I was a chartered accountant and went to London with PWC.
I got told I was on the partner program and I went home and I thought, I don't want to
be on the partner program and I went back the next day and resigned and took nine months
All I had done for the month before was walk and work, walk and work, walk and work.
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review and welcome
to 15 minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything in between
and along the way we're hoping to get some great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Alexis George, the chief executive of AMP.
Hi Alexis, how are you?
I'm very well today, thank you.
Thank you for coming and joining me on a beautiful sunny afternoon and for allowing us to spend
15 minutes with the BOSS.
Now Alexis, as I said, you're the CEO of AMP, which is a financial services company providing
superannuation and investment products, financial advice and banking products through AMP Bank.
Now it's no secret that AMP has had a bit of a tricky patch and some say you have one
of the harder jobs in corporate Australia, so I for one, I'm really looking forward
to how you balance all that in terms of both your personal life and your work life.
Now, Alexis, we have a lot to get through, our 15 minutes starts now.
So I'm going to start by asking you three questions.
My first question is, how do you start your day?
What happens before you go to the office?
I'm not a routine person naturally, but my routine in the morning is always the same
and it starts typically with a big black Labrador's nose in my face saying, I want to go for a
That'll be the alarm clock.
That is my alarm clock.
If I'm lucky, I get a lick as well.
We have two dogs and so I'm usually out walking by 6am most mornings and I just love that
one hour in the morning when no one bothers me.
I'm addicted to podcasts, so I listen to podcasts, walk the dogs and just have time to think
What do you generally listen to in the morning?
I listen to a whole range of things because if I'm trying to learn about something new,
like now it's AI, I'm completely addicted to trying to learn about generative AI, which
everyone at work hates, but I always come back to conversations because I am just fascinated
with what makes people tick and why they do certain things and I love hearing stories
So on the AI front, do you have any recommendations for me?
I would absolutely recommend hard fork.
It talks about how AI can be used and it's people who are nerdy, I suppose, in terms
of technology, so they're playing around with the latest and greatest and coming back with
what it did and what it didn't do and what we should be scared of and what we shouldn't
And there's one there, I think it's called Valentine or something like that, where the
generative AI falls in love with the reporter.
It is fascinating.
Sounds like I should add that to my listening list.
So after your walk, do you have breakfast?
Are you a breakfast person?
I'm a black coffee person, but honestly, I'm pretty no fuss.
I come back from my walk, have a shower, dressed as quickly as I can.
My hair is this short, so I don't have to do anything with it.
Get in whatever transport, get to work, big black coffee.
That's breakfast.
And then nothing until lunchtime.
I would starve if that were me.
I think that's the best thing for me, Sally.
I'm a lover of food, so I think if I don't eat until lunchtime, that's a good thing.
Yeah, fair enough.
So my next question is, tell me about a moment in your career that was a pivotal moment that
changed the trajectory of your career in some way or helped to shape you as a leader.
Look, there's one that sticks in my mind more than anything else, and I kind of try to live
this every day of my life.
I was a chartered accountant and went to London with PwC.
I was a senior manager there.
I got told I was on the partner program, and I went home and thought, I don't want to be
on the partner program.
And I went back the next day and resigned and took nine months off and traveled around
And that was great, but then I came back to Australia and it was in a recession period.
And I had to start this job whereby I was a bank reconciliation clerk, right?
So I've gone from senior manager in Pricewater House to a bank reconciliation clerk.
I was very upset with myself, but I had no money and nowhere to live.
And the best piece of advice I've ever got from one of my closest friends to this day
is you have two choices here, Alexis.
You become the best bank reconciliation clerk you can be, or you get out because you're
going to destroy your career.
And I became the best bank reconciliation clerk I ever could be.
And what I learned from that, like, always do the best you can.
If you're not passionate about what you're doing, get out because this is one small place
and it will start to affect your future career.
So were you a bit shocked when you first heard that piece of advice?
Yeah, I was actually.
I was feeling, woe is me.
You know, what have I done?
She should have sympathy for me, but she didn't.
She just gave me straight between the eyes.
And I was like, I'm going to get over it, girl, or get out.
So do you use that in your job now?
Do you have sort of tasks that you've got to do, which you think, really?
I've got to do this.
