Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and on
today's episode it was my pleasure to interview Hall & Wilcox graduate Larisa Ziz. For season
one of 2024 the Australian Law Student is proud to announce that Hall & Wilcox have decided to
support us in our journey and in doing so it was my pleasure to sit down in their lovely Sydney
offices and find out what it's really like to be a law grad in one of Australia's top law firms.
In this episode I discussed with Larisa her journey to becoming a grad, what law students
can expect to encounter at graduate interviews and how Hall & Wilcox's culture in particular
was really important in her decision to work there. If you want tips and tricks to become
a law graduate you've come to the right place and if you'd like to explore Hall & Wilcox's
graduate and career opportunities click the link in the description or head over to
theoslawstudent.com. Now without further ado sit back relax and enjoy the podcast.
Thank you Larisa for sitting down with me today. Thanks for having me it's really nice to meet you.
I'll start off with my first question.
Larisa you've been a law graduate for around about a year now at Hall & Wilcox.
How have you found the transition from law school to law firm and what was the process
in applying and eventually landing a position at Hall & Wilcox like?
So I think my transition from law school to law firm was a little bit different to most people
in that I finished my degree midway through the year and I didn't start as a grad until February
the following year. So in between that time I was working four to five days as a paralegal
and I got really lucky in I think the biggest,
biggest challenge for people is moving from law school where it's really theory based to
getting those practical skills whether it's billing, matter management, everything like
that. So I was lucky that I had a bit of time to build those skills up but in saying that when
you come to a law firm as a grad they're not expecting you to be perfect and those are all
things that come with time and practice. In terms of getting a job at Hall & Wilcox as part of the
graduate program the process is pretty similar to a lot of other law firms. So you start by applying,
submitting your CV,
and a cover letter really just talking about why you want to join the firm. Shortlisted candidates
are then invited to a graduate breakfast where you can meet other the current grads as well as
partners at the firm and really just get to know our people and ask questions. We then have two
rounds of interviews so your interviews will be with a member of People & Culture and usually a
partner at the firm and while it is you know you've got the general questions about why you want to
come to the firm, talking about your experience and your resume, it's really, really conversational
and it's all about us getting to know you,
and you also getting to know us as well. I think one thing with interviews is people really think
I've got to be you know what the firm wants and I've got to be a right fit for the firm but it's
also about you finding a firm that suits you and what you're looking for as well and I think that's
something really important to keep in mind when you're doing the process. But after the two
rounds then you hopefully get an offer and start as a grad. And so would you say that the skills
that you're developing as a lawyer have been adequately developed in law school or would you
So there is a new set of skills that you're developing.
It's definitely a new set of skills.
I think there's a lot of skills you take from uni,
whether it's communication skills, working with other people.
Things like legal research are really, really helpful,
but there's a lot of other things that you won't have done,
usually until you get to a law firm.
So even just how to deal with clients, how to run your own matters,
having that autonomy, things like billing as well,
are all things that you won't really get a chance to learn until you're in practice.
And what was your reaction after you did your interviews?
Did you walk out feeling like the interview went really well and you smashed it?
Or were you perhaps a little bit more worried that maybe something I said was wrong?
I think after the first one, I was really worried
because I find in an interview, you do have to sell yourself.
And I find that really hard and really uncomfortable.
But I walked away being like, this is the firm I want to stay at.
I really enjoyed the conversations I had with the people there.
So I was just, fingers crossed, I got a second one.
And I think by the time you get to the second interview,
the questions are relatively similar.
It's just a different set of people getting to know you.
I think I did a little bit better the second time around with some practice.
That's good, you were a bit more relaxed.
And so what, you were able to tell sort of Hall & Wilcox's culture
already from the first interview.
What sort of questions were you asking in the interview?
So things that I was asking were really focused around training programs,
mentoring, everything to do with learning and development,
because that was something that was really important to me,
particularly as I'm starting out in my career.
Another thing I always asked was,
why did they choose to come to the firm, whoever was interviewing me?
And if they'd been at the firm for a long time,
what was the reason that they'd stayed at the firm for a long time?
Because I know now that can be a little bit rare.
And I think those answers really helped me to figure out why people liked the firm
and what the culture was like and maybe what my day to day experience would be.
Yeah, I think that's really important for the listeners that are listening
who are perhaps going in for interviews and stuff like that to ask the questions,
because, yeah, if you're not asking the questions, how can you really know?
So that's really good advice.
So moving on to the next question, Hall & Wilcox's graduate program.
you've experienced rotations through various practice areas via the graduate program.
