It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself, it matters how others perceive you.
And that feedback I could use and I could apply for the rest of my career, that was
incredibly different.
Within two years I got two completely different pieces of feedback and one made no difference
It just meant that I did the same thing and was in the same situation, failed again the
And the second piece of feedback I could apply and it changed the path of my career.
Hi, I'm Sally Patton, editor of BOSS from the Australian Financial Review and welcome
to 15 Minutes with the BOSS, a podcast about success and failure and everything in between
and along the way we're hoping to get some great advice from our leaders.
My guest today is Adam Poeck, the chief executive of Deloitte in Australia.
Hi, Adam, lovely to see you, thank you so much for coming in.
It's great to be here, Sally.
Now Adam, you're the CEO of Deloitte in Australia, Deloitte being a professional services firm.
You have locally 13,000 employees, about 1,000 partners and last year you recorded a revenue
13,000 employees, that's quite a few people under your watch, do you think about that
I think about that every day, I think that's your ultimate responsibility as a leader is
to ensure that the people that are under your care in a sense as an employer are looked
after, they have jobs, they have futures, you're investing in them appropriately, you're
getting the most out of them.
So yeah, it's probably one of the first things you think about every night before you go
Yeah, interesting.
Okay, we haven't got very much time, let's start the clock right now.
So Adam, my first question is about your morning routine, what time do you get out of bed,
Look, to be honest, this job, there is no routine.
Every day is completely different, I tend to start around about seven.
Look at today, got up at seven, got myself ready, went into the office, presented to
a whole bunch of partners, jumped on a plane up here to see you, so then clients this
afternoon will have another partner presentation in Sydney later on today, then see some global
leaders and jump on the last flight home back to Melbourne tonight, getting home, I don't
And that's a day, the only routine I would have in a day consistently is I try to build
enough time to think at the start of the day, so I want 30, 60 minutes where I can think,
I can look at the overnight news, I can reflect on what's ahead of me that day, prepare appropriately
for the day, that's the only real part of the routine I would build in.
So do you try and do that as soon as you get up at seven o'clock?
If I've got a presentation, I actually close my eyes and run through a presentation whilst
still in bed, but then I might go for a walk, I'll go into the study, I want to look at
the news, I want to just see what's coming overnight.
These sort of roles, you can't be 24 hours behind on the news cycle, and then you look
at the day ahead, today I had an interview with you, so okay, that's interesting, so
what are some of the key points or questions that might come up?
So you just start to prepare for the day.
So you really try and build that 60 to 90 minutes of sort of thinking time first thing
Yeah, and I don't take any meetings before midday on a Monday, I actually look at things
in terms of a week and I prepare my week, so I refuse to have a meeting before midday
on a Monday, so I've got time to look at that week, think, prepare for the week ahead, and
then each day try to build in enough thinking time.
That was a key lesson I learned from a mentor many years ago.
When did you first start doing that, having morning free Mondays?
As soon as I became CEO, I was an Asia pack and global role before I was traveling all
the time, but when it came to this role, I looked at it in the complexities role and
said, what are some things I'm going to change?
And I said, I need time to think.
From day one, I told all my partners and everybody knows I don't get a meeting before
midday on a Monday so that I can I can think, prepare for the week and make sure I hit the
week running by the time things start.
And are you tempted to do that on other days of the week too, to build an even more thinking
time, or is that sufficient?
No, every single day, as I said, I'll build in 30, 60 minutes every single day.
And are you a breakfast kind of guy?
No, I don't drink coffee.
I don't really eat breakfast too much.
So I work, I get up and I think and go once my brain starts.
That's it. The day started.
I want to take advantage of that.
OK, my next question is about a pivotal moment in your career.
Was there some point in your career which really changed the trajectory of what you
were doing or changed you in some major way?
There were two moments.
One was mid 90s, 1995, I was about 29 years old.
I went over to the US for two years on a secondment with my wife and a 13 month old
baby. It wasn't easy.
