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Summer Series Extended Interview Of Sydney Swans Ceo Tom Harley

Hello and welcome to 15 Minutes with the Boss summer series edition.

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Hello and welcome to 15 Minutes with the Boss summer series edition.
Thank you so much for tuning in over the past year, we have so much enjoyed bringing this
content to you.
If you're an avid listener, you may suspect we spend a lot more than just 15 minutes with
our bosses, and you'd be right.
So over the next three weeks, we'll not only be replaying some of our favourite episodes,
but we'll be playing the extended versions of those interviews.
With our usual 15 minute limit, there's a lot of great content that ends up on the cutting
room floor.
So we're really pleased to have the opportunity to share the whole kit and caboodle with you.
Today we're rebroadcasting a conversation with Sydney Swans Chief Executive Tom Harley.
In this episode, not only does Tom talk about a significant failure in his career, losing
the 2008 AFL Grand Final, but he also reflects on what his father taught him and how important
being a role model for his own children is to him.
It was a really wonderful chat and we hope you enjoy it.
And please do let us know if you like these extended conversations on Apple or Spotify,
and we'll be sure to do them again in the future.
Thank you and happy listening.
I fail all the time.
I'm my own harshest critic, so there aren't too many days where I close the day out and
think, I didn't fail at anything.
If you're looking for the silver bullet, you might get it and you might get an unbelievable
sugar hit, but it's not sustainable.
You've just got to grind.
It's about doing and having unwavering confidence that you're on the right path.
Hi I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review, and welcome
to 15 minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything in between.
And along the way, we're aiming to get some great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Tom Harley, chief executive of the Sydney Swans.
Hi, Tom, how are you?
I'm great.
Thanks, Sally.
Great to be here.
Thank you very much for allowing us into your new studio.
It's a beautiful space.
This is my debut in this studio on a podcast.
I've obviously taken a lot of people through it, but we're happy to be hosting you today.
Fantastic.
Now, Tom, as I said, you're the CEO of the Sydney Swans, which is one of 18 AFL clubs.
I should also point out that you are yourself a former player, indeed a former captain of
Geelong, which you led to three successive grand finals and two premierships and making
my mother extremely happy, so thank you for that.
That feels like a lifetime ago now, my playing career, but I've been unbelievably fortunate
to have been involved in something that I love, which is the game of AFL, from a junior
player to a professional player to a broadcaster and now an administrator, so I've lived a
very blessed AFL life.
And thank you for letting us spend 15 minutes with you.
Let's start the clock.
My first question is, what happens in the morning?
What time do you get up?
How do you start your day?
Now, we have had a conversation before, Sally, and I was proudly spruiking the fact that
I was up at 4.30 and I was exercising at five and done by six.
Unfortunately, the gym closed.
Now, that's my excuse.
I'm not as rigid as that, but I still do get up.
I get up early, do exercise in the morning, sometimes passive, sometimes more assertive.
Typically have a coffee with a couple of my very good mates in Balmain and bring one home
for my wife Felicity, make the kids lunch and on occasions a couple of times a week
take the kids to school, if not head straight on to work.
So it's an up early, little bit of exercise, coffee, kids lunch, out the door.
And what does assertive exercise look like and what does passive exercise look like?
The passive exercise is starting to creep into my routine as I get a bit older.
So passive is a walk and a stretch and those sorts of things and more assertive or aggressive
is a cardio blowout.
One of the things I guess coming through an elite athlete path is you do become accustomed
to working out aggressively.
I see a half hour window as not time to flap around, it's time to go pretty hard and that
might be a really aggressive bike, treadmill, rower, cardio type workout.
I know the feeling, I must say, when I get a half hour window, I think, oh, good time
for the couch.
I've been thinking that a lot lately as well, Sally, so don't feel too bad about that.
Welcome to the club.
So Tom, tell me about a pivotal moment in your career that shaped you as a leader or
indeed changed the trajectory of your career.
Yeah, look, I think for me, there was one really clear moment and it was back when I
was an AFL footballer and I was charged with the responsibility of captaining the club.
I was appointed by the CEO at the time, Brian Cook, who's now CEO of Carlton.
Prior to that point in time, I'd been a, I guess what you'd call a role model team
player but then entrusted with leadership and we had some great success and my last
couple of years whilst playing for Geelong and as a result of that, I'm sure, opportunities
presented to me, which I guess set me on a path post-playing.
