Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond and welcome
to our first episode for 2024. In today's episode, we're honoured to have with us New South Wales
State Labor MP, Dr Hugh McDermott. Now before I introduce Dr McDermott, just a quick disclaimer.
The Australian Law Student Podcast is by no means politically affiliated and strives for
political neutrality, engaging with politicians from all parties to explore diverse legal
perspectives. Later on in the year, we will continue to interview politicians from all
areas and we believe it is up to you as listeners to form your own beliefs and opinions on the areas
of law discussed. Now back to the introduction. Before entering New South Wales Parliament in
2015 for the relatively new electorate of prospect, Dr McDermott graduated with a PhD
in laws from King's College London and a postgraduate law degree from both the University
of Technology Sydney and the University of Sydney. He spent his prior years as an Australian workers
union lawyer and barrister along with an array of other jobs. He's now the secretary to the New
South Wales Attorney-General and he brings a wealth of experience to this episode. So without
a further ado, enjoy the show. Thank you, Hugh McDermott, for joining me today on the Australian
Law Student Podcast. How are you? Very good, Oliver. Thank you very much for inviting me this
morning. Thank you. I suppose we'll dive straight into our first question. Your path to becoming a
politician, transitioning from a law student and barrister, is far from traditional. You
know, your diverse experiences range from working as a jackaroo in central Queensland
and a barman at the Whitsundays to serving in the Australian Defence Force. The best
part of my career, by the way. Definitely working behind a bar in the Whitsundays. Hamilton
Island it was. Oh, okay. So yes, very busy nights. Yeah. Very good. Well, it's certainly
one of the most beautiful locations to be a bartender. Absolutely. Yeah. So from the
Australian Defence Force and the Australian Workers Union, your journey challenges a
more commonly held idea that you need to have a straightforward career path to look for.
In high school, law school, law firm, you know, that sort of three-step method. Can you share
what sparked your interest in politics and can you give some insight into your career journey?
Yeah, sure. Certainly. Yeah, it wasn't that traditional. I mean, it's not so much traditional
anymore. I mean, there was the time when you'd go to private school and you'd go into college at
Sydney University and then you go on there into the bar or to daddy's law firm. Very different
thing. And you know, you are a full time lawyer. There's still that, of course. And
there's nothing wrong with that. You know, you're lucky. But a lot of people throughout
New South Wales from different backgrounds now are practicing lawyers and do very, very
well on the judiciary, on the benches, etc. I came from quite a modest background. I didn't
particularly like school. It was okay. I enjoyed certain subjects like English and history.
But, you know, I didn't go to a school where people went to university. I don't think anybody
from my year 12 went to university. They went to TAFE, went to trades. Felt more comfortable
in some of these other places. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunities here.
I think someone did pretty good at law school, and some were really big at the university. And
went to trades went to the army but very few went to university I can't imagine I can't actually
think of anybody who did and of course as like you said I worked as a jackaroo in central Queensland
I worked behind a bar up in the Whitsundays moved around and and it was having and then time in the
military but it was this exposure to low-paid jobs often exploited by employers not only of myself
but seeing others exploited and pushed me more and more towards labour politics towards trade
unionism and there are many workers today that you know the workforce has changed they don't
necessarily need trade unions they could they have their own their own self they have their
own power base but a lot of blue-collar workers a lot of refugees a lot of people have come into
this community over the many years do need trade unions so that's what pushed me towards that and
of course that then led me towards the law as well because the law
is is the one thing in our society that can really help working people help those who are
vulnerable and I guess that's what led me to that in regards to politics I end up going down and got
a bit of a scholarship to just study at the University of New England and I went down there
and I was a student wasn't involved in politics was involved in the law and the tenement square
massacre happened in China other side of the world you could say
but I was sat watching it as a 19 year old 20 year old student watching these students standing up
to totalitarian regime and being killed for doing it and I had a lot of Chinese friends who were
post-grad students over from China at the university and I went up to see the president of
the SRC I said look I'd like to raise money I'd like to do something to help these students here
and they've got family back there and that the gentleman was a I would say a political extremist
it's any way you could describe it because he sat there explaining to me why they were doing this
and how the tenement square massacre was justified and how it was for the greater good and I walked
out of that office at 19 and thought I don't know what I have to do to get rid of him but that person
doesn't represent me so he doesn't represent other students on this campus and I ran for student
politics I won I got into the SRC I challenged the president and I beat him at the election and
then that went on and that was my beginning I wasn't in any political party I just wanted to do
