You have just over 1,400 staff, 172 partners, and your revenue last year was $360 million.
And my fun fact is that all your employees have a nine-day fortnight.
What do you do with your day off?
It's a very good point.
What I love to do with my day off is to go surfing, because that's really one of my passions.
But the reality is sometimes I go out and see the family or, you know, my mum's actually
recently passed, but I used to go out and see her or, you know, sometimes you're even
just going out and just shopping and doing the things that free you up on the weekend
to be able to go and do the things that are special.
So yeah, it's a chance to refresh and it's a chance for us to get a bit more out of our
lives.
Sounds excellent.
Okay, we're not going to prevaricate.
We've only got 15 minutes.
The clock starts now.
Greg, my first question is about your morning routine.
What does it look like?
What happens?
It varies a bit depending upon where I am.
Yeah, look, I live in Melbourne, but I'm in Sydney today where I've got an apartment
because I used to live here for five years.
So I got up just before six, did a quick flick of the emails just to see whether there was
any bombs coming in, you know, in the way through.
Did some stretching because I'm 60 and need to do that to be as mobile as I'd like.
Went for a beautiful walk along Manly Foreshore with my daughter and had a swim in Queensie.
So I was fresh and alert by the time we got home and had a quick shower and then read
my Vespa down to the ferry and 7.30 ferry into Circular Quay and the office before eight.
So do you find you have to stretch every morning and how does that help?
I have to stretch every morning, Sally.
It makes a huge difference.
So it just gives me the flexibility that I need that takes away me getting frustrated
or sore in meetings and it energises me.
Is it a yoga kind of stretching?
Yeah, it is, yeah.
Right, OK. And are you a breakfast person?
No, I'm not.
On the weekends, I love to have a sort of brunch, but I'm always battling with my weight
and all those sorts of things.
So I found that if I do sort of the eight hours off, you know, those sorts of things.
So I will generally wait for lunch before I eat, although I definitely have a coffee.
So do you try and get your eating done in that eight hour window between, say, lunch and dinner?
Yeah, if I can.
Very healthy.
OK, my next question is, tell me about a pivotal moment in your career, say a project
or a promotion that you got, which really changed the trajectory of what you were doing.
About 12, 13 years ago, I was the head of restructuring in Melbourne.
I was also on the board.
I had a fantastic team that I had with a lot of longevity around me.
And for a number of years, I've been one of the top billing partners in Grant Thornton.
So things were going really well, but I just couldn't see where the challenge was.
And it was probably a bit of a midlife crisis where I was, am I just going to do this for the rest of my career?
And an opportunity came where we were looking to open up a new practice in restructuring in China based out of Hong Kong.
I went home and spoke to my wife about how I was feeling and what I needed.
And she was incredibly supportive, as she always has been.
And the next day, I went back and put my hand up.
And a few months later, my wife and I relocated.
We left our kids who were at uni in the family home.
And I started a business from scratch and pushed myself.
I'm sure I wouldn't be the CEO now if I hadn't done that, because it energised me.
It gave me a much broader understanding of culture.
And I think I became a much better person, frankly, by going out and having to start again.
So you were in your late 40s at the time.
I was, yeah.
And do you think that, had you not done that and not got that extra energy, that you would still be at Grant Thornton?
Or do you think that is potentially part of what enabled you to stay there?
Look, I'm a loyal person and I love GT.
So I would have found it really hard to leave, but I'm not sure I would have got the satisfaction I needed.
I needed the challenge.
I needed to be out of my comfort zone.
So I potentially wouldn't have stayed.
Right. And what was the hardest part about doing that?
Leaving the kids was really challenging.
And so they came over.
But that was hard.
And what was the key thing you learnt by going to Hong Kong?
The biggest lesson I learnt was around culture and understanding Australia's place in the world.
I think I had a lot of bias when I went over there around how important Australia was and how big and influential we are.
And then as I was engaging with international clients, it became clear to me that Australia is just one of many countries
and that my eyes were much open and much broader perspective of the world.
OK.
Greg, what is the best piece of career advice you've ever been given?
I don't think there's one particular piece of advice, but if I was to focus on what do I think is really important,
it's around finding an organisation that lives values that align with your own.
I don't think you can be happy in an organisation that doesn't align with your own personal values.
And I don't think you should work somewhere if you're not happy.
Is it hard to find an organisation, do you think, that aligns with your own values?
Would many organisations not?
I think that a culture of an organisation often reflects the values and culture by its definition will almost force you out if you don't fit in.
So there is a bit of a process of elimination for some people.
I do think you need to do a lot of research into organisations before you apply.
I'm not sure if people do enough of that before they make that decision,
but you're really going to flourish if you're in an organisation that you're excited to be at
and where you believe that every day when you get out of bed, you're actually making a difference in something that you personally value.
