The Australian Financial Review.
It really opened up my mind to just, you know, how you set up a business from scratch.
We didn't have computers, we didn't have systems, we didn't have anything, we didn't
One of the things I've done, and I think I've done that well through my career, is
on a Friday I'm very deliberate in shutting off, and I often won't come back on until
And for me, that is absolutely critical.
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review.
And welcome to Fifth Demons with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything
And along the way, we're hoping to get some really great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Damian Nix, the chief executive of AGL.
Hi, Damian, how are you?
Great to be here, Sally.
I'm very good and looking forward to this morning.
Thank you so much for coming into our very, very black studio.
Now, as I said, you're the chief executive of AGL.
AGL started life in 1837 as Australia's first gas company.
Now you both generate electricity using coal, gas and renewables, such as wind and solar,
and you sell that power directly to 4.5 million consumers.
On the production side, AGL is the largest electricity generator in the country, accounting
for about 20 per cent of total generation.
And in the six months to December, you recorded an underlying net profit of $337 million.
That all sounds like quite enough for you to get on with.
Yeah, it's certainly a great business, been around for a long time with huge history.
And, you know, I think we're doing some great things through the transition, working at
the end of the day for our customers.
OK, Damian, we haven't got very long 15 minutes.
The clock starts now.
And my first question is, what does your morning routine look like?
What time do you get up? What happens up at 5.30 at my desk by seven?
And in that sort of slot in between, it's a bit of breakfast here, a bit of Vita bricks
to start the day, followed by some exercise where I can sort of juggle that through.
But importantly, it's about getting that seven o'clock in the morning at the desk.
So I've got an hour to myself and that hour to myself is really critical for me to get
my head in the game, work out where my focus is for the day, for the week or what's coming
up, to read the press and also see what's happening in the energy markets, because that
also directs my attention with the focus for the day.
So do you take no calls and no emails during that time?
Pretty much. Yeah, it's and that's why I'm there at seven as well, because I know I get
that clarity of thinking. I know I get that clarity of space.
It really helps that focus.
What am I going to change through that day if things are got any problems or got some
opportunities or things we're working on?
What will I shift in the day so that it's not reacting during the day?
It's reacting at the start of the day about where we need to focus.
Interesting and obviously a very worthwhile time that you spend that first hour of the
day. OK, David, my next question is about a pivotal moment in your career.
Was there something that happened, a promotion?
You got a project that you worked on that changed the course of what you were doing?
It was the time I got offered to do a gig in the US.
It was a US startup working for at the time Smorg and Steele, took the family, you know,
there was there was at the time four of us, two kids under three, putting on a plane
and getting onto the other side of the world.
It really opened up my mind to just, you know, how you set up a business from scratch.
We didn't have computers. We didn't have systems.
We didn't we didn't have anything.
Didn't have a phone, if you like.
So my role really got much broader.
It was about how we bring people and culture.
And I think it just broadened my horizons to really looking into those challenges,
really looking into the difficulties of starting something up from scratch and then
just taking a broader perspective of how it is that I was going to be a leader of the
future. And that was pretty pretty early days in my career.
So it was one of the probably biggest challenges I had in my career, stepping well
outside of my comfort zone and well outside the things I've done in the past and made
mistakes along the way, you know, and made mistakes where we had to fix and correct and
really rapidly do that course correction along the way.
So why did you want to go and work for a startup?
Did you see yourself becoming an entrepreneur at the time?
It wasn't so much that. I think it was just more that challenge that, you know, I've
always had the, I suppose, the ability to step into those challenges, step into that
uncertainty. At the time, I remember coming home saying to my wife, what do you think
about going to the to the US?
And at the time it was not too sure young family within four or five days.
We were on a plane to go have a look at where this was, to make sure it was somewhere
we wanted to live and raise kids.
And within two months we were there.
So what were the key skills that you acquired during that period?