I shouldn't have to do this.
Actually, I'm really honest.
Because I think if I'm prepared to ask someone else to do it, occasionally I'll have to
do things I don't like to do either.
And for me, it's really important to be humble, right, and to treat everybody the same.
That is great advice about treating everybody the same.
My next question is, how do you make tough decisions or manage conflict?
For me, dealing with it quickly is the best thing.
I have learned if I don't deal with it quickly, it becomes something it wasn't, and it builds
up to something that it doesn't need to.
So for me, if I feel there's conflict, I will deal with it.
I forget about it 10 minutes later, so that's not always a good thing, because I know other
I'm very conscious of that.
I think it's best to just base into conflict.
And when it comes to difficult decisions, I think I'm really rational.
So I'm going to make difficult decisions based on data rather than emotion.
They're not always pleasant decisions.
I accept that, but I'm going to do the best I can in imparting that decision.
And what types of decisions do you find are the most difficult to make?
I think it's always when it comes to people.
They're never easy decisions, whether it's performance issue or just a fact that the
organisation's changing and people's roles change.
They're never easy, because everyone reacts in a different way, and I think it's really
important to think about that.
And is there a secret to be critical about someone's performance and how you deliver
that message and try and get them to work better?
Yeah, I think if people understand that you're doing it in their best interests and not to
one-up them, it makes a difference.
And I think also dealing with it at the point, not six months later when you sit down and
have a formal review.
That is not effective in my mind, making sure they're aware that you're only just doing
this to help them.
I'm not going to tell anyone else about it.
I'm trying to help you with your performance, I think is really important.
That's good advice.
On that note, Alexis, stay where you are, we're going to take a short break.
And when we come back, we're going to open the chatterbox.
I'm here with Alexis George, the CEO of AMP.
And now Alexis, we are going to open the chatterbox.
You will see in front of you a lovely looking brown box inside of which are 20 questions
all printed on little bits of paper wrapped up.
I would like to ask you to pick out a few of those questions one by one, hand them to
And of course, I will then ask you to answer them.
So would you like to start foraging in the chatterbox?
Just what you always wanted to do.
It's like a lucky dip.
Ah, this is a subject that I think you might quite like.
What do you think of chat GPT and what does it mean for your business?
Well, you're right.
I think generative AI will fundamentally change many parts of our society and absolutely the
workforce and the way we go about things.
And in financial services, I think it will impact things from advice to the way we interact
with customers and really everything.
And so we're spending quite a bit of time now thinking about how we can interact better
with our customers using the various tools that are available.
So do you think that many jobs will change substantially as a result of it because you'll
have this whole new source that you can use?
I mean, with chat GPT, it's a language, right?
So you can create things.
I don't know if you've had a play with it, but I had to go to a 50th birthday party recently
and had to do the speech.
So I asked it to write me the speech.
I edited it, of course, but it wasn't too bad.
And so I think it really will change quite a lot of positions, to be honest, in the work
we do and get rid of a lot of that mundane work and allow us to focus more on the value
So do you think that for a society as a whole, we will need fewer white collar jobs because
chat GPT will be able to do a lot of that grunt work for us?
I don't know the answer to that because if you look over history, we've had many technological
advances and we still have the same or more people in the workforce just doing slightly
different things.
And I think as humans, we're very, very smart.
So I definitely think it will augment the work that humans do.
Will it completely replace it?
I'm not so sure about that yet.
And do you think it'll allow more Australians to get affordable financial advice?
I honestly feel that's a place where generative AI can help.
And you know, if you can create even avatars and things that will talk in the same way
the customer talks, imagine the power of that.
Because you know, you can it's about images now avatars, etc, etc.
So I think things are changing at a rapid rate.
Is that going to be next year?
I don't think so.
But will it be in three to five years?
Do you want to have a little forage in the box?
I'll have something.
This is a bit scary, Sally.
Nothing like a bit of danger in a podcast, I always say.
Oh, this is a good one.
In fact, one of my favorites.
What's the hardest thing about leadership?
Yeah, I think the hardest thing about leadership, especially in a modern world where you know,
social media, mobile phones can take photos, videos, whatever.
It's always being on show and I'm naturally probably a quite silly person.