What are the key things that should you investigate about an organisation in terms of the culture?
Culture is really understanding what's done when the bosses aren't around and really speaking to people about the lived experience
and understanding how people engage with one another, how they're respected, how they're listened to, do you have a voice?
What's their view on issues around flexibility, diversity, issues that may be important to you in your life
and that you would like to bring other people through and develop other people into.
So is the idea there that you should speak to as many people in the organisation as you can to do your due diligence?
Yeah, and maybe also some of the clients or advisors, because they'll be able to compare.
So one thing is to understand what's happening inside the walls,
but it's also interesting to see how the organisation is appreciated outside.
Right, OK. Oh, that's pretty good advice. Thank you.
On that note, we are going to take a short break, but don't go away.
We are going to come back very shortly and open our delightful chatterbox.
Chatterbox, OK.
Welcome back to Fifteen Minutes with the Boss.
I'm here with Greg Keith, the chief executive of Grant Thornton in Australia.
Now, Greg, as promised slash threatened, this is our section called the Chatterbox.
In front of you is a lovely, shiny brown box with, I'd say, about 20 questions in there today.
I am going to ask you to have a bit of a forage in the box, pick out questions one by one,
which I will, of course, then ask you to answer.
So go ahead, have a fish in the box.
And it is an actual box. I was wondering this having...
No, everyone's surprised by that, but it is actually a box.
We're not lying to you. OK, fish out the first question.
I love this. What's your pet hate in the office?
Can I give you two? You can?
One is when we have a meeting and I think everybody's had an opportunity to speak
and that we've created a safe environment and there's psychological safety.
And I think we've reached a conclusion.
And then we'll go out and I'll hear that people have been talking after the meeting at a contra review
or they haven't shared that with the group at the time.
And I feel really frustrated with that.
And it does make me challenge whether I've created a situation that hasn't really allowed people to feel comfortable.
I imagine that actually that happens a lot.
What do you think the answer is?
Is the answer to somehow create a safer psychological space?
Or do you think you need to offer other avenues for people to express their views,
say by dropping something in a box or by coming to see you individually?
It depends on the audience.
But if you know your audience well, you should know who's an introvert, who's an extrovert.
Some of their tells, if they're in your team, you can know their tells if they're actually engaging and listening.
I do think the chair plays a massive role in bringing it out and giving people that opportunity.
So I do tend to reflect more on the person running the meeting, which is often myself, rather than on the individual.
So why do you think they may not express their opinion?
I think it's a combination of the environment that was created that didn't necessarily allow them to feel comfortable to be able to share
or that there was a circumstance which we didn't resolve, which allowed them to share or to want to share.
Do you think that people are afraid that they might just say the wrong thing?
I would certainly hope not.
I would like to think that people wouldn't have that fear and that we've created an environment and a culture
where people know that we're listening to them and that they have a voice that we want to hear from.
So that would be, from my perspective, that would be a really bad outcome if that was the case.
And what's your second pet hate in the office?
Going downstairs to grab a coffee and seeing 15 people lining up, waiting for the 15th person to get their coffee before they all go back upstairs again.
It's taken them 30 minutes or 40 minutes to get a coffee, and that's just a huge waste of time and efficiency.
And I feel that, you know, when we brought in our nine day fortnight, it was really to tackle those sorts of issues and say to people,
well, if we can use our time more efficiently, we'll get that time back to you.
You know, we discussed all those sorts of behaviours.
So we said about, well, how much time do you spend on your phone and on your socials?
And how much time do you spend just walking down, grabbing coffees, et cetera?
If you can trim those things down, it's not hard to find half an hour a day that will give back to you.
At the end of the end of the fortnight, you can take a day off.
But do you think you have to reinforce the message that they have got a nine day fortnight and it's because they're supposed to be saving time in the office?
It hasn't worked perfectly.
It's actually been a bit of a bumpy road because we found that the more junior people in our team are quick to take it.
But that's put pressure on the people in the middle, our manager type levels.
So we've had to keep reverting to what we're trying to achieve as a group and get them to buy in and supporting the clients or being able to take the time.
But it's well worth pursuing because it's got significant advantages for our people and then that flows through our clients.
So some of your middle managers feel they're too busy to take it.
Yes. So the problem we've had is the more junior people will want to take it, but the job's still got to be done.
And so what we've asked our people is to help us find efficiencies and not for it to be around production, but about client delivery.
And so if we can still get the client delivery done within less time by being more efficient,
then we'll give you the time back rather than you do less hours and push the work up.
I would say we're probably 75 percent of where we would like to be.
But there's some huge advantages that we're seeing in the results.