It was stepping outside of my skill set and capability, which was finance and
commercial. That's where I'd come from.
That's where I developed.
And, you know, it was around people, it was around leadership, it was around that
capability of technology as well.
They were skill sets that I didn't have.
So, for example, what did you learn about people?
Can you explain the difference between the culture that you met in America and the
culture that you wanted to imbue on the organisation?
So, look, you know, the culture there in the US is very different here in Australia,
you know, whether it be their leave, whether it be, you know, how they thought about
taking their leave, a couple of weeks a year, or their medical insurance.
Those types of things.
And also they had very different, you know, in terms of how they took leave.
It was amazing how little leave people took in America.
And so we had to make sure that our policies, our procedures were broad enough to
encompass that so that we could actually bring that workforce along with us.
So the lessons that you took then was to really meet the workers where they were at
and give them the things that were really important to them.
Yeah, that's right. And not walk into an organisation or a different
region thinking you can just place your cultural values on a different organisation
and a different part of the world.
It was about making sure you shaped it so it met the needs of, you know, the people
we work within. So an organisation is shaped by its people.
If you get that wrong, then it can have ramifications on its success.
OK, fantastic. All right.
My next question is, what is the best piece of career advice you've ever been given?
Look, for me, again, starting back very early in my career back in Deloitte, so I
started 30 years ago.
I had one piece of advice that really took me a while to work out what it meant.
I had this partner, this leader at the time, and he said to me through a review,
I must have been two or three years into Deloitte, he said, it's time to get some
feathers on your wings.
And at the time, I sort of sat back and reflected on that.
And I think I pretended I knew what it meant.
In reality, I had no idea what that meant.
But reflecting on that, then a few years later, it was all his advice was all about
broadening. It was about stepping into the uncertain, stepping into the challenge.
And the other piece of the puzzle there was his ability to give strong,
direct and very to the point feedback was so incredible for me.
And I've taken that on since and made sure whenever I'm giving feedback, it is
always, you know, to help the individual get better in what they do.
So can you give me an example of some strong, direct feedback that you received
and how you acted upon it?
What concrete thing did you do as a result of that advice?
Yeah, look, you know, even going back that 20, 30 years, it was, you know, a
couple of years into that, when I suddenly worked out what that feedback was, it was
about leaning into some really big challenges that got put in front of me, some
big jobs that got put in front of me at Deloitte's at the time.
You know, they asked me to step on and actually work on the smorgon steel float.
I thought to myself, this is a big challenge.
This is a big opportunity.
And that ultimately led to me being asked to do the transaction across into the
US and do the startup as well.
So I think my mantra is, you know, being prepared to step into the unknown and
step into those challenges.
And I think through my career, making those choices to do that has enabled me
to do bigger and broader things than had I have just, you know, stayed in my
finance line. I think being in this role as CEO today, I wouldn't be here had I
not done all of those step change pieces through my career.
Damien, on that note, we are going to take a short break, but don't go away.
We're going to come back in just a minute or two and open our lovely, famous
Welcome back to 15 minutes with the boss.
I'm here with Damien Nix, the chief executive of AGL.
Now, Damien, as threatened, this is our chatterbox section.
In front of you is this beautiful brown, quite lo-fi admittedly, brown box inside
which today are about, I'd say 20 questions.
I'm going to ask you to pick out some questions one by one, and we'll continue
with our fantastic Q&A, so have a fish in the box.
OK, what are your favorite interview questions when hiring someone and why?
Look, I think interview questions for me is about getting to the individual to
understand what they stand for and what they importantly understand from a
leadership point of view.
So when I ask a question, it's often about their leadership experience and what
they've done from a leadership perspective where they've either failed or
they've succeeded. So one, leadership is a big piece.
Two, it's about how they've managed people and driven culture in an
organisation. And then I think the third one is as much about capability, but
breadth of capability.
What does that look like?
