The Australian Financial Review
The Chief Operating Officer at the time said, great piece of work, fantastic, I'd now like
to offer you the opportunity to run this international business unit.
So I broke down, cried, and said, no, I can't do it.
It's so easy, the more senior and the bigger your job gets, that ego ends up playing way
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review.
And welcome to 15 Minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything
And along the way, we're hoping to get some great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Deanne Stewart, the chief executive of Aware Super.
Hi Deanne, how are you?
Hey Sally, I'm great.
Thank you so much for coming into the studio today.
Are you ready for your grilling?
Now Deanne, you're the chief executive of Aware Super, which is Australia's third biggest
superannuation fund, with 1.2 million members, over $160 billion worth of assets under management,
and 1,500 employees or so.
You're a pretty busy lady.
I am certainly busy, but as you've just mentioned, hugely privileged, I have to say, to be able
to run one of the big super funds.
It's an incredible privilege.
Okay, we're looking forward to hearing lots more about that privilege and your role today.
In the meantime, thank you so much for coming in and allowing us to spend 15 minutes with
As advertised, 15 minutes, we better get started.
The clock starts now.
My first question is about your morning routine.
What time do you get up?
Well, I am so not a morning person, but I do force myself to get up.
I typically get up about 6 a.m. and I get out and exercise.
So usually that's a run, but at least a couple of times a week I also go swimming, which
And then it's rush, rush, rush, rush, rush, kids into the car, and then I drop them off
at school on my way into work.
So when you go swimming or running, how long would you swim or run for?
Typically for just over 30 minutes.
You know, I try and get it in that time slot so that I get to work at a reasonable hour,
but enough that you feel that sort of energy and that sort of pick up for the day.
And do you feel like if you don't do that, you're somehow lagging in energy that day?
It's just such a great way of processing.
I listen to podcasts while I'm going for a run, so trying to be curious and learn more.
But also I think from a mental health perspective, it just really helps keep the stress down
and get you ready for the day.
So you say you listen to podcasts.
Can you name some of your favorite podcasts?
Oh, I have many that I love.
But for me, a go-to that I always come back to is a great podcast called Hidden Brain
by a gentleman by the name of Shankar Vadhan.
And he basically unpacks, in a way, a lot of it is psychology.
It's what goes on inside your brain.
What are you feeling?
What he usually does is he brings on experts, so whether it be PhD or professors or those
that have done deep research.
So in this case, he brought on a gentleman, I can't remember his name, but he had done
a whole research and a whole book on the topic of why we don't express gratitude or think
gratitude as much and what you can do to actually trigger that more in yourself.
And just before we move on from your mornings, are you a breakfast person?
I tend to have a bit of fruit and a coffee.
That's probably about it.
And then I'm often racing.
So, dear, my next question is about a pivotal moment in your career.
Is there a particular time that changed the trajectory of your career or a project you
took on that changed you or shaped you as a leader?
There has been several pivotal moments that I can think of, but the one that really comes
to mind was when I had been a consultant at McKinsey & Company and then had moved to
Merrill Lynch in New York.
And they had got me to do this role where I was doing essentially the strategy for an
international business unit.
And they weren't sure whether to close it down because it was losing money or whether
it could be re-energised.
And so I did the strategy piece.
It took about six months.
And then the chief operating officer at the time called me into his office and he said,
great piece of work, fantastic.
I'd now like to offer you the opportunity to run this international business unit.
So I did quite an embarrassing thing, broke down, cried and said, no, I can't do it.
I just genuinely didn't think I could do it.
I was like, I'm a strategy person.
And I still remember to this day, he was just like, you've got to have some courage and
stop thinking small, think big, you've got this.
I was trying to reflect on why I actually burst into tears anyway.
And I think it was just the dynamics of the fact that there was incredibly good senior
people in those roles and thinking, why on earth would he think that was me?
So I think overnight, it was really just mulling over, do I have the courage to do this?
Shall I take the risk?
And it's fear that's there, isn't it?
It's like a fear.
And then you go, hang on, I can overcome this fear, what am I doing?
And talking it over with my partner, who's now my husband, I decided to back myself and
What was the worst thing that could happen?
And for me, that was such an opportunity at 29 years of age to run an international business
that had teams right across the globe that I think very few 29 year olds would get that
With a P&L that was losing money at that point.
