Hello and welcome back to the Australian Law Student Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond
and in this episode I had the pleasure of speaking with Cale Manane, a JD student at
UNSW. Cale is a young father of three and has recently completed a clerkship at King & Wood
Mallesons. It was great to talk to him about his journey into the law and discuss how he
juggles study, supporting a young family and building his career. If you're keen to hear
a fresh, real and diverse perspective on breaking into the legal profession, this is an episode
you don't want to miss. Are you a law student applying for clerkships this year? You're not
alone. Get free access to GradIQ's Law Clerkship Toolkit containing detailed firm profiles,
clerkship lists and CV and cover letter templates. Want to go further? The GradIQ Academy pairs you
one-on-one with mentors who've got offers from Linklaters, Allens and White & Case. You'll get
tailored CV feedback, mock interviews and advanced networking and commercial awareness prep.
The best part? You only pay if you land an offer.
Head to gradiq.com.au to learn more.
Thank you, Cale, so much for joining me today to talk about your experience,
share your experience as a young father, as a law student at UNSW. I'll start off with
my first question. What led you in particular to come to UNSW to relocate from WA with a
young family? You did a bachelor's degree back there. And I suppose, what was the sort of
reasoning behind coming to UNSW and relocating?
So, yeah, originally, yeah, from regional WA, I moved up to Perth for a while and did my bachelor's
degree there. Lived and worked in Perth and had our first daughter up there before coming back
down to Albany, so south coast of Western Australia. And we loved it there. We always will. But I think
we were kind of, we're looking for one more adventure before we properly set our roots down
and kind of established our lives.
And it was around that time I was applying for some various degrees. I was working in
finance at the time, financial adjacent role. And I was going to head off to Canberra and
do a master's in financial management. And when I was putting through my applications,
I started looking into law and thinking about this side of things as well. It was something
that I'd never considered in my life up until that point, to be honest. And had a good look
and taught myself as much as I could about it.
And then, yeah, I put in.
I did some applications for the JD programs here in Sydney. I was fortunate to get a CSP offer here at UNSW,
which is a huge factor that kind of swung me this way. And yeah, came across to Sydney also because I have
family here. My brother's here with his three kids as well. So a big part of it as well.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's, I think as well with having children, did that impact your decision
to pursue the law?
Yeah, I think in a way I knew what I was kind of getting in for. It's a tough degree.
And there's no way around that. But yeah, having kids, I think it was more that we wanted
to show our children that you can kind of take on anything if you want to. You shouldn't
reserve yourself to the hand you're dealt kind of mentality is what we were hoping to
get out of it. And I think it's really shown in our children as well so far how resilient
they are and how they've adapted to the move. And so, yeah, that was a big factor in terms
of relocating generally.
In terms of studying law specifically, it was something more on a personal end. It was
something that I figured I'd be interested in and that suited me well. And so, yeah,
pursued it for those reasons.
Yeah, I don't know. I'm friends with people who, mothers and fathers might have been sort
of bankers or people in finance that often move jobs quite around. People who live in
Singapore and then Dubai over their childhood and stuff like that and go to international
schools. Some of them love it a lot.
You've got on the other side, I suppose, people who believe that, you know, and it's probably
backed, I think, by the sort of more mainstream following that, you know, you have a house
that you live in, you have a house that you buy, you live in that until your children
are adults and things like that. Obviously, while they're young, there's a bit more room
for that. Is that something, you know, in the future, is that something that you think
will play a bigger impact, the sort of fact that your children are getting older and perhaps
building more roots and things like that in where they live?
Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, our mentality coming in was that we were happy to run around
and to move to different places and see the world and then try and try out as many things
as we could. But I think once my oldest, Molly, is close to high school, I think that's around
that time where it'll be a real priority for us to be established and settled and confident
that we want to stay in one place. Yeah, we've got some time until that point comes. So up
until that point, we're just open to exploring.
Well, yeah, I think that's a great mentality. I think that's a great mentality. Yeah, I think that's a great mentality.
Yeah, I think that's a great mentality. Yeah, I think that's a great mentality. Yeah, I think that's a great mentality.
Yeah, I think that's a great mentality.
And it's really important to have like a, it could have very easily sort of held you
back, I suppose, in that regard. And speaking of, what's sort of, I mean, how old were you
when you made the decision to have kids? And you know, I know personally that you and your
partner are high school sweethearts, they you've known each other for a very long time
ever since you were young adults or teenagers. What was the sort of decision behind to have
children? And right now you're a father of three and a very successful law student as
What was the decision sort of behind that?