We had a second child. We were over there.
So two young kids in a small apartment in a city on the other side of the world.
Who were you working for at the time?
Deloitte. But it completely changed my perspective of the world, gave me a global
perspective. It took me out of my comfort zone and also gave me the confidence to
know that I could succeed in a totally unfamiliar environment, which I've taken
back as well. So that was number one.
The second was I ran for Deloitte CEO in the back end of 2014.
I came second. It was very visible, very visible in the media, very visible
internally. And then going through that process and failing very, very publicly
in some ways and then learning how to carry yourself with grace, how to regroup,
show resilience, back yourself, give yourself time to take on new opportunities.
And look, here we are 10 years later, I'm in that particular role.
I came back. Strangely enough, I'm now the CEO of Deloitte Australia.
But there are two, I look back, pivotal moments in my career.
Why do you think you failed?
Well, it probably comes back to a number of things.
It'll come back to one of the most important lessons in life is how I was
perceived as a leader.
So I failed to make partner twice.
So I got through the third time.
So I failed plenty of times.
And it's interesting.
You usually get feedback when you fail.
Just keep doing what you're doing.
You're doing a good job. Just keep doing what you're doing.
Now, that is BS feedback because you always, every human needs to improve.
I need to keep growing and learning as a CEO every single day in my role.
So someone tells you you're doing fine and you don't need to do anything else.
There's the worst possible piece of feedback and advice you can ever get.
You should be asking what else can I do?
And as I said to you before, how am I perceived?
The second year, though, I failed to make partner.
I kept asking why, why, why, why?
And eventually I got that, that you are perceived as a larrikin, as a lad.
You have the gravitas.
And then we started to talk about feedback.
I go, what can I do to change that?
That perception and that feedback I could use, I could apply for the rest of my career.
That was incredibly different.
Within two years, the same point in my career, I got two completely different
pieces of feedback and one made no difference whatsoever.
It just meant that I did the same thing and was in the same situation,
failed again the following year.
And the second piece of feedback I could apply and it changed the path of my career.
And how did you change that perception?
I'm still a larrikin. You can't you can't take that out of someone.
You still like a joke and all those sort of things.
But knowing the situation, being situationally appropriate,
knowing the situation you're in, how you want to carry yourself.
So what I've always done for a long time, and particularly since that time,
I've written down two or three words.
How would I like to come across in this particular setting?
Is it calm? Is it is it thoughtful? Is it inspirational?
Is it, you know, choosing words that actually help frame your focus
and your mindset as you go into a forum.
And so it's appropriate for that.
So situational appropriateness is something I learned.
There were times to to muck around and have a joke and have a beer.
But there are other times when you needed to put on, you know,
a different leadership persona.
So do you think about that every time you go into a forum or a meeting?
Like what are the two or three things or words that I want to use
to describe my behaviour in that meeting?
Yeah, it's a it's a discipline for me now.
Sit down, what are two or three words and single words
that I would like to come across as part in this meeting on this forum.
After every meeting, after every presentation I present all the time,
I always give myself a rating out of 10.
That's also discipline that's been instilled in me.
And so what could I have improved?
How could I better engage the audience?
Was there something I could have done better?
They're the sort of lessons I learnt as you go through experiences
like failing to get roles through your career.
They're big life lessons, actually, aren't they?
So, Adam, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
I've been given plenty of advice along the way.
But the number one piece of advice was actually along the theme
I've just spoken about.
It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself in life.
It matters how others perceive you.
And it's the number one question.
I think everybody should ask the people around them, how am I perceived?
It takes courage.
But if you do that, you get gold back.
Interesting, because you can't really ask people directly, right?
What do you think of me? They're not going to tell you the truth.
It's got to be done as some sort of survey, I guess.
I know I think that question, that's why it takes courage.
You actually have to look someone in the eye and say, tell me how I'm perceived.
How do you perceive me?
OK, that is my number one lesson I learnt through that process,
because whispers in the background actually don't help you.