Our retention rates are the highest they've ever been.
People's mental wellbeing is the best it's ever been.
Our engagement schools are the best they've ever been.
And we're getting more production out of less time.
So it's worth chasing.
OK, excellent. OK, let's have another question.
Yeah.
So I'm pretty strict on myself and how I engage with emails.
So I get an enormous number of emails a day.
I like to read them once.
So I might skim them in the morning when I first wake up, see what's in overnight.
But after that, I like to get an email and either answer it or refer it off to somebody else.
But I try not to let that build up.
So do you block out a particular block of time to look at emails in a day,
freeing up the rest of your day for other, arguably more important stuff?
The reality is I do them in between meetings.
Wherever there's a wedge, I tend to continually go back and try and keep the ball moving.
If I can either answer it or refer it off, then that keeps the wheels turning.
So I'm just sort of constantly doing them in between.
So you're just very strict about reading it once.
Responding or handing it off to someone else?
It's often I'll go to bed with almost no emails.
And it would be very rare for me to have an unread email when I go to bed.
So is it hard to read an email only once?
I'm sure I read some emails two or three times.
It's taken years for me to develop that discipline because sometimes it's easier to put it in the too hard box.
And that's a huge time waster because you're thinking about it and then you're going back and circling around again.
So are you in general very good at making quick decisions?
It's a strength and a weakness.
I need to make sure that I don't make the decisions too quickly before everybody else gets to be involved or come on the journey with me.
So I've had to develop that skill, particularly as a CEO, to engage, listen prior to jumping to the conclusion,
or else others don't feel that they've actually had the chance to influence or to redirect the outcomes.
Interesting. So you are a type of person who doesn't need to have all the information in front of you before you're prepared to make a decision.
That's correct.
My preference is to get something sort of 70 percent right and then make a decision and then monitor.
And then I'm more than happy to file quickly and flip.
I have no problems in saying, actually, I'm going to call it.
I don't think that was the right decision. Let's go.
But it really frustrates me just to leave things or to see things only half done or not progressed or not moving forward.
And if I can try and be consistent so that everyone knows and predicts where we're going,
so stick close to our values, stick close to our strategy and our principles, then usually works pretty well.
But it's interesting that your challenge is to to listen to other people and make sure that you've included everybody in the decision where actually what you want to do is just make it.
It can be challenging sometimes at a personal level.
That's probably the one thing that I work on the most and holding myself back.
And not just that, but making sure people genuinely have a voice and keeping my mind open to continue to adjust the outcomes.
That's something I have to continually work on a daily basis.
Yeah, that's really critical. OK.
On that note, congratulations. You have made it to the end of the Chatterbox section.
I now have one final question, which in your case, I'm going to modify as you are actually going to be able to take 12 months off.
So what are your plans for your 12 months off?
And do you think you will come back in some sort of full time, part time role afterwards?
What's on the cards? What's on the cards?
Look, I've been CEO, I will be CEO for 10 years at that point, which is a really long time to be on full board.
So I'm going to take time for me, whether that be around my diet, my health and my energy levels.
I want to be able to spend time with my family and friends and and just learn some new things.
Learn some new skills.
Yeah. My wife tells a story.
We took our kids around Australia in 2003, took them out of primary school and went around Australia.
And when we started the story, I'd go in to pay for petrol and there'd be somebody in front and they'd be talking and it would take forever.
And we're trying to get somewhere.
And I'd come in frustrated and go, it's taking 10 minutes.
Why didn't they just let me pay and get out of here?
And by the time we finished our 10 weeks driving around Australia, me getting petrol, pay for petrol was a 20 minute exercise because I was the one asking someone,
where have you gone? Oh, we've been there sharing information.
And my wife says, you know, I was just so interested in people and so relaxed.
And so I'd like to find that person again, that person who's not rushed and has has time to be interested in what's in front of them in a moment rather than feeling like I've always got something I've got to do in a hurry.
So I'd like to rediscover that person again. I think I'll slip back into the rushed person.
And on that note, our time is up.
Greg, thanks so much for coming in today.
I really admire your discipline over emails.
I love the fact that you took a chance and grabbed that job in Hong Kong.
And I partly love that because it re-energized you because you were doing new things and you had new challenges.
So that's a really good note to self.
Challenge yourself and you'll get energized.
And your pet hates, I take note of, employees spending far too much time queuing up for coffee and people discussing things after a meeting,
which actually would have been usefully discussed during the meeting.
I do sympathize with that.
And good luck after you've left trying to find that relaxed person, which will allow you to spend 20 minutes filling your tank with petrol.
Yes, exactly.
That is a fantastic goal to have.
So, Greg, thank you so much once again for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
Great. Thank you very much.
Thanks, Sally.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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