To better inform your choice of the area of law that you'd like to practice in,
could you share which areas you rotated through and describe the rotation process?
And also, what advice would you offer to aspiring lawyers
on selecting the most suitable practice area for them?
So my first rotation was in the banking and financial services team.
I then moved to the corporate and commercial team, which is where I've now settled.
And my last rotation was in commercial dispute.
So in terms of our rotation process, it's three, four month rotation.
So and I think that's a good amount of time to get a feel for the team,
understand what the work is like and what it would look like if you stayed in the team long term.
And it's a really great way to build up different skills in different areas
and also to meet different people at the firm.
So you're not just confined to knowing a handful of people, which is really nice.
I think in terms of tips in choosing the practice area you want to work in,
be really open minded.
Don't know what you're going to like until you give it a go.
I thought I would never want to do corporate law,
and that's exactly where I've ended up, and I love it.
I also think that if you're at a place that rotates and there's an area
that you're interested in, go and speak to the people in the team
and get a feel for what your day to day would be like.
Ask them about the work they do and the clients they have.
And that will hopefully give you a better idea of if it's something
you'd be interested in.
I also think if you get to rotate, it's really helpful
if you can do a mix of litigation, transactional and advisory work.
Because again, there are three different skill sets
where no matter where you're going to end up,
they're going to be really, really useful.
And if you don't end up in a practice area that you love, it's the same thing.
The skills and the knowledge and the relationships
you build are going to be useful throughout your whole career.
So no matter where you end up, I think that's the most important thing.
And so what would you say is the most important thing in determining
what practice area is right for you, whether you love that area,
whether you find that area really interesting
or perhaps whether you're good at that area?
Because I think I've heard of people who perhaps
are in a practice area that they're really good at,
but they actually don't find the work interesting, nor do they love it.
Or perhaps that they love an area because they love the people,
they love the culture of the area, they love perhaps some of the work,
but they don't necessarily find it interesting.
Like, do you think that's a good combination of both?
I think it's a combination of everything.
And that's something I struggled with because I loved all three rotations
But I think it is a mix of you have to enjoy what you're doing.
You obviously want something that's going to cater to your skill set,
but not to say that you can't improve skills that you don't have.
I think the team is
also super important because you're there five days a week.
You want to work in a team where you think it's a good environment
and where you're going to learn and where you get along with the people
and also where you're going to be challenged.
So I think it is hopefully finding a mix of everything.
And so the team that I think also another important thing to note
is that a lot of lawyers, the teams that they're in,
they end up becoming good friends with outside of work as well.
Is that something that you've been able to foster?
Yeah, I think I've been really lucky in that every team
I've been in really social teams as well.
So it's really nice to everyone
works really hard and there's a really nice work ethic and culture to the teams.
But then you can also have a drink after work or hang out on the weekends.
And I think it's a really nice balance and super important as well
when you're there five days a week.
Do you think, though, is it sometimes hard to switch off or do you
would you say that to varying degrees people are better at it than others or?
It can be hard sometimes, particularly if you've got a super stressful week
or you've got a lot on.
But I think it is important when you're out with work colleagues
to try and have conversations outside of work and have
common interests outside of work as well.
And ultimately, if you get along well with the people you're in a team with,
it's probably because you've got common interests outside of work as well.
So that makes it a bit easier.
Yeah, that's very true, actually.
And I suppose you do better work as well because you're able to bond.
And yeah, exactly.
It's a great bit of teamwork.
And so in recent years, a law firm's culture has emerged
as a crucial factor in workplace satisfaction for lawyers and law graduates.
Now, we're all heard unfortunate stories of young lawyers joining a law firm and struggling
to get in with the culture, which is a real shame because even if the work is engaging,
the experience can be marred if colleagues are not team players
or the environment is not welcoming.
Larissa, how have you found the culture at Hall & Wilcox?
And what are some key things to look out for when trying to gauge a law firm's culture?
I think the culture here is a big reason why I really wanted to come to the firm.
The way that I would describe our culture is that it's really down to earth.
So I work with a really nice group of people.
And that's super important in terms of being good at what you do,
but also enjoying your job.
I'd also say we have a really diverse group of people,
not just in terms of people's backgrounds, but also in their experiences and the way they think.
And that's also really important in, one, delivering good quality work
and being able to improve your skills.
And it just makes for a nicer environment where you're not all the same.
I also think there's a big focus on learning and development.
And for me, that was something that was really important as I was going through
interview process and just making sure that I was somewhere where I felt
I was going to be supported and challenged and would be able to grow in my career.
So as part of the grad program, you'll get assigned a buddy.
You'll also have a mentor and supervising partner throughout the whole process.