So I think if I could pinpoint one specific example, it was the phone call that I received
to honor me with the captaincy of Geelong.
And what did you think when that phone call came?
Did you think, yes, I can do it?
Did you think, oh, I'm not sure that I can do it?
Yeah, look, I'd never actually definitively led anything before.
I've never been one that is motivated by definitive leadership or titular leadership
where it's a title or it's all the perks that come with that.
So from that point of view, I was comfortable, I was comfortable with who I was and I guess
I was comfortable with the process that it was in effect endorsed by my peers, which
I think carries significant weight.
And then I was really comfortable also putting my hand up saying, I don't know what I don't
know.
And one of the things I learned really early on in the piece was the power of a group,
particularly when it comes to decision making and standard setting and the like.
And I think one of the things that I've become more comfortable saying that I am comfortable
at is acknowledging where my gaps are and who can help me plug those gaps for the greater
good, not for me, but for the greater good.
So I guess they were the the early learnings from that pivotal moment in my career.
Interesting. So it sounds like you eased into leadership quite naturally.
I certainly didn't strive for it.
I still would like to think I'm relatively young in my professional career.
And from the journey that I've travelled from player to administrator, that's a path
that some current players want to travel as well.
So I've got the great privilege of having conversations now with a number of players
who would like to go down a similar path to me.
And one of the things that I often say to them is, look, just be really clear as to
why you want to do that.
Why do you want to be the CEO of a club or, you know, if you want to go down a coaching
path, why do you want to be the senior coach of the club and make sure that you're confident
and comfortable with those motivations and that they're pure?
And what resonates with me is very much subservient leadership and I'm absolutely motivated by
working for and with others.
And that's certainly the conversation that I would have with current players now just
to try to get some clarity around that.
Yeah, it's good advice.
Understand what your own motivation is.
Yeah, I think so, because when you end up in these sorts of positions and, you know,
I genuinely mean this, I don't want this to sound glib, but I feel unbelievably fortunate
and privileged to be in the position that I'm in.
You know, we're a football club that means a lot to a lot of people.
We've got two million fans around the world.
And the way our teams, both men and women, perform on the weekend can have a pretty profound
impact on the lives of our fans on the Sunday and the Monday and how they start their week.
So that's not lost on me.
And therefore, I am really clear as to what motivates me or what should motivate me to
do my job.
OK, my next question is, what is the best piece of career advice you've ever been
given?
There is one that stands out more so than any other.
And that's when you're charged with the responsibility of making a decision, a career decision.
The advice given to me was any decision that's anchored to your family is a good one.
It was given to me by Brian Cook, who was CEO of Geelong.
And I had retired and I'd moved cities to Sydney and I'd started a family in Sydney
and there were opportunities to do some other things.
And ultimately, as a family, we decided that we were going to put down our foundations
in Sydney as a family.
And therefore, once that decision is made, the reality is that will probably put some
ceilings on some of the paths that you can go down.
I guess that makes it really easy for you in a sense that you know exactly what your
priority is.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
There's a great book called The Road to Character.
The author's a guy, David Brooks.
He's an ex-army general in the States.
And he speaks about when it comes to decision-making around prioritising your loves, right?
And so you might have 10 and you list them out.
It might be family, profession, art, music, socialising, whatever.
And when you're faced with a decision, you just make sure that your priorities are in
order and therefore you can go to bed really comfortable knowing that you've made the right
decision.
And that's really at the end of the day, all you need to be comfortable with.
I love that.
Okay, Tom, stay right where you are.
We're going to take a short break.
And when we come back, we're going to open this beautiful cardboard chatterbox.
I look forward to it.
Hello and welcome back to 15 minutes with the boss.
I'm here with Tom Harley, the chief executive of the Sydney Swans.
Now, Tom, this is our section called the chatterbox.
In front of you, you will see a lovely cardboard box, which we borrowed from your reception
downstairs.
It's resplendent, this box, Sally.
It's magnificent, isn't it?
It's magnificent.
Inside are 20 questions all printed on little bits of paper and wrapped up.
I'd now like to ask you to select three questions one by one.
I'm going to read them to you and ask you to answer them.
