Instead of a 50-50 relationship where everyone's looking for equity and balance, the 80-80 marriage
was just an amazing aha moment.
A lot of people assume that a CEO needs to be perfect or complete as an end-to-end leader
in every respect, and I think that's just fundamentally flawed.
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review, and welcome
to 15 Minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything in between.
And along the way, we're hoping to get some really great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Jason Johnson, the founder and CEO of Johnson Partners.
Great to be here.
Thank you so much for coming in.
As I said, you're the CEO of Johnson Partners, which is an executive recruitment firm.
Over the past 20 years, you've appointed 2,000 executives and 500 directors to organizations
across Australia.
You have a staff of 34, and some of your major clients include Westpac and Super Retail Group
with Jones Rebel Sport and the outdoor clothing company Macpac.
And I believe your firm is growing pretty quickly, so congratulations.
And I'm sure you've got lots of advice on job hunting for senior executives, so I'm
looking forward to a bit of advice later on.
I look forward to sharing it.
On that note, our time starts now.
The clock is running.
My first question is about your morning routine.
What does it look like?
What time do you get up?
I've always been an early riser.
Another early riser.
So it normally has a four in front of it.
I'll be out of bed.
I have a six-year-old son, four children, a six-year-old son, Jagger, who often joins
me in the fives for breakfast.
And I'll often drop Jagger early to school and then head off, if it's one of my work
from home days, for a run around the headland at Bondi.
For what do you get up for?
I like to read the newspapers, so I'll read the New York Times pretty much front to back
and the AFR front to back somewhere between 4 and 5.30 in the morning.
And then I kind of have some intentional time to reflect on the day ahead.
And how long would you spend doing that?
Oh, three or four minutes where I reflect on what's required of me and how I need to
And that I find really grounding and just helps set up the day.
So then you'll have breakfast with your son at five something?
Five thirty, six o'clock typically.
And if I'm eating that morning, I would eat breakfast most mornings, but I fast one or
two mornings a week, which I find is a really great way of just resetting the body, particularly
after the weekend.
And then you go for a jog once you get to the office?
Well, I work from home typically two days a week and that balance has been really lovely.
So on those days I can get out around the headland and I find that an incredibly meditative
For me, that's one of the periods in my week where I just let the mind go and it's a very
And some of my best thinking comes on that headland.
Interesting. OK, next, tell me about a pivotal moment in your career, something that happened,
a project perhaps that you took on that changed the trajectory of what you were doing.
The most fundamental change for me, I started life as a lawyer and had the privilege of
working for Alan Allen and Hemsley as it was.
And now Alan's great law firm, a great place to learn.
But I didn't feel my life purpose being really energised and enabled in that role, not
withstanding the great mentors and great work I had to do.
And as a 28 year old, I made probably the most mature decision and impactful decision
of my life, which was to step out of a great law firm and legal career into the executive
And from a career perspective, put aside some of the family decisions I've made, it was
fundamentally life changing.
I loved engaging with people.
The practice of law is less about people centric engagement.
And when I found my way to the executive search industry, I felt my life purpose kind of
So why did you go for executive search?
What was it about that industry that attracted you?
The thing that is the most rewarding is looking at the organisations, whether it be a major
ASX 10 or a for purpose organisation, and seeing those organisations outperform their
competitors in the listed environment, or if they're a for purpose organisation, delivers
here their stakeholders in a way that they had never imagined they were able to do.
And the difference between a good and a great CEO is quite remarkable.
And so building leadership teams, building cohesive, diverse, inclusive leadership teams
that then outperform their wildest dreams, that's incredibly exciting when it all comes
Next, what is the best piece of career advice you've ever received?
The advice which I now give to people is to be brave and courageous in respect of career,
follow your heart, not just your head, your head and heart.
And that was the decision I made as the 28 year old.
If you want to find something that aligns with your sense of purpose, and I talk about
life purpose, when you find that alignment, things open in a way that you couldn't imagine.
And so I think finding something that is you feel both passionate about, where you feel
you're really opening to it, where you bring skills and capability or could learn and align
with the skills and capability required in that sector, and then to be brave, particularly
for younger people, the world's your oyster.
So take those brave steps where you have less of the family and other obligations around
you and just step bravely into those to pursue your passions.
And what would you say is your purpose in life, given that you have talked about purpose
My purpose in the work context is very much around leading people to enable them to achieve
You know, I often say to graduates, you can have influence at board and CEO levels.
