I have interviewed so many people and I actually take this one lesson from an interview that
I had many, many years ago.
They would say, we look at candidates, we ask all the really right questions, we drill
them, but there's one thing that you probably aren't aware of that is the ultimate test
of whether you get hired here or not.
This is going to sound so contradictory because how much I care about people.
I really don't like people management.
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review.
And welcome to 15 minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything
And along the way, we're hoping to get some great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Sallyanne Williams, the chief executive of Cicada Innovations.
Hi Sallyanne, how are you?
Hello, I'm great.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much for coming in.
Now Sallyanne, you're the chief executive of Cicada Innovations, a builder of science
and engineering based businesses.
In the 24 years Cicada has been running, it has provided support to more than 400 companies,
four of which have won the prime minister's prize for science.
Are you a real science nerd yourself?
I'm an absolute curiosity nerd, which does tend to lend itself very well into the sciences
and engineering areas and the STEM fields.
Okay, on that note, we've only got 15 minutes.
The clock starts now.
My first question is about your morning routine.
What time do you get up?
Do you have a cup of coffee before you do anything else?
I love getting up at 5 a.m.
I love starting the day with as much routine, but also space for my brain.
And so I get up, I brush the teeth, get out the doors and either run or do some sort of
Pilates or weight training, there's some sort of physical activity with generally no
music to just let my brain wake up and let my body wake up at the same time.
I am trying really hard not to open a device and not to look at email, not to look at news,
not to do anything digitally until I'm actually ready to start my day workwise, because there's
a lot of science that shows that's better for a whole bunch of things physically as
well as psychologically.
So does that mean you don't look at your device until you have, say, had a shower and
had your breakfast and done all those things and actually at your desk?
That is something that I've been trying to be very disciplined on.
And when I do, the days that I do, I am so much better at decision making.
I'm so much better at showing up for my team, so much better at showing up for my partner
and for my family and friends.
And it really makes a change in how I am in every single circumstance.
So if you don't look at your device until you actually start work, you actually are
By not doing it, that actually has a similar response in both your brain and in your body
about calming you and putting you into a place where you are able to be able to be reasoned
and actually be able to respond versus react to situations.
So it's almost meditation without actually having to meditate.
And that fits me so much better because I'm not very good at sitting still.
I'm going to try that.
Tell me about a pivotal moment in your career that somehow changed the trajectory of what
you were doing or changed you in some big way.
So actually, this goes back into sort of my late teens just getting ready to go to university.
And I was involved in a volunteer organisation that worked with young people.
And I was asked to step up into a leadership role.
The person that was running this organisation, when I expressed all of my fears and my concerns
and my doubts, he articulated to me the strengths and the things that he saw in me and how I
I learnt a lot about myself.
But the biggest thing it was, is it set off in me a little path to self-reflection.
I would say that I've always continued forward in my career of kind of going, what is it
that I'm really good at and what can I bring to this situation?
Because sometimes the greatest skills that you actually have are not obvious ones.
It's not the degree.
It's not the qualification or the certification in something.
It is the way that you reason or the way that you practice adaptive leadership or a skill
that you have in being able to elevate up to the, you know, sort of the 30,000 foot view,
but then dive down to the devil with details down the bottom operationally and bounce back up
again. And those sorts of things are really tricky to understand about yourself.
And they're really tricky to articulate to other people.
And I feel like that moment, when I think about it, started me on the journey of, you know,
really continually over time, reflecting on those things and challenging myself to seek
people to help me get an outside perspective on the skills that I have and how I might bring them
to the table in whatever roles and opportunities that are in front of me.
So if I said to you, what are your, say, two or three most important or best skills?
What would you say? How would you articulate it?
Because I think that's a really good lesson.
Yeah. So one of my best skills, I think, is I do really have the ability to very quickly
grapple with a large complex problem and see the end state of where we need to get to and work backwards from there
and articulate sort of that high level roadmap.
The challenge where I've had to learn and develop the skill along the way is then how do you bring people in the room
and in the team and in the organisation with you on that journey?
Because generally that journey can take, you know, a year, five years, ten years.
And so you have to kind of meet people where they're at with their comfort levels and navigate them through that.
I think the second skill that I really know that I'm good at is I really thrive in the grey.
There's a lot of people out there that need really clearly defined roles and responsibilities,
and they want it in absolute black and white.