So I'm going to give them to you?
You are.
Okay.
I'm not looking.
No, no, exactly not allowed to look.
Do you want all three at the one time?
No, one by one.
One by one.
Okay.
Do you have a favourite productivity hack to help you get more out of your day?
One thing that I did recently was I deleted all social media apps by LinkedIn off my phone.
I cancelled all push notifications that weren't really, really important.
And then as the weeks that have unfold, you get the weekly screen time report and I just
found that my time on my device was down.
And so for me, my productivity absolutely went through the roof, both at work, but also
more importantly, just the mental space and the mental load that I guess consuming through
your device, consuming content through your device creates.
So I took a hell of a lot of time back.
And did you get off social media because you wanted to save time or there are other factors?
That was purely time.
I was just doom scrolling and I just didn't need to do that.
And I thought, you know, if I want to go and find something in this day and age, you can
go and find it.
I don't miss it at all.
I do occasionally have to insert myself in a conversation and say, hey, what did that?
What did our post look like?
How did it come out from a work point of view?
But as I say, if you really want to find something out, I think you can find it.
That's good advice, actually.
I can't even quantify the time, but that's time I can take back that might make me more
present in a conversation at work, conversation at home, time away from the gym could be anything
like that.
So ultimately that's productivity.
Devices, are they banned from the bedroom or not?
Because I get up early, I do need an alarm to wake me up.
And I got into this great habit 12 months ago with a smartwatch as my alarm.
So it would vibrate on my wrist.
And then for whatever reason, I just stopped wearing that device and then I got back into
the habit of having my phone there and I now need to break that habit.
So I would say devices out of the bedroom, absolutely.
But I've got to start practicing what I preach with that.
But you still need an Apple watch to for your alarm.
That's true.
So when I was wearing the Apple watch as an alarm, it was again, I'm not overly tech savvy.
It was Wi-Fi off, airplane mode, blah, blah, all these sorts of things that it didn't ping.
The only thing it did was wake me up silently with the buzz on my on my wrist.
And that's something that I am contemplating getting back into.
Oh, I like that.
So an Apple watch without the stuff turned on is not a device.
Well, it's not.
And it sort of defeats the purpose of it, doesn't it?
I got myself a smartwatch when it was a thing a couple of years ago.
And within a week, it was just pinging and buzzing and everything was going on.
And then a friend of mine said, well, just put it in airplane mode.
So I did put it in airplane mode.
And then I thought, well, it's just a watch.
And I prefer an analog watch.
And so I started wearing an analog watch.
And I thought, well, that's a very expensive alarm clock if I'm only using it to vibrate
on my wrist.
So I'll land in the right landing spot with my wake up routine that doesn't devolve.
It doesn't involve devices.
We might have to invite you back on the podcast in six months time.
That's right.
So you see how I go.
Yeah.
That's a good question.
Do you want to have a fish around in the box?
Okay.
Who is the person outside of the business world you most admire and why?
Well, that is a good question outside of the business world.
Look, I'm going to say my dad.
Why is that?
Oh, look, I think as a parent now, my kids are 10, 8 and 5.
And I know how much of an emphasis I put on my role as a role model.
And then you can't help but reflect on the role that my parents played.
And one of the things I have said about my old man before is that he's at retirement
age and he tells me he's retired.
I'm not necessarily sure he's totally off the tools, but he's still very much connected
into his community.
And a lot of his community lives in Adelaide, a lot of his community is connected to work.
And I said to him, I have described him once as someone who very, very, very rarely almost
never says a bad word about anyone.
Like he starts from a disposition is generally positive.
So that's something that I've always admired in my old man.
And often you might sit back and reflect, say, well, what would he do right now?
And then I ask him and I don't agree with what he says anyway.
And he'll admit to that.
But no, he's certainly one.
So is that something that you've tried to adopt?
Don't say something nasty about other people.
If you can't say it, if you can't say something nice, don't say it at all.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the reality is we all, you know, this is probably getting a bit
grandiose and a bit altruistic, but life's all about choices and you've got choices to
make and you can choose to go down that particular path.
And that might be vitriol or it might be unkind.
But I generally try to look on the positive and glass half full side of the world.
It's good advice. Life's really too short.
Yeah, you do. I mean, I do believe this.
