Madeleine Hampson A Grads Perspective Inside Hall Wilcox

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond

and I'm pleased to announce that for Season 3 2025, Horland Wilcox has decided to support

the Australian Law Student and its journey to assist students. In today's episode, I had the

pleasure of sitting down with Madeline Hampson, a graduate at Horland Wilcox. In this episode,

we dived into her journey from law student to working full-time one of Australia's leading

commercial firms, what the transition's been like, what she's learned and her tips for students

looking to break into big law. If you're a law student thinking about graduate opportunities

and like what you hear in this episode, head over to Horland Wilcox's career page.

You can check out the link in the podcast description to find out more.

But without further ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the podcast.

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond

and today I'm joined by a very special guest. I've got a graduate here from Horland Wilcox

and now we'd like to start off with some questions.

Just to get to know what Horland Wilcox is about and so I'll ask my first question here to Madeline.

What drew you to Horland Wilcox specifically and how did the firm's graduate program align

with your career goals? Thanks Oliver. I was looking for a reputable firm in Australia that

had this perfect balance between an established reputation in its practice areas and also at the

same time is looking to grow and innovate and adapt to technology and I found Horland Wilcox

it was definitely something that was important to me as I grow in my legal career that the firm

grows with me so Horland Wilcox definitely nailed the brief on that. That's great and I suppose Horland

Wilcox does have that emphasis on a smarter law approach and I suppose in your life as a graduate

and I suppose a little bit of backstory about you I mean mentioned that you were a previously

mentioned that you were a tip star in in the courts I mean well what's what sort of technological

attitudes are Horland Wilcox taking that I think really sets them apart from perhaps

even the courts or perhaps other firms and have you noticed that? I think it's the fact that they

actively find ways to use new technologies in their daily life like at the moment we have a

co-pilot trial that a couple of my colleagues are working on to figure out how we can grow with the

technologies and not against them. Horland Wilcox has always been a firm that's cared about that and

they've been very much concerned about their growth so I've really enjoyed that experience with them

and the graduate program itself does have different ways of training the lawyers like we have a program

that we follow throughout the year that we learn about different technologies and how to use them

in our daily lives as well the courts as you can imagine may not use these technologies they're a

little bit more controlled they're not going to really be able to be effective with the technology

in their day-to-day life so some of us I mean are they not going to be able to be effective as well

traditional in the focus, but I think that that's what society needs them to be. But coming to the

graduate program, I've really enjoyed the technological aspect of it. Yeah, I can imagine

that going from perhaps a bit more physical copy records and things like that to sort of more

digital stuff, plus the use of something like Copilot, you're seeing, yeah, these sort of

technological advancements across the board. And it's good to see that a firm like Holland Wilcox

is appreciating that and taking those on board. And that does really set them apart.

I suppose now moving on to your time in the graduate program, could you share a bit about

the structure of the graduate program and what aspects you think it sets it apart from other

firms? Yeah, of course. So the structure of the graduate program, you do three, four month

rotations. In each of those rotations, you are given a mentor and a supervising partner. And

at the beginning of the program, you are given a buddy.

That those mentors and supervising partners oversee your work and provide you feedback.

But we do have a bit of a horizontal structure in that you can receive work from anyone in the team,

whether that's a first year lawyer, whether that's a partner themselves. And I think that

in itself sets a firm apart because you, because we have an open plan office, you are sitting

sometimes next to the partner that can just lean around the desk and give you that work. So it's a

open, flat structure that we operate in. And, you know, I think that's a very, very important

thing. And I think the timing of the rotations also sets apart the firm. I think four months is

enough where you gain experience and understand the lifestyle that each of these lawyers live and

the work that they do. And it's also not too long that you're sitting there wondering what the next

thing is. And you're not in a program for two years and you can really get a head start in your

career if you complete the program in a year's time. And I suppose with that sort of more

approachable approach, let's say the more horizontal approach, do you find that you're

able to still get that sort of mentorship advice with partners, but also, you know, how do you

separate, I suppose, that perhaps from perhaps this idea that there should be perhaps a bigger

distinction between partners? You know, for example, with the sort of more traditional style,

the more traditional hierarchical style, it's very rare that you'd perhaps get in

contact with a partner who's more traditional than you are. And I think that's a very, very

important thing. And I think that's a very, very important thing. And I think that's a very, very

important thing. And I think that's a very, very important thing.