what was right and I thought what represented the students on campus with me and then we went to the
next election and I won everything I won the whole the whole SRC I did that for two years but that was
my beginning in politics I then moved down to Sydney and the early 90s now and I was in my early
20s and I'd met a man called Terry Sheen who some may know but he was the first attorney general in
my in um the Iran government and he went on to become a judge and other things he's just recently
and I met him didn't know much about Labor politics and he said oh you should come and
think about joining the Labor Party and I said oh okay I'll come down and have a talk to you anyway
the rest is history I joined up and got involved and it all went from there well thanks so much
for sharing um I suppose many students including those including our listeners are familiar with
an eager to make a positive impact in the world and they see politics as a way to achieve this
um in your role as parliamentary secretary to the attorney general of New South Wales
how has your legal background been beneficial and additionally what motivated you I suppose
you spoke a little bit about your motivations to join the Labor Party in relation to the perhaps
um miss um the sort of mistreatment of workers throughout your time um is that something that
you still see today is a as a big problem in New South Wales um and sort of what um
things do you think that you do to address those issues yeah okay the the law is very important um
in any profession I think and I think it's one of the few degrees that you should do no matter what
you want to be in life um it's it trains you in um you know attention to detail crafting an argument
um based on reason um and evidence and we don't have enough of that in politics you know Donald
Trump's the prime example you know he just makes up the facts as he goes along and and you see
other politicians do that it's not just him but he's probably the most well-known example at the
table you know if you can't give a a reasoned argument backed up with evidence in your essays
or you know in your tutorials and that you fail so you need to do it well and the better you can
do that understanding of doing that the better you also understand legislation because you need
to you understand case law um and you know and what the role of the different arms of government
is and you'll learn that even even the first couple of years of law school not that I'm
postgrad so I think that's important so it's a very good foundation for politics and unlike
um the myths there's not that many lawyers in politics because okay politicians are paid okay
but if compared to say a partner in a big law firm or a silk you know and that they make a lot more
money and in fact when I came um into politics I made a clear decision with my family that I was
going to do this because we knew my my salary would drop right I wouldn't be earning the money
I'd be at the bar and so but that was a conscious decision because I wanted to make a difference
um very much so in regards to um exploitation of workers yes it still happens we still have an
issue with modern slavery and things like that and I've been very involved with that legislation
which we put through in New South Wales we're the only country now which or the only state that has
a modern slavery commissioner they started off having one in the UK and he worked fairly well
and then she but you know it's been really cut down by the current Tory government over there
um we we made sure that
eventually it took many years to get legislation through in New South Wales that we have a modern
slavery commissioner we see exploitation particularly of um people have been trafficked we
see exploitation of you know menial jobs blue collar type jobs still to this day in different
areas like construction and that um but also in the laundries and all different type of areas like
that so that's still an issue and it was you know my experience with all that that that led me along
those lines to being
a social Democrat because that's I see myself as a moderate middle ground um I think that my
experience when I was in the SRC was dealing with extremists um is you know and I use that
word I don't use it lightly because there are those extremists and we see them just recently
with those that group that came up from Melbourne were marching with masks on you know around
Australia and date from the far right you know the far right far left where they're coming from
you know there's no real place for them in Australia I don't think and
for dialogue this place for debate etc but not for extremism like that and I
think that's what gravitated me towards the Labour Party because it was very
much a social democratic and social justice point of view I mean everything
I do in fact that social justice and you know I'm a Catholic so that you get
taught if you're Catholic a lot of Catholic social justice fortunately not
all Catholics get involved in that but those are the ones who do I mean I think
it's quite important as a foundation and so I'm spoke a little bit about the
a little bit about the UK and so your journey obviously began university
journey being at the University of New England and then the University of
Sydney but you also spent some time over at the King's College yeah over in
London yeah how was that experience so my journey was I started doing a UNE and
I did politics and economic history up there I came down to Sydney I hadn't
quite finished that degree I was looking for a job
and I was looking for a job and I was looking for a job and I was looking for a job
because I was working all the way through and then I got I was a trade union
official and I did quite well as a trade union official and it was suggested I go
to law school I went to UTS did quite well and then I went on to a master's at
Sydney and then I got a number of scholarships and went across to King's
College in London and did a PhD in law looking at the the impact that