To get a sense from me how broad this leader is going to be for us, are they
going to be in their swim lane or are we going to be able to broaden the mat into
broader roles in the organisation?
So do you often ask people to tell you about mistakes they've made and what they
learnt from them, say, when it comes to leadership or creating a culture?
I think it's always really good to understand where people have succeeded, but
also where they have failed.
I think it's a bit of both.
I think it's always dangerous to go into an interview with pre-prepared questions.
I don't think you get what you want out of it.
So for me, it's almost about let's see where this interview goes.
I've got two or three key themes I want to go to and then let's dive a bit deeper
and maybe dive a bit deeper again.
I think that's when you always get the best answers.
OK, I love that. OK, have another fish in the box.
Name someone with whom you would like to have dinner and why.
Interesting. I never love that question because there's no one individually out
there I'd say I'd love to have dinner with.
You know, to be honest, for me, it's about if I'm trying to spend time, it's
about spending time with family and friends, right?
So for me, how do I get more time with my family and friends and how can I spend
more time having dinner with them?
But if I had to pick someone, if I look back three or four years, I was really
fortunate, I was in the US at the time.
I got to meet Sam Altman and Aidan Gomez.
And it was really when AI was first starting to really bubble.
So I think for me, it would have been back then having the opportunity to have
dinner with them and having a much longer conversation would have just opened my
mind earlier to where they were taking taking us on this AI journey.
So Sam Altman and Aidan Gomez from Coheer.
Coheer and Sam Altman from OpenAI.
And so just going back to your previous point, do you find it a struggle to
balance the needs of your job and your family and friends?
It's always a struggle.
So yes, you know, to be sitting here and truthfully saying it's not, it's always a
struggle, but I think I'm very deliberate and disciplined in that I'll only do one
or two work events a week, right?
That might sound like a lot.
That's in the evening.
That's in the evening.
So I'll try to do one or two a week, because otherwise I could be out almost
every night of the week and it's just not practical.
Very deliberate in the events I try to go to.
And then for me, that then gives me time at the back end of the week, whether it's
a Friday or a weekend to have more space and head space, if you like, for my
family and friends.
So it is always that balance.
I know Monday to Friday is, that's work, you know, and that's what you're doing.
But if I can give myself that time on a weekend with the head space, I think
that's incredibly important for that balance.
But I typically therefore don't try to do too much with family and friends during
the week, because I know things are always changing and moving.
And do you make a point of say not working on the weekend so you can maximise
time with family and friends?
Yeah, look, I've always been one of the things I've done, and I think I've done
that well through my career is on a Friday, I'm very deliberate in shutting off.
And I often won't come back on until Sunday, right?
And unless, of course, there is something big happening, some issues happening,
but very deliberate in trying to get that 24, 36 hours of my own space, whether
that's with the family, out in the garden, having a run, going for a ride.
I need to have that decompression so that I can come back, refresh the following week.
So if you're not able to decompress, what might happen or what do you sort of, why
are you so keen to make sure that you do decompress on the weekend?
Look, I think, you know, throughout your career, you learn pretty early that if
you're not taking that time or decompressing, you don't think as well, or
you're not as clear in your focus, right?
And so I know for myself, if I'm coming into a week tired or a lot on my plate,
I'm just not as effective.
So throughout my career, I've learned through that discipline, I can take myself
out at certain points, and it doesn't always have to be a Friday night or a
Saturday, I'm just very clear that when my body tells me I need to take some time,
And for me, that is absolutely critical.
And I think if you lead that from above and you're making sure your teams are
taking the time, their teams are taking some time, absolutely critical.
What's in front of us at an AGL perspective, it is a mammoth transition.
It's a 10-year transition at least, right?
So for us, it's about making sure you've got that momentum, you're delivering and
you're executing, but in 10 years, you can't be going 100 miles an hour that
whole time, you need to take some time off.
And that's why leave is also important too.