But what we were able to do was really turn it around over the course of the next four
And it taught me so much, not just about leadership, but also about leading people remotely.
Think about how useful that is for today, today's world.
But it also taught me so much about looking for potential in people rather than just something
that they've done previously.
So there was lots of lessons through that period of time, and it really did shape the
type of leader that I am.
That's really good advice to look for the potential in people.
Okay, my next question.
What is the best piece of career advice you've ever been given?
Well, I guess that was one of them, which I mean, really what he was saying there is
don't think small, think big.
I think inside a lot of human beings is this huge innate desire to make a difference.
But somehow you get caught up in the humdrum of life, or you limit yourself because of
either expectations on you or just you get into a habit.
And I think coming back to the fact that just about every human being has such massive potential
to make a really positive difference.
For me, it's something I do come back to again and again, because I know I have that yearning
Actually, that's an interesting point on making a difference, because I think a lot of people
are in roles where you would really struggle to think that you're making a difference.
If you're doing, say, product management roles or where it's kind of hard to see exactly
what difference you're making, is it incumbent upon leaders to explain to everybody in a
business how they fit in and how they're making a difference to the overall picture?
And I think this is where being so clear about an organization's purpose and your own individual
purpose really matters.
When I talk to lots of my team, we talk a lot about our purpose at AwareSoup periods
to really shape the best possible future for our members and their families.
So that's one aspect.
But I think the second aspect is actually to spend enough time on your own self-reflection
of what is it that my purpose on earth is about and what do I want to get out of it?
And I think almost any role, you can live that purpose, but actually it starts with
being really clear what that is in the first place.
And I find so many people just don't take the time to really think about that.
And can you describe succinctly what your purpose is?
My purpose, I feel, is to really help grow and develop others that they can have massive
impact on this planet.
Developing others so they can have a great impact.
Okay, Deanne, we're going to take a short break, but don't go away.
When we come back, we're going to open this beautiful brown box, which we like to call
Welcome back to 15 Minutes with the Boss.
I'm here with Deanne Stewart, the CEO of Aware Super.
Now Deanne, this is our section called the Chatterbox.
Oh, this is very exciting.
This is this box you'll see in front of us, lovely, shiny and brown, inside which are
20 questions all folded up on little bits of paper.
I am going to ask you to select three questions, have a forage around, and I will then of course
ask you to respond.
Have a fish around.
How do you create a positive culture within your company?
First of all, I do think you need to get a really good pulse check on what is the culture
in your organisation, because it is definitely the actions and behaviours and values sitting
inside the organisation.
And secondly, I do think it's a combination of leaders play a huge role in really setting
the culture and setting the norms and the behaviours, because people will look and follow
way more than we realise, I think, as leaders.
But I do think you can get it really bottom up organically in lots of different things.
So for example, in the last couple of organisations that I've run, we've had these collectives
that have really taken their own initiatives and responsibilities, and they let the culture
just come to life.
So it might be the social club, or it might be the health and wellbeing, or community,
and how do we actually have a bigger impact and positive impact on the community.
So I think part of it is top down, but some of it you want organically bottom up for people
to feel deeply engaged.
And that's where the positivity and the discretionary effort comes from.
And then finally, I think you need to be really deliberate on things like rituals and the
way that you set up some of the things that the organisation does.
So it just reinforces the culture that you're trying to set.
So what sort of rituals would you set up, for example, at Aware Super?
So some of the things that we're trying to set up as rituals, first of all is stand ups.
So as a group exec, for example, we stand up at the beginning and the end of each week
to really go, right, what are we trying to achieve?
Where are we got?
What are we proud of for this week?
A stand up meeting.
Stand up meeting.
Which goes for how long?
No more than half an hour, maximum.
The next example, so what I'm trying to do with the innovation is get much more challenge,
debate, feedback that we are constantly improving and learning.
And so what we've done is added a ritual of feedback at the end of each of our key meetings.
So what worked well, what didn't work so well, what will we learn for next time?
So that's reflecting actually on the meeting you've just had.
Because if you wait for a couple of weeks, you'll never remember what you did and what
didn't work in that meeting.
Whereas if you get feedback at the end of the meeting immediately, that's an example
of a ritual that reinforces constant improvement, constant growth in an organisation.
And that constant improvement is so critical.
Okay, Deanne, next question.