Yeah, so we've been together since we were 17 years old,
so it's going on 12 years now, which is a long time.
Yeah, the decision wasn't a light one.
It was something that we talked a lot about.
You know, kids are a priority to us
and something that we were really keen on doing earlier in life than later.
And so we'd been together five or six years at that point in time
when we decided to have Molly,
and it's the best decision I think we've ever made.
It's been fantastic.
Yeah, and with law school and children
and the obligations that both entail,
how do you go around managing that?
You know, if you've got exams coming up
or you've got a swimming carnival you've got to get to
or something of that nature, you know,
is it something that you're constantly juggling?
Is that an added layer of stress, I think,
that you would have that perhaps other law students wouldn't?
Yeah, I think it's definitely a challenging part of studying law
that otherwise wouldn't have been there.
One of my biggest priorities is to always be there for my kids
and to make all the events that I can.
And yeah, in order to achieve that,
I think we've just developed a routine that's quite rigid
in terms of when I can and can't study and when I have to work.
And between managing my time as thoroughly as I can,
I've managed to make it work, which has been good.
But yeah, it's definitely been difficult at times,
especially around exam periods.
There's kind of these two week blocks where inevitably I'm going to be
away more than I'd like to be or staying up much later than I'd like to be.
And I think that's part of part of the balancing act, really.
And with with children in the mix, do you feel that the university
has accommodated you quite well, other systems in place and things like that
that allow you to undertake these sort of parenting obligations
when you need to and things like that?
Yeah, UNSW has been fantastic so far.
I think I've had no issues on the...
...the uni front.
I think at the end of the day, you're still a student and you have
you have your deadlines and your obligations that you have to meet.
In terms of class times, you can always manage to structure them
fairly well to fit in within, you know, general life as well,
which has been really, really good.
So, yeah, it's it's been a great experience so far.
I think there's plenty of parents in the JD cohort that I've seen as well,
which is it was really surprising, to be honest.
I thought I'd be an odd one out, but there's quite a few.
So, yeah, you're far from alone.
Which is a big part of it as well.
You've got that support from your peers, which is cool.
I mean, I mean, personally, I know that you have quite a above standard mark
or mark range that you set yourself, quite a high WAM.
You, and it sounds like the secret to that is, is, is a routine,
is scheduling and time management, especially, you know, in your busy life.
Do you have other systems in place, you know, things like budgeting and things
like that, that you use perhaps that, again, just sort of able to more easily manage the different
obligations that you've got?
Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, coming into a JD program, I think my advice to anyone and especially anyone
that also has children and will be working at the same time is to definitely come in with a budget in mind
and to know where your finances are at and how far you can push it.
It's no, no surprise that if you're going to go back to study when you have a young family,
that you're financially going to go backwards a bit and be prepared for that.
So I'd been working for two or three years full time after my,
undergrad degree, and we'd saved up enough money to sort of facilitate working part time and,
and doing things a bit different over in the Sydney side.
So, yeah, it was definitely a part of it as well as knowing where you're at.
And so you work part time and your partner works full time or part time as well?
I work part time at the moment, three days a week.
I have done for most of my degree.
And then my partner is a teacher by trade.
So she was, she was working relief teaching, which is a good source of income.
And then when my third daughter was born at the start of last year,
she's gone back to being at home as well.
So, yeah, but she'll start teaching again soon, I think, in the next six months.
Yeah, well, yeah, that's, I think, a very important arrangement as well.
I think being there to support each other, support both you and your partner.
I mean, you're studying, obviously, your partner working and things like that.
You're a team at the end of the day.
And I think with that out of, you know,
you're a team at the end of the day, I think, with that out of, you know,
you're a team at the end of the day, I think, with that out of, you know,
you're a team at the end of the day, I think, with that out of, you know,
with that being there, I think it becomes even more difficult, I think,
for things like taking care of kids.
And so, yeah, it's a very, it's very inspirational stuff what you're doing.
I mean, I also want to say congratulations on your recent
clerkship at Kingwood Mallesons.
You've got that sort of on the horizon.
What did you find, how did you find the application process throughout that?