You're invited into boardrooms in your first weeks in the executive search industry.
The opportunity for influence and impact is quite amazing.
You meet the best and brightest.
You learn so much working with organisations of all different shapes, sizes, ownership
structures, and you get to have the greatest possible impact, which is building leadership
teams or boards for organisations.
McKinsey writes great strategy.
PwC does great accounting work.
Allen's does great legal work.
But none of those impact an organisation in the same way that a great executive search
On that note, we're going to take a short break, but don't go away.
We will come back, I promise.
And we're going to open our delightful Chatterbox.
Welcome back to 15 minutes with the boss.
I'm here with Jason Johnson, the CEO of Johnson Partners.
Now, Jason, as promised, here is our Chatterbox session.
In front of you is this brown box with about 15 questions.
We're going to start another Q&A section.
No, I get to read the questions.
Thanks very much.
What's your favourite podcast or streaming show and why?
Yeah, my wife, Portia, is a relationship counsellor and Portia ensures that I have a
ready series of podcasts around relationships and relationships are not just about your
romantic relationship.
You know, you can draw so many parallels back into the workplace.
So I would say a number of those have been revelatory for me and have made me a better
Well, I guess at its core, it's about being vulnerable, being authentic.
You know, I grew up probably demonstrating less of each of those attributes.
And, you know, as I have matured both as a father and and a leader, they are both so
important to the really honest fabric of the whether it be the family or the work
relationships that I have.
Interesting. And can you point to one or two that have really benefited you or that
you've really liked?
So I read the book rather than the actually I did listen to the podcast as well.
The 80 80 marriage.
And that talks about this notion that rather than a relationship and again, you don't
have to think about romantic relationship, but it's certainly very relevant for that.
But instead of a 50 50 relationship where everyone's looking for equity and balance
just to have radical generosity in what you do.
And that for me was just an amazing aha moment.
So, you know, at a very trivial level, whether it's unpacking a dishwasher or walking
the dog or taking the kids to school or whatever that element of the family
contribution is to do it with an open heart and just in such generous spirit.
And then all that sort of measuring of of contribution just washes away.
And I think that's incredibly powerful.
That is a really, really lovely idea.
An 80 80 relationship where you're giving 80 percent of yourself, you're not just
hanging around to try and make sure it's an absolute equilibrium, give more.
Indeed. And there are some days where you'll have 80 percent to give and other days
where you'll have 20 percent to give.
And that's when you need to just call out to your partner or your colleague at work
and say, look, today I'm just I just don't have the energy.
But, you know, I'll be there for you tomorrow.
And it's just this notion that you're kind of constantly regulating and giving more
when possible. And it just it just lights up relationships.
Fantastic. I love it. OK.
Have another fish in the box.
Thank you. What are some of the mistakes
that even very senior people make when they go to an interview?
I assume that even senior people must make mistakes from time to time.
It happens frequently.
And, you know, I think the thing to remember is that any recruitment process,
no matter how senior, whether it's the CEO of a major bank in Australia or a telco,
there still needs to be a degree of romance in that you've got two parties that want
to build rapport and actually be invested in the process.
And and sometimes people, you know, feel they need to be a bit standoffish
to demonstrate they're not too keen or they're still in a due diligence phase
So they don't make enough of an effort to develop a rapport with somebody.
Indeed. And there's lack of enthusiasm that's that's demonstrated.
And then there might be a sense of lack of conviction.
So I would. Sounds like a teenage romance, actually.
And so I would always say to someone that's going for a really meaningful
interview, prepare for it and and show up like you really want the role.
It's always you can always turn down the opportunity,
but you're actually going to get the best out of that by turning up
and showing up as though you want it.
And people on the other side want to feel that energy.
They want to feel the conviction.
They want to feel your vision, you know, the ideas that you've got
rather than you sitting there and just sort of being a sponge.
And so and I've seen some very, very talented people that just mismanage
that part and then be surprised when they're not invited to move forward.
And to what extent would executives be required to say what they would do
if they got the job, like have a, you know, a 12 month plan
or a bit of a vision for what they would do?
Yeah. So we when we run CEO succession processes,
that's a very fundamental part of the process.
And below the CEO?
Yes. Often, if you're talking about a very
significant C-suite role, then you'll often get them to present a plan
or a vision or ideas.
But at the CEO level, you know, we'll often choreograph
a approach where they're presenting to the board.
