I remember sitting there one day thinking, wouldn't mind some exposure overseas or work
overseas, and I was just cold called.
The guy running our Boston office, who I happened to know was an Australian, he shot back to
me pretty quickly and said, sure, you know, come on over, be here in a month.
Find a meaningful side project outside of work.
It's rewarding and it really energises you and your day job.
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review.
And welcome to 15 Minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything
And we're hoping to get some really great advice from our leaders along the way.
My guest today is Grant McCabe, the managing director of BCG in Australia.
Hi Grant, lovely to see you on screen, thank you for coming into our Melbourne office.
Hi Sally, it's lovely to be here.
Now, Grant, you're the managing director of strategy consulting firm BCG in Australasia.
BCG advises state and federal governments and companies in sectors such as retail, healthcare,
mining and energy, and your clients include Woolworths, BHP, Qantas and ANZ.
And I'm sure lots of other household names, you just prefer not to mention who they are.
And you employ about 650 people across five offices in Australia and New Zealand, in Melbourne,
Sydney, Perth, Canberra and Auckland.
Do you travel to all those destinations very much?
Yes, Sally, so I've definitely got my hands full and I do try to get around to those offices
as frequently as possible.
I must say that I have a more frequent routine in and out of Sydney and Melbourne, but last
week I was in Perth, for example, and New Zealand with our Auckland office is also on
So it's an important part of my role to make sure I do get around to each of those offices.
And thank you very much for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
Our time is short.
So let's start the clock right now.
My first question is about your morning routine, assuming that you're not travelling.
What time do you get up?
When do you have your first cup of coffee?
Well, I am a morning person, Sally, so I'm up anywhere between five and five thirty in
And the first thing I'll do is pick up my phone or have a look at my laptop and just
go through for 10 or 15 minutes those emails that need a quick answer or that have greater
urgency about them.
But then I get out for some exercise and it's important for me to be feeling like I'm reasonably
physically fit, but mostly it's about quieting a busy mind.
For probably the last 20 years, that's looked like going for a run and I'd run about four
But now that I'm getting older, I tend to mix it up a little bit.
So it's a bit of a combination of walking, been getting into Pilates more recently.
But then the other thing I'll do before breakfast is revisit my list for the week and I make
sure that I'm really thinking about the highest priority things I have to do for that day,
And on breakfast, I love breakfast, I never miss it.
And so the coffee will come.
And hopefully someone at home is out of bed for me to have a coffee and a piece of toast
with before I head out to the office, which is usually leaving home by around about seven
thirty, maybe a little earlier.
So that's quite a lot to pack into the morning.
How are you finding the Pilates?
I've got to say it's one of the toughest exercises that I've done.
I feel pretty sore for a couple of days typically, but it is important, I think, to combine some
strength exercise with either walking or from time to time light running for me these days.
So it's great to mix it up.
So on the list front, what sorts of things are you putting on your list?
Is it just the list for that day or the week that's ahead, the month ahead?
How does that work?
The one that I look at every day is one that has what's right in front of me, which tends
And that week can be categorized into things that are logical categories for me.
So some things that might have something to do with our clients, it might have something
to do with a person I need to go and meet or talk to.
But there also might be some personal objectives that I need to meet there as well.
But mostly it's fairly radical prioritization about the biggest, most impactful things that
I need to be dealing with.
Yeah, interesting.
So, Grant, my next question is about a pivotal moment in your career.
Can you tell me about a time or something that happened that really changed the nature
or the trajectory of what you were doing?
Sally, the one that came to mind was a decision to spend some time offshore.
I remember sitting there one day thinking, wouldn't mind some exposure overseas or work
And I just cold called the guy running our Boston office, who I happened to know was
So it wasn't exactly following the usual process to get an overseas experience.
But he shot back to me pretty quickly and said, sure, you know, come on over, be here
So I packed up my wife, my two year old and shot over to Boston.
So when you rang the guy in Boston, did you have a prepared plan and a job for yourself?
Or did you literally just say, I want a job with you.
I did have a little bit of a plan.
I was an engineer when I came out of university and I really wanted to work more in the industrial
space and get some experience working with those companies that are dealing with large
capital decisions, big infrastructure and creating really tangible goods.
So I talked to him about my passion for the type of things I wanted to work on, the people
I really wanted to work with, who some of whom were in his office.
And the fact that he was an Aussie, whose name was also Grant, may have built a little
bit of a connection.
So, but he was very generous in for someone he didn't know that well to take a risk on
And I do reflect now on for all of our people, it's about giving people a go, remove roadblocks,
but just encourage them to back themselves and be their best.
So did you do quite a lot of research in that case before you spoke to this fellow
so that you could put your best case forward?