You know, each day or each perhaps sometimes in weeks, you're dealing with

senior associates, lawyers that are in between that, you know, how much perhaps on a daily basis

do you interact with more experienced? And do you think that that mentorship helps?

I think it puts you on a fast track to progress in your career. I think that day

I interact with my partners and I have in previous teams almost daily or if not,

daily and because I'm getting mentorship directly from the best of the best it means that the

feedback that I'm getting is valuable it's consistent and it comes with decades of experience

behind it and in perhaps firms where you have a more traditional structure where you have to go

through three or four levels and you don't get that connection as fast I query whether you will

get the progression as fast and Hall & Wilcox really prides itself on giving you dynamic and

hands-on experience straight away and that's what I've found with the program that really sets it

apart. Well and I suppose in your time as in a graduate in this graduate position how have you

found the work have you have you found the work engaging do you feel as if sometimes perhaps it's

it's less so do you do you really think that Hall & Wilcox is giving you the best opportunities I

think when it comes to the work that you're doing?

I do think that they're giving me the best opportunities for the work that I've

been given because it's engaging in the sense that I have been or I should say that I've been

in the general insurance team I've been in the dispute resolution team and I'm now in the tax

team so one team that's half litigation half advisory or very broad areas yeah one that's

litigation and one that's completely advisory in the work that we do in Sydney and I think I

have been able to get a lot of feedback from them and I think that's what I've been able to get

from them and I think that's what I've been able to get to so I have been able to get a lot of feedback

from them so I have drafted revices I have gone and appeared at court I've attended client meetings

mediations directions hearings hearings and I think by listing this that you can tell that Hall &

Wilcox really prides itself on getting their graduates involved and I think that's how you keep

graduates engaged and especially in a short period of time it's four months you really want to give

them that breadth of experience and Hall & Wilcox definitely invests in their junior roles in doing

that.

And I think as well, I think if you have friends who are graduates or anything like that,

or you've been a graduate yourself, you realise that some firms you are swamped sometimes with paperwork,

you're on those nasty tasks.

But it sounds like all the little clerks take a much different approach, a much more hands-on approach.

And I think that that makes it much more engaging.

Definitely.

I mean, there are always times where you are stuck with some tedious tasks,

but I'm happy to say that those are the absolute minority in my work.

And more meaningful and progressive tasks have been given to me at a graduate level

that may not otherwise be given at other firms.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think now moving on, how has Hall & Wilcox assisted you to explore or refine your areas of interest in the law?

I mean, you've mentioned some of the graduate rotations that you've done, very broad areas.

And did it perhaps challenge any preferences you might have had going in,

or perhaps it might have reinforced those?

And, you know, for example, if you went in,

like I said, you might have had a lot of questions that you might have had going in,

like I said, you might have had a lot of questions that you might have had going in,

and if it was a loving tax, you might have hated it to me.

That's fair enough.

It's done both.

So, first, my previous experience has been primarily in commercial litigation.

I worked for a senior counsel while I was in university,

and then I was at Tipstaff Supreme Court,

and now I'm at the firm, and all of this was primarily in commercial litigation.

So, going into the dispute resolution team,

I knew that I would enjoy it, and Hall & Wilcox reinforced that.