It's a synthetic board situation, but nevertheless, it's the closest
to reality, a CEO presenting a new strategy.
So strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats,
you know, their vision for the organisation.
So, you know, I think we often design similar processes
for other C-suite roles, but it's absolutely fundamental
in those CEO processes.
And do you ask people of all levels to or do you encourage people
of all levels to ask questions during the interview of the company?
In fact, I think that's really important that they demonstrate their maturity.
They demonstrate that they've done the research and homework and that they've
they're actually curious, I think, for young people.
And we hire a bunch of grads each year.
The ones that we're most drawn to are those that are curious,
that do turn up and ask questions.
And they're really thoughtful questions nowadays.
And quite a few of them are using AI now to to help them prepare
for interviews and the quality of questions we're getting
from some of the younger people is quite breathtaking.
So do you recommend that even sort of fairly senior leaders
use AI to help them formulate questions or help them form part of the interview?
Absolutely. I would be we use copilot in our organisation.
I'd be using copilot to give me a set of interview questions.
I would, after having done an analysis on the organisation,
I would have had it scan the annual report, scan investor presentations
and then maybe pose it as an analyst and ask me as an analyst
to ask me a series of questions about the organisation.
So the AI tools are incredible now.
And I think any senior exec or board member
going for a through a process like this could get a lot of value from that.
Fantastic. I love that.
OK, have a fish, Jason.
Let's let's have another question.
What's a misconception that people have about CEOs?
A lot of people assume that a CEO needs to be perfect or complete
as an end to end leader in every respect.
And I think that's just fundamentally flawed.
When we as an executive search firm work with a client,
we're thinking about the complementarity of skills
and the diversity of thought around a leadership team.
And the CEO is about bringing all of that together,
but doesn't have to be a fully formed person, you know, in every respect.
You can always augment if they're not strong on financial acumen.
You can always ensure that you've got a great CFO alongside them.
Or if, you know, as we find sometimes, particularly in some of the tech industries,
you find someone who may not have the same level of EQ
and familiarity with dealing with sort of scale people issues
and make sure they've got a great CFO that sort of brings heart and empathy.
And so, you know, I think the just making sure that whatever
environment is around a CEO complements them and makes them
it's the unity of the team that makes the whole not the CEO themselves.
And so they don't need to be perfect or the full like the full picnic themselves.
Indeed. And, you know, I think this notion that you have to be a Pollyanna
CEO, that nothing's ever wrong.
I think, you know, we're beyond that now.
Let's just have honest conversations.
And the market prefers that customers prefer that staff prefer that
when we're looking for the ideal CEO, we want someone that's that can have
that authentic level of dialogue with all stakeholders.
OK, yeah, that's good advice.
On that note, Jason, the chatterbox section is now over and done with.
Well done. I now have one last question, which we ask all our guests,
and that is if you weren't the CEO of Johnson Partners,
what would you be doing?
One of the things that I reflect on is that I haven't
maintained my friendship, core friendships
in the way that I could have.
And I'm really reflective about the next phase.
I want to make sure that I'm a better friend and a more consistent friend.
So do you think could you and could you see yourself doing another business?
I would probably find myself mentoring others to be successful in their businesses.
And I think I'd have a lot to give.
There aren't that many people who have been successful building firms
in this part of the region that have had the success that our firms had.
And so I'd love to impart some of those learnings and many of the mistakes
I've made, you know, so that others wouldn't make those same mistakes
and could just have a more accelerated and hopefully more seamless path.
All the while being a better friend.
Excellent. I love that.
On that note, congratulations.
Jason, I really, really love the books and the podcast
that your wife has clearly given you and that idea of radical friendship,
radical generosity.
Don't just go for the equilibrium.
Try and give more of yourself.
I love that. I really love that.
I love your advice to be brave.
Put your foot on the pedal.
Don't worry. Just go ahead. Be brave.
I really like your advice for even senior leaders to go in
and work at developing a rapport with the interviewer.
Act as if you want the job. Act keen.
Don't sit back and pretend or look as if you don't really want the job
and prepare hard. I love that.
So thank you so much for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
It has been absolutely fantastic.
Thank you, Sally. It's been great to be here.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
If you like the podcast and would like to hear more,
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This podcast was hosted by me, Sally Patten,
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Our theme is by Alex Gow.
Our head of podcast is Lapfan.
And the head of premium content is Fiona Buffini.
The Australian Financial Review.