globalization had on law reform in Australia especially during the Hawke-Keating years
when we opened the economy we changed a lot of things we got rid of the white
Australia policy well and truly and all the old immigration policies that were
racist basically and embraced Asia especially under Keating so that that
gave me a massive experience and I really encourage anybody who can go and
study for a time overseas when I was at UTS we went over to to Beijing for a
period of time did a subject there I mean I know that pretty much all law
schools have such exchanges you know but I think it's really important that you
do it do it it's an amazing experience but if you can go into a postgraduate
masters or something else overseas no matter where it is it's it's a great
experience thank you for listening to the Australian law student podcast the
following segment is questions from the bench here we ask our guests a set
series of questions designed for you to get to know them better and to get key
advice to help you on your journey each week we also take a question from you
our audience head over to our socials and send us a message to get your
question answered thanks for listening
okay these questions um we sort of used to try and make our guests a bit more
personable and let our listeners get to you a bit more on a personal level so
I'll start for the first one what was your favorite subject in law school okay
my favorite subjects in law school with international economic law international
trade law I haven't used them a great deal but there were great subjects and
there was a lot of moots and stuff involved in those subjects so you had to
really craft your argument in your advocacy but I should talk about the one
I hated the most right which was contract law I hated contract law and I
failed it first year right so okay I've got honors in my degrees I've got a PhD
in law one of the top law schools in the world but I failed contract law and I
could not believe it I hated this subject with a passion and so I remember
and one of the things at the time that the classes I was working full-time so I
couldn't make it to all the tutes so they marked me down for that and so I
was so angry as you can imagine I was so angry as you can imagine I was so angry as you can imagine
next year came back yeah HD right I made sure I did that and I had a different
teacher the second time and I complain and complain and complain to her all
throughout the semester and then I go to King's PhD you know can't wait the
supervisors the professors come to me and says we're going to have you teach
law this year I went wonderful we're probably about five or six classes oh
wonderful says want you to teach contract law so I taught contract law
from I ran from hating it to actually being able to teach contract law and I
actually really liking it now but all back then but it was it was the thing and
my professor at UTS rang me up when he found out that I was teaching contract
law and just paid out right so anyway so that's the story about myself that's a
great story I suppose about contracts and I think I think a lot of students
are at that point right now whether doing contracts I know you want to stop
yeah yeah it permeates everything in the law and they might be hiding it now as
you progressed through a matter what you actually area you really enjoy you'll
find that the contracts permeate everything you do and that offer acceptance something else it's
in everything yeah and so you'll you'll get to that point once you get through it thank you so
much um moving on to the next question what's one habit you believe has been pivotal to your success
in the legal field and i suppose in the political field as well i think there's two things one um
is the fact that your attention to detail you have to have attention to detail as a lawyer
now whether you law that learn that law school or college of law or wherever you go in your firm
wherever that attention detail is so important in politics if you mess up the attention to detail
you make a wrong comment wrong figures the opposition is going to slam you or the public
will slam you and good for them doing that but you know if you want to embarrass yourself make
that mistake right so attention to detail is important the other thing which i think is quite
important is that you've got to remember that the law doesn't work in a vacuum we have a lot of
black letter lawyers who say oh you've got to do what's on the page and i don't quite agree with
that in most cases because you know
when the laws are put through parliament when they're interpreted by the judiciary they look
at the bigger picture you may find when you have certain amount of advocacy before a judge
especially in criminal matters they're looking at the evidence which is right in front of them
but nearly every area of law you're working in a bigger picture you know in the world of what's
going on and particularly when you're dealing with legislation politicians or the push through
legislation that has an impact on the wider world and they've written it for a real reason that'll
have an impact on the world and often you'll see that in the second reading speeches
but that needs to it's very important to keep in mind that whatever you're doing it's not in a
vacuum you have to realize what the impact may have in the rest of the to everything else around you
in the community well those are two really great tips um and i think it's important to acknowledge
that as well um i think a lot of people um at times when they're going through law school they
can certainly view it in a way which is um supposed to be very legalistic and very black
letter um and i think these greater policy considerations and sort of the impact on
society and looking at something like the second reading speech i think it's very helpful for being
for judges being able to implement the law in the way it was intended and the way that is in