And obviously you have to have to adjust that in the corporate world and being really careful
about those little messages you might be sending that you're not conscious of because you didn't
do something or you did do something or you said something or you didn't talk to someone
because you were having a your mind was everywhere.
So I think that's constantly being on show.
A recent example, I was out with some of my closest friends and family, it was my husband's
birthday and we were in this little place in Darlinghurst somewhere and there was a jazz
band and we were all just being silly and dancing and this man kept looking at me across
And I said to my husband, oh, look, I've still got it.
But then he came over and he said, hello, you're Alexis George, aren't you?
I'm a shareholder of A&P.
And I thought, oh, I thought it was safe.
But that's a silly example, right.
And it wasn't it wasn't that bad.
But I just think being really conscious of signs that you send that you may not realize
OK, OK, next question.
Do you have a coping mechanism for high stress situations?
I have two things.
Firstly, I always have my runners under the desk.
So if I've really had enough, I'll put them on for 20 minutes.
Lucky enough to work in circular key.
So if I can go for a quick walk around the Opera House or in the gardens and come back.
And that for me is always a good checkout mechanism.
I'm not a natural stress head, I've got to say.
Typically, I can just sit for five minutes and I'll be fine.
But walking and being outside for me is a real calmer.
So you're not someone who loses a lot of sleep over very much?
And very, very, very rarely, except for the husband snoring.
And are you able to compartmentalize the work and the and home life so you don't take work
I've always been really good at like, I am working now.
I'm giving 100 percent.
I'm talking to a friend now.
I'm giving 100 percent.
I honestly think my husband's had a lot to do with that.
I remember when I was in a very stressful job where I wasn't getting on with my boss
And he used to say to me when I got to the door after work, is this going to affect us?
And if it isn't, leave it at the doorstep before you come in.
And actually, I think he helped me to say, all right, drop that.
Another thing I do is I volunteer for Lifeline.
I've done that for eight or nine years now.
And I suppose, you know, doing that, I've really learned at the end, shred your notes.
But as I walk at that door, I always go, I now remember how good my life is.
Does that also add to your leadership in some way when you're at work?
Because you're sort of leading these people through these traumatic situations.
I think it helps me learn patience in listening to people's stories before I jump in to make
Absolutely have learned that because I'm a natural talker and fixer.
And so I think it's taught me to stop, listen, and let people find their own solutions.
Wow, that's amazing.
It's fantastic that you have the energy to do that as well as what you do during the day.
Well, on the weekends, that's when I do it on the weekends.
OK, so that is now the end of our chatterbox section.
Alexis, my last question is, if you had a month off unencumbered, no responsibilities,
you could do anything you wanted.
What would you do?
A very good question.
I recently walked the Larapinta Trek with 16 women.
We started out of Alice Springs.
So that was certainly interesting.
Now, if I had my time again, I'd do a bit more training before the Larapinta Trek.
So I would spend the first couple of weeks getting myself ready for the next two weeks
walk because it was hard.
And how many kilometres a day were you walking?
Between 15 and 20.
But it's kind of it was rocky and a lot of uphill.
And I felt like all I had done for the month before was walk and work, walk and work, walk
and work, and I didn't do enough walking.
So how much walking did you do this time ahead of the trek?
As much as I could.
Not enough, I would suggest, but as much as I could.
And was it beautiful?
Yeah, I think you realise how magnificent our country is when literally you're standing
on top of a mountain and you can see as far as you can on either side and all there is
is red dirt, a few trees, and you really realise the enormity of our continent and our country.
And it's fascinating.
Yeah, no, that's true.
Another reason to go trekking in Central Australia.
On that note, Alexis, 15 minutes is up.
I've really loved talking to you and thank you so much for coming in.
I love the way you're able to compartmentalise your home life and your work life.
I love the fact that you're working for Lifeline in addition to everything else you do.
I love the passion you have for your job.
So thank you so much for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
If you like the podcast and would like to hear more, consider sharing the podcast or
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At The Financial Review, we investigate the big stories about markets, business and power.
You can subscribe to The Financial Review, the daily habit of successful people, at afr.com forward slash subscribe.
This podcast was hosted by me, Sally Patton, produced and edited by Lap Fan.
Our theme is by Alex Gow and our executive producer is Fiona Buffini.
The Australian Financial Review.