And they're basically your first point of call.
So any questions you have.
And I thought it was really nice to be able to have that relationship early on.
So you feel like you've got already a relationship at the firm and someone you can go to.
And I think things like that were really important for me
when I was looking at cultures of different law firms.
And I think it is the relationship.
With perhaps older and more experienced members of the team,
is that something that's obviously there and flourishing?
I mean, obviously, they're usually the most busy people at the firm,
and so they can be hard to get a hold of.
But you would still like, I suppose, ideally to have a relationship
with more senior members of the team or more senior lawyers that can coach you through.
Is that something that is also there?
In terms of just who you interact with, the way work is given,
you can get work from someone who's a year ahead of you
or from a senior associate or a partner.
We don't really have a really hierarchical structure
where you're not having any interaction with your partner.
When you get feedback, it's exactly the same.
They'll bring you into meetings with clients.
They'll get you involved in everything.
So that's been really good in terms of you feel like you're a big part of the team
and you feel like you're building a relationship with the partners you're under from day one.
Well, that's all amazing stuff.
Thank you for listening to the Australian Law Student Podcast.
The following segment is questions from the bench.
Here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better
and to get key advice to help you on your journey.
Each week, we also take a question from you, our audience.
Head over to our socials and send us a message to get your question answered.
Thanks for listening.
We'll now move on to some rapid fire questions.
And then we ask this to all our guests to provide our listeners
perhaps a little bit of insight into who the person is.
And so we'll start off with,
the first question, and that's what was your favorite subject in law school and why?
I think my favorite subject was competition law.
It was actually the last subject I did.
I was really keen on doing M&A work, and that was a good way to kind of understand
the regulatory environment.
And it's actually a subject that I've used as a paralegal and as a grad.
So I think that was my favorite.
That's right. That's really good.
And moving on, what's one habit you believe that's been pivotal to your success in the legal field?
I think one thing that's super important is actively seeking out people who are interested in law.
I think one thing that's super important is actively seeking out feedback on your work.
A lot of the time it will come back to you anyway,
but it's really important to ask questions and understand why your work was changed
so that you can implement those changes next time and learn from your,
not your mistakes, but learn from things and know how you can improve.
Do you have any advice to perhaps lawyers or younger law grads
that perhaps are a little bit intimidated by asking for feedback from an older lawyer?
Is it just, do you got to bite the bullet and do it?
Yeah, you really do.
And to be honest, it's never a bad thing.
To ask for feedback, it's going to show that you're interested and you want to improve
and people will make the time to give you feedback because it also benefits the team.
If you can do something quicker and better next time, it's a good outcome for everything.
So it's really encouraged and yeah, you just have to do it.
Can you name a book or a movie that's significant to you and one you'd recommend to students?
It's not very highbrow, but I'm going to say Legally Blonde.
I just think that's a great law movie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In the realm of legal movies, that's definitely up there, I think is a real fun one.
Moving on, for students aspiring to make an impact in the world,
what skill or quality do you believe is the most important for them to develop?
I think something that's really important is to have resilience.
No matter what you're doing, you're going to face challenges and obstacles.
And if you can be able to persevere through those, particularly if it's something you're passionate about,
that's going to allow you to make a long lasting impact in whatever you end up doing.
Definitely, definitely resilience.
And I suppose, not to make it a job interview, you can absolutely decline, but is there any
times that you think that you can remember in your process that perhaps you've had to
show a bit of resilience and have to do that?
Yeah, definitely.
I think we're doing, I've come into doing completely different areas of law where you
don't know anything.
And sometimes when you get feedback or you don't do a great job at something, that can
But I think instead of looking at as a negative, taking that and seeing how you can improve,
and then using that in the future.
And basically just persevering is super important.
To not become disheartened.
And so did you always envision yourself practicing in the field that you did and if not, what
did you think you do?
Perhaps, I definitely know a lot of people that straight out of high school, they thought
they were going to do something.
And then halfway through uni, they've then changed and then even again, they've changed.
What's that process?
I never expected I would do law, particularly I never thought I would do corporate law.
I studied communications at uni as well and really liked that and thought I would probably
do something in that field or something more creative in general.
It wasn't until I actually started working as a paralegal when I was like, oh, I love
this and this is what I want to do long term.
But I never thought I'd be here.
And so at the start, so what did you think you'd do something in communications?
Yeah, my major was digital and social media.
So I was doing a lot of that.
I was doing a lot of web design and app design as well, which I really liked doing something
a bit more hands on and creative.
So I thought I was going to go down.
Do you think at law firms, do you have an opportunity to be?