um in the context of the greatest society well certainly when i was doing my phd i had to review
out hundreds of pieces of legislation and one of the keys to really understanding was looking at
that second reading speech and then obviously how it's been interpreted by the judiciary but you
know this idea of a black letter judge or a black lawyer it's true to a point and yeah and i think
that if it's been done a certain way it's been interpreted in a way that's not the case in the
case but it's been done a certain way and there's the interpretation which has been clear when the
attorney general or whoever it is who's put it through has said that's true how it should be
followed but if you're looking at legislation it must reflect the modernizing society and so it
may have been come into into into enacted 20 or 30 years ago well you've got to look at how it is
today and we've seen those issues with the sentencing for example especially with child
sexual assault and other things like that so you know you need to balance that you know what it
actually is and what it's going to do for us and i think that's a really important thing to
needs it needs to basically reflect your society and the expectation of your society has to be as
i say you know has to be in such justice has to be seen and done and that's what you got to do
in your interpreting law i think yeah yeah well um so let's move on to a little bit of a life topic
um can you name a book or a movie that's uh been significant to you and why don't you recommend
okay so this was a very hard question when you suggested it to me because i've read that many
books and if you look around here you'll see a lot of books in my office so you can't see that
but there are if anyone from any of your listeners come on to come and visit harm at any time i'm
always open to a visit um but i have hundreds of books at home hundreds of books in the electorate
office but i've got it down to five okay and they're not necessarily legal books okay so
firstly um john steinbeck's the great of wrath right great book great about labor values and
and fighting for the underclass you know in the united states during the depression
george orwell now everyone goes not they all know 1984 and animal farm and you know it's all
popular yeah it's great great books but my favorite book was homage to catalonia and it's
when he goes across as a journalist to fight against fascism right in spain wasn't popular
at the time big divisions in europe whether you should support what was going on with franco and
that and but he decided he put his neck on the line and go and fight fascism and he was quite
effective and the thing was he was a very good journalist and he was a very good journalist
but what was really interesting and really interesting to me is that he didn't have any
big themes and that's why he ended up going on the blacklist for the fascists and the nazis so
that's quite a quite a role of honor i think but stalin also hated him as well so he was on the
blacklist for the communists as well so here's this going between both and i think as a social
democrat that's probably quite a good thing in those days not today so much but in those days
because it showed that you know he was a true democrat and he believed in what he was doing
and that was to try and create democracy and freedom for the people of spain so that's a great
there's a book written by a woman called Susanna Short it's about her father called Laurie Short
and it's called A Political Life and it's a he was a trade unionist in the 1950s and 60s
in Sydney on the dockyards and that's a really good that was quite an inspiration and in my
office you'll see there's a picture of Laurie Short up here that he'd sign and give it and
comment to him and I used to go and talk to Laurie quite a lot Russo's The Social Contract
I based a lot of my PhD on that and that was a really great it's a great read and it talks about
the relationship between the people and the government and that social contract which is
so important and you know it was written you know a couple hundred years ago now but it's still
relevant today and finally John Stuart Mill's On Liberty you know the rights of the individual now
I'm a trade unionist I believe in trade unionism but I also believe the rights of an individual
to express who they want to be and achieve what they want to achieve and so I think Mill's book
is quite good so there's my top five well thanks so much thank you so much for that and I suppose
aspiring to make an impact in the world what's perhaps a skill or a quality I don't know if you
can give perhaps a generic one or do you believe it's most important for them to develop
I think perseverance you know you're going to have a lot of challenges no matter who you are
what your background is you know life's not easy especially in your late teens and your 20s when
you're studying when you're not necessarily having an income you know you're trying to find your way
in the world and law school's challenging and it's meant to be I don't believe any
who says they think law school is easy there are certain subjects which are easier and we always
know those ones and try and do them but there's a lot of challenges which you need to get through
and especially when you finish the school and then you need to go on to perhaps find into practice
so perseverance I also one thing I always tell people listen to the advice of a person that
knows what they're talking about everybody wants to give you advice on things in their opinions
and half the time they have no idea what they're talking about look at the person and say okay is
that person successful is that person successful in the area which I'm needing to get this advice
from if they are then listen to them if they're not don't right and so that I think that's key
and you know I think also finally the thing that you really need to develop is being able to relate