Did you find things like family coming up in
interviews and things like that yeah it was something that um i thought long and hard about
when it came to the interview process it was yeah the clerkship application process generally is
quite challenging i think everyone is well aware of that who's been through it or is anticipating
going through it um in terms of the interview side i didn't bring it up personally although
sometimes it did come up naturally in a conversation and it was uh it was definitely a
talking point i don't think many clerks come through with some children behind them as well
so um yeah i think that definitely made me stand out at times and um but yeah generally it was it
was more a focus on the professional and educational experiences that i have and how that
kind of landed myself to the roles um but yeah it was yeah it's a it's a challenging process for
sure i think anyone that's considering going through it to set aside some time and uh consider
how you're going to go about your applications and where you should apply to and have some long
hard thoughts about those things because um yeah it couldn't
can really set yourself up in terms of your future career so sure yeah i mean i suppose it would
have been a testament to your hard working and diligent nature i suppose when it came up so
that's a like i think it would have been a very big uh green tick on on in your area um
in your application um and i suppose what what what were you most looking forward to i think
at the clerkship stage and what were you most looking forward to i think with um in the
law enforcement um in the law enforcement um in the law enforcement um in the law enforcement
sort of post-study are you looking at building um you know is commercial law something that
seriously interests you um for the long term or is it you sort of um uh you know obviously families
in the mix there and and other sorts of things what's the what's the um horizon uh for kale
yeah no it's a good question uh i think as as far as i understand my current situation and
uh the things that i'm interested in i'm definitely keen on commercial law it's something i'd
be keen to pursue and one of the the big upsides of the
um clerkship process i think for everyone is that you get to to really get a good look inside of
what the day-to-day work is um and uh and whether or not it's for you i think for some people they
might go through that process and jump out the other side and look for other things but for me
personally it's definitely uh it's a key priority um it's where i see myself heading for now um and
so yeah i'm going to pursue that one as far as i can and i imagine family's a very big motivator
oh huge yeah absolutely yeah it's a big motivator for me to provide for my family it's um
something that i take very seriously so yeah that's also component of it for sure and um do you
think that being a parent in law school has shaped or um framed um the law in in a certain way do you
think that it's it's changed you as a person i think the experience of yeah going through law
school as a parent definitely definitely has for sure um yes one of the most challenging things
i've ever been through and it's certainly the same for my partner as well it's been
definitely has changed how we look at life and where we're heading and all those things in it so
um but yeah generally i think it's been a positive experience it's taught us what we're capable of
and and what we can achieve together as a team so um yeah it's been plenty of learning experience
along the way it's amazing advice okay i'll move on to the standard questions that we ask all of
our guests now um first question is what was your favorite subject uh what has been your favorite
subject in law school and why yeah
tough question oh i would say i enjoyed criminal law off the get-go um sure probably the most i
think coming into law school it's what i associated the law the most with um and naturally the the
kind of subject matter you deal with is fascinating um i have a background in neuroscience and
psychological sciences so the the reasons why people do things is always something that's kind
of at the forefront of my mind and criminal law is um is one thing that i thoroughly enjoyed on
just reading and learning about the processes we have in place to deal with
sort of the fringes of society and what goes on there so um i would say yeah crim is definitely
one of them yeah and when you came into law school did you do you have a completely open
mind or did you kind of have an idea that that commercial law was the area that you'd end up or
what was the like did doing criminal practicing criminal law ever ever cross your mind yeah no
it definitely did i came in completely um yeah with no expectations about where i'd end up um
as i mentioned before briefly i hadn't considered studying law at any point in my life until i was
about 24 years old so i didn't know much about law i didn't know much about commercial law even
more so so coming in it was it was definitely something i was taking as it came um yeah on
the criminal side i think i've sort of ruled that out due to the subject matter as um as something
that i don't know if i'd be cut out for handling in a professional kind of capacity so um yeah that
was one of the big factors i think you have to be
pretty strong and emotionally resilient person to go down that route now absolutely yeah i don't
know if it was for me yeah for sure so what's one habit you believe has been pivotal to your
success as a law student i'd say cliched as it is time management has been uh the biggest one and
being rigorous with it as well those boundaries are so important um for all law students i think
and it's especially true for jd students uh or anyone else that's working and balancing
responsibilities at the same time so i think if you come into a law degree with uh the capacity
to manage your time properly and set aside the time you need to study i think you'll set yourself up
for success there for sure that's great advice um can you name a book or a movie that's been