Yeah, there's a little bit of research.
I was aware of the sort of work that we were doing in the US.
I was also aware of the people in Boston who were working in the spaces that I was wanting
So a little bit of background on those folks, I'd met a couple at global BCG conferences.
So I was able to speak fairly credibly about what they were doing and why I wanted to work
What's the main difference about working in the US versus working in Australia?
I really feel like it's got a level of aspiration and a level of innovation in the US that was
You hear about that before you go, but living in the US and just how people think, how they
talk to you, the boldness of many of the organisations, it's really quite inspiring.
So for me, when I came back, I wanted to bring some of that back to our market as well and
push companies to be pretty brave and bold and be thinking about what they could achieve.
But it's just so apparent, I think, in many parts of the US, it's just a natural aspiration
that runs through the culture.
And a willingness to take on a lot more risk than, say, Australian companies.
I think that's right.
But I think more recently, we can see examples of great innovation in our market.
But on the whole, I felt like it was a much more innovative, bold, aspirational set of
clients that we were working with.
OK, Grant, my next question is, what is the best piece of career advice you've ever been
Probably the best advice I've had is from someone who, over time, has become very important
to my career and to my life.
And we were talking about how to maintain perspective in busy roles, how to keep it
And the advice was, always look for the interesting or exotic side project or topic to take on.
And I started working with the AFL Players Association with an ex-player, Mark Bolton,
who was running an initiative called Latter, which is a player-funded initiative to house
and support homeless youth.
For me, it was a really inspirational initiative and a window into some of the great people
involved in the AFL industry.
And from there, I sort of moved along to the AFL, helping out with projects like equipping
players to think about life beyond footy, and then on to the Geelong Footy Club, which
is a place where I've had a lot of continuity, and I'm now a director of the club.
So the advice is not to find new projects at work.
It's to find new projects or projects outside of work to keep you generally interested.
Find a meaningful side project or interest outside of work.
It's sort of giving back a little bit.
It's rewarding and it really energizes you in your day job.
So are there skills and experiences that you have learnt from the AFL, which you have been
able to bring back to your day job at BCG?
The AFL itself and the clubs are high-performance organizations, and one thing I'd say that
we could bring back into the firm is this idea that we've got a lot of talented people,
and often you just need to remove roadblocks and encourage them to be their best.
So give people some space to find their niche, to be able to do the job in the way they want
to do it, so they can deliver the highest possible performance or help them develop
really quickly as well.
So that idea that we can bring in talented people, but provide the space for them to
So, Grant, on that note, you have successfully completed the first section.
We're going to take a short break, but don't go away.
When we come back, we're going to open the Chatterbox.
Welcome back to 15 Minutes with the Boss.
I'm here with Grant McCabe, the Managing Director of BCG in Australia and New Zealand.
Now, Grant, as promised, this is our section called the Chatterbox.
In front of me, not you, because we're in different cities, I have this super high-tech,
no-expenses-spared brown cardboard box, inside which are, I don't know, maybe 15 questions
all folded up on bits of paper.
I'm going to choose some of these on your behalf and ask you the questions, and you
just have to trust that I'm going to choose ones that you like.
I will start foraging.
Who is a leader, business or otherwise, whom you really admire and why?
Sally, I mentioned his name before.
It's Colin Carter.
He had a long career as a board director for many significant companies across Australia.
But in addition to that, his involvement with the AFL, he was on the commission for a very
Danny Geelong, he was a Premiership President as well.
But beyond that, he's been very committed to Indigenous communities and helping to improve
outcomes for Indigenous people across Australia for a very long time.
He's still very much involved there now, and from the corporate side, still involved with
board reviews and governance and has a real interest in governance excellence.
But beyond all of that, one of the highest integrity people you'll ever meet puts values
first and has a real care for people.
So if there are one or two things that you would like to adopt from him, what would they
His high integrity and his values, I think, are the biggest lesson that I've ever received
It's not just what he says, but what he does, what he values and really what he won't walk
And it can be the big topics, but also the smallest things.
Even if he's in our office and he sees something that's quite untidy, people aren't being neat
enough around the kitchen, he'll gently point out that that's really a fundamental part
of respecting each other.
So the integrity and the values are what I'll take away from my interactions with Colin.
So being polite to other people and a way of showing that is by just being tidy so that
someone else can use the kitchen.
Are there other examples you can give of the things that he won't say won't walk past?
So it's not just those really small things, Sally.
I think there's some big issues as well.
So if there are behaviors of individuals that are in very significant organizations, he's
the sort of person who will certainly have the right conversation with that person or
give advice on how the organization or people should react to that as well.