Surprisingly, I liked it.

love tax law at uni and everyone is always shocked about that so again they've reinforced my interest

in tax law from being in the tax team but I definitely think I was challenged in keeping an

open mind with general insurance because when you hear insurance you do think of it being quite niche

whereas I had such a broad experience on the matters that I was working in on insurance and

and I think that really I've decided I've kept an open mind about going into that rotation

and I was really happy that I did because I hadn't worked in insurance and then I saw the quality of

work that we were doing in insurance and I really enjoyed that so I would say to anyone that they

need to keep an open mind because you don't know if you like something until you have worked in it

and I think Colin Wilcox has definitely assisted both to reinforce but also to challenge my views

on different areas of the law.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so after this graduate program obviously you'll select the area that you think you're

most interested in.

Do you have a preference at the moment or is this something that.

That is difficult to say.

Honestly I have found that I've loved all areas that I've worked in so I am not sure.

It's hard.

It's a hard decision to make.

Well it sounds like Colin Wilcox have set you up to be able to choose that position with a

with a very open mind and I think that's really good when it comes to your

your time as a graduate.

I suppose now also looking a little bit into that when you first started off in the graduate

program what were some of the things like what I mean talk about some of the training I know

that that Colin Wilcox they have offices in other areas of Australia and I know that Sydney's

Sydney's offices is quite strong a larger office and things like that.

How was the introductory process I suppose.

The introductory process is great.

We had our first day.

Here and then we nationally flew down to Melbourne.

So I think there was about fifty five or fifty seven of us nationally including all of our offices

including Newcastle Darwin Perth Brisbane Melbourne like everyone came together for a couple of days.

We did a range of activities to find out who we are as people and then learn about obviously the

firm's induction processes and then when you come into the firm each of your teams gives you that

introduction and they'll give you a run through of what is happening in each team and you'll find that at the beginning of each rotation.

Also depending on the team that you work in you may actually collaborate with different offices.

For example Tax is a national team and a lot of them are based in Melbourne.

So I'm constantly talking with the people in Melbourne there.

I found in dispute resolution and a similar experience with the Newcastle and Brisbane teams I did work for some of those as well.

So I think the strength in Holland Wilcox.

Having those national offices is that you do get this cross-border collaboration and also cross-team collaboration is really good.

And then I think as well like I think getting all the grads together from all these different offices.

I mean it must foster some some good friendship and some good camaraderie amongst the grads.

I think is again another really I think it has to be a massive pro it has to be a massive benefit.

Definitely it's really it's really great and even when you see for example.

The graduates have to send out a quiz email every day and the graduates host at least on level 17 with the commercial teams the quiz at 5 p.m. each day.

And when you see the names of the national grads coming through like you really remember who's who from the induction week and it's it's nice to know that we had formed those bonds at the beginning.

Well it's yeah it's a very I think yeah it must just foster great teamwork.

And I think that's a again another really big benefit of Horne Wilcox's approach.

We'll now move on to perhaps some more of our standardised questions some more personal questions about yourself.

We'll start with the first question.

What was your favourite subject in law school and why?

I would say equity and trust.

It's maybe a controversial answer but I think I was told that it was going to be notoriously difficult and I like a challenge.

So it was one that I definitely put a lot of extra effort into doing well.

And in doing so I really liked it and it ended up being my best subject.

So maybe that's why I like it the most.

I think there is definitely a vein of people when they hear that there's going to be a difficult challenge when it's a hard challenge they try harder.

And because they try harder they actually love it more and then they do better.

So exactly.

Yeah and I think I mean at the moment I know lots of people I mean myself I'm doing equity and trust right now.

And yeah I mean it is a very interesting area of the law and I think yeah as well though if you if you're in the camp.

Of the ones that love it.

I think you really do love it.

Yeah.

I think there is.

Yeah there might be a controversial answer.

And we're on to the second question.

Do you have a book or a movie that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students?

I actually do.

It's a nonfiction book called The Defining Decade by Meg Jay.

She completed a PhD and has continued to present on this idea of why 30 is not the new 20.

And it challenges all these ideas that you know you have to have everything sorted out in your 20s.

Which you obviously don't.

