I sweat the small stuff, to be frank. That's one of the things that I do. If there's something
little, I always think something little can turn into something big.
A time that I've failed at something, the first thing that pops into my mind is actually
the 2008 Olympics. I wasn't there for a silver medal, so that really felt like a huge failure
for me. What I learnt from that was...
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review, and welcome
to 15 Minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything in between.
And along the way, we're aiming to get some great advice from our leaders. My guest today
is Grant Hackett, Olympic swimming champion and chief executive of Generation Development
Hi, Grant, how are you?
Very well, thanks, Sally. How are you?
I'm very well, and thank you so much for coming into our beautiful Melbourne studio.
My pleasure. Happy to be here.
Now, Grant, as I said, you're the chief executive of Generation Development Group, which is
listed on the stock exchange and which sells specialist financial products largely for
attirees. But you are also an asset manager and a financial research house. You have been
CEO at Generation for just over six years. The company is valued at $1.6 billion, which
is a fair sum. But you are probably better known as one of the best distance swimmers
in Olympic history. You won the men's 1500 meters freestyle at both the 2000 Games in
Sydney and the 2004 Summer Olympics in Athens. Do you still swim a lot?
No, I don't, actually. I was scared of the bathtub after I retired, so I took a bit of
time out. I think if I had a little bit more time outside of work and family, I probably
would do a little bit of swimming. But to keep fit, generally, I've got a gym at home,
so I jump in there. And I've also got a rowing machine that I'll jump on or go for a run,
but not too much swimming these days.
Oh, interesting. OK, well, maybe we'll get a bit more to your morning routine very shortly.
We've only got 15 minutes. The clock starts now. My first question is about your morning
routine. What time do you get up? What does it look like? What happens?
Pretty basic, to be honest. So my wife and I generally were up at 5.50 a.m. That's normally
when the alarm goes off, unless I've got an early morning flight, which in that case,
it'll go off before 5. Got a gym at home. I'll generally work out for about 40 minutes.
I probably do that about five out of seven days a week. Go up, have a shower, get ready
for work, and then go downstairs, have breakfast with the kids. So I try and see the kids as
much as I can in the morning, because generally, the two young ones are asleep by the time
I get home from work. I generally get in the office around sort of between 8 and 8.20.
Coffee, I generally have that when I get to work. So I like to have breakfast at home,
no coffee then, and then I'll have one when I get to work. That just means it'll last
a little bit longer, I think.
And what do you have for breakfast?
At the moment, I'm having porridge with honey and fruit, or generally I'll have eggs. So
a lot of the time when I was swimming, I used to have seven eggs, but I'd have seven whites
and two yolks. So I still like my eggs, but generally only three or four.
Only three or four, okay.
But it's a lot less than what I used to have, but I still work out quite a bit. So I like
to make sure that I'm getting a healthy dose of protein.
Actually, that's interesting. So are you very conscious about eating lots of protein?
I am. So I weigh probably about 106, 107 kilos. So I'm six foot six, and I work out
quite a bit. I eat quite a bit of food. When I was swimming, I was having nine full meals
a day. That's how much I was eating. So you'd almost get sick of eating by the end of it
because you're just burning so many calories.
Yeah. So it takes a bit of adjustment afterwards because your metabolism, you're exercising
all the time just to get back into some healthy routines. I generally try and exclude too
many carbs from my diet. I try and have things like brown rice or sweet potato. So again,
similar to what I was doing throughout my sporting career. Also make sure white sugar.
I always find white sugar, if I have too much of it, it actually runs me down. So I'm pretty
conscious of what I put into it to make sure that I feel good. And obviously having a busy
lifestyle with work and family and you're always on the run. Like you never really get
too much downtime. So to look after yourself is super important.
Yeah, no, absolutely. So Grant, my next question is about a pivotal moment in your career.
Was there a project that you worked on or a promotion that you were given or a job that
you got that changed the trajectory of what you were doing?