I love the grey. I love going, you know what, rather than solve this,
let's really figure out what we're trying to solve because actually wrestling with and articulating that problem is the hardest thing to do.
So the unknown, the unfamiliar, the yet to be written paths is a place that is super comfortable for me.
And it's actually exciting. And I get a huge amount of energy from it.
So are they the two key skills that you need for great leadership?
I don't think it's the case for every single leader that they are the only two skills you need.
I think there's a lot more that you need. But in the field that I'm working in, those two things,
I would say those two attributes of what I see in the founders and the leadership teams that I work with,
because they have to sit in that place of unknown.
And there's this really great speech when Kennedy said, in this decade, we're going to put a man on the moon.
It's actually the next sentence that was really, really important, which I love, is,
we don't know how we're going to do it, but we're going to do it anyway.
And I think that's what living in the grey, you don't live there all the time because it actually becomes very clear.
But you have to know that you're not going to have all of the answers and to start on the journey for them to actually unfold.
And that terrifies some people.
And so how do you as a leader then bring them on the journey and let them contribute to their comfort level along the way?
You know, that's that's the challenge that I think myself and all of the companies that we work with,
you know, follow in the years to come as we sort of build these businesses.
You know, I can see that. That's great. OK, my next question.
What is the best piece of career advice you've ever received?
The best piece of career advice I've ever received is don't just know what you're good at,
but know your values and know what is important to you and what isn't important to you.
So what's important to you?
Number one for me is the people that I work with.
I love respectful debate and conversation where you've got a very clear,
aligned mission or vision that you're trying to work towards,
but you've got very different skill sets and people around the table.
And, you know, if we get into difficulty, will we stand together and work together?
That's number one for me.
The second one for me is can I contribute?
That's not always an executive role. I can do that in boards.
I can do that in advisory work. I can do that in a 15 minute conversation, hopefully.
And the third one is I really believe in good governance and really good process.
So if I believe an organisation isn't being governed well
and we're not living up to the standards that we say and we set,
I will call that out. I will move to drive change.
Our words and our actions need to line up.
And this is where I think the role of boards and governance and leadership
and accountability needs to be strengthened in Australia.
There should be provisions for people to be able to raise issues safely and respectfully
and have them address in our workplaces.
And yet that's not always happening.
On that note, Sallyanne, stay right where you are.
We are going to take a short break.
And when we come back, we're going to open the famous chatterbox.
Welcome back to 15 Minutes with the Boss.
I am here with Sallyanne Williams, the chief executive of Cicada Innovations.
Sallyanne, this is our section called the chatterbox.
Now, Sallyanne, in front of you is this lovely brown box
inside which I would say are about 15 questions all folded up on pieces of paper.
So please go ahead, have a forage.
OK. What is your greatest fear?
My greatest fear is disappointing people.
You know, one of my key drivers is serving others and serving my community.
And yet I recognise I can't be all things to all people.
And so as much as I want to be there and serve in the fullest capacity,
I'm always going to get it wrong or fall short a little bit.
And so just being comfortable with that's OK.
Actually, rare I need to do is go, have I shown up as best as I possibly can
and be really satisfied in myself with that.
So do you make a conscious effort to prioritise those things,
like what you care about first and what's going to take priority
in terms of where you apply your energy?
I try. In all honesty, the biggest failure in that for me
historically is prioritising myself and my own well-being and health.
And I think that's common to a lot of leaders.
And I think it's probably common to a lot of women in particular.
And that is something that I've actively been working on
because of some health journeys this last year to really understand that,
you know, you can't be there for others if you're not there for yourself first.
But it's a lot of unlearning that you have to do.
Any type you have a fear, it's a lot of unlearning and reprogramming.
It's so how do you calm that immediate response pattern
that you've trained yourself from wherever you've learned that pattern
or that behaviour? Now, it could be fear of spiders.
It could be, you know, fear of public speaking or maths or whatever.
How do you press the pause button long enough to actually go,
I'm going to create a different pathway in my brain,
I'm going to rewire my brain and actually start behaving
and showing up differently and not judge myself as being selfish for doing so.
And so reprioritising time for yourself.
Absolutely. My health and my well-being, number one.
I love that. OK, next question. Have a go.
OK. What part of your job don't you like?
This is going to sound so contradictory
to what everything I've just said, because how much I care about people
and getting the best out of them.
I really don't like people management.
I think I hear that quite a lot, actually.
I love people. I love getting the best out of them.