So you've got to find somebody you trust,
and you've also got to find people close to you.
And importantly, those not as close to you who observe you from a little distance.
Yeah. How do they perceive you?
Yeah. But I've found I've been able to get that feedback
when I make people comfortable, I let them know why I'm asking the question.
So I actually have to have the courage to ask it directly.
Interesting. That's really good advice.
So you don't have to do it through some sort of formal program.
You could actually go and just ask someone, explain why you're asking,
because you genuinely want some help and feedback from them.
All right, Adam, on that note, we're going to take a short break.
When we come back, we're going to open our famous chatterbox.
Welcome back to 15 Minutes with the Boss.
I'm here with Adam Poeck, the chief executive of Deloitte in Australia.
Now, Adam, this is our section, as hopefully by now, you know, called the chatterbox.
In front of you is this lovely, shiny brown box
inside which are probably 20 to 30 questions today,
all folded up on little bits of paper.
I'm going to invite you to have a bit of a forage around the box,
pick some, and I'm then going to ask you to answer them.
OK, this one. OK, here we go.
If you had time to learn a new skill, what would it be?
I'm a technologist all the way through my career.
So what I want to learn about, and I'm also an aerospace engineer back in the day.
So the three things that I want to learn more about right now,
artificial intelligence, quantum computing and space technology,
and even the combination of those, how they're going to come together.
So for me, that would be what I want to learn.
A new skill. I don't know, does that count as a skill, Sally?
I reckon that's it. Yeah, we can count that as a skill.
So on the AI front and generative AI,
to what extent do you use tools like chat GPT in your own work?
Yeah, no, I do. I'm learning more and more.
I think this is transformative.
This is this is where this technology gets real.
All of a sudden, you democratize it, gets in the hands of users like us
and using an English language interface.
So I'm using it for a whole range of things right now.
Well, I want to underpin all the services that we offer at Deloitte
with generative AI.
It is a huge burn to productivity.
I use it to research at the moment, mainly just do research on different topics
and cut through, find me sources and give me a different perspective.
So you almost use it like a Google search.
Yeah, more sophisticated, though.
We've got this training course called prompt like a boss.
How do you a prompted a chat GPT tool in a way?
If you want to make an Americana pizza, you can just do how to make Americana
put in Google or you can say the chat GPT.
I'm a master pizza chef.
Oh, I'm a specialist in Asian fusion cuisine.
I've got 20 people coming along and they've got a range of different
tastes that they come along and age groups say, how would I make a pizza?
What would that recipe be?
And if you do that, you get a completely different, a much more sophisticated
answer than you would ever would out of a Google search.
And that's just one example.
Sounds like a great course to do because it's a real skill
knowing what questions to ask.
Yeah. So prompt engineering is actually now a career.
So we've got some of our best, best and brightest, youngest practitioners
who now are just experts at prompt engineering.
They're the ones teaching us, actually.
That's what I find interesting.
It's not my generation teaching the next generation.
It's the youngest generation teaching us how to get the most out of these tools,
which I find fascinating. Yeah, interesting.
OK, next question. Have a forage.
Are there any sacrifices that you've had to make in order for you
to do your job as CEO?
Yeah, there's no doubt there's sacrifices.
And it's it's probably something that isn't spoken about too much,
but you do sacrifice your family time because you have to travel a lot.
Right. And it's time consuming.
I'm a lifetime platinum.
And anyone who understands what that means, I have traveled a lot
for 30, 40 years of my career.
So you do miss the first walk, the first words, you know,
you miss some graduations, you try to make that up as well as you can
on weekends and things like that.
But you do miss some pretty significant moments.
And so there are sacrifices.
And the trick is, how do you balance that?
And one of the one of the expressions that really resonates with me
is it's an All Blacks expression, play where your feet are.
And what that means is be present, where your feet are, be 100 percent present.
I'm with you now, Sally, I'm 100 percent present with you.