I mean, especially right now you're on the podcast, so there are opportunities to be
creative even in law.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, you have to be creative even in the way you think it doesn't matter what you're
We, for example, have a smarter law program, which is all about utilizing technology and
innovation to change the way that we do things.
One of our grads is a fantastic coder and is great at I.T. and he's been able to use
all of those skills to assist the way that he does his legal work.
So there's a bunch of opportunities to do.
And I think the evolution of law right now, I mean, I think a lot of people are perhaps
one of their greatest fears that they'll become sort of robotic and just really be, you know,
in a little office cubicle or whatever, just just churning out legal documents or whatever.
But that's really promising to hear that there is an opportunity to be creative and to actually
really problem solve, because I think that's that's where a lot of people get interest
And in saying that you can use technology to, you know, get those tasks that aren't
In a more efficient way.
And then you can focus on the things that are more exciting and that you're really interested
Yeah, that's great.
Moving on to the next question.
What's the greatest piece of advice that you've ever received?
I think the best piece of advice I've ever received is to always ask questions and to
always ask why it doesn't matter what you're working on.
It's super important to understand why you're doing something or the context that's involved.
I also think it's not only going to allow you to do better quality work, but it shows
that you have a real interest in what you're doing.
And that you really want to improve and learn as well.
I think asking questions is, again, another really, really key piece of advice for a lot
And a lot of people I've spoken to have said that exact same thing.
I think it's the ability to open up your mind to the options and to what you're doing wrong
and that sort of stuff and really ask for that.
In your opinion, is there such thing as a stupid question?
I don't think there is.
I often lead with my questions as this is probably stupid, but you know, then you'll get the
response that no, it's not.
No, there's no such thing as stupid.
It's always better to ask than not, I think.
And so, we'll move on to a question now from one of our listeners, and this one comes in
Does it matter where you study to get into law or corporate law?
More specifically, would it be okay to study in a different state and apply for perhaps
graduate programs in another?
In terms of where you study, I don't think it matters at all.
I have people in my cohort who have studied all over Australia.
I think it's more about what you take away from your university experience.
It's the same thing with applying for grad programs.
We have people that are from Melbourne.
I know in other states, they have people from other parts of Australia.
I think as long as you can give a commitment that's passed the grad program and show you're
committed to staying in the state that you're applying for, then it's not a problem at all.
I think I've definitely witnessed that as well, just in my own life and talking to people.
Increasingly, we're seeing people in Sydney and Melbourne and even Brisbane and Dundas.
We're seeing people in WA and in South Australia as well.
Lawyers are really up and moving to different places to really experience what Australia
has to offer, I suppose.
In different lifestyles.
A really big national firm like Holland Wilcox, I imagine, is really good at that.
They've got offices in several locations.
It's definitely a good benefit.
I was in Melbourne a few weeks ago, and it's nice just to be able to meet the people that
you're working with and have the option to-
That was another question I was going to ask.
What sort of cross-state sort of work are you doing?
Are you working with teams in Melbourne and in Brisbane?
It really depends on the team.
I think some teams have a much more national practice than others.
In my experience in the corporate teams, in every team I've rotated through, I've worked
with people in the Melbourne office or the Brisbane office, which is really nice because
people have different matters that they're working on, different focuses for their practice
area, and it's just a nice way to meet new people as well.
It's definitely something you can move to that state if you want to work for that branch
of Horland Wilcox.
It's definitely something you can raise.
I think it obviously depends on resourcing and if there's a position available, but it
has been done for sure, and if it's something you're interested in and bring up, if it works
out, they could definitely make it work for you.
I suppose just a final question from me.
What has been one key experience perhaps that you've felt at Horland Wilcox that's really
stood out to you and been a real-
What has been a sort of legacy moment, I think?
I think in our first week, all the national grads, we had an induction in Melbourne for
That was really cool because it was my first work trip, and it felt like, wow, I'm really-
So you travelled down to Melbourne.
... doing this and-
... starting my career.
That was really nice.
I think we had about 55 grads in our cohort, so to have us all together was really special
It was kind of just, you felt like you were about to start something that you'd been working
I think that's something that's really-
How long was that induction?
You got to see the Melbourne offices, obviously-
... and get yourselves some stuff.
I feel like that's not something you usually hear.
That's definitely something that you hear-
We were super lucky.
That's definitely something that's very exclusive to Horland Wilcox.
We've reached about the end point of the podcast, so Larisse, thank you so much for joining
with me today, and all the best for the upcoming year and the rest of your career.
We're looking forward to speaking to you again soon.
Thank you so much for having me.