But it also gives you some great tools in making it the best decade possible to set you up.

While the lessons it does sound like she is talking about this can only be done in your 20s.

I think the knowledge in that book is really applicable to all decades of life.

So I recommend reading it.

And so is it so sorry talking about how in your 20s to trying to set yourself up for.

Correct.

Yes.

Yes.

So it talks about the ideas of identity capital which I know sounds like a buzzword.

But.

She's basically saying that you should make sure that you travel and do as many things in your 20s that you can talk about later in your life.

Because you'll never know when you'll connect with people and form connections based on those things that you've done.

Yeah.

And I think I think it's very applicable I think to a lot of law students.

They often are in this sometimes perhaps for better or for worse I think at law school.

I mean lots of people I think go straight from high school to law school and then law school to a graduate position.

And you know there's nothing.

There's nothing wrong with that that method that hard working method.

But you're right I think you do have to have some exterior experiences.

You need to get out there on those holidays.

You need to do things like that.

Exactly.

And be well I think rounded.

But yeah.

Exactly.

And then even having different work life experiences as well.

Like for example I worked at the hospital.

Yes.

While I was in uni for five years.

So things like that experiences outside the law are so important in your career.

And I think this book really highlights that.

I know I know stories of grads who before.

Or.

Sometimes even clerks before becoming a clerk or a grad they'll purposely take a job that they haven't taken.

Like I know one of my friends he like worked at the pub for like all the months leading up to be a grad.

Because he was just like I'm probably never going to work in a pub again.

So I want to do it.

Yeah.

You know that was something he did.

I mean that'll teach all you need to know about social skills.

Yeah exactly.

You're right talking to people and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Perfect.

So it'll be good.

Moving on to the next question.

Did you always envision yourself as a lawyer or perhaps in the practice area that you do like.

And if not what did you think you'd do.

I did not.

I envisioned myself as a chef.

I started university.

I still in my second year thought I was going to drop out and become a chef.

I'm glad I didn't in the end.

But no being a lawyer was not always on the cards for me.

I did really enjoy it when I was in university.

Don't get me wrong.

But I always envisioned myself doing something hands on.

And law is hands on in a different way.

Well I mean I think being in a chef I think some of those skills those organizational skills they often talk about mise en place the French word for everything in its place.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean those sorts of organizational skills I think that chefs have.

But I mean yeah.

Is it something that's still a hobby to you do you think?

Oh I still love cooking very much so.

I believe that grad school and my year are quite close and we recently went on the trip away and I did a fair bit of cooking on that weekend for the group.

Yeah.

So it worked out.

That's great.

That's great.

I'm doing both.

Yeah you're still exercising that muscle.

And now we're approaching towards the end of the podcast and so I'll ask the final question.

Is there a piece of advice you've received that stands out from the rest and one that you'd like to share with others?

Yes.

I think the best piece of advice I received was that every rejection is a redirection.

So no matter what rejections come your way.

Whether it be in the clerkship process, whether it be in the graduate process, it does not mean that you have done something wrong.

It means that there is something else out there for you and it just wasn't in that specific direction you were aiming for.

I think in university every law students keep trying to plan their careers and quite frankly at the beginning you stumble into where you're going to go and you can make decisions based on that.

So I think keeping in mind that everyone is different.

Every rejection you receive is not a reflection on you, it is just a redirection of where you might start off.

That's really great advice and I think well when I talk to people who have gone through interview processes and things like that and have come out and have been rejected I think you can look at it in the negative sense but I think in the positive sense it's well they didn't think that they were a right fit for you and so you probably weren't a right fit for them.

So you know you're also winning in the sense that you're right you're getting redirected and you're avoiding a place where perhaps you're going to be rejected.

Perhaps you wouldn't have fit and so on and so forth but that's about all that we have time for today.

Thanks so much for sitting down with me and I wish you all the best for the rest of the year.

Perfect, thanks Oliver.

Thank you.