I do believe you know, and this is not belittling some of the very complex
matters involving mental health.
But on the assumption that one's mental health is OK, you fundamentally are making
choices and you can choose how you front up to a room, to a meeting, how you greet
people, what energy you put into said task.
And I generally choose to front up to most things positively.
I like that. I'm going to try and adopt that even when I'm tired.
I can tell you're smiling.
OK, next question from the chatterbox.
Did you take a sneak peek on the way through?
No, I didn't have a look.
So, Tom, how do you make tough decisions or manage conflict?
Oh, now that is a good one.
I think the first I think the first thing in any team
and a team can be a sports team, an organisation can be a family,
is the acknowledgement that conflict is inevitable.
And often talk to teams, my team and say, who likes conflict here?
I reckon in a room of about 30, you generally get one person put their hand up.
That's probably about right.
My experience is about one in 30 people really like conflict.
Most of us don't.
I run a mile.
Yeah, well, there you go. That's that as as to most people.
And but I think the reality is it's inevitable.
Certainly, if you want to be a high performing team, you've got to acknowledge
that it's inevitable. And the best way to address conflict, again,
from a textbook point of view, and I'd love to say I put my hand up
and say I do this every time, but there are times where I run a mile
like everyone else does, is to have, let's call it a
a set of behavioural framework.
And this can present as values, trademark behaviours or whatever.
It's almost like you're your MO as a team and you have a conversation
specific to performance that are within those boundaries.
And you've got to spend a bit of time creating those boundaries.
And so if I use the sports analogy in coming through my time at Geelong
and my time at the Sydney Swans is, you know, we talk about trademark
behaviours that basically the non-negotiables to be a part of that team.
And it's not a wordsmith exercise.
It is literally what are the very descriptive behaviours
to be a member of this team?
And generally, conflict is addressing conflict is when someone
or a group of people have stepped beyond those behaviours.
And then you have the conversation within the framework of those behaviours.
So that would be my tip on managing conflict.
So what are those boundaries that you're talking about?
The boundaries of behaviour?
Yeah. So that's that's that's I mean, it's the way the one of the ways
in determining what they are is get your group together.
And you've got to spend some time to do this with a team and ask the team
and say, in an ideal world, how would you want us to be perceived?
Three words, curious, disciplined, respectful.
Right now, how do you think we are described?
Mundane, a bit lazy, polite.
And then you have a conversation about the gap between the two.
And therefore, what behaviours do you need to demonstrate
as an individual to be a member of this team?
That that that that and what behaviours won't be tolerated
if you are to be a member of this team that that that.
And then you can knock that around.
It's a it's a bit of a process, but you knock that around and you leave
being really clear on who you are and what you stand for
and what's accepted and what's not.
And once you've got those clear boundaries lined,
you can have a conversation when people step out of that.
And the conversation is related just to performance.
Take the personality out of it.
You have the conversation about performance.
And what happens if people just don't agree on something
and they've both got quite legitimate arguments
and the conflict is they just don't agree
and they might both be being curious and loyal and all those things?
Yeah, I think I mean, there are there are lots of hacks around around that.
And the beauty, I think the beauty of the high performing teams
that I admire from afar and I aspire to be a part of
has that diversity.
And but one of the traits that I think the really great teams
do have is cabinet solidarity where you might disagree.
And and hopefully, you know, you do disagree on certain things.
Can be positive, right?
That's absolutely can be positive.
But if you can, if you can leave a decision, like as a really,
really crude example, there might be a decision
and you've got seven people in the room.
You're throwing it around.
Four might agree with it. Three might disagree.
But as soon as you walk out the door, it's sevens.
Manage the conflict internally.
But once you're out the door, we're all on the same page.
And is there a secret to managing that conflict?
Open and honest conversation.
Yeah, open and honest conversation.
And, you know, and there are so there are so many things that go into that.
And I'm not sure whether we're on camera here,
but I'm going to put my hand up and say, I'm not an expert at any of this.
But if you can create an environment
where people who are involved in that conversation feel comfortable and safe
to genuinely put forward their views without fear or favour,
then I think you can have a really robust discussion that is honest,
coming from a good place.
But ultimately, conflict is about resolution.
And sometimes sometimes as a member of a team,
you're going to have to go against the tide and go with other people
to be part of that time.
But that's the key, isn't it?