significant to you and one you recommend to students a book or a movie oh you put me on the spot
jeez sorry you know that i don't know i don't know if i have one off the top of my head um i think
since i started law school i put down the book so it's been a long time since i've read anything
other than the law text yeah maybe um introduction into corporations yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah
that might be the one yeah okay yeah well law textbooks are always i mean that's a fair question
i mean a lot of students i think um yeah like they they they really do struggle to read anything
outside of law i mean yeah it certainly happens to me so yeah i think that's a very honest answer
yeah um fourth question did you always envision yourself practicing in the field that you're in
not what did you think you'd do when you started uh well prior to law school what did you would
you think you'd do straight out of high school and things like that yeah yeah no i've um i've
had a very kind of unconventional path to to get to this point in my degree um
yeah i started out straight out of high school um i took a year off to work
as many people do from regional australia to save up the money to move to the to the city um i
started out studying physiotherapy which is what up until that point i thought i was destined for
it um and i made it about one semester and then i and i jumped out of there pretty quick um yeah it
wasn't what i thought it would be i was kind of sold myself on this idea of um it being
something like closely related to sport and that was something i loved as a kid so
i went in with that expectation that i'd be end up working at a footy club or something
and that was going to be my life and um and all credit to the the staff at curtain physiotherapy
school they they were very quick to knock that out of everyone they made it a point i think they'd say
that's not what this is about at all um so yeah i got out of there pretty quick and
after that point i worked for a bit and went to tafe did a tafe certificate in conservation and
land management there you go that led me to working as a landscaper as well so i worked there
for two years as a landscaper uh and then yeah so after that point i figured i've tried everything
else so i went back to uni uh at this at that time i went to uni out of interest and not out of
professional aspirations so i chose what i thought would be an interesting subject matter which was
neuroscience and philosophy and thoroughly enjoyed that uh and like i said no career kind of in mind
uh as i did that degree and kind of yeah came out the other end and realized employment's quite
difficult yes as it is for many degrees i suppose but especially neuroscience is a small field
especially in wa so um yeah ended up working in the financial advice industry back in albany when we
got back down there and then uh for yeah from there kind of started really thinking about the
law um so yeah it's been a long unconventional journey i didn't have kind of a concrete career
goal in mind i think i think it's it's difficult to do when you're young you're 18 18 19 you're
making these decisions for like your future and where you're going to end up and it's it's
difficult to know where you know what suits you and what you're interested in so i suppose my
advice to anyone who's uh looking at law now or any degree
for that matter would be to to let yourself kind of explore your options a bit and
sure really hone in on what you're interested in because um that's where i've ended up now and it's
worked out quite well for me yeah i mean there are i think there are plenty of students as well
like especially in early years which perhaps get a bit disheartened or um yeah their idea of the
law or their idea of their aspirations might not be um as cookie cutter as they once thought and
i suppose adapting to that and um the law is a really great field where there's a lot of hats
a lot of um uh occupations and and disciplines that you can choose you know and they're also
very different to one another so it is a very um broad um feel but just more more broadly in
relation to um life i think you don't i think a reoccurring theme that i've um seen um across
many guests perhaps not uh someone like michael kirby who thought he was going to be a judge by
age eight but but um broadly speaking like yeah a lot of people don't um have a real
cut idea i think that that is a benefit because it makes you more adaptable to the situation
that you're in so yeah that's a thank you for sharing your story um on to our last question
um what's the greatest uh piece of advice you've ever received or uh perhaps the the greatest piece
of advice you've ever heard and it's sort of stuck into your brain yeah i'd say the greatest
piece of advice i suppose i've ever received would be to to just jump into the things that you're
you're keen on and interested in and um for me that's worked out
really well i think it's easy to hide behind your reservations and your fears and
um but yeah when it came to family and studying career opportunities i think when you put your
foot forward and and go after what you came for it's it's definitely something that will pay off
in the long run so yeah i'd say that's it there's no need to wait for the perfect time exactly just
do it yeah just go for it well kyle that's um all the time we have for today so thank you so much
for sitting down with me and it's been a pleasure to have you on thanks for having me mate thank you
are you a law student applying for clerkships this year you're not alone
get free access to grad iq's law clerkship toolkit containing detailed firm profiles
clerkship lists and cv and cover letter templates want to go further the grad iq academy pairs you
one-on-one with mentors who've got offers from linklaters allen's and white in case you'll get
tailored cv feedback mock interviews and advanced networking and commercial awareness prep
the best part you only pay if you land an offer head to gradiq.com.au and apply now
and make sure to tell them that you listen to the australian law student
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