Probably a critical moment in my career was really the opportunity in the business that
I'm in right now. So back in 2017, I got the opportunity to run the sales team. My boss
was the executive chairman of the group, a guy named Rob Coom, who's very well known
in financial services. And he basically said to me, he said, look, over the next 12 months,
if you do a good job with sales and you lead the team the right way, we'll give you an
opportunity to be CEO of the business. So fortunately, sales was up 72%. It was a record
year. The financial growth of the business and profile of the business was quite material
because it was just a break even business at that time. So to start really moving into
the black and positive territory was really good. And that was obviously underpinned by
sales, which drove the revenue and obviously the financial results of the business. So
for me, that was probably a critical moment in my career.
So how did you initially get into the finance industry, having had an illustrious career
Funnily enough, I always loved finance. So I was trading shares at a very young age,
you know, any money I was making out of swimming, I was investing. And even five years out from
when I knew I would retire in my swimming career after Beijing in 2008, I was studying
commerce law. I was also I sat down with Rob at the time and also Tim Bishop from Macquarie
Bank. And, you know, they gave me some guidance and a pathway to be able to have my first
opportunity, which was at Westpac. And from there, yeah, I just I've always loved it.
I've always been interested in it. And the more my sort of career evolves and the more
opportunities that I get to do new things, I think for me, I've just yeah, I've just
certainly had no regrets and a part of me. And I think most people would be shocked in
me saying this. I actually enjoy this career more than my sporting career.
Why is that? I just I love business.
I love the opportunity to create something, grow something, work with brilliant people,
be still in a very competitive environment.
And the other big challenge, which I feel quite proud of at a personal level, is it's
difficult to make that transition after sport, particularly when everyone recognises you
as that athlete. And they still do today, even though I've been doing this job and
being in financial services and business longer than what I was in swimming.
So for me to be able to make that transition, I did my MBA afterwards and various other
studies and then be able to build on my career here and certainly have a shot at something
else. I think for me, I'm immensely proud of being able to do that.
Interesting. OK, my next question is, what is the best piece of career advice you've
Funnily enough, I remember talking to David Ginjal, of course, who oversaw Channel 9
for a very long time. And, you know, I was trying to I was getting a lot of opportunities
early in my career when it came to business and him actually telling me to slow down a
little bit. You know, I was moving from one senior role into another senior role and got
quite a few opportunities. And I just remember him telling me, you know, you don't have to
be CEO tomorrow and, you know, you want to make sure you've got the experience, the
expertise behind you before you get into a role like that.
And he said, there's time. And I really did take that on board.
And I think for me, I was probably trying to to rush through my career early because
I felt like because of sport, I lost a lot of time.
And it was really good advice because you actually don't want to get into a position
where you're incompetent, where you actually don't know what to do.
You don't know the levers to pull, what you've got to drive, how to bring people along in
that journey. So it was a great piece of advice because as a person who can be too
ambitious, too competitive, driven too much sometimes to slow down and actually recognize
that there is a process that you have to enjoy was a really important part of getting
to probably where I am today.
You sound like the type for whom moderation is not really in your vocab.
It's either you do everything or you do nothing.
It's either all or nothing.
You're right. I'm learning to get a lot better at that.
So as I get older, I am learning to moderate, but it has taken some time.
And I think that is a real byproduct of being in such a high pressure, high performance
environment for so long as an athlete.
Like I spent 13 years on the national team, but before that, it was super competitive
from age 12 or 13.
So being in an environment where you always got to try and be at your best.
And it's hard to turn that off.
It becomes part of who you are.
So for me, I'm definitely learning to to wean myself off that that type of way of
operating and being a little bit more balanced and definitely with maturity and age, it
On that note, we're going to take a short break, but don't go away.
We're going to come back and open our wonderful chatterbox.
Welcome back to 15 minutes with the boss.
I'm here with Grant Hackett, Olympic champion and the chief executive of Generation
Development Group.
Now, Grant, this is our section called the chatterbox.
It's in front of me today rather new because we're in different cities.
It's this lovely brown lo-fi box inside which are about 15 questions.
You're going to have to trust me to forage and pick them out on your behalf and not
cheat. So are you ready?
No worries. You go for it.
OK. Tell me about a time that you failed at something and tell me also how you recovered
A time that I failed at something.
The first thing that pops into my mind is actually the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.