He likes to make sure that people are treated well, but people are doing the right thing
for the benefit of the organization and not just for the benefit of them as an individual.
Let's go to our next question.
Name three people you would like to have dinner with and why.
I think Barack Obama would be fascinating.
I find him to be a really curious character.
Got into the role of being president of the United States quite early in his political
career at somewhat of a rough time.
But I do admire the fact that he's willing to still weigh in on topics now is post that
part of his career.
So I think he'd be one.
I went to see Jerry Seinfeld last night, so I think he might be an interesting counterpoint
to someone like Barack Obama.
Not that I necessarily think differently, but I think he'd be quite an interesting
guy to sort of sit down and talk to and listen to.
And the third one?
I wouldn't mind getting Julia Gillard in there as well.
What a remarkable leader she was for us.
I think she's been really brave in many aspects of her career and how she sort of talked about
it and continue to talk about what she believes in.
So two politicians, I might have surprised myself with that selection, but I think that
Tria would be fascinating.
And I would love to ask Barack Obama about communication and how he just nails it so
Someone who's really inspirational.
What a fascinating discussion that would be.
Jerry Seinfeld, Barack Obama and Julia Gillard.
Who wouldn't want them together?
Okay, Grant, let's go to the next question.
What's the one thing that others worry about that you don't or vice versa?
If I bring that back into my own firm and I think about the younger people in the organisation,
some of them will worry a little bit too much about whether they're going to be successful
in the role and whether they're going to progress.
Most people that I see certainly coming into our organisation are just extraordinarily
talented and they come from a remarkable set of experiences, even as very young people.
So I would like them to be really backing themselves with the talent that they have
and just remove that baggage around whether they're going to be good at it or not and
throw themselves into it.
There's a huge amount of support for them.
They're not in it on their own and trust that people will support them to be successful
Probably easy to say that in hindsight, isn't it?
When you've been through all those hurdles and you're a more senior person.
But I do think if you can unhook yourself from that anxiety, life will be a whole lot easier.
And how difficult do you think it is for young people to back themselves?
There's a lot of uncertainty in the world more broadly, but I think back and feel like
there's always been a lot of uncertainty and there's always been a lot of concern
around how things are going to play out in the economy or how things are going to play
out in the world.
So I think that the anxiety is probably reasonably well-founded, but it's one thing that I think
we realise there's always a lot of volatility, uncertainty in the world and just getting
comfortable with that.
But to your point, Sally, you're right.
It's a tough environment and one that I think does weigh heavily on some young people.
And do you find that it weighs heavily on young people today than say it did five or
Have you noticed a difference?
There are certain topics that introduce a bit more anxiety.
So there are more than 80 elections happening around the world this year, which is more
than ever has been recorded.
It's going to be potentially a very disruptive year.
Obviously, one or two of those elections will be more impactful than others.
But as we move through this year, this topic around geopolitics and how are things going
to play out with conflict around the world is one that's a lot more acute than it was,
I think, even five years ago.
Climate and sustainability is another one.
How are we going to manage ourselves through this transition?
Are companies and governments thinking about it high enough on the agenda?
I think those two topics really weigh quite heavily on some of the younger people that
OK, Grant, on that note, that's the end of our chatterbox section.
I've now got one final question for you, and that is if we gave you 12 months off,
assuming that we've got the power to give you 12 months off, you were unencumbered,
you could do anything you liked.
What would you do?
Do you remember there was a series called Jack Irish, which is based on the books by
Peter Temple and the Guy Pearce character who had a career as a lawyer.
But after going through some tough times, he found himself working in a furniture workshop
And it really struck me that that's what I'd like to do, something creative.
It probably wouldn't be learning to make furniture, but it would be probably restoring
Interspersed with that would probably spend a little bit of time travelling, chasing some
of the big sporting events around the world.
So getting to Wimbledon or getting to Formula One Grand Prix or getting to the Tour de France.
So a little bit of that sports tourism, maybe cricket at Lourdes.
But the most part would be settling into a simpler routine and doing something like
And Grant, what sort of car would you like to restore?
One of my daughters and I did restore a little Volkswagen Beetle through COVID.
We didn't do the work.
It was more we had a workshop we were instructing on how we wanted to restore it.
But we found it as a paddock bomb and turned it into quite a lovely little car.
But I'd take on a bigger challenge.
Maybe an old Alfa Romeo might be the next one.
Well done. Your 15 minutes is up.
The interrogation has finished.
Grant, I love the way you made the phone call to the person in Boston and you wouldn't take
no for an answer and you got yourself to Boston.
I love the lessons that you have learned along the way about integrity and values and also
the advice you have on the importance of having an extracurricular activity, which is something
I need to take on board.
And finally, good luck with restoring the Alfa.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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