It's got to come from the right place.
And the team has got to understand that it is coming from the right place.
Yeah. And I think there's a real art.
I really admire people who can facilitate those team conversations really well.
They're the best leaders.
They're the ones that I sort of look up to and that have just an almost
it's almost an innate ability to
manage conversations with different personality types,
give everyone enough time to put forward their view,
enough oxygen to to get their point across, shape it around ultimately.
And then you're looking upon reflection, say he or she got exactly
where they wanted to get to at the end of that.
But they've given everyone a voice along the way.
And I think they're the most inspiring and inspirational leaders.
Great. I love that.
Next question. Have a bit of a fish around.
Tell me about a time where you failed at something.
How did you recover and what did you learn?
I fail all the time.
I'm sure you don't.
I do. I do. I'm my own harshest critic.
So as far as, you know, one singular fail that springs to mind
and maybe our AFL listeners might understand this.
But in 2008, playing for Geelong,
we lost a grand final when we were the overwhelming favourites.
And your mother-in-law would have been pretty annoyed about that.
But it's actually less about the failure.
It's it's how you reflect on that to ultimately be better the next day.
And one thing I think that failure does present is a more
critical lens on learnings.
When you're in flow and you're constantly winning inverted commas
and getting results, you can let yourself slip on some of those standards.
I was talking about before.
However, when you fail, it's just human nature to critique that a little bit further.
So certainly from a playing point of view, losing games and AFL football
more broadly is a results based industry and it's very public.
And we have to reflect all the time.
And it's just as important to reflect when you win.
But certainly when you lose, it provides a more critical landscape
to address the things that you can do better.
So the lesson then is not to become complacent.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
I love Simon Sinek as an author.
He's got a myriad of great books.
One of them is called The Infinite Game, which is just about literally
being better today than you were yesterday.
So live in the moment.
But know that at the end of the day, you've made gains.
And then the sum of those incremental gains leads to great things.
Yeah, it's that incremental part that I love.
Yeah, it is. And the incremental part, I think, Sally, is requires patience.
You know, if you're looking for the silver bullet, you might get it
and you might get an unbelievable sugar hit, but it's not sustainable.
You just got to grind.
You know, it's about doing and having unwavering confidence.
You're on the right path. Yeah. OK.
Patience. I will take that away with me.
My last question is, if we gave you a month off unencumbered,
you could do anything you wanted. What would you do?
I would go skiing for a month.
I would go the northern atmosphere somewhere, probably Canada.
For me, I came across snow skiing late
after I'd finished as an athlete, and it satisfied immediately
that competitive edge that is just so deeply ingrained in me.
Who can get down the hill first?
Absolutely. Yeah, absolute speed over substance and style.
It's a great combination of just being free and expressing yourself as an athlete.
So it's this amazing sport for the skiers out there.
And now that I go skiing with my family, that you can do it as a group.
But the reality is, when you're on the hill, you're really by yourself.
And so you've got you've got, you know, you've got a sense of community.
You got a sense of adrenaline and sport and exercise.
And then just the wide expanses as well.
So, yeah, I wouldn't have to think too for too long to suggest that as a month.
Do you head for the moguls or no moguls?
No moguls, no moguls. I've got I've got dodgy knees.
So no, I prefer the nice groomed runs of Whistler Blackcomb.
Tom, that's our time up.
Thank you so much for allowing us to spend time with you.
I love the fact that you are beginning to slow down physically as you get older.
It makes me feel slightly better.
I love your positivity.
I love what you're trying to do with your devices and social media.
And I love the way that you put family first to make that the center of every decision.
So thank you so much.
And I look forward to seeing how you get on with your devices in the bedroom.
So do I. Thanks for having me, Sally.
Thank you for tuning in to our summer series.
We hope you enjoy that extended chat with Tom Harley from the Sydney Swans.
Be sure to check back in next week when we replay our extended chat
with Google Managing Director Melanie Silva.
At The Financial Review, we investigate the big stories about markets, business and power.
You can subscribe to The Financial Review,
The Daily Habit of Successful People at AFR.com forward slash subscribe.
This podcast was hosted by me, Sally Patton, produced and edited by LAPFAN.
Our theme is by Alex Gale and our executive producer is Fiona Buffini.
The Australian Financial Review.
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