But when you're with your family, with your friends,
or you're doing one of your hobbies, be present in that particular moment.
And that's how I found a way to get through that and try to minimise
the sacrifices, because time wise, I can't give the time.
But you can give it back by being present.
I don't always do that as well as I should.
But that is something that I absolutely try to live by.
Because presumably your mind must wander off into work related areas.
How do you control your mind to make sure you do stay present all the time?
I doodle, which is a weird thing to say in meetings.
People don't understand this.
The reason I can stay with the conversation, my mind's
moving ahead at 100 miles an hour, a whole range of different directions.
So I doodle. What that does is enables me to focus 100
percent of the conversation in front of me.
So I've got a number of tricks like that, because if I'm not doing that,
my brain is instead of doodling, focusing on the doodle, it's off
thinking about something else.
So I actually take parts of my brain to occupy those
so I can focus 100 percent on what's in front of me.
So you're doodling and listening.
If I'm 100 percent engaged in a conversation, I don't doodle.
But if I know my mind's going to wander, it's a bit dry, you know,
I will doodle so I can make sure I give everybody 100 percent of my focus.
It's a great tool.
And people don't get that.
And it's quite disconcerting because it looks like I'm not paying attention.
Yeah. And then I'll ask a question and they'll understand
I'm paying attention 100 percent.
And I doodle so I can pay attention 100 percent.
I think, Adam, on that note, you have passed the chatterbox section.
I now have one last question that we ask everybody who comes into the studio.
And that is if we gave you 12 months off, you were unencumbered.
You could do anything you liked.
What would you do? And you can come back to your job afterwards.
If I had 12 months, the first thing I'd do is want to spend time
with the people I care about.
So I try to make sure I'm building time for friends,
the family and make sure I built that in.
There's a whole bunch of things on my bucket list.
Places I haven't been to, such as Turkey or Argentina or Jordan or Botswana.
Work on my golf game.
And finally, and I touched on a bit before, but I want to learn.
So I'm going to choose topics that really interest me and go hard after those.
And, you know, when I was growing up, I probably wanted to be an astronomer
at one point, either a professional cricketer.
So I'm going to I'm going to look at space.
And I'm teaching myself about then going back into Einstein's theory
and a whole range of things.
I know space travel, where space technology going to go.
That fascinates me and touched on before, you know, the field of AI
and quantum computing and how that might come together to solve
some of the world's most important problems.
So on the space travel front, where do you think as a globe we're headed with that?
It's going to be fascinating.
It's probably two levels to that one.
I do think we'll get to Mars.
I'd love to see, you know, a person on the moon again.
It's extraordinary to me.
Very early on in my lifetime, we put a person on the moon.
And here we are 50 odd years later.
We still haven't we haven't tackled it again.
Fifty five years later.
I think that's extraordinary to me.
So I think getting to the moon, but getting to Mars, I think,
is something that's fascinating and learning about space.
But I think there's another paradigm out there.
I think there is a different way we will learn.
We have to learn to travel beyond our solar system at some point.
And, you know, walk mechanics and a whole range of things.
And that's the thing I'm fascinated in is in 100 years time,
we have to be thinking about beyond our our own world.
Hopefully we save our world from an environmental point of view,
but we have to be thinking how we travel further.
And so there are a couple of things I'm watching Mars
and I'm watching, you know, broader outside solar system travel over time.
That is kind of mind boggling, but I take your point.
And that is our 15 minutes up.
Adam, I've loved hearing about the importance of perception by other people.
I love how you have recovered from failure
more than once and how the way you have bounced back.
I love your interest in artificial intelligence
and what you're doing at Deloitte to enable people to use chat GPT and the like.
Your interest in space travel is great.
And thank you so much for not having to doodle
while you've been talking to me this morning.
And thank you so much again for allowing us to spend 15 minutes with the boss.
Oh, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you very much, Sally.
And thank you to everyone for listening.
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The Australian Financial Review.