I was trying to do the first time for a male athlete in our sport, win the same event
three times in a row.
Of course, Dawn Fraser was known for what she achieved in the women's 100m freestyle
and winning three gold medals in a row.
And I ended up getting a silver medal.
I wasn't there for a silver medal.
So that that really felt like a huge failure for me.
And what I learned from that was be prepared for anything and check your blind spots.
And I've really carried that through business because for me, when I went into that final,
I thought it was literally myself, a guy named Ryan Cochran in Lane 5.
Yuri Prulikov from Russia in Lane 3.
I didn't think anybody else would be able to compete that day.
And then when I broke those two with a couple of hundred meters to go in that race, I saw
that there's someone out in Lane 7 who had a two and a half body length lead over the
rest of the field.
And I tried to swim him down.
I probably got within half a second.
Wasn't good enough, got a silver medal.
And I just thought to myself as I reflected on that race, one, I needed a really good
So that was the way I recovered.
But the way I learned to live with it was I use it.
So I think to myself, I'm going to be able to do that.
In business right now, what are my blind spots?
What am I not thinking of?
What do I need to be aware of?
And that creates a sense of humility in the way you approach things, which I think is
really important. I think as soon as you become a little bit arrogant or you think I've
got this, I think that's when the blind spots start to come in.
And that's when you can miss the subtleties of what's going on in your business or day
to day life, really, when you're trying to achieve something.
Now, I think that after your swimming career, you had another difficult time
personally. What happened there?
And what did you learn from that?
Has that also added to your resilience?
Big time. And probably through that stage of my life, you know, going through a divorce
and missing my kids, being the person that was captain of the team, being being a leader
in, you know, different aspects of life and people normally coming to me for counsel
or for help. I wasn't good at asking for help.
So going through a very destabilising period in my life where emotionally it was just
so difficult to deal with everything that was going on and some of the innuendo and
speculation and various things that just weren't even true.
But being so public.
So for me, I remember doing some work overseas and I was sitting down with a psychologist
and she said, oh, your problem is really easy.
I said, well, tell me the silver bullet, please.
And she said, you just lack complete vulnerability.
I remember sitting there and just sort of pausing for a second and saying, you're
absolutely right. And from that point onwards, I made, I guess, a considered or
you know, with intent to be vulnerable when I needed to.
So what tools did you learn to use?
And when you say you became vulnerable, what did you do?
Oh, well, I spoke about it for starters.
I spoke about how I was feeling.
I would often push myself so so hard I would break down.
I would get sick, but I wouldn't really let myself have a break.
I wouldn't let myself off the hook.
I was almost too hard on myself.
So I think for me, just understanding all those little elements.
And actually, if you're going through a really tough period where you've overdone
it, you're burnt out, you know, you're not yourself.
You see all those like subtleties leading to that.
I think for me now, I recognize those subtleties.
I know when I'm overdoing it, when I'm too tired, when I've been working too much,
when I haven't taken a break, all those sorts of things.
Now I recognize them as signs where before I would just ignore them and keep pushing.
So I think for me, one, getting to understand yourself to recognizing when,
you know, things are deteriorating for you at a personal level.
Three, having the guts and the strength to be able to action those.
So for me, it was easier to push through than it was to recognize, perhaps,
what I would call a weakness back then and being vulnerable around that,
actually talking around those those sorts of things.
And also just having someone in your life like, you know, I do with my wife now
that you have that that trust and understanding and that that safe sort of space
to be able to talk about those things, I think is really powerful.
And we all need someone like that in our life.
Yeah, that's really good advice.
OK, I'm going to have another forage in the box.
Sure. In the chatterbox.
What is an underrated skill that you use as a CEO
that people don't discuss very often that we don't really discuss?
It's time management and also I love that trying to make things look easy as well.
Because one thing I've really I reflect on when I look at athletes,
the best always make it look easy.
They prepare so much and they do all of the work
and the preparation to be able to execute so effortlessly.
And they look effortless.
I remember actually seeing my chairman, Rob Kuhn, who I've already touched on.
He's someone I really admire in business.
One day, many, many years ago, we were in the gym together
and it was before one of our AGM's and he'd written out everything.