Oh, you've read this before me.
I meant to head it just straight over, am I?
We'll forgive you this once.
What will you miss most about the job if or when you leave?
Not that, of course, we're wishing that upon you.
I have to say, Aware Super has got some just of the most incredible people and the incredible
And so if I was to leave it, I think that is what I'd miss, the people and the culture
And do you spend a lot of time sort of on a one-to-one basis with a lot of team members?
I try to as much as I can.
And I'm quite deliberate in my calendar to make sure that I do have time, not just with
the group exec, but with people right across the organisation, and that I also spend time
on the frontline.
So whenever I'm in Melbourne, I'll go and sit with the service centre, for example,
both to learn and hear how they're going, but also to hear from our members.
Each week I tend to have a virtual coffee catch up with a group of people.
Which can be all throughout the organisation?
Which can be right throughout the organisation.
And that for me is really important because I think as a CEO, it's really easy to get
caught up in your own rhetoric or have people around you that think that you might want
to hear all these positive things.
But you really need to hear what's working and what's not working.
And I try and seek out people right across the organisation to get different perspectives.
And it gives me a much better pulse for, okay, this is working, great.
But actually we need to do something a bit different here, got it?
So when you do the virtual coffee meetings, do you have people from different departments
in the same meeting or do you sort of go to one department and say, let's have a coffee?
Typically it's different departments all in the one meeting because it therefore serves
One is for a great way of meeting them and also hearing their different perspectives,
but also cross pollination across the organisation.
Interesting, good advice.
Okay, next question.
Have another forage around.
Yes, you're not supposed to look.
What is your favourite party story you like to share?
Well, we have just opened an office in the UK and we couldn't have got the timing better
in the terms of the government was also holding a global investment summit that they do every
two years where they got global CEOs right across the globe.
So I had the most awesome opportunity to both meet the prime minister in the UK and also
That's a good party story.
Now I think you also met Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JP Morgan.
And I have to ask, what's he like?
He was fabulous actually.
I was on a panel with Jamie and I had met him the night before and he immediately went
to sort of talking about what he's learnt as a CEO.
He talked about ego and the importance of humility and how to stay grounded.
So it's a little bit back to our earlier conversation of how do you really make sure you're hearing
from different people with different perspectives and that you're not taking action as a leader
that's ego based.
His view was it's so easy, the more senior and the bigger your job gets, that ego ends
up playing way too big a role.
And what about King Charles?
What was he like?
I did have an opportunity to shake hands and have a quick chat with him and he was asking
me about being a super fund opening up in the UK, why we were doing it.
And then I talked to him a little bit about climate change because I know that that's
something that he's very passionate about and the fact that Aware Super has done a lot
And he was like, and do you invest in hydrogen?
And I was like, not quite yet.
It's a bit speculative at this point.
So that was the conversation, but he was very charming and certainly generous.
So Deanne, that is the end of our Chatterbox section.
I now have one final question, which I ask every CEO, and that is, if you had a year
off unencumbered, you could do anything you wanted.
What would you do?
I think for me, it would be go and locate in Southern France.
I'd love to go and do some really big long walks like the Camino trail and big bike rides.
But I think at the same time, I'd really love to study as well.
I'm so curious about psychology, the brain.
I think I'd actually study that for a year and try and learn more about how humans tick.
Just on the psychology front, do you find yourself consciously using psychology in your
job on a day-to-day basis?
I think what makes humans tick is just fascinating.
And I think we often fall for the trap of everyone must be thinking about something
the way I think about it, or everyone must do things for a very rational reason.
And the reality is beneath the surface, there are so many different things happening according
to someone's background, what's going on, their experiences.
And so I think really trying to understand humans at a deeper level helps you not only
be a better CEO or a better leader, but it probably makes you a better partner, a better
family member, a better human being, quite frankly.
And that is our 15 minutes up.
Deanne, thank you so much for coming in.
It's been a delight talking to you.
I love hearing about the way you have learned to back yourself, the way you think big, not
small, and the fact that you really like developing people in your team so that they
can go on and lead their best work lives and indeed their best lives outside of work.
And I love the way you've developed rituals that reinforce what you're trying to tell
your staff on a day-to-day basis.
So thank you again so much for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
Thanks so much, Sally.
I've really enjoyed the conversation.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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The Australian Financial Review.