Hello and welcome to the Australian Law Student Podcast.
I'm your host, Oliver Hammond, and on today's episode,
it was my pleasure to interview Joanne Kinslaw.
Joanne is a lecturer at the University of New South Wales
who teaches subjects like administrative
and immigration law.
She's also been an accredited specialist immigration lawyer
Such a qualification has been held
by less than 40 lawyers across the state.
She was educated at the University of Sydney Law School,
she runs her own practice, she's an amazing teacher,
and she brings a wealth of knowledge and experience
to today's discussion.
So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
Joanne, thank you so much for sitting down with me today
I suppose just getting started, my first question to you
is how would you explain the area of administrative laws
to a younger law student, and how does it relate
to your practice as a specialist immigration lawyer?
And what about it has kept you around for so long?
What a great place to start.
Well, administrative law is about keeping
the executive going.
It's about keeping the government accountable.
So it's concerned with the review of government decisions.
That might be merits review at tribunals or court review
in terms of the lawfulness of those decisions.
And immigration law is really one area
and quite a significant area of administrative law in Australia.
It's significant for a few different reasons,
one being the volume of decisions,
making in the area.
If you are to take, for example, the caseload
of the Federal Tribunal, currently the AAT,
an incredibly high proportion of the decisions under review
are immigration decisions.
If you go to the courts, again, not only in terms
of the volume of decisions, but also the jurisprudence
that's been developed for the whole time.
of administrative law through immigration cases so immigration is highly contested it is an area
where there really are a lot of ethical and societal challenges and not a lot of easy answers
so it's not surprising that it's an area in which there are a lot of challenges to government
decisions and the over the years the government has responded with some quite extraordinary
measures including a couple of decades ago an attempt to all but remove judicial review or
court review for immigration decisions but instead of approximately coming up to a quarter of a
century later us looking out on a scene where
the courts are not involved with immigration decisions instead we find that the courts
have developed an entirely distinct approach to previously where the focus has become
jurisdictional error and that's now a focus not only for immigration cases but throughout
administrative law going to the third aspect
of your question which is what has engaged me about this area of law well it is the fact that
it's it's dynamic it is the fact that it is at the cutting edge of many administrative law
developments it is because it's concerning things that really matter it's concerning
what is the rule of law how does the rule of law operate in australia how does our
system of government operate what do we really mean when we're at the challenging edge of
different cases what do we really mean about the separation of powers and the role of the courts
and the role of the executive it's also engaging because it's about people and that is a whole range
of people everything is about people and it's about people and it's about people and it's about
from situations of incredibly highly skilled people in very large corporations and the lengths
or the lack of lengths that they need to to go to to be a part of australian society and to bring
their skills on the other end it's also people who are in long-term immigration detention and
their stories why they're there it's about their their connections with australians and it's about
the way in which decisions are made for their future and so that sort of focused more on
individuals rather than perhaps other areas of law which focus more on entities and corporations
that's something that you really enjoy so that that's a more personal experience absolutely that
was one of the it was one of the things that i was really interested in when i was working on the
things that i was focused upon in finding an area of law that i wanted to be involved with if
i were to practice as a lawyer and that's really interesting that you also make the distinction i
think that when people think of immigration or they do think of uh that perhaps they don't think
of people in large corporations that are very skilled and sort of undergoing immigration you
know issues or um that sort of thing um and so um in relation to your experience your extensive
experience i think that's a really interesting thing i think that's a really interesting thing i think
how have you seen the sort of past trends develop in australia um and what what can you say about
well there's a number of um different trends certainly there's a trend in terms of the focus
upon skilled migration so since the the 1990s there was an increasing shift to favor skilled
migration over the years and i think that's a really interesting thing i think that's a really
interesting thing i think that's a really interesting thing i think that's a really interesting thing
what you could think of as a focus upon family migration or personal connection migration that's
that's in terms of the content then there's ongoing shifts with respect to the way in which
migration decisions are processed perhaps the there's there's been a number of iterations but
perhaps we could go back to what is coming up to close to 10 years when there were
there were a number of iterations that were processed but perhaps we could go back to what is
there was a major shift to create the border force as part of the the department of home affairs
and to shift the focus of home affairs away from settlement and towards border management
that also aligned with an ongoing focus of using immigration laws to regulate conduct
so rather than immigration
being focused on the process by which a person becomes or is permitted into the australian
community we've seen immigration laws being used more and more to seek to regulate the conduct of
people within the australian community and that is not only non-citizens but also citizens who
who may be wanting to employ
non-citizens or family members who may be wanting to sponsor non-citizens so it has been a really
significant refocus and along with that has been the focus on immigration law and this is something
that professor de verne from canada has analyzed in quite a bit of depth but the focus upon
as about status rather than the process of migration so what i mean there is that those
with the the higher status in society are more likely to be holders of permanent residence visas
but also less likely to be resident within the community they're more likely to be global
travelers and those
with a temporary status
are more likely to be in the community for many many years so these are some of the different changes that
we've seen in the in the last decades yeah yeah and and so with these trends in australia is is this um an
australian australian localized sort of issue or domestic issue or is this sort of more in line with
this sort of bigger global trend um in countries i mean with uh very recently the uk for example have um
legislation for more skilled workers and the sort of focus
on skilled labour, for example, seems to be a sort of global trend
that Australia is picking up from other countries.