I always thought he just got up and spoke.
And I just remember seeing his level of preparation.
He was running five case on the treadmill, reading the whole time
and making notes on there as well.
It's the same with Michael Phelps.
We all saw him win those eight gold medals in Beijing.
And a lot of people don't know this when he was going.
I think it was his fifth gold medal.
He dived in the water and his goggles leaked, so he couldn't see anything.
I remember watching this Q&A session that he was having over in Arizona.
And they said, well, what did you do?
And he said, well, I closed my eyes and I counted my strokes.
And they said, you really closed your eyes.
And what was the outcome?
Well, I won and I broke the world record and the world record
was held for over a decade.
So it was a very good world record.
And the reality was, he said, I'd counted my strokes so many times.
I'd done the pace of breaking that world record in the 200 meter
butterfly so many times that I literally could do it with my eyes closed.
And that's what he did.
He did it basically with his eyes closed because he was so well prepared.
So again, it just reinforces every time I see someone who is exceptional
in their field, it's preparation and then effortless execution.
I love that story, actually.
OK, we're going to have another fish in the box.
So, Grant, is there one thing that worries you that may not worry other CEOs?
I sweat the small stuff, to be frank.
That's one of the things that I do.
Like if there's something little, I always think something little
can turn into something big.
So anything that's taking place in the business day to day that I reflect on
at the end of the day that I think I've got to action that actually,
I've got to reopen that.
I've got to unpick that a little bit more.
So that's probably a big part of my leadership.
And I found those small little incremental gains, whether that was in sport,
whether that was in business, they're the little things that actually
get you from that small business to a big business or from an athlete
that wasn't on the national team to going to the Olympic Games.
They take long periods of time, but I find they're absolutely critical
for getting those levels of improvement that you need.
We often don't improve in big steps.
It doesn't often happen like that.
It's small increments.
You hear we grew from a 40 or 50 million dollar business
when I first became CEO to almost a two billion dollar company today.
But it's all those little small steps that actually did it.
So I do sweat the small stuff, to be totally frank.
And grant on that note, that is the end of the chatterbox.
I've now got one final question, which we ask all our guests.
And that is if you weren't the chief executive of Generation,
what would you be doing?
I would probably be doing more exercise, to be honest,
because I really enjoy that.
I find for me that's that's the way I relax.
I would be traveling overseas on family holidays a lot more.
And I would probably be I couldn't help myself.
I love investing. I love investing.
So I'd definitely be involved in a few businesses.
And would you get back into the pool?
Do you think I would probably do a little bit more swimming?
I find to the point before just doing things more in an extreme way,
where now I'm a little bit more relaxed and I can tolerate
not going as fast in the water.
I found when I swum straight after my career, I'd be looking up at the clock
and I would feel almost disgraceful with the times that I'd be swimming
because, you know, you're not doing it twice a day,
eight kilometers per session sort of thing.
So for me now, I find I could actually get the therapeutic side
out of going in a pool, putting my, you know, my head under the water
and just focusing on my technique and actually enjoying swimming
rather than trying to go fast and be overtly competitive the whole time.
So, yeah, I think I would do a bit more swimming for sure.
And that is our 15 minutes up.
Grant, thank you so much.
I really loved talking to you about the advice to slow down.
You don't have to be in a hurry to get absolutely everywhere.
I love the idea that you have learned to look out for your blind spots.
And that's something that came from a race, which you did not win in the pool.
But now you're sort of looking out for what might come from left to field.
I really think that your advice to be really well prepared
so you can make things look easy is fantastic.
And also the way you sweat the small stuff.
It's not about worrying about something unnecessarily.
It's actually giving you a chance to make incremental improvements.
And who doesn't want to eat nine full meals a day?
I'm so sorry that you probably can't do that anymore.
But I love also the fact that you're still eating three or four eggs a day.
So on that note, thank you again so much for allowing us to spend
15 minutes with the boss.
Thanks very much for having me. So I really enjoyed the chat.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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This podcast was hosted by me, Sally Patton,
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Our head of podcast is Lapfan and the head of premium content is Fiona Buffini.
The Australian Financial Review.