Is that something that keeps you up at night if we, as a community, don't
get the transition right?
Look, it doesn't keep me up at night, but it certainly has a lot of my attention.
What we are trying to do as an industry here in Australia, we're effectively
rebuilding the power system here in Australia.
And, you know, we've really got 10 years to do it.
So what I always say to people, it's not one asset or the other.
I think we all get hung up on it will be one asset or it's going to be a range of
So in the future, it will be renewables and wind and solar and hydro and batteries
and any new technology that comes into the market.
And I think the other big piece of the puzzle that's starting to get more
conversation, which I think is fantastic, is the role the customer plays around
batteries and solar in the home.
I mean, solar is already huge.
How do we now orchestrate that to get real value out of that for both the
customer and the market?
That's some really exciting pieces of this puzzle where we all plug it together.
So yes, does it worry me if we get it wrong?
Do I think though we've got all the right people thinking about it?
It's now about getting us all engaged, all working in the same way.
I think that is the risk.
You know, how do we get everyone in the market working the same direction to
deliver this for our customers?
And the cost of living pressures play into this and if so, how?
Look, absolutely.
I mean, at the forefront of our thinking is cost of living for our customers.
You see that through all of the surveys we're doing across the market, not just
So we need to be able to design the right system for the future, which
ultimately will lead to lower pricing.
Unfortunately, we're right in this mode of rebuilding the power system at the
So it's complicated and complex, but we have to get this right.
We have to do it.
We don't have a choice either because coal will exit the market.
We're going to have power stations 50 years old in 10 years time.
They will exit the market.
So we need to get this done.
On that note, Damien, well done.
That is the end of our chatterbox section.
I now have one final question, which we ask all our guests.
And that is if you weren't the chief executive of AGL, what would you be doing?
Look, I think for me, the first thing I would do would be take some time off for
a while and it would be getting overseas somewhere, immersing myself in a culture
for two or three months and, you know, really just trying to, you know, that
word I used to decompress, really come off for a little while, think about, you
know, what I want to do next in my career or don't want to do next as it may be.
And just spending time with my family as well.
I mean, those choices you make, this would be a choice to spend more
time with my family and friends.
But I'd love to do it overseas for three or six months and just immerse myself
in a different culture for a little while.
Would you pick up any new skills while you're away?
Whether it's a new skill or, you know, when I grew up, when I was growing up, I
spent a fair bit of time with my dad, sailing just small boats, like little
dinghies or catamarans, I'd love to get back into that.
So depending where I ended up and, you know, being away, I'd love to do a bit
more sailing of small boats, you know, in different parts of the world.
I just used to love that getting out in the ocean and just, you know, getting
away from it all, to be honest.
And again, that's another way for me that might be a way of decompressing and
coming down, so be picking up that, not new skill, be picking up that skill
again from, you know, 30, 40 years ago.
And on small boats, you don't want to get into a sort of bigger boats?
No, no, it's very deliberately back then it was, you know, small, it's like a
little catamaran or a little dinghy, a pacer, used to just love being out there
on the water. And, you know, I think, you know, as, as, as hopefully in time,
my kids may well have grandkids as well.
It's something I'd love to do with them as well.
Fantastic. And that is our time up.
Damien, I really loved your advice about putting more feathers on your wings,
broadening your horizon, stepping into the unknown and taking chances, because
that is when you get to learn and you are more likely to acquire new skills.
I love the way that you really see the need to decompress on the weekends
because life is long, jobs are long, and you have to maintain the energy so that
you are the most effective person that you can be in your job.
And I also really liked the way that you think about the organisation and it is
shaped by its people and you really need to get the right group of people together.
So thank you so much for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
It's been a delight.
Right. Thank you, Sally.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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This podcast was hosted by me, Sally Patten, and produced by Lapfan and
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Our head of podcast is Lapfan and the head of premium content is Fiona Bufini.
The Australian Financial Review.