Are some of these trends global?
Migration is portrayed to us as being very much the empowerment
of the national government, but as with a lot of other aspects
of modern life, it is influenced by global trends.
And Australia is both the influencer and the influenced.
And there's a lot of information sharing in terms
of visa processing as well.
I imagine that the Australian sort of system is very unique,
though, in a lot of ways.
I mean, Australia, for example, has a very small population
in relation to its land mass in relation to other sort
of Western countries.
Is that something that also?
Does it present sort of unique challenges in your practice
and sort of the sort of unique challenges that Australia has to face?
Look, that's quite a broad question.
Certainly the geography of Australia is quite distinct
amongst settler societies, and that has had an impact
upon the realities of border control.
Small numbers of foreigners who are within Australia
without visa permission compared to other countries
such as the United States in which there's very large numbers
of what would be termed undocumented migrants,
those without official permission to be in the country.
And I suppose turning away now from your career
in private practice, you also have a position
at the University of New South Wales.
As a lecturer and was the course convener for the Michigan wars when I went
away with the subject, what led you to pursue a career in teaching war
as well as practising it?
And what are some of the skills of not just being a good lawyer,
but also a good teacher?
Well, why have I persisted in being engaged with teaching
at the same time as practice?
I think partly it's just personal.
And I think it's just personal.
And it's something that I enjoy, but partly it's also a way
of dealing with the significant stresses in this area of law.
It's one of the areas of law where you really do have the privilege
of being a significant contributor to people's lives
at particular junctions, and that's a great privilege.
You get to hear this.
You get to hear these stories.
You get to look back and be able to say, in some cases,
the fact that I was involved and had a role to play in this person's life
has really meant it's taken a different direction.
However, it's also an area that is quite challenging because the accepted norms
of legal practice in Australia.
Many times don't apply, and there are many situations
in which you can only explain to people how the law operates.
That is the extent of your capacities as a lawyer in some situations,
and people can be in incredibly difficult circumstances.
So teaching allows me to step back.
From the details of all of the cases, and it allows me to, in a sense,
take what can be quite stressful and negative and try to bring
some creativity to that and try to use it in ways that are positive
with respect to educating the next generation of lawyers,
and hopefully inspiring at least some of them to make some positive impacts
in terms of how administrative law operates, particularly immigration law,
because the way in which our law operates is a series of choices,
and we're all a part of those choices.
So I think that as lawyers, we have, even in a general statement,
you don't need to be lecturing at a university to have the responsibility,
of understanding actually how the law works
and playing an educative role in society.
There's a lot of situations in which there's misinformation,
and that can be widespread, and that can influence government decision-making.
And so this education of the next generation and sort of equipping them
with your experiences, is that something that you think that that's –
that is a hallmark of a good academic, a good lecturer,
someone who also has, perhaps, more of their own stories to tell,
as well as the sort of theoretical side behind things.
I suppose in law school, and what I've noticed is that there is a difference
between perhaps academics who have committed themselves to academia
and had an illustrious sort of academic career,
lawyers who are then simultaneously other lawyers and professors,
or teachers and lecturers, or lawyers who have been lawyers
and then have converted into a lecturer afterwards.
And I think that that's a really important thing,
because it sort of is able – it's almost in a way, it's kind of those teachers
are the ones that go out into the sort of battlefield and then come back,
and then are able to sort of actually sort of say,
well, this is what it sort of looks like in practice.
And I think a problem
a lot of the times is that law theoretically doesn't actually turn out the way it does
in the real world.
And would you say that immigration law is an area of that that is particularly prone to that?
The sort of these theories and whereas they're actually affecting actual people's lives
and they can have sort of vast consequences.
Is that something you're seeing?
Well, if we take immigration law,
I certainly have a concern that over the years,
in which I've been practising,
there has become quite a gulf in the thinking framework.
So when you have that level of gulf,
you can't even have a sensible conversation.
And I have seen what, from my perspective,
is some really wonderful academic work,
which is, it's in my view,
important to have,
to have a variety of approaches.
But the best is when they all inform each other.
And my concern with immigration has been that government decision making
has discounted academic work in many instances,
and that that can partly be,
partly be influenced by a view that,
the work isn't speaking to the reality in which government decision making is happening.
So then the gulf becomes bigger and bigger.
And my approach with the immigration course,
is that first of all,
our responsibility is to understand the nitty gritty of the law,
and then to be advocating for change,
rather than only speaking to the theory,
and perhaps missing out on opportunities for dialogue.