I love supporting them. I love cheerleading them.
I love championing them.
But the mechanisms of people management and actually spending the time on it,
I really struggle with the relationship side of people.
I love the formal management piece of it is probably the bit
that I'm less enthused with.
So is it that process that you don't like?
I think so. I think so.
And I think it's something that it's really critical in the role that I'm in.
But it's the bit that really is not my natural state
to sit in those processes and spend time in them.
And so I find that, you know, the discipline of doing that
and trying to do it well, because it is an important part of what I do,
is probably the hardest part of my job for me.
Yeah. OK. Understood. Have another go. OK.
What should you not do when applying for a job and going for an interview?
I have interviewed so many people and I actually take this one lesson
from an interview that I had many, many years ago of my career.
And it struck me of one of the things that they did.
They would say, we have great interview processes.
We look at candidates.
We ask all the really right questions.
We drill them. We may get them to prepare stuff.
And they said, but there's one thing that you probably aren't aware of
that is the ultimate test of whether you get hired here or not.
And I said, what is it?
And they said, it's the thumbs up or thumbs down from how you treat the receptionist.
And I thought this was so fascinating.
So how you treat the person on the front desk when you show up
for an interview and how rude or how friendly you are
really is going to dictate how successful you'll be in an organisation
that I'm leading, because if you're not willing to roll up your sleeves
and contribute and if you're not willing to jump into whatever's needed
alongside of me, alongside of my my executive leadership team,
then you probably don't have quite the right attributes
that we're looking for in how we want you to show up.
And so I will pass on brilliant people who might have great technical skills
if they don't have the right attitude.
So they used to do a thumbs up or thumbs down behind the candidates back
as you walked into interview from the receptionist.
And I said, oh, my God, what happened when I was interviewed?
And they went, oh, you got the double thumbs up.
Like, I don't know what I've done.
I think I just said hello and been friendly.
I was just curious about it.
I was like, how long have you been here and what are you doing?
How is that? You know, how you treat her is how we see
whether you've got the right attributes on on.
Very interesting. Very interesting.
So on that note, Sally, and congratulations.
That is the end of the chatterbox section.
You've passed with flying colors. Thank you.
I have one more question to ask you, and that is
if we were the holiday gods and we gave you a year off,
you were totally unencumbered. What would you do?
I have worked continuously my whole life from jobs outside of school
and in high school all the way through.
And I would like to take some time and space to rewire
and reprogram my brain to think differently,
to jump off the hamster wheel and give opportunity for it
to get curious about the world and learn about others.
So I would probably take some time volunteering.
I'm a diver. I love the ocean.
I love sort of the marine world.
There's lots of conservation projects you can combine with to go and do that.
And being underwater brings me joy.
I would find ways to give myself space to breathe mentally
and to create space to maybe see if something else
emerges in terms of interests, desires, passions,
skills that I want to do and then follow that.
And that could be quite difficult if you're someone who's used to always
having their space filled. How does that even feel?
Absolutely. It's slightly terrifying, but also I am really convicted
by the science of what you should do in seeking out that space.
Right. Again, it's a little bit of it's almost like creating space
is a mindfulness activity and a meditation activity without filling it
with those things.
But also what happens to your brain when you allow boredom to surface.
That's generally when the greatest creative urges come up.
And if I think back to my various earliest stage as a child,
you know, I didn't have all of these video games and all of these online
distractions. So we would go out as kids and we would play.
Now, imaginations ran wild.
And that's something that I see a great absence of as an adult.
And so how do you create enough space to have that side of your brain
reemerge and really go? What would that look like?
But, you know, maybe we can get the holiday gods to let us go
on an adventure like that and see what emerges.
And that, Sallyanne, is our time up.
Sallyanne, thank you so much for coming in to see us today.
I love the way that you are really conscious of the skills
and the values that you bring to an organization and you really understand
what's important to you.
I think the way you clearly thrive in the gray zone
and the great unknown is amazing.
You don't need to be called a leader to be a leader.
I think that is a really good piece of advice for lots of people.
I love your advice about the need to be nice to everybody,
including the receptionist.
There is no excuse for rudeness in this world.
So thank you again so much for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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This podcast was hosted by me, Sally Patton, and produced and edited by Lapfan.
Video and audio assistance.
And our music theme is by Alex Gao.
And our executive producer is Fiona Buffini.
The Australian Financial Review.