to people to develop an empathy with people and I think that's quite important and that will do
well not only in law school but also in legal career
or any other career which you go to that empathy is extremely important
I suppose a soft skill like empathy is something that is perhaps a bit overlooked
it is people there's some people who just have no empathy and I see in law yeah we once again
we just think oh it's living in a vacuum you know you're looking like this but also outside you know
you you don't have to you know have a bit of bleeding heart and I'm no bleeding heart but
you've got to have empathy you have people who think well you know they're going it tough you
got to try and understand it and you know
you in if you have an understanding of where people are coming from you'll be a better lawyer
you'll be a better person in my opinion well thanks so much for that and i suppose um we'll
go on to our um third last question uh did you always envision yourself practicing in the field
you do um and if not what did you think you'd do um that's when you were i think i kind of did
um you know i was kind of interested in politics i was over no political party i was kind of
interested in the law but i really wasn't sure because i went to a school that no one went to
university much and the only experience you had with law a lot of the time from students was if
they were getting arrested or something like that to be honest having problems so a lot of them
became queensland police officers because i grew up in queensland um it it was so but in a way it
did because i wanted to make a difference i didn't want to have a job that just was just another job
i wanted to do something that actually made a difference and would be remembered but also
i could think make the world
a better place i wanted to be that since i was a teenager um and then as i got more experience
working you know different jobs and that um i wanted to protect the marginalized and i think
that human rights and and protecting those the most vulnerable has always been what was part of
me and i certainly wasn't brought up that way by the family or anything like that it was just how
i became and i i grew up i think and because i came from a modest background i knew what it was
i saw people struggling and who i didn't think should be struggling and especially in australia
a place like australia that there needs to be safety nets there needs to be you know that that
help for people that support now not not you know throwing money away but helping people you know
making sure they can build their lives and because you know people go through all kinds of challenges
um and so they should be that should be understood and the government and and each other as a
community were there to help each other and so i think i think that the law
was very much the way i practiced that right as that became the foundations to help me get there and
achieve the aim of helping people yeah yeah i suppose this idea of sort of a quality of opportunity
for people especially people that perhaps are marginalized or in sort of um type of situation
is really um i think um important to see that and to try and strive towards that yeah and you can do
that in the law and still make lots of money right you can still be a corporate litigator and
or a merchant or a banking lawyer and that and still do good things and work with people i mean
you know banks need lawyers you know big companies need lawyers they do okay and
there's nothing wrong if you love that area law go and do it knock yourself out it's fantastic
but keep in mind that you shouldn't be exploiting people yeah and that you know you're making a
decent income so why not use some of that to help people all right and give it back and even if it's
just your time and you and i see that time and time again you'll go to down to the bottom of the
vinnies to down to to darlinghurst or willamaloo and that where they have the the mobile food van
and the homeless and you have people on there who are partners in big firms who are making big money
but they'll stay all night and i'll help people any way they can um and you don't just see it
because oh they're doing it tick a box they do it because they believe in it um and you see that
when you go overseas in in aid programs and you know it's if you have that opportunity you give
back and you help those who are the most vulnerable but also you know if there are people you know
once you get there who um you know need a hand up at law school or support or something you help
each other now i never thought i would go and you know to a phd in london or you know be an
i was in or i'd be so successful as a lawyer i know what i wanted to be but it was those people
who had been just like me 20 30 years before who went on to become judges or partners or
silks who turned around and said i'll give you a hand and give you advice and there's plenty of
those people who will do that for you in the legal profession well thanks
so much and i suppose on the topic of advice um is there a greatest piece of advice you've ever
seen and who gave it to you what was the content it's a piece of advice which i know my staff
i say to ad nauseum especially those who are legally trained and i noticed i see
caitlin from the works of my office is smiling at me um it says there's two types of lawyers
in the world and this is the advice i got from a guy called conrad staff who has retired as a
judge now but he was a partner in his firm and they did a lot of work for the awu and i went
through obviously the law firm and i did a lot of work for the awu and i went through obviously the
law school and i got advice from him and when i finished at law school i had to go and spend
some time with him because he was a supervising partner and the first piece of advice he gave me
is there's two types of lawyers in the world one you'll go to and they will and you'll say what