Thank you for listening to the Australian Law Student Podcast.
The following segment is questions from the bench.
Here we ask our guests a set series of questions designed for you to get to know them better,
and to get key advice to help you on your journey.
Each week, we also take a question from you, our audience.
Head over to our socials and send us a message,
to get your question answered.
Thanks for listening.
Well, thanks so much, Joanne.
We're nearing the end of the podcast,
and I just have some short rapid fire questions we'd like to ask all our guests.
To paint a clear picture to students of what success looks like out of law school,
and perhaps what are some tips and tricks that they might be able to follow.
But what was your favourite subject in law school?
Ooh, migration and jurisprudence.
But migration was the one that allowed me to focus on work with people.
And so what's one habit or system that you believe has been pivotal to your success in
What's one that you've kept up?
Habit that I've kept up?
Well, it isn't, it has been probably an insistence on surrounding my people and myself with people
And working with people in which, where we share a common set of values and where we
have a high level of trust amongst us.
That would probably be my key commitment.
Your key commitment.
And I suppose, now taking a little more of a fun route, what's a book or a movie that's
been significant to you and one you'd recommend to students?
Yeah, look, that's a hard one.
I would probably say a novel that I really enjoyed was the book of Strange New Things.
And that was because it did what I want with a novel, which is help me to think about things
from a completely different angle.
That's certainly important in today's age to think from different angles.
And I suppose for students aspiring to make an impact in the world, what's a skill or
quality that you believe is the most important for them to develop in being able to go and
put their foot out and be a positive impact?
I always encourage...
I always encourage law students to take the time while they're at uni to develop quite
a strong sense of both the privilege and the opportunity and the qualities of being a lawyer
as well as the limitations.
In my experience, it's those practitioners where they don't see meaning in what they
do, that it becomes a very unpleasant experience, the practice of the law.
And we have the privilege of being part of a profession which has a role within society.
We're not just running businesses.
So I think that's really important to have that vision, it creates an easy framework
for what would otherwise become really difficult.
And I think that's the ethical question when you're working with clients under pressure,
but also to have the humility of recognizing the limitations of what it means to be a lawyer.
You're not everything to anyone.
If you go down that path, then the likelihood is you'll miss out on being able to play the
valuable role of being that lawyer.
And I suppose in relation to your career, did you always envision yourself practicing
the field that you are today, or if not, what did you think that you'd do?
I suppose with your favorite subject being immigration law, you kind of always had to
Well, that was quite late in my law degree as an elective.
I certainly did not have a clear view that I would even finish the last two years of
I did not have a clear view that I would even finish the last two years of the law degree,
as opposed to finish with the arts degree.
So it certainly wasn't a given for me.
I enjoyed history.
That was part of what led me into arts and law in the first place.
And I think what I enjoyed about the law was the tools that it gave me to analyze problems,
problems of people living in society, and not to find perfect solutions, but to offer
something valuable in terms of how we can function.
And so we're almost at the end, just the second last question.
What's the greatest piece of advice that you've ever received?
Has there ever been a piece of advice that stuck with you for when perhaps you were a
student or a young lawyer?
That's a really hard one.
As in there's so many great pieces of advice, or?
The advice doesn't come in sentences, that it's more about the people who are willing
to show you what it means to be part of a profession, and show you that it means not
to be alone, and to share in the experience.
And that is one of the aspects of immigration law that I really enjoy, is a high level of
collegiality, and there's really a common understanding of what it means to be a professional
And it's an area where you can always call on your colleagues to brainstorm, to find
So, I think that's definitely a piece of advice.
But it's the ongoing, yeah, support and willingness to have the conversation that has been one
of the wonderful aspects of being part of the profession.
I suppose that's a piece of advice that you've just given that might be some of us' greatest
So, yeah, I suppose finally, our last question, this is one from someone who's already one
Nick Walsh from the University of Queensland, who's just starting out.
Nick, what's the best way to start setting myself up for career success as a first year
What tips did you do or would you have liked to have done when you were in first year that
perhaps could have made the, or did make the way that it is now?
Oh, look, I'd probably say, you know, know yourself.
What is it about you that makes you want to be a lawyer?
What is the culture that you want to be a part of?
Do you think that the big firm scene is the one that resonates with you or the small firm
or the government lawyer?
And then what are your values?
Because that's going to define how you make decisions.
And what is it that allows you to find purpose and meaning?
What is what is going to separate you from automation?
It's irreplaceable.
And it's also, I think, going to have a big impact on your ability to meet the mental
health challenges that are common to the legal profession.
So I would encourage you, first of all, to know yourself.
Where do you find purpose and meaning?
What are your values?
And what is the culture that you want to be a part of?
And then just be open to taking a direction and taking a different direction.
Well, Joanne, thank you so much for sitting down with me and talking to me today.
And thanks to everyone, of course.