yeah

yeah and for many people come in different forms you know so for me for example i'll come home and

something that i really enjoy doing is going for a walk in the evening um just to decompress a

little bit yeah um but for someone else that might be playing a sport on the weekend whatever it is

um that i would encourage your listeners yeah do enter um the profession they do look for

that other component to their life that offset stress of work yeah i think that's really

important

as well i mean um i've um gone to sort of um uh days at sort of these larger corporate firms and

um they often have a lot of um uh sort of alternative or outside groups whether that

be sort of running group or sports groups or um you know other activities and that sort of thing

i think that's all very well and good i think um fostering a better community within law forms is

really important but but i i i was sort of thinking about that and i think that's a really

important thing i was thinking i was like well i also don't want my entire life to revolve around

you know this one law firm or this this work i do want you know friends outside of it and and that

sort of thing and i think that's that's really um it's really good that you've um drawn attention to

that because i think a lot of people um perhaps go to larger firms and offer such a um very big

sense of community um they might sort of stop there and not really want to go outside that and

i imagine for some people that does work but i think um i don't know i i really like to um to

play football or soccer and um i i really enjoy that and that's like a really um sort of cathartic

and therapeutic um um part of my day to sort of de-stress especially with uni and all this sort

of thing so yeah definitely find um your outputs if you're listening but um i'll go on to one of

the more um cliche questions that a criminal lawyer gets and i think this is probably the

most classic layman's question um ever it's a question that my um my granddad and

my family members were asking me um even after one year of law school which i just didn't really

understand but um a common query is that um criminal lawyers revolve around handling cases

where a client may may be guilty um and in certain cases i imagine that the guilt of the client

might almost be certain um whether there be cctv footage or there be um you know some other type of

evidence that points so clearly to your client how do you

approach these situations um especially when um you know there's obviously requirements to meet

with due process and uncertainty and do you feel that there's um perhaps a bit of a moral question

that needs to be asked or a higher level or how do you approach that look that's a fantastic question

too and and um and it is probably the most common question that i am asked as a criminal defense

lawyer how do you represent people that you know to be guilty

i think the starting point has to be that you have to remember your role within the criminal

justice system and my role is not to decide whether or not someone is guilty another thing

to bear in mind is that um the way that the criminal justice system is geared um you it's it's

nature and so when a person is interacting with the criminal justice system they're being told by

many people they've done the wrong thing starting from the police yeah police will knock on their

door or will find them on the side of the street or however it is that that um that person comes

to police attention and they've already got the police against them yeah they don't need their woes

and they don't need their woes and you know what they've done so the the police will come and

they're going to be under your control and they're going to be able to do whatever they want to do

and i think that's the key to it i think that's the key to it because it's about being able to

be able to understand the situation and being able to understand the situation and not being able to

be able to say a particular thing but having the person whom they've hired to represent them and

look after their interests also tell them that they've done the wrong thing or that they're guilty

or or share their personal view about their case

I think, to go down if you start prejudging cases as a criminal defence lawyer, because even though you might look at the evidence, the police brief and look at the evidence and objectively it's a strong police case, there are those cases where despite that, a person really is innocent.

And it would be really dangerous if I, as a criminal defence lawyer, start looking at police briefs and start forming views about them, as in about my clients, and strong arm them into a particular position when they insist that they're innocent.

A perfect example that I have to really demonstrate this point is...

I acted for this guy many years ago now, and he was in and out of custody, unfortunately.

And his parents called me one day and said, you know, he's been arrested by the police again, and he's over at the local police station.

Can you please go and see him?

So I did, and I had a look at the police brief of evidence, and my client on this particular occasion was charged with trespassing.

And aggravated burglary and assault.

And the allegation was that he had gone to his ex-partner's home and knocked on the door.

She didn't let him in, and then it was alleged that he kicked the door open and then assaulted him and left.

And sure enough, police took photos of the door jam and the door.

And you can see that the door had been damaged and forced open.

And they had a statement from the ex-partner who confirmed that he did all these horrible things.

So when I went and visited him in the cells, I read the allegations to him to get his instructions.

And he swore black and blue.

He said, no, Tyson, I didn't do this.

I didn't do this.

And if anything, he said,

my ex-partner sent me a text message telling me that she has broken the door herself so that she could get me in trouble with the police.

So I got his phone from the property steward at the police station.

And the text messages were in a different language, so we had to get them translated.

And sure enough, once we got them translated,

what my client instructed me was in fact correct.

She had sent him text messages saying,

I'm going to break my own front door and then call the police so as to get you into trouble.

Now, had I formed a personal view about the case and strong-armed my client into pleading guilty,

I would have potentially influenced or persuaded him to plead guilty to something that he did.

And he didn't do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's a really important point that I know a story of a lawyer who had a client alleged that he'd been shoplifting.

And the security cameras and whatever had him as a shoplifter quite so what seemingly quite clearly on the camera,

whether it be he was wearing the same clothes and whatever,

whatever else um and you know the lawyer at the time he um he sort of blew it off and the

bloke was saying no i never did this i never did this um anyway he'd be strongly i'm depleting

guilty and then later on he finds out that these security cameras were actually um were actually

faked like the security guards at the at the shopping center or whatever had um themselves

um been stealing and mistook uh and basically disguised themselves and so these types of um

cases i think you make a good point um would get sort of swept away if if criminal defense lawyers

um did have their own preconditions and so um yeah i i thank you so much for sharing that that

that that perspective it's a it's a very important thing um uh well tyson we're we're we're close to

wrapping up um i just wanted to uh give you um uh

firstly a thank you but also just uh a question of do you do you have any other advice i suppose

to any other um budding young lawyers or law students that perhaps want to get into criminal

law or follow a journey like yours yeah sure probably the greatest advice that i can give

um budding criminal lawyers out there is courts uh free public places to attend um subject to

certain to some conditions you know some cases are closed court but for the

voting

vast majority of cases out there they're open to the public um i'd really recommend wandering down

and uh having a having a look at court go and sit in on a trial um go to your local magistrate's

court and um you know sit in a busy courtroom and watch how uh seasoned uh solicitor advocates or

other criminal defense lawyers out there um apply their their craft and their trade

um yeah that's that's probably the greatest piece of advice um that i can give is to simply just

wind it down to the courts and go and have a look for yourself that's that's great advice tyson and

um i thank you so much for joining us on the australian law student podcast i've been your

host oliver uh and this is uh i've been an interview with tyson monicolo uh criminal

defense lawyer out of ballarat victoria and so thank you everybody for listening