your problem is and they will tell you why you can't do something they'll tell you all that the
problems are and why it can't be achieved and the second type will listen to your problem and say
okay so what do you want to achieve and they'll listen to you and they'll go right i will find
the legal way of doing it be the second type of lawyer not the first there's too many of the first
types of lawyers and i see i've seen them all throughout my career and they're the people you
want i want to spend because it's that's the easy cop out oh you can't do it legislation says this
that look at it and be creative because the law is creative a good argument a good a good um a good
draft paper a good advocacy before a judge or whoever really works and that's how the law
look at your client's problem and say okay what can i do to make their life better what can i do
how can i move it don't break the law you don't need to break the law there's always a way around
around it and the law if you use your mind the right way and you use the argument um and the
second piece is that it was another very good piece of advice when i was trying to become a
member of parliament i had to go through pre-selection and it was a really big fight
because there are people there's only there's only you know less than 100 of us in the
parliament the lower house so it's a big fight everyone wants to be here right um and it was
pretty rough pretty rough on your family and it was a senator um deb o'neill who said to me
look make a decision how bad do you want this if you want it bad enough keep going no matter
what happens right and you'll get there and it was a great piece of advice because i put my head
down i did that and here i am today you know yeah
it's it's more than just hunger um because everyone is hungry for it but you've got to
decide okay am i prepared you know to to work those extra hours do all that extra time to make
to dawn up all those houses to talk to all those people to do whatever i have to do to get this
done and it doesn't and also not knowing you may we may not win the end but you give it your
everything right and and make sure you try and win it well thank you so much for that that's
that's some brilliant advice
um finally um the final question that we have is one from our listeners this one's from ethan
um sav from unsw um there tends to be a commonly accepted view that lawyers make good politicians
as a person who studied postgraduate law how much of the motivation behind studying law can you
attribute to your political ambitions and can you make a comment more generally on
lawyers and perhaps politicians well the thing about politics it's a great deal of risk involved
okay um you may get in you may not um you know
you may have an outstanding political career and then bang it'll end tomorrow because of something
that happened or something that someone said or some mistake you made with the amount of
realize you're making it and i think the parrot paraphrase what keating said that all great
political um careers ended failure or catastrophe or something like that you know you're not kidding
you would have said something like that and he's pretty right apart from bob carr i don't know any
other politician who didn't who really went out on their own their own emissions i mean uh most there's
too many of us throughout the world sometimes there's too many on this planet so once there's
someone given you a leading position and and they're like this is the best STEPHANIE
there it definitely is because if someone doesn't stand up you don't stand up and parts the
they you I've been a feminist
Not always easy, but it gives you that professional safety net.
And also, if you don't get into politics, if you don't get elected
or you don't win your pre-selection, it's always still there.
And that's part of the reason.
You've got that trade, you could say, to keep going.
And it doesn't mean that it can't stop you doing politics,
but you've got it there.
So I think that foundation is good.
It teaches you the law how to craft an argument, and that's good.
And if you're a good lawyer, if you're a good law student,
you've got that argument, you've got those opinions
that are always backed up with evidence, you'll do well.
You'll do well because you'll get in the chamber
or you'll get anywhere and they'll be having a go at you
under usually a lot of tense stress and stuff like that,
and you'll just flick it past because you've got your foundation,
One of the key things, don't give an opinion unless you can back it up.
I remember I taught this when I was teaching contract law at King's.
Never give me an argument.
Or a reason, that hasn't been reasoned, and you can't back it up
because too many people in the world go,
oh, I read that in the telly, so I'll say it.
Or some guy at the pub said this.
No, no, you back it up.
And if you can't, be quiet.
So I think that's key.
And I think, finally, that certainly in government,
all policy should be based on evidence and objective and pragmatic.
It's all good and fine to say, oh, I want to achieve this,
well, okay, you want to achieve that, how do we make it happen, right?
Is there evidence to make it happen?
Like, can we support what we're saying?
And what impact will it have?
And so that's extremely important.
And that only works well in parliament and in policy for government,
but also probably any job you have or any argument you have.
Especially in law and being a law student,
I imagine a lot of law students are probably a little bit heartbroken
to hear that because they hate the AGLC references.
So much, but it's important, though, to back these things up and especially
to get, yeah, to do well in your courses and to have these opinions and these arguments.
But yeah, well, thanks so much for sitting down with me and talking to me today.
That's about all we have time for.
So thank you very much and yeah, all the best.
Thank you, Oliver.